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  1. - Top - End - #151
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    So I would be Red with Blue and Black.

    As for planes, I can imagine five Outer Planes--one for each color, or fifteen--one for the good, neutral and evil aspects of each color.

    Red could have Far Realms-y, lovecraftian Chaos elements to it, with lot of volcanoes. Blue would be a lagoon full of scientist mermaids! Black might be like the Swamp of Sadness from The Neverending Story. Green would just have to be a Great Forest, and White a perfectly square Chessboard Plain.
    Cthulhu fhtagn R'lyeh!
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    My (suddenly acquired) Build Team and I are busy with cosmology even now, ya'll ^_^


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    I happily announce we have named each plane in our cosmology, and assigned them a Sobriquet. Spoilered for length.

    Spoiler
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    Conflicted Planes
    Nozdar, the plane of Righteous Torment. Primary White, Secondary Black and Red
    Liros, the plane of Endless Searches. Primary Blue, Secondary Red and Green
    Anroi, the plane of Meted Entropy. Primary Black, Secondary White and Green
    Kaldor, the plane of Checked Impulse. Primary Red, Secondary Blue and White
    Garon, the plane of Discordant Harmony. Primary Green, Secondary Black and Blue

    Complete Planes
    Lyria, the plane of Ordered Cadence. Primary White, Secondary Blue and Green
    Dondi, the plane of Gilded Edges. Primary Blue, Secondary White and Black
    Jusia, the plane of Shattered Justice. Primary Black, Secondary Red and Blue
    Vilon, the plane of Burning Rebirth. Primary Red, Secondary Green and Black
    Nara, the plane of Natural Majesty. Primary Green, Secondary Red and White

    Domineering Planes
    Merisk, the plane of Neverending Harvest. Primary White, Secondary Green and Black
    Pheix, the plane of Perfect Mediation. Primary White, Secondary Blue and Red
    Fris, the plane of Asserted Dominance. Primary Blue, Secondary Black and Green
    Engla, the plane of Imperial Thought. Primary Blue, Secondary White and Red
    Venc, the plane of Forbidden Secrets. Primary Black, Secondary Blue and Green
    Daran, the plane of Bloodied Battlements. Primary Black, Secondary Red and White
    Bazd, the plane of Primordial Forms. Primary Red, Secondary Green and Blue
    Sordan, the Plane of Bloody Altars. Primary Red, Secondary Black and White
    Dawi, the plane of Evolved Survival. Primary Green, Secondary Red and Blue
    Gondil, the plane of Natural Law. Primary Green, Secondary White and Black

    Contended Planes
    Nisak, the plane of Eternal Vigilance. Primary White, Secondary Blue and Black
    Plesk, the plane of Inevitable Conflicts. Primary White, Secondary Green and Red
    Ivil, the plane of Fathomless Wisdom. Primary Blue, Secondary White and Green
    Mada, the plane of Unbound Genius. Primary Blue, Secondary Black and Red
    Haror, the plane of Forced Brotherhood. Primary Black, Secondary Blue and White
    Karia, the plane of Reluctant Glory. Primary Black, Secondary Red and Green
    Srotta, the plane of Leashed Hatred. Primary Red, Secondary Black and Blue
    Vena, the plane of Invisible Chains. Primary Red, Secondary Green and White
    Kalos, the plane of Unnatural Selection. Primary Green, Secondary White and Blue
    Atna, the plane of Warring Fates. Primary Green, Secondary Red and Black

    Harmonic Planes
    Romna, the plane of Aqueducts. Primary White, Secondary Blue
    Comys, the plane of Settlement. Primary White, Secondary Green
    Inar, the plane of Plans. Primary Blue, Secondary White
    Haved, the plane of Lore. Primary Blue, Secondary Black
    Gerad, the plane of Ambition. Primary Black, Secondary Blue
    Idival, the plane of Self. Primary Black, Secondary Red
    Pasir, the plane of Hedonism. Primary Red, Secondary Black
    Marix, the plane of Anarchy. Primary Red, Secondary Green
    Gigon, the plane of Growth. Primary Green, Secondary Red
    Medar, the plane of Nurturing. Primary Green, Secondary White

    Disharmonic Planes
    Holt, the plane of Tyranny. Primary White, Secondary Black
    Knit, the plane of Propaganda. Primary White, Secondary Red
    Natol, the plane of Sabotage. Primary Blue, Secondary Red
    Sil, the plane of Progress. Primary Blue, Secondary Green
    Horos, the plane of Armies. Primary Black, Secondary White
    Ansen, the plane of Aging. Primary Black, Secondary Green
    Eos, the plane of Love. Primary Red, Secondary White
    Xanos, the plane of Gambits. Primary Red, Secondary Blue
    Bada, the plane of Enlightenment. Primary Green, Secondary Blue
    Beit, the plane of Predation. Primary Green, Secondary Black

    Perfect Planes
    Odan, the plane of Order. Monocolor White
    Sian, the plane of Change. Monocolor Blue
    Gorn, the plane of Entropy. Monocolor Black
    Mont, the plane of Chaos. Monocolor Red
    Apel, the plane of Life. Monocolor Green

    Colorless Planes
    Prima, the plane of Mortals.
    Astra, the plane of Travel.


    Edit: Note that not all of these have been granted Gareth's official stamp of approval. Edits can and likely will be made.
    Last edited by InaVegt; 2011-01-03 at 03:42 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    You've got two "planes of Progress" in there.
    Mechanics should reflect flavor. Always.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Quote Originally Posted by GnomeWorks View Post
    You've got two "planes of Progress" in there.
    Whoops, that was a copy error. Fix'd.
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Glad to see how the rest of the names came out. I'd be happy to help work out more of the themes to some of the planes, maybe even do a few right-us myself.
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    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.


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  7. - Top - End - #157
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Quote Originally Posted by InaVegt View Post
    Whoops, that was a copy error. Fix'd.
    Much better.
    Mechanics should reflect flavor. Always.
    Journey: The journey of a thousand steps begins beneath your feet... (WIP)

  8. - Top - End - #158
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    A full list of names of your build time would be useful to know.
    On balance: Just because you don't agree with the level of balance doesn't mean that others cannot. While balance is objective, which balance is being aimed at is subjective.

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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    The Conflicted Planes
    Note that these are the short versions of the planes, and while containing enough detail to play, are far from the detail planned for the final product.

    Nozdar, the plane of Righteous Torment.
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    Nozdar is dominated by infinite monarchies. Each has a strict yet clear legal code. These monarchies don't see eye to eye, however, vehemently disagreeing upon their respective differences, no matter how subtle.

    It is for this reason this plane is physically dominated by heavy fortifications, castles, walls, towers. All made out of perfect stone. And between those fortifications armies march, soldiers led to battle by knights in shining armor.

    In between the borders of these monarchies are the monasteries of the Justicars. Great fortified monasteries with strong barred gates. Prevented from assault by the natives by treaties that date back to the dawn of time.

    Inside these monasteries are those who have been sent for punishment. Whether they were dissidents to their own monarchy, enemy soldiers captured, or people sent there from other planes, they are here for eternal torture.

    The Justicars are dedicated and powerful, knowing ways to torture a soul even after the body has passed on. They are unrelenting in their torture, believing that every single being sent for punishment by them must have committed some kind of terrible crime.

    Traits
    Primary White, Secondary Black and Red
    Normal Gravity.
    Normal Time.
    Infinite.
    Alterable Morphic.

    Special Rules
    Targets of an Imprisonment spell cast anywhere in the multiverse are sent to a Justicar Monastery, rather than deep underground.


    Liros, the plane of Endless Searches.
    Spoiler
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    Liros is an infinite library, its books containing everything that is, was, shall, and can be known. It is therefor a shame that it is so difficult to find what one is looking for.

    The plane shifts around when nobody is looking. Just as you leave a corridor behind, a bookcase shifts to block the way back. Just as you leaf through a book, the bookcase behind you shifts to reveal a new pathway.

    Fate itself conspires against the seeker of knowledge. That bookcase that just shifted away had the answer you were looking for, but now it is somewhere else inside Liros entirely. Or perhaps you find an answer, but the rules of physics have changed subtly while you were looking, leaving the answer ineffective.

    And if you manage to find the book with the answer inside despite all this, the other books start flinging themselves at you in a raging fit, in the hope that you'll drop the book and take your eyes off of it. At which point it promptly disappears.

    While searching, a subtle tune fills the air, played by instruments that can never be seen, never be found. Its as though its emitted by the plane itself. The music is haunting, and seems to be taunting the seeker.

    Occasionally, the music changes. This signifies major changes to the landscape of Liros. Usually this happens when a seeker was particularly close to finding the answer they seek.

    As inorganic as it is, Liros is not without its inhabitants. Librarians and Guides, usually both at the same time, inhabit this plane. While even they are near-incapable of finding answers, they know how to travel the plane, and have fast amounts of wisdom to entertain the seekers with.

    Traits
    Primary Blue, Secondary Red and Green
    Normal Gravity.
    Normal Time.
    Infinite.
    Highly Morphic.

    Special Rules
    Those coming to this plane to seek an answer must make a will safe each day (DC 10+amount of days spent here.) If they fail, they become engrossed in their search, never ceasing until they have done the near impossible... found their answer.


    Anroi, the plane of Meted Entropy.
    Spoiler
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    Life is abundant in Anroi. Too much so. Its inhabitants wage a constant yet careful war to keep life in check. For to not do so means their villages and cities will be overrun and destroyed.

    Sadly, they can't just cut down or kill what they can find outside their settlements. For to do so means they are likely to kill vital pieces of the environment which will reverse the situation temporarily.

    Starvation is the result of such a reversed situation, and while those never last long, they last long enough to cause the death of many, crippling a settlement for years to come.

    Even killing a single plant, if the wrong one is chosen, can have this result. For that plant might have played a big part in the grand scheme, and only the small parts of the scheme can be safely disrupted.

    As such, even as they kill and destroy the nature outside their settlement's borders, they never kill what they don't believe was fated to die by their hands, for to mess with those fates is to cause untold death and destruction.

    Traits
    Primary Black, Secondary White and Green
    Normal Gravity.
    Normal Time.
    Infinite.
    Highly Morphic.

    Special Rules
    Enhanced Magic: Spells that cause growth of plants, animals, or vermin in any way are considered to be maximized and extended.


    Kaldor, the plane of Checked Impulse.
    Spoiler
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    Kaldor hates its inhabitants. The plane's natural penchant for order and preparation makes the free-willed inhabitants the plane's natural enemies. This emotion is so fierce, so powerful, that it overcomes even that natural penchant, and turns the place in a plane as chaotic as its inhabitants.

    As such, the plane uses magic to create illusions, its got living agents that seek to lure the natives out and get them into Kaldor's many dark traps. The most prominent are the Witches of the Wastes, extensions of Kaldor itself, their siren songs enthrall. When a hapless soul is caught by their song, they are devoured by such a Witch, never to return back to their safe havens.

    Because the inhabitants have their Utopian havens. Protected from Kaldor by enchanted domes that cap their cities, the inhabitants pool their knowledge to create orderly defenses. So that the inhabitants of Kaldor's domed cities may live in utter freedom to do as they wish, whether that is song and dance, outright hedonism, or something else entirely.

    Too bad that no plants will grow inside the domes. The occasional hunting and gathering party is required to bring food to the domes. Often times, these parties are taken by Kaldor in part or in full. Those who return with food are lauded as heroes, and those who did not are mourned as the same.

    Traits
    Primary Red, Secondary Blue and White
    Normal Gravity.
    Normal Time.
    Infinite.
    Highly Morphic.
    Sentient

    Special Rules
    Besides the monstrous inhabitants of Kaldor, Kaldor is capable of casting major image whenever it likes, and without restraints on area or duration. The Will save DC to disbelief these is DC 25, or DC 20 within five hundred feet of a domed city. Kaldor is incapable of casting these inside the domed cities.


    Garon, the plane of Discordant Harmony.
    Spoiler
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    Peace and Harmony are abundant on Garon, its inhabitants helping out one another when help is needed. Thriving communities coexist with abundant natural resources, and with abundant spirits of malice.

    These spirits take their sweet time to corrupt the inhabitants of Garon. Researching the weaknesses in their mental state before striking. If at first they don't succeed, they keep on trying and trying until they do succeed.

    And that's when the inhabitants crack. Most do, eventually. They turn insane, and most start striking out against the harmony that fills their plane, killing or torturing others because they are no longer a part of the plane's harmonic society. They never live long, soon being killed by those yet sane.

    A few of those who become corrupted are more lucky, or less, depending on who you ask. Instead of killing and torturing at random, they attempt to insert themselves at positions of power, and if they succeed, they use that power to disrupt harmony.

    They too, tend to be caught. But their effects are more severe, more insidious. More damaging to the harmonic society. Even so, they too are killed, so they won't disrupt harmony any further.

    Traits
    Primary Green, Secondary Black and Blue
    Normal Gravity.
    Normal Time.
    Infinite.
    Alterable Morphic.

    Special Rules
    Those travelling through or living in this plane must make a will save each year (DC 10+amount of years spent here.) If they fail, they become insane, and start actively disrupting the harmony of Garon.
    Last edited by InaVegt; 2011-01-05 at 02:52 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Lix Lorn's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    I really like Kaldor.
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  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Liros sounds like home to me. (all to quite literally. Since 69% of my time is spent online... But it's very different all the same)
    Any sort of settlement or city would dissapear pretty fast there. you couldn't rely on having any friends to help you out of a jam, because they'd get just as lost as you, and infinitely separated. Putting an adventuring party into Liros would be like railroading them into inescapable separate prison cells.
    I luv it. Can I live there?
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  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    I really like Kaldor.
    Nifty - I like Kaldor too. Any particular reason you like it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    I like the idealogy, mainly. Freedom above most things, hedonism... good fun. xD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    You know what would be a useful addition to this system? "Colorful Words" a.k.a. the words of creation from the Book of Exalted Deeds or the dark speech from the numerous vile books that WotC put out.

    Basically, I think it would work like this. You would first choose to get the minor words feat which gives you the powers of your primary and secondary colors. Then, if you want, you may take a second feat for the major words which only gives the power for your primary color.

    The minor colorful words would not be damaging to your body when said, but the major words should probably be. Hopefully whoever makes them creates them at tier 3 level (or rogue balance point).
    On balance: Just because you don't agree with the level of balance doesn't mean that others cannot. While balance is objective, which balance is being aimed at is subjective.

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  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    One thing I'd add to this are "positive" and "negative" archetypes for each color. Each one has a positive (good, building, worthy, moral) aspect, and each has a negative (bad, evil, destructive) aspect. Let me give examples for each color:

    Red: Individual freedom (positive), blind and impulsive destruction (negative)
    Green: Harmony, tranquility, growth (positive), cancerous, diseases, ignorance, instinct over all, going too far with naturalness over advancement (negative)
    Blue: Inquiring, curious, knowledgeable (positive), robotic, removed, distant, disconnected from emotions (negative)
    White: Well-being, community, inner strength (positive), oppression, squashing that which is unique (negative)
    Black: Individuality, believing that everyone should be able to be individual, working towards bettering oneself while respecting the individuality of others (positive), selfishness, corruption, working only for oneself, exploiting others (negative)

    Thus, you would have a three-dimensional "wheel"; two dimensions are the usual wheel, and then each part can have a positive or negative aspect. As you can see, these are still very broad concepts, but it allows more diversity within the wheel rather than clumping everything into one of the colors and having to have people explain it.

    For example, a green (positive) // red (negative) person might be one who respects nature, believes in harmony, and wants to nurture natural growth, yet becomes uncontrollable and destructive when the nature is hurt.

    A red (positive) // black (positive) person might be one who believes that everyone should be free to do as they please as long as it doesn't harm others, and that people should follow their passions in what will make them happy.

    A white (positive) // blue (negative) person might be a scholar (judge, lawyer?) who believes that what they do is good for the whole, yet is unresponsive emotionally and has distanced themselves from others in their attempt towards being impartial, harming their own social relations in pursuit of their perceived duty towards the community.

    Edit: In short, the main difference here is the ability to easily delineate specific character flaws that can be used to deepen a character and make them more "real". For example, a DM might require that each character have at least one negative archetype from any color to prevent Mary Sues or others who are two-dimensional and have no flaws and the like.
    Last edited by GhostwheelZ; 2011-01-16 at 07:23 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Book Wyrm's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Not that I want to resurrect the arguments about the false dichotomies and other stuff since they seem to have finally died out, but I just wanted to clarify some of the concepts that people seem to be misinterpreting.

    Amoral is not the same as immoral. Immoral is the opposite of moral, amoral actually means to disregard moral questions altogether. Thus black is not equatable to evil. Evil is immoral in the traditional DnD sense of the term. Black is more equatable to neutral since it is neither good nor evil. That said, someone on the side of "good" will often look at the actions of an amoral person as evil since they fail to consider anyone else but themselves, thus the source of conflict between White and Black.

    Altruism is not at all synonymous with self interest. The definition of altruism is the unselfish concern for the welfare of others at the expense of ones own welfare. Altruism is the exact opposite of self interest. Dictionary.com gives the example of an animal giving a warning cry since it alerts the group to the danger of a predator but also alerts the predator to the location of the individual.

    My interpretation of pure Blue is knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Thus the wizard who studies magic for purely academic purposes is blue, but the wizard who only studies magic for the purpose of benefiting himself is Black with maybe secondary Blue characteristics.

    I don't like assigning community to White though. A community that cares about their own interests at the expense of another community would be Black not White. I think its best if the concepts can be applied on both the individual level and the large scale.

    What I like most about this system is that it does away with traditional Western dualistic morality. The colors don't have clear opposites like good is to evil and law is to chaos. It allows you to characterize a traditional orc settlement (brutal, chaotic, savage, warlike, opposed to the interests of elves, humans, and dwarves, etc) without labeling them all "evil" as the traditional 9 alignment system does. Good and evil and law and chaos can still exist but everything isn't inherently one or the other. Two orcs can both be Red/Green even though one eats babies for breakfast and the other doesn't.

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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wyrm View Post
    Not that I want to resurrect the arguments about the false dichotomies and other stuff since they seem to have finally died out, but I just wanted to clarify some of the concepts that people seem to be misinterpreting.

    Amoral is not the same as immoral. Immoral is the opposite of moral, amoral actually means to disregard moral questions altogether. Thus black is not equatable to evil. Evil is immoral in the traditional DnD sense of the term. Black is more equatable to neutral since it is neither good nor evil. That said, someone on the side of "good" will often look at the actions of an amoral person as evil since they fail to consider anyone else but themselves, thus the source of conflict between White and Black.

    Altruism is not at all synonymous with self interest. The definition of altruism is the unselfish concern for the welfare of others at the expense of ones own welfare. Altruism is the exact opposite of self interest. Dictionary.com gives the example of an animal giving a warning cry since it alerts the group to the danger of a predator but also alerts the predator to the location of the individual.

    My interpretation of pure Blue is knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Thus the wizard who studies magic for purely academic purposes is blue, but the wizard who only studies magic for the purpose of benefiting himself is Black with maybe secondary Blue characteristics.

    I don't like assigning community to White though. A community that cares about their own interests at the expense of another community would be Black not White. I think its best if the concepts can be applied on both the individual level and the large scale.

    What I like most about this system is that it does away with traditional Western dualistic morality. The colors don't have clear opposites like good is to evil and law is to chaos. It allows you to characterize a traditional orc settlement (brutal, chaotic, savage, warlike, opposed to the interests of elves, humans, and dwarves, etc) without labeling them all "evil" as the traditional 9 alignment system does. Good and evil and law and chaos can still exist but everything isn't inherently one or the other. Two orcs can both be Red/Green even though one eats babies for breakfast and the other doesn't.
    I think that equating White to the community works fine. It's the ultimate opposite of the selfish aspect of black, or very nearly. An example of a community that is White primary but secondary Black would be the Borg. The individual is subsumed to the point where he doesn't exist, only the collective exists. However, they constantly attempt to assimilate more species and technologies, they seek power, and they seek it selfishly, at the expense of those who are not the collective. Why are they White primary? Because they seek perfection and pure order, and they use orderly means to do it, their goal is White, and they use both White and Black means to reach it. They aren't terribly creative either, and have no emotion, leaving Red as a solid opposite, another reason.
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  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Quote Originally Posted by Havvy View Post
    You know what would be a useful addition to this system? "Colorful Words" a.k.a. the words of creation from the Book of Exalted Deeds or the dark speech from the numerous vile books that WotC put out.

    Basically, I think it would work like this. You would first choose to get the minor words feat which gives you the powers of your primary and secondary colors. Then, if you want, you may take a second feat for the major words which only gives the power for your primary color.

    The minor colorful words would not be damaging to your body when said, but the major words should probably be. Hopefully whoever makes them creates them at tier 3 level (or rogue balance point).
    If you make it, we will review it. Right now, the cosmology project is taking precedance over feats, PrCs, and other bonus content.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostwheelZ View Post
    One thing I'd add to this are "positive" and "negative" archetypes for each color. Each one has a positive (good, building, worthy, moral) aspect, and each has a negative (bad, evil, destructive) aspect. Let me give examples for each color:
    Stop. Re-read the already-available content. You see all that text? That is more than enough text. What you're suggesting should be incorporated as part of roleplaying your character, and is a needless level of detail for the main system. I appreciate the enthusiasm, though!


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wyrm View Post
    I don't like assigning community to White though. A community that cares about their own interests at the expense of another community would be Black not White. I think its best if the concepts can be applied on both the individual level and the large scale.
    Actually a good example (and IIRC an actually mentioned one on the M:tG site) of White/Black would be a small community or oligarchy, where the small community acts as the community for white and the individual for black. I.e. a group of people who acts white towards each other, and black towards the rest of the world, but with the interests of the group superseding the interests of the individual.
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  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rion View Post
    Actually a good example (and IIRC an actually mentioned one on the M:tG site) of White/Black would be a small community or oligarchy, where the small community acts as the community for white and the individual for black. I.e. a group of people who acts white towards each other, and black towards the rest of the world, but with the interests of the group superseding the interests of the individual.
    As an alternate to this, I would even suggest that most modern day civilisations are Black primary, and White and Red secondary. Primary represents the ideology, and capitalism is best represented by Black. And we act on this ideology by forming structured nations in which we can work with this.
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  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Quote Originally Posted by IcarusWings View Post
    As an alternate to this, I would even suggest that most modern day civilisations are Black primary, and White and Red secondary. Primary represents the ideology, and capitalism is best represented by Black. And we act on this ideology by forming structured nations in which we can work with this.
    Well, I think a Modern Democracy, like, say, the US, is Red primary, with White and Black. The purpose of the government is supposed to be to protect the freedoms of the people. They use order to do that, as well as raw power. The individualistic goals of the nation are more Red than Black.
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  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Bump, for great justice and continued work!


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Bump, for great justice and continued work!
    Can I get a heck yeah for great justice and continued work?! Heck yeah!

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  24. - Top - End - #174
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    I am SO glad I stumbled across this! The alignment system in D&D always bugged me, because your aligment depends not on how you act, or how you view yourself, but how the world/society/the pantheon sees you

    For example, a warrior who seeks to overthrow a corrupt king could be seen as either Lawful or Chaotic, based on the point of view of an observer. But the Alignment Grid constrains you to one or the other, with no room for difference of opinion regarding your motivations and goals. Similarly, a Barbarian might come from a tribe with an extensive oral history, a complex language, an a rigidly-defined caste system, but he still counts as Chaotic because he's "uncivilized."

    This new alignment system solves many (maybe all?) of the problems I had with the old system, by allowing characters to self-determine their alignments. If you feel like you're a person ruled by your emotions, then you're Red, even if another member of your party sees you as reserved and sullen. The choice is given to the player, not imposed on them by the DM, or cultural consensus.

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Just pointing out, it is your decision what your alignment is. Sounds more like a problem with your DM/players to me.

    ...but maybe that's just me.
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Just pointing out, it is your decision what your alignment is. Sounds more like a problem with your DM/players to me.

    ...but maybe that's just me.
    You're probably right, but how many alignment debates rage just across this site? Or your own group has had? By changing the how alignments are done, maybe a few of these debates can be avoided in a group. At least that's part of the reason why I use this system.
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  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    This IS my alignment system.

    Even in games that don't use it.

    "What's your alignment?"

    "Red Green."

    "... What?"

  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Since I have no real need to say that a person is good or evil, and since the chaos/law dichotomy is entirely false, this is what I think about when adding an alignment to a person. Why? Because it works, in game and out. And that makes it a success. Sure, you can continue adding layers upon layers to it (see Ghostwheelz's suggestion for a good/bad side of each color), but at some point, you need it working. And IMO, it's a useful personality test after alignment is dealt with.
    On balance: Just because you don't agree with the level of balance doesn't mean that others cannot. While balance is objective, which balance is being aimed at is subjective.

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  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    You know, from now on my alignments blue-red, with maybe some black. I maybe chaotic neutral, but blue-red is more specific of how I am Chaotic Neutral.
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  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: [Alignment Replacement] The Color Wheel - Now With More Green!

    Quote Originally Posted by Havvy View Post
    Since I have no real need to say that a person is good or evil, and since the chaos/law dichotomy is entirely false, this is what I think about when adding an alignment to a person. Why? Because it works, in game and out. And that makes it a success. Sure, you can continue adding layers upon layers to it (see Ghostwheelz's suggestion for a good/bad side of each color), but at some point, you need it working. And IMO, it's a useful personality test after alignment is dealt with.
    The primary motivation behind my blurb is less as a codified mechanical system for alignment, and more as a way to flesh out characters. In all the games I've played over the years, most of the characters seem flat and very Mary Sue-ish. They don't really have any negative aspects. Each and every one is almost a zen Buddha who can't be manipulated or emotionally hurt, who never feels self-doubt, who doesn't ever act out of anger or have conflicting emotions that war in various directions, and rarely if ever fall prey to their darker emotions only to feel guild, regret, and sorrow afterwards.

    Adding the positive and negative descriptors could be a good way IMO to flesh out characters more fully. A DM can say, "pick at least one color, and choose primarily negative aspects from that color", and poof--you have deep, meaningful character flaws that make the characters far more like real people, far more three-dimensional rather than caricatures who can do no wrong and feel very fake in their perfection.

    Take it or leave it, figured I'd at least explain the reason for the above so it might make sense on one level.

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