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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: For Science! Test Group A

    I think Santa entered the world here based on an ultra complex mathmatical forumla applied to the world wide belief in Santa Claus. The elves probobly landed here because someone shot their raindear pod down.

    As for the morality: Both Santa and the elves are from children's belief in Christmas which means they hit all the major notes: Santa and the Elves are basically decent folk. They wouldn't go on to try and kill anyone. All they want is to dilver toys and merry Christmas to everyone and they think we're scrooge types trying to cancel Christmas for twisted mirth.

    Satna and his elves aren't dangerous. It's Havoc that's dangerous, so morally we can't put any more than a huge accident on them. Clockwork Harry is right to say we do what needs to be done, but we had that fight in the bag without needing to kill anyone.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: For Science! Test Group A

    It seems the only way to help Santa use his powers for good, instead havoc, is to change the myth of Christmas from "gifts" to "Santa gives miracles."

    Nah, if it were that simple the Angel Manes would be a lot more competent.
    Last edited by The Kings Raven; 2011-02-27 at 07:26 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    And what about naughty children? And while we are on the subject, Havok is not something to play around with.

    If even 1 of them had gotten through do you even what to think of what kind of destruction it might have caused? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. This Santa Mane and his elves may want to do good things, but in the course of doing that they will kill lots and lots of people.

    In a way, they are like terrorists. They think they are doing a good thing but the result is that a lot of people die. You seem to want to judge them on their own terms. I feel that is a mistake. We should judge them in absolute terms, in which case: they are all crazy, want they want to do will kill people, and they will fight to prevent us from stopping them.

    How are they any different then someone who mailed out anthrax but thought it was fairy dust and it would make people fly? Let go of your cultural preconceptions and admit they are dangerous.

    Just because we had the advantage doesn't mean we should treat them as anything but what they were, dangerous insane killers. As I said IC they are worse for wearing pleasant forms. Had they been a zombie hoard delivering mind control parasites to allow everyone to have the joy of joining the hivemind you would have tried to kill them right along with me.

    The difference is only in how they look and how much their phrasing appeals to us.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: For Science! Test Group A

    The problem is that they aren't zombies, nor are they part of a hivemind. They are for all intents and purposes people. Secondly, as was mentioned in the IC thread, even if you killed them, they just come back later, with all memories intact, likely hardening their resolve. Those elves Alrai killed, probably back tomorrow.

    Really we need an alternate solution, here.
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    How our they different from zombies? They are crazy. And I didn't commit murder anyway since they come back.

    They look nicer, they have the potential to seem nice, but they still have a zealot's resolve to do something that will kill people. They are insane and dangerous, they just have good PR and look good.

    That zombie example I gave was the same in every way except that the arbiters are not disgusting shambling corpses, but cute little elves. Instead of parasites they deliver presents, and instead of the living death of a hivemind they just get regular death.

    I have the suspicion the Peerage would agree with me on this. I also have absolutely no desire to get them involved unless Lily does.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Well, you almost said it. They've got the potential to be nice. If everyone were awakened, or inspired, there'd be no problem. Its just most people have the weakness of being mortals.

    Manes are powered by mania generated by disbelief. Like Kings Raven said, if it were possible to change exactly what people disbelieve about Santa Clause, it'd be possible to change Santa himself.

    Like for instance, if the notion that Santa doesn't deliver presents were to enter public consciousness, there wouldn't be a problem. Difficult? Yes. But you've got the resources of the entire peerage available.
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    But they are not yet actually nice.

    We must deal with the world as it is, not as we want it to be. I can wish as hard as I am able that I did not have to eat. I could even believe it fully. But I would still starve to death if I did not eat.

    Besides, the Peerage has better things to do. Santa will disappear through normal social developments eventually anyway.

    The above applies to you all of course. I on the other hand can deal with the world as I want it to be. But then again, I can will things into existence and the world bends over backward to do what I want it to.

    Do I sound like an unmada?

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    :cough: OOC thread :cough: :)

    So what exactly are you suggesting? Continue to fight Santa from year to year? I don't think anyone was arguing against that, just the use of lethal force in this instance. If other options could be found, that'd be good too.

    As for Unmada, its a condition that sometimes afflicts genii that try to channel too much mania. It creates a reality-warping field to the effect that the afflicted is nearly always right in their world-view. Others entering the field have their perceptions changed so if they hold an opinion contrary to the afflicted, they're wrong. The reality-warping effect starts small, but if left untreated can grow pretty big, like size of a small city big. Anyway thats the gist of it.
    Last edited by Indalecio; 2011-02-27 at 11:45 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exthalion View Post
    And what about naughty children? And while we are on the subject, Havok is not something to play around with.
    I think Santa just ignores naughty children. The legend used to say he gave them coal but I think that part of the story has died off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exthalion View Post
    If even 1 of them had gotten through do you even what to think of what kind of destruction it might have caused?
    At worst one or two people Catalysing or turning Beholden.

    Basic Christmassology: The elves stay in the workshop creating toys while Santa delivers them. Santa is so dangerous because of his space warping abilities. The elves would have to walk from door to door carrying presents (and they're not very strong). Any Havoc is more likely to result in a smashed toy or a dead elf than a dead grown adult.

    Check the rules for Orphans. Unless it's been around for hundreds of years, or it was dangerous to begin with small toy sized Orphans are actually not that dangerous to a grown adult.


    BTW, did you notice that the other teams were capturing elves alive? That's important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exthalion View Post
    In a way, they are like terrorists.
    And our governments make the effort to take terrorists alive, even keep them alive. It's why we build prisons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exthalion View Post
    Let go of your cultural preconceptions and admit they are dangerous.
    Again. Dangerous people are sent to jail, not shot by trigger happy police who could have cuffed them without breaking a sweat. (This is England remember, most police don't even carry a gun. The death penalty has been abolished.)

    Lilly is working to join the Iridium Sentinels when they take applications in February; she wants to be a cop. She knows this stuff and has practical experience in non-lethal combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exthalion View Post
    dangerous insane killers.
    Who go to jail, not get shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exthalion View Post
    you would have tried to kill them right along with me.
    And had to roll Obligation. Geniuses
    a) Should err on the side of not killing people because they're really bad at making this sort of judgement call. (Though from the looks of things, Mage's are even worse)
    b) Need to be purer than pure to keep their fragile remains of sanity intact. Even if they correctly call a you or the world situation it still shatters their fragile grip on reality.
    c) Are rigorously trained by the peerage to understand both the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exthalion
    How our they different from zombies?
    They're living beings. They have rights (same as any other criminal) and feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exthalion
    I have the suspicion the Peerage would agree with me on this.
    Most likely they just won't be interested. The Peerage deliberately shut down most of it's self policing efforts after realising they were becoming a paranoid inquisition. The formal policy is something like "Let someone who cares (like Lilly) handle it" (Unless Bristol is a bit more organised than average. Over to you EvilDMMk3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Exthalion
    But they are not yet actually nice.
    Yes they are actually. Dangerous, insane, but nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exthalion
    Do I sound like an unmada?
    Oh yes. And it's things like "I on the other hand can deal with the world as I want it to be." that do it.

    You avoid being an Umanda by makeing an effort to deal with the world as it really is, not as you see it in your head. The three key points to not be an Unmada are:
    1) Being open to criticism on your beliefs.
    2) Dealing with the world as is, not the world in your head.
    3) Accepting that you are crazy, that you don't know the hidden truths of the world, and that The Consensus (sane scientists) despite usually not knowing Mania exists are the ones who really understand how the world works.
    Last edited by The Kings Raven; 2011-02-28 at 06:40 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: For Science! Test Group A

    OK, as interesting as this is I am going to ask you to stop the debate. You are both being mature but neither of you are going to shift and I don't want it to hamstring the game. One of you end it IC and please don't bring it up again unless RP relevant.

    Due to the fiddlyness here, and the lack of a hubris warning, no wisdom roll will be called for.
    It is a contraction of Evil DM Mark 3. I don't know why why so many have difficulty with a standard contraction but there we are.
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  12. - Top - End - #222
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    A: Alrai is American and isn't quite up to speed on British customs.

    B: He doesn't get this whole Genius thing too well.

    C: He doesn't think the elves are real people, just facsimiles. He doesn't quite understand what manes are.

    D: He doesn't believe in prisons either. He feels that a society that is building them in anywhere near the numbers our our are doing something wrong to be in that situation.

    E: Almost everything mages fight are either Seers of the Throne, Banishers, or of the Abyss. Their first reaction is for the most part shoot first because most of the things they deal with either do the same or are Lovecraftian horrors that will break the minds of even mages. He is also an Obrimos and they are even more shoot first then the other paths.

    F:
    1) Being open to criticism on your beliefs.
    Except in certain areas Mages are not open to criticism. They have walked in the Realms Supernal and writ their name imperishable on the foundation of a watchtower there. The Abyss is also a very real thing to them. In areas like that they know they are right.

    And most of them think geniuses aren't even human and are some kind of twisted Abyss warped corruption of true Awakening.

    2) Dealing with the world as is, not the world in your head.
    Kind of hard when your basic way of using power is to make it the way you want. As mages grow in power their ability to do anything or make things different becomes huge. I high level Life mage could live forever. An archmaster of forces could transmute the iron in the sun back into hydrogen and so cause the star to burn forever.

    Mages don't have to accept reality, and moreover this is the Fallen World. It isn't anything near ideal anyway.

    3) Accepting that you are crazy, that you don't know the hidden truths of the world, and that The Consensus (sane scientists) despite usually not knowing Mania exists are the ones who really understand how the world works.
    Except that mages, in their own eyes at least, do know how the world works better then the Consensus. They know the Supernal Law which transcends the Fallen. And the Fallen Law will break to make way for the Supernal. That is vulgar magic.


    Edit: The above was started before I saw EvilDM's post.

    I think we did just stop it IC, since we have another elf to deal with.
    Last edited by Exthalion; 2011-02-28 at 01:32 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: For Science! Test Group A

    Eep, I posted in the IC thread before I read the OOC thread.

    Delete post, do not delete post... may as well leave it. It's only three lines. But as I said in the IC post, I couldn't see any evidence from any of EvilDMK3's posts that we have a surviving elf to deal with so we'll need another excuse to stop arguing (and not just have Lilly try to arrest Alari or Alari try to prove his point sometime later).

    How about orders from the higher ups that would have us hauling large amounts of presents to some sort of facility for hours? There's only so much arguing you can do after hard labour in the freezing cold.

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilDMMk3 View Post
    Due to the fiddlyness here, and the lack of a hubris warning, no wisdom roll will be called for.
    I had been wondering what happening with Wisdom.

    From an OOC fairness to players perspective good call.

    (now how to abuse he fiddlyness to destroy a city without loosing obligation? J/K )
    Last edited by The Kings Raven; 2011-02-28 at 01:41 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Default Re: For Science! Test Group A

    Mages feel the tug of their own conscience when they are about the commit an act of hubris.
    No Genius equivalent I can find.

    May I just say the two of you are making it very clear why Geniuses and Mages don't get on...
    Last edited by EvilDMMk3; 2011-02-28 at 01:49 PM.
    It is a contraction of Evil DM Mark 3. I don't know why why so many have difficulty with a standard contraction but there we are.
    In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded
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  15. - Top - End - #225
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    Default Re: For Science! Test Group A

    I know . I wish cultural differences was the reason stated in the Genius corebook, it's far more interesting and playable than what the book actually says. It even fits nicely with the mad science - Mage relations you get in Promethean, I can't really see why it wasn't in the book.

    [edit]
    The list below is not complete or all-inclusive; the Storyteller is expected to examine questionable actions from a genius to see if they fit with the general pattern of transgressions listed below, and to warn the genius' player of a transgression that the mad scientist is poised to commit.
    p85.
    Last edited by The Kings Raven; 2011-02-28 at 02:04 PM.

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    Default Re: For Science! Test Group A

    DM, ruling on the elves? My spell only had two targets and I don't see anything in the rules about it spreading unless they touch.

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    I am going to rule that they are dead, the third one was covered by the boiling candy spray given off by the other two.
    It is a contraction of Evil DM Mark 3. I don't know why why so many have difficulty with a standard contraction but there we are.
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  18. - Top - End - #228
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    Should we delete the last two posts since this was an OOC confusion?

  19. - Top - End - #229
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    How about memetically creating an Anti-Santa who's the arch-nemesis of Santa. Ever year on Christmas Eve he and his minions go out to do battle with Santa and his elves, though mostly its to steal the presents Santa brings.

    EDIT: It'd have to be a Wario like figure. Someone who has a personal grudge against Santa, but not anyone else, otherwise the cure becomes worse than the disease.
    Last edited by Indalecio; 2011-03-01 at 12:40 AM.
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  20. - Top - End - #230
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    Default Re: For Science! Test Group A

    There is always Manichaeism instead.

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    Default Re: For Science! Test Group A

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilDMMk3 View Post
    I am going to rule that they are dead, the third one was covered by the boiling candy spray given off by the other two.
    Most painful death ever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exthalion View Post
    There is always Manichaeism instead.
    How does a dead gnostic religion fit into all this?
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  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exthalion View Post
    There is always Manichaeism instead.
    How does a dead gnostic religion fit into all this?
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  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Default Re: For Science! Test Group A

    Its dualistic opposition between good and evil of course. Related to your memetic evil santa idea.

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    Hmm.

    Methinks that in 1957 this plan was tried by another Genius.
    It is a contraction of Evil DM Mark 3. I don't know why why so many have difficulty with a standard contraction but there we are.
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    What happened in 1957?
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    A certain book. I say no more.
    Last edited by EvilDMMk3; 2011-03-01 at 05:16 PM.
    It is a contraction of Evil DM Mark 3. I don't know why why so many have difficulty with a standard contraction but there we are.
    In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tirian View Post
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  28. - Top - End - #238
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    Default Re: For Science! Test Group A

    How the Grinch Stole Christmas

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    So the question is. Is there a Grinch mane? But I remember now. He changes his attitude at the end of the book, so there's a bust right there.

    We'd need a bad Santa in it for the long haul. If we can spin it as, before he became Santa, he had to split off all the evil inside himself, which in turn became bad Santa. Is anyone familiar with evil King Picollo and Kami from DragonBall Z, then you know where I'm going with this.


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  30. - Top - End - #240
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    I don't know where that spoiler comes from...

    But the moral of the story is that Christmas isn't about rewards for being good, and has to do with family and togetherness.

    And kids might not understand the concept of splitting of their evil self. Maybe an evil brother?

    I don't think this is going to work though. Unless I get Fate and Mind up high enough in which case I can create a curse of unbelief in Santa that spreads via association. Within a few days to weeks every child will not believe in him.

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