Murphy's Law 5: To Comic 100...And Beyond!

[Lord Raziere]

yea, I'm gonna go ahead and consider Astrid and that angel, along with most their followers as evil now. When an angel approves of genocide, you know the world is screwed up.

[GreenMuffin]

Why can't he hate what they are doing to the plavaan and want to stop it, but still be unable to bear watching a mortal suffer in pain when he can do something about it?

I never said he couldn't. I even mentioned something of the sort.

[CoffeeIncluded]

yea, I'm gonna go ahead and consider Astrid and that angel, along with most their followers as evil now. When an angel approves of genocide, you know the world is screwed up.

Just promise you won't stop reading.

At least please stick around for Friday.

[Draconi Redfir]

maybe he is just an evil guy with the ability to heal? i mean if you want to keep up an illusion you cant go around killing evryone you see.

[HalfTangible]

Maybe Rust went all the way with his lie and decided to make Byron's condition even worse? Apparently, the less painful a gunshot is, the more deadly it is. Same principle may apply to spells?

[Mystic Muse]

yea, I'm gonna go ahead and consider Astrid and that angel, along with most their followers as evil now. When an angel approves of genocide, you know the world is screwed up.

Meh. I've heard plenty of stories where angels are screwed up while their boss is a perfectly good being, I'm not surprised. Both angels and gods are flawed beings in D&D.

[Lycan 01]

I got a baaaaad feeling about this.

[RdMarquis]

If Lord Byron doesn't have an heir, could his death lead to a succession crisis?

[HalfTangible]

If Lord Byron doesn't have an heir, could his death lead to a succession crisis?

*facepalm* That's EXACTLY what causes succession crises: not having a clear line for who rules next

[RdMarquis]

Well, I knew he didn't have a direct descendant, but I was wondering if there wasn't someone else who was still a more eligible successor than all the other nobles that would fight each other for the throne.

[blackjack217]

It would be really funny if it is loyd or someone with pro-palaivain feeling... who might need some protection from radical elements...

[Alagaesian]

Personally, I don't think that Rust is an evil outsider at all. If anything, he's a servant of Astrid who firmly believes in the same things she believes.

Astrid thinks that the Plaavan gods murdered Salblaze in cold blood, so her celestial servants and mortal paladins also view things that way. Already seeing them as evil, Astrid's followers will assume that the Plaavans are doing other evil things, even without much evidence. For instance, they think that the Plaavans have "stolen" land from Kago and somehow started the Red Fever plague on purpose. Thus, they think of the Plaavans as malicious evildoers that deserve the genocide that they are performing against them.

Notice how nothing in the above reasons that the Astridites must be bad people. Far from it - they are misinterpreting something that happened so far into the past that little evidence exists to prove them wrong. Rust can still heal people and be a righteous servant of Astrid even if he fully supports the Plaavan war.

Yes, Rust actually being an evil outsider might be an interesting plot twist. However, it would partially ruin the message that Coffee is making in these past few comics - good people can still do evil things without sliding into Miko levels of Knight Templar. Murphy and Hyperion actually seem to care for Lord Bryon, and cared for Elizabeth when she was still alive. Lloyd was able to find friends and a place where he belonged among the Kago army. Kago is not full of bad people. They are good people trying to do something righteous, but they are still performing evil and need to be stopped.

It kind of ruins the effect if they are all just being tricked by an evil outsider, doesn't it? In that case, the way to fix Kago is simply to reveal Rust for what he truly is. Murphy and Hyperion see the error of their ways and repent. Hooray. It makes for a much more interesting storyline if Team Gale has to combat an entire Good-related culture, Astrid and her celestials included.

[Mystic Muse]

Just because a possible servant of Astrid agrees with the genocide of the Plavaans does not mean Astrid does. In fact, according to D&D, I'm pretty sure you can't support Genocide from a flawed point of view, and remain a good god.

from the SRD

In D&D "Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others."

In D&D "Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

If Astrid supports the Genocide of a race over something they did not do and had no control over, she can't be good by D&D alignment.

If we're talking about real life, we shouldn't as that gets threads locked.

[HalfTangible]

'Good' is also a devotion to destroying creatures who are irrevocably evil (demons, devils, etc), turning those who are revocably evil back to good or just stopping the evil plans of said creatures.

The problem the Kago have is that they see the plavaan as irrevocably evil because they serve gods who murdered salblaze in cold blood. Astrid possibly believes the same, and THAT is why she supports their 'genocide' (at the point we are shown one of the few on-screen confrontations of kago and plavaan, the soldiers have orders not to attack unless attacked, which implies it's a driving off effort rather than open genocide) In addition, the Kago believe they spread Red Fever, intentionally take land the Kago need, etc etc.

It's not that Astrid and Kago are evil, they're just wrong.

[CoffeeIncluded]

'Good' is also a devotion to destroying creatures who are irrevocably evil (demons, devils, etc), turning those who are revocably evil back to good or just stopping the evil plans of said creatures.

The problem the Kago have is that they see the plavaan as irrevocably evil because they serve gods who murdered salblaze in cold blood. Astrid possibly believes the same, and THAT is why she supports their 'genocide' (at the point we are shown one of the few on-screen confrontations of kago and plavaan, the soldiers have orders not to attack unless attacked, which implies it's a driving off effort rather than open genocide) In addition, the Kago believe they spread Red Fever, intentionally take land the Kago need, etc etc.

It's not that Astrid and Kago are evil, they're just wrong.

Partially. And again, this raises all sorts of somewhat disturbing questions. Some people are just going along with it because they don't care too much or because they're told that it's true, so why bother to fact-check? Some people don't like this too much, but are like, "Eh, whatever." Some people are trying to do something about it. Some people are just pure evil and basically get off on their screams. And other people are absolutely convinced that what they're doing is right, that it is a Good Thing to...Remove the Plavaan from Life's equation.

Lloyd was headed straight into that category; he was told and fully convinced. He pushed down that little voice inside him that was screaming, "This is wrong!" and told himself that he needed to work harder at being a good person, because if he were a good person, then he wouldn't feel a bit like a villain every time he abused the Plavaan.

And then that whole day happened, and the little voice became a big screaming voice in all caps, bolded, underlined, and italicized. And now he can't believe he silenced the voice so effectively, for so long, and it terrifies him.

Even more terrifying is when you factor someone like Serrin into the equation. Canonically, and many of the characters will agree, she is about the closest anyone can come to being almost saintly, pure-hearted goodness and decency. So if you convinced her--absolutely convinced her--That she was doing the right thing...?

Perry and Murphy are both anti-Plavaan, but it's clear that they're good friends, cared for Elizabeth, and genuinely care for Kago, even though Perry's on a power trip. But Murphy's...He's on the fence on how far to go with the Kagoans right now...

[Mystic Muse]

'Good' is also a devotion to destroying creatures who are irrevocably evil (demons, devils, etc), turning those who are revocably evil back to good or just stopping the evil plans of said creatures.

Guess what, Evil outsiders aren't irrevocably evil in D&D. My proof? Right here. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a

A succubus Paladin made by WOTC.

Now let's ignore that for a moment and look at dragons. Chromatic dragons are always evil in D&D, same as evil outsiders. That doesn't for one second justify familicide in D&D, especially since Chromatics can be good aligned in D&D.

There are no irrevocably evil creatures in D&D. The closest you can get are evil gods, Archdevils, demon lords, ETC. and even those aren't set in stone.

So, while coffee is perfectly free to change things in her comic, in standard D&D, this would almost certainly be evil.

@v Agreed. Wish I would put this much effort into my campaigns.

[Lycan 01]

You're a brilliant storyteller. Just saying. Its astounding to see the amount of depth you've put into this. The characters, the world... I mean, even without the comic, the amount of material you've got would still be entertaining to read, especially if used for a DnD setting or something.

[HalfTangible]

Guess what, Evil outsiders aren't irrevocably evil in D&D. My proof? Right here. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a

A succubus Paladin made by WOTC.

Now let's ignore that for a moment and look at dragons. Chromatic dragons are always evil in D&D, same as evil outsiders. That doesn't for one second justify familicide in D&D, especially since Chromatics can be good aligned in D&D.

There are no irrevocably evil creatures in D&D. The closest you can get are evil gods, Archdevils, demon lords, ETC. and even those aren't set in stone.

So, while coffee is perfectly free to change things in her comic, in standard D&D, this would almost certainly be evil.

@v Agreed. Wish I would put this much effort into my campaigns.

'Irrevocablly evil', contrary to popular belief, does not mean becoming good is impossible period, it means it's impossible to do within a period of time reasonable enough to stop them from doing their evil stuff

Moreover, i never said Familicide was justified. Please, for the love of CRAP, don't start a morality debate on Familicide.

[Mystic Muse]

'Irrevocablly evil', contrary to popular belief, does not mean becoming good is impossible period, it means it's impossible to do within a period of time reasonable enough to stop them from doing their evil stuff

Moreover, i never said Familicide was justified. Please, for the love of CRAP, don't start a morality debate on Familicide.

I'm aware. I meant it as an example that Genocide is not justified in D&D even for a race that is always evil.

Also, here's the definition I found of irrevocable "incapable of being retracted or revoked" which is what I was operating off of. If I got a bad definition I'm sorry.

Also, if we want to continue this, we should probably do so through PM and stop derailing the thread.

[CoffeeIncluded]

You're a brilliant storyteller. Just saying. Its astounding to see the amount of depth you've put into this. The characters, the world... I mean, even without the comic, the amount of material you've got would still be entertaining to read, especially if used for a DnD setting or something.

Heheh, thanks.

And I do like this debate, though it's a bit on thin ice. I don't know if I'll be able to update tomorrow, so if I can't, updates on Thursday and Friday. That's enough time...

And no, it is NOT justified, and they're only a half-step away from it, and Astrid and Kago better get a hold of themselves before it's too late...

[HalfTangible]

I'm aware. I meant it as an example that Genocide is not justified in D&D even for a race that is always evil.

No, but i wasn't talking about genocide in that definition of 'good', i was talking about individuals. The Kago took that definition and saw it as a justification for genocide, which is, of course, full of crap. But i was showing what i thought their view was, with the rest of the definition of good (turning the evil creatures you can good, and incapacitating the rest)

Also, here's the definition I found of irrevocable "incapable of being retracted or revoked" which is what I was operating off of. If I got a bad definition I'm sorry.

No, it's fine. That which is unfixable to one person isn't necessarily that way for the rest.

Also, if we want to continue this, we should probably do so through PM and stop derailing the thread.

I don't, not really. Morality debates are thin ice at the best of times =/

[Mystic Muse]

No, but i wasn't talking about genocide in that definition of 'good', i was talking about individuals. The Kago took that definition and saw it as a justification for genocide, which is, of course, full of crap. But i was showing what i thought their view was, with the rest of the definition of good (turning the evil creatures you can good, and incapacitating the rest)

Ah, okay.

No, it's fine. That which is unfixable to one person isn't necessarily that way for the rest.

True. I just wanted to point out that "Irrevocably evil" creatures aren't actually Irrevocably evil in D&D.

I don't, not really. Morality debates are thin ice at the best of times =/

Okay then. Thanks for entertaining me.

[Raging Gene Ray]

If Astrid supports the Genocide of a race over something they did not do and had no control over, she can't be good by D&D alignment.

This is what bothers me about this comic. They DID kill Salblaze. They wouldn't be worshiping those gods if they didn't support the senseless murder. Would the good thing to do be to just say "gee, I wish you didn't do that, but I forgive you" and forget all about your friend? Serrin's line about "How do we know the Plavaan gods MEANT it" is particularly asinine. How do you kill someone sarcastically? You do something like that because you mean it.

[Volthawk]

This is what bothers me about this comic. They DID kill Salblaze. They wouldn't be worshiping those gods if they didn't support the senseless murder. Would the good thing to do be to just say "gee, I wish you didn't do that, but I forgive you" and forget all about your friend? Serrin's line about "How do we know the Plavaan gods MEANT it" is particularly asinine. How do you kill someone sarcastically? You do something like that because you mean it.

Well, the only evidence we seem to have that the whole thing happened was in Astrid's holy book and what Rust is saying. Not exactly reliable sources. (Of course, I may have missed something)

[HalfTangible]

This is what bothers me about this comic. They DID kill Salblaze. They wouldn't be worshiping those gods if they didn't support the senseless murder. Would the good thing to do be to just say "gee, I wish you didn't do that, but I forgive you" and forget all about your friend? Serrin's line about "How do we know the Plavaan gods MEANT it" is particularly asinine. How do you kill someone sarcastically? You do something like that because you mean it.

No, she meant that the Plavaan gods may have seen Salblaze as a genuine threat and attacked accordingly. In Astrid's book, it sounds as if they did so for basically no reason. Serrin was saying that might not be the case.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, the only evidence we seem to have that the whole thing happened was in Astrid's holy book and what Rust is saying. Not exactly reliable sources. (Of course, I may have missed something)

Plus we're only getting half of the story.

Also, Just because a god ascends to their station through worship does not mean their worshipers agree with the god. Get a high enough bluff skill and you can fool just about everybody in D&D into believing you're something you're not.

[Asta Kask]

Why does everybody think Rust disapproves of the Plavaan slaughter when he quite clearly said he approved without an ounce of sarcasm?

For the same reason people believe Belkar will live happily ever after and not die like everything points to. They want to believe.

[Anterean]

Perry and Murphy are both anti-Plavaan, but it's clear that they're good friends, cared for Elizabeth, and genuinely care for Kago, even though Perry's on a power trip. But Murphy's...He's on the fence on how far to go with the Kagoans right now...

It's a fun thing, I am of the opinion that Tarquin genuinely cares for Elan, and did Nale as well up the betrayal. And yet somehow I don´t take this evidence that he is a good guy.

And the same with "Redcloack". Even if he does what he does for the betterment of his people.. well you know...

But I have made my stance on Kago clear earlier

[CoffeeIncluded]

It's a fun thing, I am of the opinion that Tarquin genuinely cares for Elan, and did Nale as well up the betrayal. And yet somehow I don´t take this evidence that he is a good guy.

And the same with "Redcloack". Even if he does what he does for the betterment of his people.. well you know...

But I have made my stance on Kago clear earlier

EXACTLY! You got it! (Although let it be known that I came up with these characters long before Tarquin was introduced, and I already had the basic ideas for a story before I heard of this comic.)

[Juggling Goth]

I got a baaaaad feeling about this.

I totally heard that in the voice of Bollo from the Mighty Boosh.

/offtopic.