Murphy's Law 5: To Comic 100...And Beyond!

[Dark Faun]

Look: I know that sexual harassment is not a joke. Believe me, I know.

But a) Janine doesn't exactly know this, and b) She doesn't think that she's sexually harassing him.

Then I hope she's going to suffer some consequences for her behavior at some point, or at least realize what she's doing.

[Raging Gene Ray]

The guy in the last panel of 93 sure looks like he's enjoying himself. Come to think of it, looking at that I wonder if he really is about to kill that drow or if he has something worse planned. .

If it makes you feel any better toward me, we can agree that what you implied there is a war-crime, no matter what the circumstances.

The archer, it seemed, was braced to attack in response to ANY hostile action. She didn't give her brain time to process how dangerous the attacker was because every millisecond matters in a battle. She would have responded the same way to a bird that seemed to fly out of the crowd, or a charging scimitar-wielding ranger.

It was that, and maybe the fact Coffee bothered to draw the blood on the halfling's face that made me sympathize with Kago there.

[mucat]

The archer, it seemed, was braced to attack in response to ANY hostile action. She didn't give her brain time to process how dangerous the attacker was because every millisecond matters in a battle. She would have responded the same way to a bird that seemed to fly out of the crowd, or a charging scimitar-wielding ranger.

It was that, and maybe the fact Coffee bothered to draw the blood on the halfling's face that made me sympathize with Kago there.

The archer's action may have been pure reflex, and not a crime at all; she fired in defense of her friend before she realized it was a disproportionate response. And for one moment, in the second-to-last panel, it seems like things might stop with that one death...perhaps would have stopped there, if the first soldier to speak had said "crap, we just shot a kid!" The crime occurs in the last, unseen panel, when instead someone says, "You saw that! Let's go!"...and presumably they all follow his lead and commence a massacre.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything wrong with Lloyd and Kago's actions in the latest comic. They were ordered not to attack unless attacked first...and they were.

Yes, they followed their orders to the letter, not only in the initial, almost unintentional shot, but in the massacre that followed. And in the latter case, following orders was a crime.

Murdering civilians is always a crime, even when you are ordered to do it. In our world, international law is clear on that point: if a soldier is ordered to commit a war crime, they are obligated to disobey that order. In Lloyd's world, there may be no legal basis for disobeying an order to commit murder, but it's still wrong to obey.

And I don't really think that's okay either. Just understandable. I just don't see the Kagoan military as some monolithic demon empire, nor do I see the Plavaan as a bunch of tragically misunderstood saints...then again, it's probably not supposed to be as black and white as that.

No, it's not supposed to be black and white at all. Nothing in the comic says Kago is uniformly evil, or the Plavaans are uniformly good. That would be letting the reader off the hook far too easily. Rooting for the misunderstood underdog is easy; realizing you can also identify with the aggressor is hard to come to grips with. It implies that when things get complicated in the real world, looking around you and saying "the people on my side are good people" does not guarantee that they, and you, aren't committing a crime.

[CoffeeIncluded]

The archer's action may have been pure reflex, and not a crime at all; she fired in defense of her friend before she realized it was a disproportionate response. And for one moment, in the second-to-last panel, it seems like things might stop with that one death...perhaps would have stopped there, if the first soldier to speak had said "crap, we just shot a kid!" The crime occurs in the last, unseen panel, when instead someone says, "You saw that! Let's go!"...and presumably they all follow his lead and commence a massacre.

I was waiting for you to voice your analysis. Yeah, if only...But who knows?

Yes, they followed their orders to the letter, not only in the initial, almost unintentional shot, but in the massacre that followed. And in the latter case, following orders was a crime.

Murdering civilians is always a crime, even when you are ordered to do it. In our world, international law is clear on that point: if a soldier is ordered to commit a war crime, they are obligated to disobey that order. In Lloyd's world, there may be no legal basis for disobeying an order to commit murder, but it's still wrong to obey.

Kago seems to have missed that part of international law. (Then again, pretty much all of medieval society did)

No, it's not supposed to be black and white at all. Nothing in the comic says Kago is uniformly evil, or the Plavaans are uniformly good. That would be letting the reader off the hook far too easily. Rooting for the misunderstood underdog is easy; realizing you can also identify with the aggressor is hard to come to grips with. It implies that when things get complicated in the real world, looking around you and saying "the people on my side are good people" does not guarantee that they, and you, aren't committing a crime.

Exactly! (Maybe I should have called this comic Greyscale? )

[Dark Faun]

Evil has no better ally than rationalization, its chief ambassador being "I was just following orders."

[CWater]

Evil has no better ally than rationalization, its chief ambassador being "I was just following orders."

*gloomy nod*

[mucat]

By the way, Coffee, a couple minor questions:

The orchid and grey speech boxes in the last panel are taking place in the present, right, where the Drow survivor is confronting Lloyd? That's the only interpretation that makes sense to me, but the dialogue seems a little off for that scene. The Drow seems to be giving Lloyd more wriggle room than I would expect. She asks whether he remembers who gave the order -- which allows him to just say "no" -- rather than flat-out asking who gave it. And if he's suppressed the memory, then it's remarkably insightful of her, under the circumstances, to see that possibility before he raises it.

Lloyd's response -- especially the "I have no intention of finding out" bit -- also seems a little out of place. Even if internally, he is determined not remember, he suddenly seems to be dictating terms to the woman he was trying to apologize to.

Because of this, I was wondering if the speech boxes are actually being spoken out loud in the present-day scene, or if they're an internal dialogue in Lloyd's head...


On a lighter note, if that's possible in such a heavy scene...I always like watching the expressions on the animal companions in this strip, and the druid's snake in this one is very cute, mirroring the expressions of his/her master perfectly (even to the point of making angry eyebrows despite not technically having any eyebrows.) Poor snake probably isn't going to survive the scene either, though...

[HalfTangible]

Kago seems to have missed that part of international law. (Then again, pretty much all of medieval society did)

'international law' didn't exist in medievial times. There were laws that many nations had in common but nothing established as 'international'

So no, they didn't miss it

Lloyd's response -- especially the "I have no intention of finding out" bit -- also seems a little out of place. Even if internally, he is determined not remember, he suddenly seems to be dictating terms to the woman he was trying to apologize to.

Explaining and apologizing are two different things. Moreover, i don't think it particularly matters who gave the order to attack, he still went and attacked. Saying 'this guy gave an order' would just be an excuse. And a fairly poor one given the circumstances.

[Raging Gene Ray]

TAnd for one moment, in the second-to-last panel, it seems like things might stop with that one death...perhaps would have stopped there, if the first soldier to speak had said "crap, we just shot a kid!"

Do you really think the Plavaan wouldn't have ran back and armed themselves after that? They killed an ignorant, bratty kid just for doing what ignorant, bratty kids do! And there's no point in waiting until they get weapons in their hands and armor on their bodies. That would risk the lives of Kago soldiers.

Murdering civilians is always a crime,...

They weren't exactly civilians. Whether or not they had any official standing in a military, they HAD declared themselves hostile to the Kago soldiers and were in a position to throw spells or concealed weapons at them. That makes them no more or less dangerous than if they had uniforms.

Rooting for the misunderstood underdog is easy; realizing you can also identify with the aggressor is hard to come to grips with.

And I'm happy to help on that point !

[Starbuck_II]

So it was an "the boston massacre" to Plavaan.

[Mina Kobold]

Do you really think the Plavaan wouldn't have ran back and armed themselves after that? They killed an ignorant, bratty kid just for doing what ignorant, bratty kids do! And there's no point in waiting until they get weapons in their hands and armor on their bodies. That would risk the lives of Kago soldiers.

Did they even have weapons? They didn't look like they wanted to fight. At all.

I would expect crying, angry yelling and shock from them, but they had already decided not to fight so I doubt they'd do that.

But if they did, I still think it would still be wrong to kill them. To me it sounds like saying "Well, he attacked me, I had the right to kill him" after going up to a demonstrator and shooting hir kid in front of hir.

QUOTE=Raging Gene Ray;9774320]
They weren't exactly civilians. Whether or not they had any official standing in a military, they HAD declared themselves hostile to the Kago soldiers and were in a position to throw spells or concealed weapons at them. That makes them no more or less dangerous than if they had uniforms.[/QUOTE]

It's not a matter of what one can do, but what they actually do. It just seem wrong to me to kill because you believe someone could be capable of doing the same, kinda sounds like Miko.

By the way, war demonstrators do the same thing, declaring that they will work against the government they live under, and halting their progress.

They could attack the police if they wanted, yet they don't. Same with the Drow.

I apologise if I sound rude or mean, it was not intended

[HalfTangible]

By the way, war demonstrators do the same thing, declaring that they will work against the government they live under, and halting their progress.

They could attack the police if they wanted, yet they don't. Same with the Drow.

The difference being that the drow DID attack. The response was wholly disproportionate, perhaps, but really, after you've killed a child do you honestly expect the people to do nothing?

[mucat]

Do you really think the Plavaan wouldn't have ran back and armed themselves after that? They killed an ignorant, bratty kid just for doing what ignorant, bratty kids do! And there's no point in waiting until they get weapons in their hands and armor on their bodies. That would risk the lives of Kago soldiers.

Are you playing devil's advocate, or do you actually see that as an acceptable decision when a situation is going bad: "We accidentally killed one demonstrator. So the only safe thing to do is kill the rest of them, because they'll be mad now."

You're right that the kid's death just made the situation more dangerous for the Kago troops. If the other Drow have weapons or spells -- which isn't at all established -- then they're more likely to use them now. But that doesn't justify a preemptive slaughter.

To say "the lives of my troops come first, and I'll order the death of anyone who I think might pose a threat to them" is the doctrine of a classic war criminal. So is "I'm a soldier, so I'll obey any order from a legitimate superios, whether I like it or not." In our world, neither of those excuses will stand up at a war crimes trial. In Lloyd's world, there may be no such thing as war crimes trials, but he still knows damned well that what happened was a crime.

[Mina Kobold]

The difference being that the drow DID attack. The response was wholly disproportionate, perhaps, but really, after you've killed a child do you honestly expect the people to do nothing?

No they didn't. A kid did on his own, a kid that probably had about as much understanding of the situation as a cat scratching you for rubbing it's fur wrong. The kid might be smarter than a cat, but not really enough to say "They attacked us! We have all right for killing them despite most of them being as surprised as us!" because he threw a stone.

And I said I expected them to cry, yell and perhaps be shocked (passing out or rabbling mad shock to be specific) I just don't expect them to be all that much of a threat considering Loyd's crew are trained soldiers who could easily subdue and calm them should they attack.

But they definitely would do something, yes

[mucat]

The difference being that the drow DID attack. The response was wholly disproportionate, perhaps, but really, after you've killed a child do you honestly expect the people to do nothing?

This is why soldiers are trained not only to kill, but to take control of violent situations and lock them down so that no one dies. Paladins had damned well better receive both kinds of training.

If there's a danger that the unarmed drow will run and get weapons, don't let them. Surround them, separate the spellcasters from the others, let them dent their fists on your armor, frikkin' sit on them if necessary...but a band of professional soldiers should be competent enough to restrain an equal-sized group of unarmed farmers. Yes, the soldiers run more risk of injury this way than if they just let loose with their weapons...but again, the Drow here have done nothing to justify mass slaughter, so the more risky path is the only acceptable one.

[Dark Faun]

What interests me is whether they'd have acted the same way had the protesters not been Plavaan.

[Marnath]

What interests me is whether they'd have acted the same way had the protesters not been Plavaan.

I'm guessing "no."

[CWater]

What interests me is whether they'd have acted the same way had the protesters not been Plavaan.

I doubt they would have, actually I'd be very surprised if they had. I mean that these fellows are soldiers, but they are not monsters, even if they did horrible things. What I believe stimulated their aggressive response towards the drow was the fact that they have been practically brainwashed for years to believe that all Plavaans are nothing but evil and vicious. And I doubt that most of them had ever met one before this, so they unlikely had any experience to challenge this belief. And from their point of view this first encounter was not very positive either, when the kid threw the rock, some of their first thoughts might have been: "Whoa, even their children are aggressive, they truly are as vile as we we're told!"

Any of this doesn't make the massacre any more right or acceptable, but it makes Lloyd&others reaction more understandable and less...hmm...well it was still as evil, but you don't necessarily need an evil person to do evil things.

The fact that the drow had no weapons should have been a hint though, and if the Kagoans would have stopped to consider how they would self have reacted if someone had shown up at their home and demanded them to leave it to a foreign country...

So even if I consider this bloodshed to be a definitely evil act, I would not go label these soldiers all inherently Evil because of it. It takes an exceptionally strong person to resist such brainwash coming from trusted authority figures, especially when they have no reason to expect that they would be hearing unthruths (I won't say lied to because I think lying means that you are intensionally trying to mislead someone and I fear many of those higher ranked Kagoans really believe what they're saying).


...Phuuh, long post...hope my English is understandable enough..

[CoffeeIncluded]

Okay, way too much to quote here, so I'll just get the basics (And don't worry, CWater, your English is fine!)

Their orders were to clear out the swamp, by force if necessary...

The colored bubbles in the last panel are being spoken out loud. Imagine as much sarcasm and bitterness in the drow's voice as possible, and imagine Lloyd's voice to be filled with pain.

None of the drow were armed. The only one who could have actually hurt the Kagoans was the sorcerer talking to them, and he's at such a low level that nothing he cast could do anything more than a couple of scrapes or bruises.

If they'd not been Plavaan? Probably not. And CWater, you've got it. They've been told their entire lives that the Plavaan are Evil; even the leaders of Kago believe this...

But...

Up until the Red Fever and a couple other things, the Plavaan had been viewed with suspicion, but not to this extent. It wasn't that hard for some of the more radical leaders to spread propaganda and drum up suspicion...And with the more radical leaders and all the stories and stuff being spread, even the more moderate leaders began believing their own lies...

Ever heard the phrase, "Tell a lie enough times and it becomes true"? It's like that.

[blackjack217]

If you want an excellent example of being told something over and over again until you believe it I would recommend Homecoming by RA. The entire FR drow society revolves around telling lies as often as possible until everyone believes it, including yourself.

[Dark Faun]

The colored bubbles in the last panel are being spoken out loud. Imagine as much sarcasm and bitterness in the drow's voice as possible, and imagine Lloyd's voice to be filled with pain.

I think you've made a mistake here. We can't hear the character's tone, so the only way to detect emotion is their face. And they're not shown, which can lead to confusion. I thought the drow's question was genuine whereas Lloyd's reply was "I don't want to remember this, shut up. Bitch."

Now that I know the drow was sarcastic, I feel she knows who gave the order.

[HalfTangible]

What interests me is whether they'd have acted the same way had the protesters not been Plavaan.

I doubt they would have protested so forcefully if they hadn't been Plavaan.

This is why soldiers are trained not only to kill, but to take control of violent situations and lock them down so that no one dies. Paladins had damned well better receive both kinds of training.

If there's a danger that the unarmed drow will run and get weapons, don't let them. Surround them, separate the spellcasters from the others, let them dent their fists on your armor, frikkin' sit on them if necessary...but a band of professional soldiers should be competent enough to restrain an equal-sized group of unarmed farmers. Yes, the soldiers run more risk of injury this way than if they just let loose with their weapons...but again, the Drow here have done nothing to justify mass slaughter, so the more risky path is the only acceptable one.

No they didn't. A kid did on his own, a kid that probably had about as much understanding of the situation as a cat scratching you for rubbing it's fur wrong. The kid might be smarter than a cat, but not really enough to say "They attacked us! We have all right for killing them despite most of them being as surprised as us!" because he threw a stone.

And I said I expected them to cry, yell and perhaps be shocked (passing out or rabbling mad shock to be specific) I just don't expect them to be all that much of a threat considering Loyd's crew are trained soldiers who could easily subdue and calm them should they attack.

But they definitely would do something, yes

I'm playing devil's advocate here, trying to point out the Paladin's reasoning. Namely, that the plavaan DID attack, it could only get worse after killing the child, and if they hadn't attacked after the child did then it would likely lead to an even bigger riot. They don't neccesarily need to slaughter them all, just attack harshly enough that they flee.

I still think it was a horrible thing, but i see their reasoning.

[CWater]

Hmm...something in the current events reminded me of this song, or at least the first part of it: (Don't mind the videoclips, it's the song that's important (even though it is an awesome amv (whether you are familiar with the Final Fantasy games or not)), though if you're playing FF7 games and don't wish to be spoiled, don't look)
Anyhoo:, This Is War, by 30 Seconds to Mars

Not sure why I feel they have something in common... Any comment?

[Anterean]

No, it's not supposed to be black and white at all. Nothing in the comic says Kago is uniformly evil, or the Plavaans are uniformly good. That would be letting the reader off the hook far too easily. Rooting for the misunderstood underdog is easy; realizing you can also identify with the aggressor is hard to come to grips with. It implies that when things get complicated in the real world, looking around you and saying "the people on my side are good people" does not guarantee that they, and you, aren't committing a crime.

So far I am inclined to disagree. We have yet see any redeeming traits applied to Kago, and anything indicating that the plavaan are anything but innocents persecuted by brutal Kagoian nation.

Yes - yes, I know we havn´t seen everything yet, and actually I am looking forward to the explanation as to how the Kagoian paladins can do this and still be good aligned.

[mucat]

I'm playing devil's advocate here, trying to point out the Paladin's reasoning. Namely, that the plavaan DID attack, it could only get worse after killing the child, and if they hadn't attacked after the child did then it would likely lead to an even bigger riot. They don't neccesarily need to slaughter them all, just attack harshly enough that they flee.

I still think it was a horrible thing, but i see their reasoning.

We'll find out soon enough how the attack played out. From what we know now, it seems likely that the Kago troops didn't "attack harshly enough that they flee" -- which, had they pulled it off, actually would have been one way to resolve the situation without further loss of life -- they simply murdered everyone. It's hard to imagine how "an even bigger riot" would have turned out worse.

We know there was at least one survivor, but I'm getting the feeling that she survived despite the soldiers' actions, not because of them.

[HalfTangible]

We'll find out soon enough how the attack played out. From what we know now, it seems likely that the Kago troops didn't "attack harshly enough that they flee" -- which, had they pulled it off, actually would have been one way to resolve the situation without further loss of life -- they simply murdered everyone. It's hard to imagine how "an even bigger riot" would have turned out worse.

Because a bigger riot would've meant that all of/most of the plavaan died, AND the kago soldiers would've been killed or seriously injured. Even if the lives aren't ones you'd like to preserve, the fact that they were just as unnecessary as the others would've meant it would be just as tragic.

We know there was at least one survivor, but I'm getting the feeling that she survived despite the soldiers' actions, not because of them.

Obviously SOME of them died. But at least one lived, and i think that if she had seen him try to kill them all, she would've KEPT running.

[mucat]

Because a bigger riot would've meant that all of/most of the plavaan died, AND the kago soldiers would've been killed or seriously injured. Even if the lives aren't ones you'd like to preserve, the fact that they were just as unnecessary as the others would've meant it would be just as tragic.

The ones I'd like to preserve?

Straw man there. No one is saying that the Kago soldiers had to play martyr and let themselves be killed. By any reasonable reading of the situation, there was very little danger of that. They had the only (non-silicate based) weapons on the scene. They had the only armor. They probably had the best spellcasters. They are trained, disciplined, and united.

If they had decided to minimize loss of life, they could have done a lot better than "well, one survived, because after we killed all her friends she was terrified enough to run away." They didn't kill the elves because it was the only way to save their own lives. They didn't kill them because it was the only way to save the chick in the orchid dress. They killed them because they were angry, because they didn't like Plavaans, and because their orders said it was okay as long as they had been attacked.

None of these are valid reasons.

[CoffeeIncluded]

The ones I'd like to preserve?

Straw man there. No one is saying that the Kago soldiers had to play martyr and let themselves be killed. By any reasonable reading of the situation, there was very little danger of that. They had the only (non-silicate based) weapons on the scene. They had the only armor. They probably had the best spellcasters. They are trained, disciplined, and united.

If they had decided to minimize loss of life, they could have done a lot better than "well, one survived, because after we killed all her friends she was terrified enough to run away." They didn't kill the elves because it was the only way to save their own lives. They didn't kill them because it was the only way to save the chick in the orchid dress. They killed them because they were angry, because they didn't like Plavaans, and because their orders said it was okay as long as they had been attacked.

None of these are valid reasons.

*Nods sagely* Exactly.

And even if you think about their original orders: The Kagoans' orders were to kick the Plavaan off of their own land and take over, using the swampland to grow rice or something for their own people to eat.

And they didn't even consider making some sort of trade agreement.

[mucat]

*Nods sagely* Exactly.

And even if you think about their original orders: The Kagoans' orders were to kick the Plavaan off of their own land and take over, using the swampland to grow rice or something for their own people to eat.

And they didn't even consider making some sort of trade agreement.

True, that. But that's above Lloyd's pay grade. Perhaps those are the issues he should have been considering on his own time, as he tried to make sense of the whole mess, but he can be forgiven for not thinking of that in the middle of a tense confrontation.

What he did need to consider, especially in the middle of a confrontation, is that you don't massacre unarmed sapients if any reasonable alternative exists. And, contrary to those who believe that a commander has to consider the lives of his own troops to the exclusion of all else, "reasonable" is not the same thing as "zero-risk".

[HalfTangible]

*Nods sagely* Exactly.

And even if you think about their original orders: The Kagoans' orders were to kick the Plavaan off of their own land and take over, using the swampland to grow rice or something for their own people to eat.

And they didn't even consider making some sort of trade agreement.

Wait, since when was marsh good for growing anything?