Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XIV

[Amphetryon]

I wonder if we'd have gotten more contestants this go-round if folks knew ahead of time there would be four, rather than the customary two, trophies.

[true_shinken]

Well, the last few ICs didn't even get any trophies :/
I believe everyone will enjoy Jumilk's trophies, though. They feature a familiar face, after all.

Also, I've decided the next secret ingredient will be a martial class. \o/
And... no current tally yet? C'mon, OMGPonies. By now people already know about your spreadsheet ^^

[The Vorpal Tribble]

*mumble grumble*

Current Scores

Spoiler

Show

{table=head]Entry|

VT

|Amphetryon|WinWin|Final Score
Mich|

14.25

|

13.5

|

16

|

43.75

|
P. Vagabond|

15.5

|

12.5

|

15.25

|

43.25

|
Tsormal|

15

|

10

|

15

|

40

|
Santana |

16

|

10.5

|

13

|

39.5

|
Kestrel|

11.75

|

9

|

13

|

33.75

|
[/table]

[true_shinken]

Thanks for the tally, VT!

Well I believe it was alreayd pointed out, but since I got a few PMs about this, I'll make a note so that the last judge will know about it and maybe so people might discuss it:

1. Santana cannot actually bind 2 vestiges at once. His EBL is 9 only for determining which vestiges he can bind. For everything else, including how many vestiges he can bind at once, his EBL is 7. This is because Improved Binding only adds to your EBL for determining which vestiges you can bind.
2. As a spell with a range of touch, Polymorph is not a legal target for Persist Spell. Because of this, Santana only has access to the Secret Ingredient's class features for 8 minutes per casting. Including his base spells per day, bonus spell for high INT, and Exploit Vestige, Santana can still only use the Secret Ingredient for 32 minutes per day!

[WinWin]

I think polymorphing is clever, but impractical for most games. For a 5 minute (or half hour) workday it is a cool trick, but otherwise a hinderance in a campaign. I did like the concept, though I think it would have been better served by qualifying normally as opposed to qualifying via a spell.

Most of the utility of outsider polymorph is wasted on one form in my opinion, hence my comment that Firre would have been a better racial choice.

I may have more to say when I sober up. Only to happy to modify my scoring if I have overlooked or misinterpreted something. It looks as though it is going to be a tight finish.

[Grynning]

At work at the moment, but I will do my scoring as soon as I get home in 6 more hours.

[Akal Saris]

Amp made an interesting point in his judging - for a T4 class that supposedly lacks versatility, paladin is an extremely popular class in our Iron Chef competitions. Without counting, I would guess that a paladin build has been in nearly every competition so far (in part because I've used it a few times myself!).

What does that say about paladin? Is it better than JaronK gives it credit for in his tier system? Is it simply preference among a small set of optimizers? Is it because paladin is front-loaded, so it gives a lot of goodies from 1-6, before we start in on the special ingredient? Or maybe the sheer versatility of so many ACFs and so many variant paladins?

[Quietus]

I have a question - I'm likely to consider competing in the next Iron Chef round, if the secret ingredient catches my eye. When do they get posted? If I'd known ahead of time, I might have built up my Dread Pirate Roberts ... I'm actually regretting that I didn't submit it, because I think the combination of Dragonfire-inspired TWF with ranged touch ray and spell support would make for a versatile, if not super powerful, character.

[true_shinken]

Amp made an interesting point in his judging - for a T4 class that supposedly lacks versatility, paladin is an extremely popular class in our Iron Chef competitions. Without counting, I would guess that a paladin build has been in nearly every competition so far (in part because I've used it a few times myself!).

I believe even the Cancer Mage competition had a Paladin!

What does that say about paladin? Is it better than JaronK gives it credit for in his tier system? Is it simply preference among a small set of optimizers? Is it because paladin is front-loaded, so it gives a lot of goodies from 1-6, before we start in on the special ingredient? Or maybe the sheer versatility of so many ACFs and so many variant paladins?

It's the front-loading and the ACFs, I believe. We get a lot of Paladins, but usually as dips.

I have a question - I'm likely to consider competing in the next Iron Chef round, if the secret ingredient catches my eye. When do they get posted? If I'd known ahead of time, I might have built up my Dread Pirate Roberts ... I'm actually regretting that I didn't submit it, because I think the combination of Dragonfire-inspired TWF with ranged touch ray and spell support would make for a versatile, if not super powerful, character.

We'll have the next secret ingredient up when this contest wraps up - which I believe will be very soon, since the judges were very fast this time around.

I'm taking suggestions for the next secret ingredient, btw. I want a melee class, but you could always persuade me otherwise.

On the subject of Santana's rules disputes, I got feedback from the creator:

Your math is wrong. Anima mage is a full progression class for both binding and casting. Binder 4 + Anima Mage 5 means that I've got effective binder level of 9, not 7, with the ability to bind 5th level vestiges (as an 11th level binder).

Argh. When I first started the build, I was assuming I'd use Alter Self - but the Firre is 8 HD so I switched to a polymorph base. Oh well, maybe next time.

[Grynning]

Ok, judging done. I'm not going to spoiler mine since I'm the last to finish. I just skimmed some of the other judges stuff but I purposely didn't remember the scores to try to keep mine fresh. I liked the flavor of most of the entries, but damn, lots of rules wackiness in this contest. Good job to everyone once again, though, it was a pleasure.

This judging is dedicated to Amanda Palmer, my favorite IRL bard at the moment, who I got a +2 competence bonus from while typing this up.

Kestrel Hath:

Originality: 2.5

Paladin/Bard Devoted Performer is a fairly predictable build for this one, and nothing really jumped out at me. It's a very basic support/melee character, and the story was a little too short and generic to spice it up much.

Power: 3

Good synergy of abilities for the most part. The character basically covers the heal and melee support aspect of the bard quite well, though it suffers a lot in skill utility due to the large number of pally levels.

No spells known list for bard! Aaarrggghhh...please tell me what your bard is packing in that spell list, it could've given you a boost here.

Elegance: 3.5

Shenanigan-free, simple progression. I can't see anyone having a problem with the character per se, except that it needs more flavor.

Use of SotS: 2.5

You use it, sure, but you don't do a whole lot with it. No real combos pointed out, no real logical reason for the SotS levels over more bard or pally. I like it ok, but this character didn't make me want to try out the PrC. You need more effort to make something like Seeker of the Song really appealing.

SCORE:
Overall - 11.5
Average - 2.875


Primal Vagabond:

Originality: 3.5

Duskblade is an unusual entry to prestige bard, but it works well here, though using prestige bard was no surprise to help the weakened casting of the SI. The story is well done and helped me get into the idea of the character.

Power: 4

This character is fairly strong in melee and very playable at the low levels, and has enough to fall back on if the Seeker Songs aren't cutting it. Duskblade is a favorite of mine as a balance point for tier 3, and that's where I think this character falls for the most part, so you got the bump up to 4.

Elegance: 4

I like the way the build is put together, for the most part. I'm not really a huge fan of the Craven feat's flavor, but that's mutable (it's called "craven," and I for one wouldn't like a character who that word accurately described). I would have scored this even higher if you'd used the tables, they are much easier to read.

Use of SotS: 4

This character feels like it would be logical for them to go into this weird little "blaster bard" PrC, and you did work it into his origin story too (though it could've been developed a bit more). SotS fits in well here and contributes to the characters existing capabilities, so good job.

SCORE:
Overall - 15.5
Average - 3.875


Santana:

Originality: 4

I know we have two entries with the same trick to get into the class and the same LA +0 outsider race, but both threw me for a loop, and I won't dock either one for both having the same interesting idea. Also, AWESOME backstory, I liked reading that. Dragonborn is a very overused template, though, I deducted a bit for that.

Power: 3.5

I wanted to make this higher, but there are some illegal elements to the build, so the character wouldn't work quite as well as it should as presented. Still, it's a caster/binder for the first half of its career and when the SotS stuff is working, it works pretty well. You did point out some pretty cool ideas for using subvocalize too.

Elegance: 1.5

Unfortunately, I have to dock pretty heavily here. First, I'm not a fan of using temporary effects to qualify for things in the first place, and this one is pretty questionable, and of course, as addressed above, you can't persist polymorph, so for a lot of the day, you're not getting a lot of your class features. Additionally, while we discussed multiple interpretations of the Seeker of the Song's spell DC's, stacking ranks from different perform skills wasn't one of them, and I don't think any DM would let that fly. I gave this a 1.5 instead of a 1 because your story was so cool, though I didn't really get how binder fit in there.

Use of SotS: 2

While I could have marked down here again for the illegal elements of the build, I left it at 2, because you did put forth a very solid effort, and this character is very neat and fits the flavor of the class quite well. However, most of its abilities come from its entry classes and Anima Mage. Next time, get it as crunchy as it is fluffy and we'll eat it up, I'm sure.

SCORE:
Overall - 11
Average - 2.75



Mich J. Rana:

Originality: 4.5

Just like the entry above, yet so different. I like this guy a lot based on his backstory, he's like me in that he just wants to rock out and eat good food. Also, sent me googling for some of the stuff in this build....I mean, Ardent Dilletante, what the hell ass...

Power: 4

He's got spells, he can sorta melee, he's an outsider with polymorph. Seems like he could contribute quite well to a tier 3 party. Like some other entries, skills besides perform are neglected.

Elegance: 2

As I mentioned before, using polymorph to qualify is cheesy, and I'm not a fan. Also, lots of sources, and some damned obscure class levels. This would be hard to convince me to allow without some modification at my gaming table.

Use of SotS: 3

I like the idea of using the banishment song on yourself, I'd never thought of that, and definitely gives you a Seeker of the Song worth playing. Like the previous build though, the entry classes are really more the keystone than the SI here.

SCORE:
Overall - 13.5
Average - 3.375


Tsormal:

Originality: 4.5

A dragon worshipping, mage killing barbarian dude. Wasn't thinking I'd see that in this competition. That story was amazing, and bonus points for sticking to the rhyme pattern.

Power: 4

Pretty solid tier 3 entry into the class, he can fight, and actually has a decent shot at doing what he's supposed to do (killing casters).

Elegance: 2.5

I know you corrected the feat choice thing in the posts above, but still, double-check your build before submitting. I'm not opposed to taking favored enemy arcanists with the barbarian ACF, but some people might be. Jade Phoenix mage doesn't really fit here, I'd have liked to have seen something else, though I see why you did it.

Use of SotS: 4

Using the Seeker songs to go beat up wimpy mages is a pretty cool idea, I must admit. Nothing really takes away from using the primal music here, I liked this guy quite a bit.

SCORE:
Overall - 15
Average - 3.75

[Private-Prinny]

1. As a spell with a range of touch, Polymorph is not a legal target for Persist Spell.

Seriously?

I always thought Touch was a fixed range, since the range is independent of your CL. You learn something new every day, I guess.

[Amphetryon]

Amp made an interesting point in his judging - for a T4 class that supposedly lacks versatility, paladin is an extremely popular class in our Iron Chef competitions. Without counting, I would guess that a paladin build has been in nearly every competition so far (in part because I've used it a few times myself!).

What does that say about paladin? Is it better than JaronK gives it credit for in his tier system? Is it simply preference among a small set of optimizers? Is it because paladin is front-loaded, so it gives a lot of goodies from 1-6, before we start in on the special ingredient? Or maybe the sheer versatility of so many ACFs and so many variant paladins?

If I had to make a guess, I'd say it's a combination of the good saves you get from a small investment, coupled with a desire to do something 'unexpected' in an effort to snag some Originality. Note that some judges in past competitions have come out with criteria that indicated 'obscure' base classes like Totemist or Binder would not be sufficient on their own to count as original. It's possible, even probable, that at least a couple contestants figured that in with the fact that Paladin is generally under-appreciated outside of IC, and chose it for a sort of surprise factor.

The obvious issue with this strategy, to me, is that the surprise gets lessened considerably when it's repeated.

EDIT: The other reason I'd point to as likely to influence Paladin's popularity, is the need to make these (generally sub-par) Prestige Classes improve the overall build concept. If you've started your build off with a Specialist Wizard, it's usually hard to justify most of the PrCs featured in IC as anything other than taken for the sake of the contest. Paladins and Monks, which have limited benefits to them after 2nd level, get stronger with intelligent PrC usage in a way that many higher tier Base Classes to not.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Final Scores
{table=head]Entry|

VT

|Amphetryon|WinWin|Grynning|Final Score
Primal Vagabond|

15.5

|

12.5

|

15.25

|

15.5

|

58.75

|
Mich|

14.25

|

13.5

|

16

|

13.5

|

57.25

|
Tsormal|

15

|

10

|

15

|

15

|

55

|
Santana |

16

|

10.5

|

13

|

11

|

50.5

|
Kestrel|

11.75

|

9

|

13

|

11.5

|

45.25

|
[/table]

Gentleman, we have finished voting in less than 3 days. I believe that brings us dangerously close to being awesome.

*shakes each of your hands*

[OMG PONIES]

Thanks to all the judges for posting scores so quick! Granted, we still have to leave time for any disputes, but this round was a well-oiled machine.

[Grynning]

*returns handshake*
Thanks for compiling the scores VT.

By the way, I did want to say that though I gave Santana the lowest score in my judging, I feel like I should clarify that I did really like the concept and by no means thought the character was bad, it's just by my standards for this contest I couldn't give it higher elegance or use of the ingredient scores. The creator deserves an honorable mention for sure.

I really respect the chefs in this competition especially, because in this case, the SI was a really rough class to work with, even more so than Vigilante from the last one. Lots of bad editing, and just poor design overall really kind of sinks Seeker of the Song into nigh-uselessness, and I would homebrew my own version if someone ever really wanted to use it in a game of mine. This is like going on the real Iron Chef and getting lutefisk as your ingredient.

[Pechvarry]

I considered entering so I could make a character simply named One Man Band, who could play 3 songs at the same time + dance. He'd play his own 3-part melody, tap-dancing rhythm.

Regrettably, he was pretty much the opposite of optimization.

[Akal Saris]

Congrats to Primal and Mich! I thought all of the builds were excellent though :)

[WinWin]

congratulations everyone. I look forward to the reveal.

[true_shinken]

I was just about to make the reveal, but then a contestant asked to wait until Monday because he will have a few disputes.
Since we can't afford to put the wrong names in the trophies, let's just wait until this dispute issue clears up.

Congratulations on the judges for their lightspeed judging this time! It was the fastes I've ever seen. You guys are awesome.

About our honorable mention award, let's decide it by voting. PM me which contestand should get the prize and whoever gets more votes will get the crystal trophy (I've seen it and it's awesome).
I also saw Jumilk's judge badges and they are even more cool than I thought they would be.

[Amphetryon]

I was just about to make the reveal, but then a contestant asked to wait until Monday because he will have a few disputes.
Since we can't afford to put the wrong names in the trophies, let's just wait until this dispute issue clears up.

Congratulations on the judges for their lightspeed judging this time! It was the fastes I've ever seen. You guys are awesome.

Thanks.

Sadly, I think the size of the contestant pool had much to do with our blazing speed. The day after the builds were posted was also a holiday in the USA, which probably helped judges in America.

[Grynning]

Sadly, I think the size of the contestant pool had much to do with our blazing speed. The day after the builds were posted was also a holiday in the USA, which probably helped judges in America.

Holidays don't equate to days off for a lot of us, unfortunately. I was actually worried about getting mine done on time because I've still had work every day this week.

If there are any disputes about my scores, I'll be happy to field them, though I don't know how much it'll affect the final outcome.

[true_shinken]

Okay, a few rules disputes.
Vorpal Tribble:

Spoiler

Show

- Mich's background discusses his exposure to Seeker Music, though another entry was noted (and scored) as the only one to mention it.
- The explanation of Mich's Use of the Secret Ingredient score is a bit brief. Can you please elaborate on the reason he scored lower than a character that did not conplete the SI, especially when Mich had noted uses and combinations of every class feature (including the frustrating capstone).

Grynning

Spoiler

Show

- Mich doesn't use firre polymorph to qualify for the SI--he does that just fine on his own.
- You mentioned that Mich uses too many sources. However, the build itself only uses 9 sources (the same number as Markus/Primal)--MIC was included only for potential gear, which was not an essential part of the build. For consistency's sake, I would ask you to adjust your score.
The entry classes used provide only two things: bardic music/perform skills, and limited spellcasting to support the SI, which was the focus of the build.

I think that is all.

Seriously?

I always thought Touch was a fixed range, since the range is independent of your CL. You learn something new every day, I guess.

I thought that as well, but it is specifically adressed in the errata, I believe.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Spoiler

Show

Mich's background discusses his exposure to Seeker Music, though another entry was noted (and scored) as the only one to mention it.

Mentioning it was not a part of the score. My comment was a nod of appreciation.

However, still not entirely certain where Mich learned the music even after several reads unless it's this:
"He recounted how he had the rare privilege of meeting one, and he sang me a mere fragment of its melody. The music seemed to vibrate my very bones; I do not exaggerate when I say it was the most beautiful thing I have ever heard."

I mean, that's fine if it's the case, but if I had been judging based on where it was learned, listening to a twirling riptide in the fabric of existence for the music of creation trumps the relative equivalent of someone humming a few bars of this music. The former also makes more sense thematically, hearing the song from a potential source itself.
Having learned it from another singing it is well and good, just not as noteworthy.

- The explanation of Mich's Use of the Secret Ingredient score is a bit brief. Can you please elaborate on the reason he scored lower than a character that did not conplete the SI, especially when Mich had noted uses and combinations of every class feature (including the frustrating capstone).

Well, would have bumped Santana's down a full point if they were good, solid capstones. As such, they weren't but as I said, not completely useless, so a .5 instead.

I really liked the story of both, though Mich's in my own mind's eye reading it felt like he'd taken it to go along with the Ardent. Someone obsessed with sensations, he just focused on music in the end because someone sang to him, and it was the most sensational of the senses so far. Wasn't a life calling though.

Just my own personal feeling while reading it. Enough for a .5 difference.

[Grynning]

Spoiler

Show

Mich doesn't use firre polymorph to qualify for the SI--he does that just fine on his own.
- You mentioned that Mich uses too many sources. However, the build itself only uses 9 sources (the same number as Markus/Primal)--MIC was included only for potential gear, which was not an essential part of the build. For consistency's sake, I would ask you to adjust your score.
The entry classes used provide only two things: bardic music/perform skills, and limited spellcasting to support the SI, which was the focus of the build.

You are correct, he does still qualify for the SI without polymorph. It is using a dip in a 3.0 class, one which you point out yourself is very heavily front loaded with power (indicating it wasn't very well thought out), but I will adjust up by .5 on elegance.

I will not adjust higher based on sources, as you do draw from two setting specific books that non-FR players (myself included) are unlikely to own or have even looked at before, the Planar Handbook (another one that's pretty uncommon), and 2 different 3.0 sources. There's just too much stuff going into this one from disparate, unconnected material. All PV used from most of his sources were feats, and feats that are commonly known to most optimizers. You'll note that his originality score was lower than yours, however. As I said in my criteria, originality is good, but if it forces me to accept that I'm not going to be able to see the source in time to judge the contest, I have to penalize a bit.

Yes, Primal uses a couple of FR sources too, however, they aren't 100% necessary to his build. Craven and Artist could both easily be swapped out for other feats without a lot of impact on the character. All his class levels are from Core and completes, as are the majority of his other feats.

Final Elegance Score: 2.5, for a total score of 14

[OMG PONIES]

Adjusted Final Scores

{table=head]Name|Place|Total|Average
Markus VanDerHomme|GOLD|58.75|3.67
Mich J Rana|SILVER|57.75|3.61
Tsormal Spellbane|BRONZE|55|3.44
Santana|Fourth|51.5|3.22
Kestrel Hath|Fifth|45.25|2.83[/table]

With that, I think we're ready for the reveal of our Chefs, the trophies, and ICO XV!

[true_shinken]

I'll contact Jumilk about the trophies.
I'm still not set on the next secret ingredient, so give me suggestions.

[OMG PONIES]

Scion of Tet-Em-Nu or whatever...the rhinoceros-focused prestige class. Or heck, a Dwarven Defender! In the meantime, can we get a reveal of the chefs?

[Amphetryon]

Scion of Tet-Em-Nu or whatever...the rhinoceroshippopotamus-focused prestige class. Or heck, a Dwarven Defender! In the meantime, can we get a reveal of the chefs?

Fixed That For You. :D

[Akal Saris]

I'll suggest Kensai from C. Warrior, pg. 49. There are several interesting abilities thrown in there, and the customizable weapon means that each optimizer will have 10 levels of different abilities to focus on.

[Pechvarry]

Pretty much ANYTHING out of the Planar Handbook if it's not too obscure -- Defiant, Doomlord, and especially Fatemaker. I would say Ardent Dilettante, but since that's actually been in the ICO Challenge once or twice, it may not be as swell. Visionary Seeker could be good, too. Kinda barren on class features but the ones it has are pretty cool and unique.

I also like Tactical Soldier but Miniature's Handbook is really tumbling down obscurity's own personal rabbit hole.