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    Default Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    New thread time!


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    Cheesegear presents Cheesegear's Newbie Guide on How to pick Warhammer 40K army, by Cheesegear (and contributors).

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    Disclaimer: This is not a guide to say which armies are 'better' than other armies. Except in hyperbole. The 'stars' notation is for what Newbies should play. By no means does this mean that you shouldn't play Chaos Daemons. It means that if you're a new player and don't fully understand the rules to the game, it might be hard to make Daemons work.

    Any unit that gets specifically mentioned is a stand-out unit, or will represent a 'must-have' unit that the army has.

    General Advice for all armies;
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    • Where possible, you should always talk to a GW Staff Member. No, you don't have to actually listen to or do anything they say. But, you should at least talk to them so they can point you in at least a general direction. Don't buy anything on your first trip into the store. GW Staff are very persuasive, and you can - or will - often end up buying something you don't even want.
    • If and when you do finally decide on an army, play a few games in an actual GW Store using the Store's models. Otherwise, where possible, use proxy models. This will give you a basic understanding of most of the rules and the turn sequence and a general idea of how your army-of-choice plays. Or, at least give you an idea that an army or unit that you thought was cool, really isn't. Or maybe that particular army just isn't for you. And that unit that 'looks cool' doesn't fit your play style.
    • Read a Codex. Whatever gets said on the internet, means absolutely nothing if you don't have a Codex to understand what's being said. This ties into the above in that it's kind of important that you have played a few games and know the rules.
    • GW doesn't mention it all that much, but; You don't have to use your army's Codex for your army. For example; It's perfectly reasonable to, say, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent a 1st Company of Loyalist Marines. You can, in fact, use Imperial Guard models to represent Tau, or Eldar. Just so long as your models look suitably awesome and your models conform to the rules of a different list (the WYSIWYG rule). If you can also give a background justification - or 'fluffy' reason - for why your Imperial Guard are wielding Shuriken or Pulse Rifles; Even better!
    • In regards to the above; 'Counts as' models can generally be shown to be a fluffy reason for why you have what you have. So, maybe your Imperial Guard regiment has a lot of Ogryns. You can use an Ogryn-holding-a-Lascannon as your 'Heavy Weapon Team'. As long as it's WYSIWYG, and at least makes a passing attempt at conforming to the rules (such as base size/shape), nobody cares. However, GW really doesn't like it when you come into their store and start using a different company's miniatures to play a GW game. However, making a scratch-build from Green Stuff and Plasticard is totally okay. Just so long as you aren't giving their competitors money, eh?
    • With that said; Painting, Green Stuff, Plasticard and Conversions in general, the only way to get better at it, is to practice. Start easy, start small. Start with adding cloaks to troops. Large, rectangular pieces of Green Stuff. Easy. Maybe you'll be confident to add textures. Ability comes with practice. And, there are literally dozens of tutorials to be found on YouTube. And hundreds of tutorials just about everywhere else.
    • Less is more. Don't try to equip your unit to do everything. Assign your units to fulfill a role, and let them do it. Don't waste points on things you aren't going to use.
    • Bodies are far more important than Wargear. Do not spend 100 extra points on Wargear, if you could otherwise spend 100 points on buying a whole unit. Wargear is not a substitute for models. Well, it is. But, it's a poor substitute.
    • In regards to the above two points, very rarely, should you spend more than 200 points on a single model (such as an HQ model), or 300 points on a single unit.
    • Troops. Win. Games. Do not, under any circumstances, skimp out on your Troops selection. More often than not they are the cheapest unit in the Codex, and, Troops are the only units who can capture an objective. Any unit can contest an objective, but, only Troops can claim objectives. All contesting objectives will do is get you is a Draw.
    • Assault on Black Reach. Bad for Space Marine players. Good for Ork Players.
    • Vehicles and You.
    • Cheesegear's Speaking Of Tournaments.... General themes to consider when attending a competitive arena.
    • Wraith's Handy-Dandy Guide to Painting and Assembling an Army
    • Closet_Skeleton says:
      "Every Troops choice you spend on a non-Scoring unit is Troops choice wasted."
    • How To Write An Army List | Sample
    • Should you buy a Battleforce? In most cases, yes.


    Guide to Armies
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    Space Marines (Codex Marines, SMs):
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    Pros: Space Marines are the eponymous 40K army. They are the army by which all other armies are judged. Just about all their units can be outfitted in many different ways to fulfill many different roles (but, in regards to General Advice, they should only try to do one thing at a time). With few exceptions, the entire army selection is plastic for easy conversions and assembly (and, most of the metal models you don't even need). As plastics, the army is also relatively cheap to buy.
    GW Staff are extremely knowledgeable on all things Space Marine.
    Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
    Power Armour and Bolters.

    Cons: Honestly, none. Save for the common misinformation that GW Staff will tell you to get you to buy certain units and sets (like Assault on Black Reach). But, this is by no means bad. As a Space Marine is a Space Marine. And pretty much all the units in the Codex can be useful one way or another.
    One such example is that there is a growing proportion of Space Marine players who feel - despite the fluff and the statline - that Scout Squads are superior to Tactical Squads (the reason why is outside the scope of this guide).
    The only truly bad thing about Space Marines, is that everybody has them. GW sells them at every opportunity. All starter sets ever produced by GW has contained Space Marines as one of the 'learner' armies. By extension, a lot of people turn to Space Marines because that's what they learned the game with, but, what they don't realise, is that the Assault on Black Reach starter kit is weak.

    Recommendation for Newbs; *****. But the Assault on Black Reach kit isn't a good start to a Space Marine army. GW likes misinformation.
    * or ** depending on whether or not you care about being 'just like everyone else'.
    What's so bad about AoBR?

    Codex Space Marines theoretically allows you to build 7 different 'themes' of Space Marines (even though it's 6) based around what colours and which Special Characters you like. However, any special character can be used in any Chapter, painted any colour that you choose. So, really, what Chapter you choose is kind of irrelevant since you can use other Chapters' special characters anyway.

    The common belief is that 'Space Marines is Space Marines'. They all have Power Armour and Bolters. All of the above applies to the below;
    Dark Angels: Outdated Codex. A few minor differences. Many people are best off going with Codex Marines rather than playing by Dark Angels rules. The only reason to play Dark Angels is for Ravenwing. And, even then, sometimes you might be better off with Codex Marines with a 'Captain on Bike'. *
    Black Templars: Outdated Codex. Slightly more focused on close combat. With some unique rules. ***
    Space Wolves: Space Wolves are actually the 'most fair' list out of all the Space Marine variants. They're a solid list. They have no actual 'bad' or 'trap' units. ****
    Blood Angels: The only real difference in the List is more options to take Jump Packs, Fast vehicles, and a slight bonus to Deep Striking. Staggeringly similar to Codex Marines otherwise and you wont actually lose much by playing Blood Angels. ****

    If you don't understand just what it is that makes these Chapters unique as opposed Codex Marines (read their respective Codecies), or you don't like or don't plan on using what makes them unique; You're better off sticking to Codex Marines. You can still paint your Space Marines as Blood Angels and use Codex Marines.


    Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Marines, CSMs):
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    Like Space Marines, but Evil. So, just about everything that applies to Space Marines applies to Chaos Space Marines.
    Pros: Chaos Space Marines are slightly more focused on close combat than their Imperial counterparts - but, by no means to they have to be. CSMs are not necessarily 'better' than regular SMs. Just...Different. Each faction has different toys at their disposal.
    There are a variety of different ways you can outfit your squads, and it's kind of difficult to find any two CSM armies the same.
    Power Armour and Bolters.
    Converting your 'Starter Box' Space Marine army to Chaos Marines is fairly easy. Just add spikes and arrows and mutations.

    Cons: There are options in the Codex. Too many options some say. It's very easy to get confused on what or what not to get for your squads and characters. And it's even easier to go overboard on wargear and skills and the like (remember; Wargear != Bodies).
    CSMs are also a fairly commonly seen army as they cater to the people who want to play Space Marines, but, think that 'Evil is Cool'. Some do consider who they get associated with as a bad thing.
    The 'some of everything' approach that a lot of new players have when collecting their armies doesn't really work for Chaos Marines. Most of the time, you're best off going all-out on one or two of the Cult units (below).

    Recommendation for Newbies: ****

    Chaos Space Marines (Cults):

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    Contributions supplied by Winterwind, DaedalusMkV and unknowingly by Myatar Panwar

    World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
    Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Berzerkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
    Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
    Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
    Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
    *** You will need Rhinos. Luckily, Berzerkers come in boxes of 12 (which is more than the other Cult units) and are plastic. Which is good.

    Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
    All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
    Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
    Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
    However, units without Independent Characters (that you can't target), and other dedicated Assault units will have an easy time. As Thousand Sons are the worst Assault unit in the Codex. But, this isn't saying a whole lot, as they're still Space Marines.
    Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd.
    *** Thousand Sons boxes are expensive. But, you get plenty in a box.

    Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
    Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
    Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
    Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
    Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
    Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
    **** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.

    Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
    Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
    Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
    The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
    On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
    The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
    **** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. But, Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain are really, really good. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.


    Tyranids ('Nids):
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    If you think of the movie Alien, or Starship Troopers, Tyranids aren't far off the mark.
    Pros: Tyranids are primarily seen as a close combat swarm army. The big Tyranids are extremely customisable and immensely powerful in whatever role you want to give them (but you should only choose one role at a time, remember), and, the smaller Tyranids come in massive numbers designed to make your opponent crap themselves on just how many bodies you can put on the table. The Tyranids also possess one of the most deadly close combat units in the entire game.
    A Troops choice that can Infiltrate.
    Most of the army is plastic. And, many of the metal models you only need a few of. So, per box, Tyranids are pretty cheap. Also, the Tyranid Battleforce is generally considered the 'best' one. Although, it's definitely recommended by most of the internet that you get two.

    Cons: Like CSMs, it's often possible to overload your Monstrous Creatures with too many biomorphs (wargear), which gets expensive. Fast. And, many of the smaller Tyranids are designed for one unchangeable role. The smaller Tyranids can't adapt their units for what they want to do. A Tyranid army is usually seen as very shooty-heavy, or very assault-heavy. It very - extremely rarely - can be both. Often, trying to be both is actually a detriment to the Tyranid army.

    Without the bigger Tyranids to back them up, the smaller Tyranids suddenly become a lot more vulnerable, partly because they already have low toughness and high armour saves to begin with. Therefore, you may need to spend a bit of money on the larger, more expensive models.
    As a swarm army, box-per-box, you also don't get very many points in each box. This means you'll probably have to end up spending a lot of money to get a decent amount of points onto the table.

    Also, like SMs and CSMs, if a 14 year old kid isn't playing SMs or CSMs, then they're playing Tyranids.

    Reccomendation for Newbies: ** to ****. Depending on how much real-world currency you have to spend. If you don't have a lot of money, you wont be able to field a lot of bodies or acquire the larger Monstrous Creatures. If you can field ~50 Termagants and 50 Hormagaunts per battle and have Monstrous Creatures to back them up...Good.


    Eldar:
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    Elves. In SPAAACE!
    Pros: The Eldar boast a 'swiss army knife' army. They have a unit for everything and every unit can do their job well. Each and every unit looks vastly different to every other unit, and are actually supposed to be painted in different colours to each other. So, you have a huge variety of models and colours. If variety is important to you.
    Most of the army can Fleet. All Eldar tanks are Fast, Skimmers, and the army contains Eldar Jetbikes (which have different rules to 'normal' Jetbikes). In short, the Eldar army boasts speed and maneuverability.
    As with their Infantry, they also have HQ units to fit certain roles. An Autarch can be outfitted to suit almost any battlefield role. Eldar Farseers and Seer Councils are powerful psykers. And the Avatar is a close combat Monster (literally).
    A lot of the metal models in the range come in reasonable sized boxes at a (fairly) reasonable price. The good news is, you usually don't need too many of the metal models.
    Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
    A Wraithlord is one of the scariest models in the game. An absurdly high Toughness and a reasonable armour save. And can kill troops and heavy armour with equal ease. Often at the same time. It's strength 10 and Monstrous Creature status also means it can rip apart tanks even when it's guns are suited to killing Infantry. It even causes Instant Death on most Infantry that attack it. Including a lot of HQ characters.
    Wraithguard are like smaller Wraithlords high Strength and Toughness, with a good save and toting around deadly guns.
    ...It's possible to build an entire army out of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

    Cons: Low 'Elf' Toughness.
    The sheer amount of variety can sometimes make it hard to decide which units to take. Especially since some of the units in the Eldar army overlap, but, achieve their role in slightly different ways. And it's these 'slightly different ways' that can make or break the unit depending on your opponent. Some particular units are even useless or near-useless depending on your opponent.
    Every unit fills a role. And is unadaptive. You can't manipulate any squad to do anything other than what it was designed to do (except Dire Avengers). And, in smaller point games where you can't afford to take every unit you want, you'll know that you're missing that unit. Because nothing else you have will be able to perform as well as the missing unit.
    It's these missing units that make of most of the metal models that will be in your army. You'll need the metal models.
    Individual Wraithguard units can often be prohibitively expensive in currency.
    Taking too many Wraithlords in your army will have people crying for curdled dairy products. That is; Cheese. In lower point games, just one Wraithlord is enough for "OMG! Cheese!" cries.

    Recommendation for Newbies: *** or ****. The Eldar army is an army where it's hard - but not impossible - to go wrong. With such a huge mandatory variety in models, an 'I want every unit' mindset (common in newbies) is actually beneficial to the Eldar army setup.


    Dark Eldar (DE):
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    Like Eldar, but evil (there's an argument that Dark Eldar are more evil than 'regular Chaos'). But vastly different.
    Pros: The Dark Eldar as just as fast and just as maneuverable - if not more - as their 'good' Eldar counterparts. Except pack a lot more firepower. Each and every unit is customisable (unlike Eldar) to attack different things. Splinter Cannons for killing Infantry and Dark Lances for popping tanks. And you can fit a lot of both in an army.
    The Dark Eldar close combat portion of the army is nothing to be sneezed at either. The Dark Eldar Lord (home of the 2+ Invulnerable Save) and Incubi retinue is one of the single-deadliest close combat units in the game (the only one better this author can think of is Necron Pariahs). Wyches are also very good.
    The Dark Eldar also posses Raiders. A Fast, Skimming, Open-Topped Transport vehicle. For some, this means putting a squad of Warriors in and flying them around the battlefield and shooting anything that moves thanks to being open-topped.
    Because a Raider is also Fast, and Open-Topped, and some Dark Eldar Infantry are also Fleet, it means Dark Eldar are often capable of the 'First Turn Assault'. Given just how effective Dark Eldar assault units are, this can only end well.
    Also being Open-Topped, it means that when (rarely if) the Raider is destroyed, it's occupants can bail out easier.
    In the hands of someone who has played Dark Eldar a long time, the army is staggeringly effective.

    Cons: Fragile. Fragile. Fragile. The Dark Eldar army is best described as 'shock and awe' (read the fluff ). The goal of the army is to butcher and hamstring the opponent as quickly and as brutally as possible. If it isn't blindingly obvious that the Dark Eldar are winning by Turn 3 or 4, then they probably wont win the battle at all. By turn 3 or 4, most of the Dark Eldar Raiders should be destroyed (if they're not, laugh), leaving the Dark Eldar to rely on their enormous Toughness of 3, or Jetbikes.
    The Dark Eldar have huge reliance on their Raider transport vehicles. This will end up costing a fair bit of currency in the end as nearly every unit will need one for extra protection or speed.
    A lot of (effective) Dark Eldar armies tend to look the same.
    A lot of the models are old and/or 'not very pretty'. However, some people don't mind that they're 'not pretty', because they're Dark Eldar. They're not supposed to be attractive like 'good' Eldar.
    Old Codex. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as the 3rd Ed. Dark Eldar Codex still stands up against recent 5th Ed. Codecies. It isn't bad...Just...Old. And it may or may not be missing out on some fun toys that the other races have been getting.

    Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***. The Dark Eldar are easy to learn, but hard to master. But, once mastered...The Dark Eldar tend to either win by a significant margin (often by Turn 3 or 4), or lose spectacularly (by Turn 5 or 6). If you don't like the models, you can always take regular Eldar, add spikes and make some really awesome conversions. But, doing this is hard.


    Necrons:
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    Think The Terminator, or perhaps think of Undead metal skeletons. And you can think of the Necrons.
    Pros: Some of the toughest basic Troops in the entire game.
    Power Armour and Bolters. Except 'Necron Bolters' have a special version of Rending-but-not-quite, allowing them to wound Toughness 8 or better models or cause Glancing Hits to any vehicle. Including Land Raiders. Yes. The basic Troop type, with no options, can cause Glancing Hits against Land Raiders.
    As well as their reasonable Toughness and 'Power Armour', they come with the We'll Be Back rule. Essentially your models can stand back up, even after they've been 'killed'. Like Undead. Or T-800s. Essentially, the Necrons are hard to kill. And sometimes don't even stay dead.
    Warscythes - available to Necron Lords and Pariahs - are the best weapon in the entire game. Ignoring all saves - including Invulnerable Saves - and rolling 2D6 for Armour Penetration. Given that both Lords and Pariahs have Strength and Toughness 5, they can and will carve through almost anything put in front of them. Not even 'hard' units, that rely on 2+ armour and Invulnerable saves (like Space Marine Terminators) need to think twice about assaulting Pariahs.
    The Necron army list is straightforward. You don't have to worry about whether to take Flamers or Plasmaguns. The unit is the unit. No fiddling necessary.
    Most of the (useful) Necron model range is plastic. And also come at a high in-game points cost. For this reason, the Necrons are probably the cheapest army to buy when it comes to currency.
    Necrons are extremely easy to paint.
    The C'Tan. The Necrons are able to field near-literal Gods on the battlefield.
    The Monolith. There's a legend that if you crack it open, it's full of cheese!
    Disclaimer: Cheesegear does not endorse breaking your Necron Monolith to find out if cheese is inside it.

    Cons: First and foremost, the Phase Out rule. When an arbitrary proportion of your army is destroyed, the Necron army automatically loses. Regardless of the mission being played, the opponent has the same objective; 'Kill them all'.
    Certain units are able to mitigate Phase Out from happening. One of the best ways to do this is to take a lot of the cheaper - and less fun - units in the army. For this reason, a lot of (effective) Necron armies tend to look pretty boring and are always pretty similar.
    The only real individuality to be found in the entire Necron army list is to be found on the Necron Lord. No other unit truly allows options except for whether to take grenades or not.
    The Assault capabilities of the Necron army is pretty effective, but, minimal. Either being expensive in points (like the aforementioned awesome Pariahs) and/or are not Troops. The Necron list also has a profound lack of Power Weapons, which doesn't help. The only power weapons found in the Necron list are Warscythes, which are only found on the expensive units; Lords and Pariahs (please note that Warscythes are awesome, however).
    Pariahs may be totally awesome, and perhaps the best unit in the game, but, they don't come with the Necron rule. Meaning, every Pariah you get for your army, means that you're one step closer to Phasing Out earlier.
    The basic Necron Troop comes at a high points cost, for this reason, Necrons do not often do well in games that are less than 1000 points.
    (Unless the opponent doesn't entirely know what they're doing, and doesn't know how to defeat We'll Be Back or force a Phase Out).

    Recommendation for Newbies: The Necrons are a very straightforward list. Very few options to get confused about, and extremely easy to paint. Necrons are very much like the Dark Eldar. It's very easy to make a bad list. It's also very easy to make a completely devastating list if you know what you're doing.
    * if you can't get your head around Phase Out or want a list that offers variety.
    **** or even ***** if you're looking for an easy army to put together and paint. And you can get your head around Phase Out, and know how to make it less bad.


    Tau:
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    With help provided by Nameless Ghost, Ricky S and Selrahc

    Tau are the archetypal alien race. Very progressive technology and a near-utopic society. Also draws several parallels to Mechs and Exosuits - if you like that sort of thing.
    Pros: Firepower. You want a really 'Shooty' army? You pick Tau.
    Like Necrons and Space Marines, you actually can't go very far wrong with the 'normal' Troop choice; Fire Warriors. They have a decent save of 4+, so they aren't dying en masse to Bolter fire. And they boast the best base-Troop weapon in the game. Yes. Better than Bolters. Easily. Their Transport (Devilfish), similarly, for it's points cost is one of the best in the game. Second only to the Eldar Wave Serpent. You can field a very respectable army fielding nothing but Fire Warriors and Devilfish - just bring some anti-armour weapons.

    HQ and Elites choices field some very respectable units in the form of Crisis Suits and Stealth Teams. Effectively your Mechs/Exosuits/Gears. With their ability to take a wide array of guns, on top of their ability to fire at multiple units at the same time, it makes them a very nice support unit for your Fire Warriors. Or, even a front-line squadron if you're brave enough. Crisis Suits also possess Jet Packs, rather than Jump Packs. Which is a really cool bonus to have. As it allows you to move in the Assault phase for move-shoot-move combos like Eldar Jetbikes.

    Tau Heavy Support though is what you're really looking at. Broadsides are exactly what their name suggests if you're into Naval Warfare. Broadsides carry Railguns; High-strength guns designed to annihilate whatever they're pointed at. And they do it well too.
    This author would be remiss if he didn't also mention Hammerheads. One of the better tanks in the game.

    Cons: Tau fold like paper in Assault. What they do in Shooting, they lose out in Assault. Even worse than Necrons. Low Weapon Skill, low Toughness, low Initiative, and no access to Power Weapons or weapons that don't allow saves in Assault. Their decent armour saves them somewhat, but not much.

    The Tau also have more than their fair share of 'trap' units. Which, outside of Themed Lists, don't actually do very well.
    Like taking Kroot. Kroot are better in Assault than pretty much anything else in the army, but, that's not really saying much. You're best off with more Fire Warriors.
    Ethereals are extremely good. But, your opponent will pretty much always target him first. And then he becomes a massive liability for your army.

    Like Tyranids and Chaos Marines, it's kind of hard not to go overboard on Wargear options on your Crisis Suits, because they're all just so good. Leaving you fewer points to spend on Fire Warriors. Not only that, Crisis Suits are not Terminators, and don't do real well under fire.

    Heavy Support choices are expensive in points. Problem is, if you don't take them, you're seriously missing out on some really impressive firepower options.

    Recommendation for Newbs; *** The Battleforce is one of the better ones around, so long as you remember that the Kroot are essentially 'free'; If you didn't pay currency for them, you're under no obligation to use them. Replace them with Fire Warriors as soon as you can. The Tau way of battle also requires a lot of tactics to use well (similar to Eldar), in that you need to prioritise fire and occasionally you have no choice but to sacrifice the odd unit here and there. Tau often play very static roles, unless you shell out extra currency for Devilfish. Which isn't always the best thing in the world. And no. There really isn't a way around being bad at Assault. The best thing you can hope for is that you've shot the crap out of your enemy before they get there.


    Chaos Daemons (Daemons, CDs)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Daemons. They come out of the Warp to eat your face. That's about all you need to know.
    Pros: Chaos Daemons, as an army, possess some of the more powerful units in the game. Strong HQs, strong Elites, reasonably impressive Fast Attack, and some strong Heavy Support in the form of Soul Grinders and Daemon Princes.
    The entire army is Invulnerable and sports Eternal Warrior and Fearless on every single unit except the Soul Grinder. But, as a Daemon, the Soul Grinder gets some pretty impressive things on its own. So, Power Weapons and other low AP ranged weapons don't really have any extra effect on Daemons. Your opponent is basically wasting points.
    Very powerful Assault army if you can get it there. It only takes three or four models to wipe out an opposing unit of 10 even on a fairly average day.
    Very fast army. A number of Beasts/Cavalry and Jump Infantry units, and the whole army Deep Strikes.
    High diversity and distinctive imagery of all it's units.
    Most of the army is plastic (or soon will be), which keeps currency costs low.

    Cons: *Deep Breath* Well, deployment. Before any game even starts, you're at a disadvantage. You can't actually plan with Chaos Daemons. Before the game starts, divide your army in half. Half your army arrives on Turn 1 via Deep Strike, and the rest of the army trickles in over the rest of the game.

    ...The really annoying part, is that you don't actually get to pick which half you get on the first turn. The only way to make a 'plan' with Daemons, is to have symmetrical halves, so, no matter what comes down, you've got what you want. Which means, all that diversity in models goes out the window as you now need to duplicate every unit. Leading to 'cookie cutter' units. Which nobody really likes - unless you want that.

    Yeah, the entire army arrives via Deep Strike and reserves. It's both good and bad, it's more often bad. Since Chaos Daemons have a real lack of shooting. The opposite of Tau, who have low Assault. But, due to Deep Striking, and the disallowance of Assault, your army will get shot at before you get to Assault with your units.

    This is solved by 'aggressive Deep Striking', which is ignoring terrain difficulties, and deploying as close to your enemy as you possibly can so you can Assault next turn. This means that you could take casualties from Difficult Terrain, and following Shooting phase from your opponent. To do this, you need lots of models, which costs currency.

    The Codex - like Eldar - has a higher-than-normal amount of unit redundancy. Some of those diverse units that you like, just wont be taken because there are other units that can do the same job, better. Like Necrons, Daemons' Elites and Fast Attack choices are mostly just more powerful versions of the Troops units. Because of this reason, Daemons' Troops are pretty lackluster in comparison to everything else. Except that you have to take Troops...well, because they're your Troops. Which is even worse because those Troops units aren't exactly cheap in points.

    With such a low save, Fearless is quite often a hindrance. And, unlike Orks or Tyranids, Daemons don't usually have the numbers to keep up a sustained losing-assault. But, Daemons don't usually lose Assault (even with such small unit sizes). So, you've got that.

    Recommendation for Newbies: * The deployment rules are like nothing a new player would be able to deal with. Not to mention the complexity and tactics that you need with a Chaos Daemons army in order to win.
    ** If you really like the imagery and painting/conversion opportunities that Chaos Daemons presents.
    Sadly, Daemons are more Cons than Pros unless you build your list a specific way. Which you - a new player - probably wont do.


    Daemonhunters and Grey Knights (DHs, GKs): **

    Spoiler
    Show
    Codex: Daemonhunters is unusual, in that it technically offers you two different armies to play with, as well as the option to blend them together to make a third. Essentially, you're given some of the best things available to Space Marines and Imperial Guard Armies, and have them led by a powerful psyker and his cadre of Imperial Operatives and minions in the name of the Emperor's finest hand-picked soldiers.

    Pros: The first thing that should be said about a Daemonhunters Army is that the quality of the models available, while narrow, is some of the finest available on a 40k battlefield. Very few forces can offer the sort of attention to detail and thematic consistency as a full contingent of the Adeptus Malleus.
    The fact that you are given instructions for at least 2 different armies to play is also a nice bonus. On the one hand, you have "Imperial Guard-lite"; Storm Troopers riding around in Chimera, holding the line while your Inquisitor Lord directs highly trained Assassins to neutralise specific important targets.
    On the other hand, you get the Grey Knights which are all the best things about ordinary Space Marines - like Terminator Armour, Land Raiders and impressive statlines - turned up to 11 with special abilities and exquisite new equipment to make a terrifyingly powerful Close Combat-orientated (though certainly not exclusive) army. Mix and match the two for a more balanced approach, or take even more Allies from your ordinary Codex: Imperial Guard and Codex: Space Marines to create one of the few Tournament-legal allied forces.
    Codex: Daemonhunters offers you a variety of themes and opportunities to use for free, that other Armies usually have to get by spending precious points on Special Characters.

    And to top it all off, the Codex is absolutely free to own! Yes, legally! You can get a copy all for your very own from the GW website, and it won't cost you a penny.

    Cons: See all that really good stuff I listed above? About elite equipment, powerful soldiers and copious special abilities? Well, you're going to pay through the nose for them in every sense of the phrase.
    The gorgeous models are almost entirely a metal range, putting even a medium sized army out of reach of most hobbiests. It also doesn't help that the Codex itself has been discontinued by GW, so chances are you'll be spending a lot of time awaiting your troops to arrive by Mail Order, which is yet another expense to bare in mind.
    Assuming that you actually have the models you need to play with, you might find yourself shocked by how few of them there are compared to other armies. Though Grey Knights are the worst offenders, virtually all units in the Codex are more expensive than their C:IG and C:SM counterparts, and it's entirely possible to play a legal, competitive 1500 point army with around 20 models in it.
    Thirdly, Codex: Daemonhunters was first published in 2002, and a lot has happened in the last 8 years. A number of the special rules and wargear options that you're choosing from have become incredibly weak due to changes to the Main Rules and other Codices, and those which aren't weakened are often made completely obsolete. For example, any Psychic Power referring to a Daemonic Instability Test? Yeah, you won't be needing that - those tests don't even exist any more, and it was very much a one-trick pony at the best of times.

    More specifically, the Daemonhunters Special Characters suck.
    Seriously - there's only two of them, and even comparing them to units available in the own Codex, let alone the SC's belonging to other armies, make you wonder why you would bother.
    The Daemonhunter special character has an embarrassing statline and only 1 of his 2 psychic powers actually does anything, whereas the Grey Knight special character lacks all of the rules that actually makes him a 'proper' Grey Knight, and his only other special ability benefits your opponent as much as it does you in a very literal sense.
    While special characters should be an interesting and characterful addition to an army, Codex: Daemonhunters tosses them in like an afterthought, robbing the player of the sort of storytelling grandeur that other armies take for granted.

    Recommendation for Newbies: * or **
    A pure Grey Knight Army is arguably one of the trickiest and most difficult army to use in Warhammer 40,000 - every casualty is a massive set back and your plans have to go off perfectly, for even the slightest mistake will leave you crippled in an instant. A pure Daemonhunter army will fare slightly better (hence the optional ** rating) but both armies can be done much better, more cheaply, by an ordinary Imperial Guard or Space Marine Army with an appropriate paint job. Heck, at least their Codices actually work properly!
    If that doesn't deter you, however, a Codex: Daemonhunters army will undoubtedly be the crowning jewel in your wargaming collection. It will look fantastic, it will make a satisfyingly loud *THUNK* when you put it on the table, and the bragging rights available for actually winning a game with such a beast will be unrivaled by any other army choice.

    Witch Hunters and Sisters of Battle (WHs, SoBs): ***

    Orks: *** to ***** depending on how much currency you have (horde army). Extra points because it's the more useful of the AoBR Starter Armies. So, a decent Ork army actually comes stock in the 'newbie box'.

    Imperial Guard (IG): * to ***** depending on how much currency you have. A ***** IG army is the single-most expensive army in the entire game. Even more than Daemonhunters.
    Imperial Guard Tanks.


    Still to come;
    Imperial Guard, Witch Hunters and Orks.
    These armies I have lot of experience with. Send PMs if you believe you have advice that I might leave out.

    Actually looking for, or things I can't write myself;
    More General Advice (I think I've covered most of it).

    SEND PMs. Don't Derail Thread.
    Please submit suggestions for additions to the guide to my PM box as to keep from derailing the thread. Also, try and keep it general. Specifics can be delved into after the aspiring player has picked an army.


    19.6.10 - Linked to "Wraith's Handy-Dandy Guide to Painting And Assembling An Army"
    20.6.10 - Linked to "How To Write An Army List"
    2.7.10 - Linked to Battleforce evaluations and cost-effectiveness.
    01.10.10 - Linked to "Speaking Of Tournaments: General Pointers For the Tournament-Bound Army List"

    Orks is next (Coming: TBA)


    ---


    Predecessors:
    * Warhammer 40K Tactics
    * Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God
    * Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
    * Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.
    * Warhammer 40K Tactics V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.
    * Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.
    * Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
    * Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths





    TheThan and crazedloon were talking Dark Eldar, while NinjaC and TheThan talked Spaaaaace Shaaaaarks!!!!
    Last edited by Zorg; 2010-11-17 at 02:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Aaaand to bump this over the old one, what say you all to my DE list?

    HQ:

    Duke Sliscus


    Troops:

    - 9x Warriors w Sybarite (blast pistol, agoniser), Blaster
    - Raider w Flickerfield & trophies

    - 10x Warriors w Sybarite, Blaster, Dark Lance
    - Raider w Flickerfield & trophies

    - 10x Warriors w Sybarite (agoniser, phantasm), Shredder, Splinter Cannon
    - Raider w Flickerfield & trophies

    - 10x Wyches w Hekatrix (blast pistol, agoniser), Haywire grenades, 2x special weapons
    - Raider w Flickerfield & trophies


    Fast Attack

    - 6x Reavers w Champion, Heat Lance, Blaster


    Heavy Support

    - 2x Ravagers w Night Shields, Flickerfields

    This comes to 1490pts, so I have 10 to play with... my thoughts are either trophies on the Ravagers (useful for morale boosting if they deep strike in), or a Phantasm Launcher on the Wyches (not as useful, but I've made a cool model and not much else costs 10 points).

    Also I'm undecided about Lances vs Disintegrators on my kites - I was thinking a Disintegrator for the Wyches and Lances for the Warriors. However I'm not sure if both or only one Ravager should have lances.

    Thoughts?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Razaele View Post
    Oh dear. Well, I wouldn't say he cheated since I know him very well. He's new to the Blood Angels rules so he probably just remembered the rules wrong. Oh well, lesson learned. I think I had better start boning up on the Blood Angels Codex myself, since everyone in our local club seems to be moving from other Space Marine Codices to the Blood Angels Codex.
    Which is stupid. There have been plenty of times where I've wished I had combat tactics on my Blood Angels, or that my librarian had null zone or a better shooting power. Or that I could take a Captain who was actually worth it.

    If your army doesn't already have the things in it that are good in Blood Angels (assault squads with or without jump packs, more apothecaries than codex marines can take) then there's really no reason to switch codex. If your army is all tactical squads and terminators and land raiders (which seems to be the stock marine build around where I live) then you really should go with the main codex.

    I saw a guy using a space marine gunline with 2 chapter masters. That was weird. Oddly enough there seems to be more Chaos Daemons players around than Space Marine ones.

    Anyway, after biting the bullet and throwing over £30 at ebay, I have 8 more bolter sisters , a standard, a flamer and a storm bolter. So in theory I can make a proper sisters army now. Woo-hoo.

    Still a lot of wasted points due to having to conform to the wyswywyg of models designed for 2nd edition. I'm going to have to go on a plasma pistol sniping day when I get some pliers but until then...

    Spoiler
    Show

    HQ
    Prioress Agatha
    Blessed Weapon, Rosarius, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, book of st. lucius, mantle of ophelia, canoness level heroine
    122 points

    Priest
    Power sword, brazier of holy fire, carapace armour
    65 points
    goes with Dominions, because for some reason my deluded mind thinks they need his help.

    Elites
    What? Elites? In a Witch Hunters army?

    Troops
    10 battle sisters (painted as Celestians and mostly with helmets, but I want them scoring)
    Heavy flamer, flamer, imaginifier, Veteran Superior with eviscerator, auspex, plasma pistol and book of st. lucius, rhino with smoke launchers and extra armour
    267 points (we cost more that a tactical squad, yay!)

    10 battle sisters
    2 melta guns, imaginifier, veteran superior with power maul, combi-melta, auspex and book of st. lucius, rhino with smoke launchers, extra armour and dozer blade
    264 points

    11 battle sisters
    flamer, heavy flamer, imaginifier, veteran superior with eviscerator, bolt pistol and auspex
    200 points (wow, we're actually costed okay without those gold plated rhinos)

    10 battle sisters
    flamer, storm bolter, veteran superior with eviscerator, bolt pistol and auspex
    162 points (we have the worthless special weapons and nobody loves us, maybe we should just throw our 7 bolter sisters in with the above squad and let the specialists rest in the box)

    Fast Attack
    6 Seraphim
    2 with twin hand flamers, melta bombs, veteran superior with plasma pistol, evicerator and book of st. lucius
    201 points

    6 Seraphim
    2 with twin hand flamers, melta bombs, veteran superior with plasma pistol, power sword and book of st. lucius
    210 points (we cost almost as much as an assault squad and there's only 6 of us and we're strength 3!)

    5 Dominions
    4 flamers, frag grenades, veteran superior with brazier of holy fire, power sword and book of st. lucius, immolator with extra armour and smoke launchers
    228 points

    Heavy Support
    Exorcist
    Dozer Blade
    140 points

    Exorcist
    Dozer Blade
    140 points

    1999 points. Or 1954 points since I'm not sure I ever want to fire those plasma pistols.

    Whoever prints those books must be making a killing.

    edit: took melta bombs off the seraphim with the evicerator and added a mantle of ophelia


    On the dark eldar list:

    I think splinter racks are cooler than trophies but it depends if you're going to be using the special weapons more than the rifles or not. You probably only need half as many trophies. Make sure you have splinter racks on the unit you want to give Sliscus' bonus to.

    Trophies on Ravager seems counterintuitive since ravagers shouldn't be near enemies ever.

    I think you really need to test the metagame to decide what guns the ravagers need, but I would start with one with disintegrators and one with lances for testing purposes.

    Sliscus is pretty meh. Deep Strike? Never. Worse stats than a normal lord for 150 points? Meh. Poison swords with super rending rather than an agoniser? Meh. Reroll combat drugs? Awesome if your army is all combat drugs, with one unit of wyches and 1 of reavers, meh.

    An Archon with agoniser and shadow field is only 110 points and an amazing combatant for that.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2010-11-15 at 04:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    Or that I could take a Captain who was actually worth it.
    I use the regular Codex and wish I had stock captains who were worth it

    Anyway, after biting the bullet and throwing over £30 at ebay, I have 8 more bolter sisters , a standard, a flamer and a storm bolter. So in theory I can make a proper sisters army now. Woo-hoo.

    Still a lot of wasted points due to having to conform to the wyswywyg of models designed for 2nd edition. I'm going to have to go on a plasma pistol sniping day when I get some pliers but until then...

    Spoiler
    Show

    HQ
    Prioress Agatha
    Blessed Weapon, Rosarius, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, book of st. lucius
    107 points

    Priest
    Power sword, brazier of holy fire, carapace armour
    65 points
    goes with Dominions, because for some reason my deluded mind thinks they need his help.

    Elites
    What? Elites? In a Witch Hunters army?

    Troops
    10 battle sisters (painted as Celestians and mostly with helmets, but I want them scoring)
    Heavy flamer, flamer, imaginifier, Veteran Superior with eviscerator, auspex, plasma pistol and book of st. lucius, rhino with smoke launchers and extra armour
    267 points (we cost more that a tactical squad, yay!)

    10 battle sisters
    2 melta guns, imaginifier, veteran superior with power maul, combi-melta, auspex and book of st. lucius, rhino with smoke launchers, extra armour and dozer blade
    264 points

    11 battle sisters
    flamer, heavy flamer, imaginifier, veteran superior with eviscerator, bolt pistol and auspex
    200 points (wow, we're actually costed okay without those gold plated rhinos)

    10 battle sisters
    flamer, storm bolter, veteran superior with eviscerator, bolt pistol and auspex
    162 points (we have the worthless special weapons and nobody loves us, maybe we should just throw our 7 bolter sisters in with the above squad and let the specialists rest in the box)

    Fast Attack
    6 Seraphim
    2 with twin hand flamers, melta bombs, veteran superior with plasma pistol, evicerator and book of st. lucius
    225 points (we cost almost as much as an assault squad and there's only 6 of us and we're strength 3!)

    6 Seraphim
    2 with twin hand flamers, melta bombs, veteran superior with plasma pistol, power sword and book of st. lucius
    210 points

    5 Dominions
    4 flamers, frag grenades, veteran superior with brazier of holy fire, power sword and book of st. lucius, immolator
    220 points

    Heavy Support
    Exorcist
    Dozer Blade
    140 points

    Exorcist
    Dozer Blade
    140 points

    2000 points exactly. Or 1955 points since I'm not sure I ever want to fire those plasma pistols.
    Actually doesn't look too bad a list - how many Faith Points are you getting out of it? Looks like it should be quite a few. Only thing I see lacking is AT, but that's more due to your models than intent I assume.


    On the dark eldar list:

    I think splinter racks are cooler than trophies but it depends if you're going to be using the special weapons more than the rifles or not. You probably only need half as many trophies. Make sure you have splinter racks on the unit you want to give Sliscus' bonus to.

    Trophies on Ravager seems counterintuitive since ravagers shouldn't be near enemies ever.
    I'm not too sold on Racks - you have to be embarked to use them, and it only works on rifles and pistols, not cannons (then I'd like them). Also even though Raiders are Fast, the guys on board are still limited to shooting if the vehicle moved less than 6".
    However I do plan on putting on the skull poles and extra guns on the models anyway, so I can easily change the list.

    The idea for trophies on Ravagers was A) I had the points, and B) if using the Duke's Deep Strike ability they'd be coming in later and having the extra LD bubble around (given my Raiders are likely craters by now) couldn't hurt.
    I'm a fan of strong LD in my armies.


    I think you really need to test the metagame to decide what guns the ravagers need, but I would start with one with disintegrators and one with lances for testing purposes.
    Most local armies seem a fairl mix of mech and infantry, leaning towards foot, so I think one of each should be ok. If not I'll just have to buy a third kit


    Sliscus is pretty meh. Deep Strike? Never. Worse stats than a normal lord for 150 points? Meh. Poison swords with super rending rather than an agoniser? Meh. Reroll combat drugs? Awesome if your army is all combat drugs, with one unit of wyches and 1 of reavers, meh.

    An Archon with agoniser and shadow field is only 110 points and an amazing combatant for that.
    I'm drawn to HQs who buff the army - when even the cheap ones cost over 100 and don't do much besides kill things prettyy well it feels like a waste to me. Sliscus works in my mind as a buff to his squad (more dakka) and other units (more reliable drugs), and allows some crazy risky moves (deep striking vehicles - I live on the edge baby!). I wouldn't be charging him into anyone, as it's better to be firing his super Rapid Fire guns, and given he is still rather choppy he might prove a deterrant to people assaulting the unit.

    However my custom Duke mini is easily passable as a regular Archon, so again it's no big deal to change (Archon body w Wych head and Banshee Exarch mirrorswords). For the same points I can get a Archon w Agoniser, Blast Pistol, Ghostplate, Shadowfield, haywire grenades and combat drugs. I can save 30 by dropping the pistol, grenades and drugs though, and that'd get me Racks for my warriors...

    That said, the Duke's slightly worse stats do bother me somewhat... I think it's just something I'll need to play out though (my plan for 2000pts includes more Wyches and Reavers though).
    Last edited by Zorg; 2010-11-15 at 01:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    I use the regular Codex and wish I had stock captains who were worth it
    You can at least take something other than power fists, power swords and terminator armour. Our best captain is twin lightning claws and a jump pack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Actually doesn't look too bad a list - how many Faith Points are you getting out of it? Looks like it should be quite a few. Only thing I see lacking is AT, but that's more due to your models than intent I assume.
    I'd have another melta sister squad if I had the models, instead of the flamer and storm bolter.

    Its about 9 faith points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    I'm drawn to HQs who buff the army
    Me too (its why I play Blood Angels), but for Dark Eldar i only see haemonculi that do that (maybe Sathonyx too and Rakarth of course).

    Anyway, you have the power from pain rule. Pure killing power does buff your army.

    Sliscus would be pretty awesome in planet strike or apocalypse. Unlike with Storm Ravens or Retrofire jets there's also nothing that says you can't assault out of a deepstrike raider, but I wouldn't try and pass the ruling past anyone.

    I think the best way to use reavers is in units of 6 where the only upgrades are 2 cluster caltrops. Then just bladevane every turn, dealing 4d3 S4 +2d6 S6 hits and getting a safe 3+ cover save. 172 points a unit though. If you want to shoot I'd rather have scourges and 1d3 S4 hits is about what you'd get on the charge with 2 pain points anyway, except you can't get hit back and don't need to kill 2 units first. You'll really piss your opponent off and its almost impossible to hunt the things down. Plus its exactly what that awesome bit of fluff near the start of the old dark eldar codex describes.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2010-11-15 at 05:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Aaaand to bump this over the old one, what say you all to my DE list?
    Most of your actual firepower is coming from the splinter rifles now that you canít bring two specials in a ten-man squad. Also you always want to be in transports, foot slogging dark eldar is a recipe for disaster. So 20 man squads are right out (and expensive to boot).

    Target priority is a very important part of playing dark eldar well. Another important part is being able to out maneuver your army, youíre the fastest army out there, both on the ground and in the air. So you shouldnít have too much trouble staying the hell away from strong units.

    For your army, Iíd drop all the syrabites, see theyíre designed for close combat, but the rest the warrior unit isnít. So Iíd drop them, and drop the blasters, dark lance and shredders. Take splinter cannons theyíre just as good as they used to be. Use the saved points to take splinter racks, as most of your firepower will benefit from the rerolls.

    As for the raiders, Iíd say try them with both, depending on what your up against theyíll both shine. The dark lances are good against mech lists. You have 6 dark lances from just the transports and the ravager. Iím not sold on the heat lance, it seems a bit low on the str side. But youíre still glancing on 3s vs everything save a monolith. I say run it for a bit and see how it works out.

    I say drop Sliscus and take an archon or succubus, upgrading the wyches to bloodbrides is optional but you want to throw the HQ in the transport with them (have to cut them down to 9). You canít assault after deep striking so thereís no real point in doing it with this unit. Iíd put a unit upgrade in there with a power weapon as well.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    HQ:
    Duke Sliscus
    my new favorite Hq option for the army (and a guilty pleasure since I hate special characters)
    Ignore the hate for him because stat wise he on par if not better than an equivalent archon who is roughly the same point cost without all the special items. his weapon at first glance looks bad since it does not wound on a 4+ like an agoniser but his weapon will wound more often. Armor saves vs low armor opponents are nearly as good as a power weapon and the duke can throw those out in spades. With his 2 rolls on drugs he can nearly guaranty a good result (which he benefits from)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Troops:

    - 9x Warriors w Sybarite (blast pistol, agoniser), Blaster
    - Raider w Flickerfield & trophies

    - 10x Warriors w Sybarite, Blaster, Dark Lance
    - Raider w Flickerfield & trophies

    - 10x Warriors w Sybarite (agoniser, phantasm), Shredder, Splinter Cannon
    - Raider w Flickerfield & trophies

    - 10x Wyches w Hekatrix (blast pistol, agoniser), Haywire grenades, 2x special weapons
    - Raider w Flickerfield & trophies
    these units lack focus. my suggestion with the duke is have a few hit team type units which are held in reserve and the other units start on the board and pop tanks and thin units before the other squads deepstrike close and assault.

    I would suggest your squatting squads look like
    - 10x Warriors Dark Lance
    - Raider w Flickerfield & Shock prow & lance

    this gives you 2 lances turn one if you are feeling lucky or a Str10 shot with the raider which auto hits. The unit squats in a piece of terrain (preferably on an objective)

    have 2 or 3 of these

    than use your wych squad like it is as your deep striking unit (perhapse get a second one)

    anyone who tries to tell you that you can not assault as the rules are currently written is wrong and take full advantage of that with strong assault units like the wychs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Fast Attack

    - 6x Reavers w Champion, Heat Lance, Blaster
    break these up would by suggestion, as it gives your opponent more to have to shoot at and more versatility such as hitting 2 squads with reavers. Also I would suggest if you have the points to invest in caltrops

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Also I'm undecided about Lances vs Disintegrators on my kites - I was thinking a Disintegrator for the Wyches and Lances for the Warriors. However I'm not sure if both or only one Ravager should have lances.
    lance on everything IMHO. The army may look like it can deal with mech but it still has a hard time doubly so if you want to deepstrike everything which means you may just trickle in.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    Most of your actual firepower is coming from the splinter rifles now that you canít bring two specials in a ten-man squad. Also you always want to be in transports, foot slogging dark eldar is a recipe for disaster. So 20 man squads are right out (and expensive to boot).
    foot sloggers are not necessarily bad provided they fit the purpose i.e. have a lance. Also raiders are cheaper than going 20 man for a second lance.

    However a 20 man unit is not necessarily a bad idea if you have a webway which can really devastate your opponent when a 20 man unit with 2 cannons and the duke come out within rapid fire range. but this is situational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Use the saved points to take splinter racks, as most of your firepower will benefit from the rerolls.
    Racks mean you are staying in your fragile transport and only moving 6". Your are willingly slowing yourself down which is counter to the way the army needs to work.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Silly thought:

    If your raider rams (and with shock prows and flat out movement it can do so at strength 10) and then gets destroyed (which it will on 4+ due to being a skimmer that just went flat out), your troops have to disembark and take a pinning test. However from then on it is your movement phase and your assault phase and since you just disembarked from an open topped transport you can shoot and assault (as long as you pass that pinning test on your leadership 9 or 10).

    However, don't try this with aethersails because then you're unit will die, since aethersails stop you disembarking and units that can't disembark from a dead transport are wiped out.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    Which is stupid. There have been plenty of times where I've wished I had combat tactics on my Blood Angels, or that my librarian had null zone or a better shooting power. Or that I could take a Captain who was actually worth it.

    If your army doesn't already have the things in it that are good in Blood Angels (assault squads with or without jump packs, more apothecaries than codex marines can take) then there's really no reason to switch codex. If your army is all tactical squads and terminators and land raiders (which seems to be the stock marine build around where I live) then you really should go with the main codex.
    You misunderstand. I didn't mean that I would be switching to the Blood Angels Codex, I meant that I need to study the Blood Angels Codex because pretty soon most of the fights that I'll be having will be against them. Knowing your enemy is important, after all.


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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    If your raider rams (and with shock prows and flat out movement it can do so at strength 10) and then gets destroyed (which it will on 4+ due to being a skimmer that just went flat out), your troops have to disembark and take a pinning test. However from then on it is your movement phase and your assault phase and since you just disembarked from an open topped transport you can shoot and assault (as long as you pass that pinning test on your leadership 9 or 10).
    actually you need the vehicle to explode if you move flat out. Moving flat out prevents you from disembarking. However when you explode you do not disembark you are placed in the crater. rule snafus are fun
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Razaele View Post
    You misunderstand. I didn't mean that I would be switching to the Blood Angels Codex, I meant that I need to study the Blood Angels Codex because pretty soon most of the fights that I'll be having will be against them. Knowing your enemy is important, after all.
    I was commenting on the other guys you described, not you.

    Here's Closet Skeleton's guide to killing Blood Angels.

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    Mephiston
    Shoot him with AP 2 as quickly as possible, otherwise you are dead. Despite being T6 he isn't immune to instant death, so force weaponing him is possible if he leaves your librarian alive somehow.

    Dante
    Not that good and easy to kill, he also encourages taking sanguinary guard, so he's double bad. He'll probably also deep strike giving you a turn to kill him while he does nothing.

    Tycho
    Overpointed.

    Seth
    YAAAAGH! He's pretty nasty. Usually found in a razorback with a cheap assault squad or honour guard. Don't throw T4 HQs at him. Thunderhammers are quite good against him, but they're good against anything.

    Astorath
    Pretty nasty, not much you can do about him except for try to kill him. Powerfists aren't bad of course.

    The Sanguinor
    Like Mephiston, but instead of T6 he has a 3+ invulnerable save and eternal warrior. So bad news basically. He also makes guys near him have more attacks. Probably the best special character in the book.

    Captains
    Don't worry about them, they aren't actually that good and you just power fist them.

    Reclusiarchs
    Like captains, but more expensive.

    Librarians
    The same as in the main book, except not since they only share 1 power in common (smite, which nobody takes except for me when I'm bored. What you have to worry about from these guys is them giving their friends a 5+ cover save, them lancing your tanks, or them buffing their units in combat, which they have a variety of ways of doing that can all be shut down with a power fist to the face. Since BA librarians never take terminator armour, they have no invulnerable save, so have fun killing them with just about any power weapon.

    That's the HQs.

    Elites
    Terminators
    Like the guys from your book, but storm shields are more expensive. Sometimes you'll see a terminator armoured sanguinary priest with these guys, but don't worry since his furious charge only helps lightning claws and feel no pain is irrelevant against anything that kills terminators.

    Sanguinary Priests
    The best thing in the book. Kill with high initiative power weapons as soon as possible. They only have 1 wound and the best invulnerable save they can get is the 5+ from terminator armour.

    Sanguinary Guard
    Just shoot them with AP2. They're kind of a joke unless there's 15 or more of them and then that's probably your enemy's entire army.

    Furioso
    Like an ironclad, except they can have some nasty claws. However if you have your own ironclads, his claws can't actually hurt you due to being S6. Even normal dreads can screw these guys over in combat. Also if you get any result except for shaken then you basically don't have to worry anymore, since if they only have one blood talon they can't do their cheesy butchery power. They can also have a few weirld things that are too many points to take.

    Librarian Furioso
    These things usually fly 12", but aren't actually that worse than a Furioso and can't have cheese talons. They can't have extra armour either so even glances can ruin their day. If you get a weapon destroyed, take the fist, not the force weapon, since S6 that can instant death with a test is worse than S10 that can instant death most things anyway.

    Troops
    Tactical marines
    The same as yours, but they can't run away with combat tactics, lol. But if there's a priest near them you will lose the firefight. If they're in their rhino just laugh and let them stay there will you kill other stuff.

    Assault marines
    Like yours, but actually worth it. Come in several flavours.
    Decent of angels big squad
    Crap, just shoot them.
    Decent of angels suicide squad
    Will fire some meltaguns at you and then die. This can be done better by sternguard, so don't worry.
    Razorback squad
    Nasty if there's a lot of them.
    Rhino squad
    Ok

    Scouts
    Like yours.

    Fast Attack
    Its all the same as yours here except for Baal Predators.

    If a Baal Predator uses its flamestorm cannon, it can be melta gunned pretty much immediately. If its using the assault cannon, it can be a pain. They can also outflank to screw you over when you least expect it or scout, to hurt you on turn 1 and then die.

    Heavy Support
    Like yours, except normal dreadnoughts are here.

    Vehicles are fast but expensive. They can more 6" and fire all their guns, so its harder to kill them in melee.

    The Stormraven
    Just shoot rockets at it until it dies. You should be able to see it from everywhere on the board.


    Okay, I probably shouldn't have bothered writing that since it isn't very useful and has been said better elsewhere and I want to go to bed.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    I don't know, I learned some things. Particularly that Blood Talons were only S6.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Hi

    I am planning on making the white scars army list that is shown on page 107 of the Space Marines Codex. I just wanted to know whether that would be an effective army? There will be a few small differences. Mainly just getting rid of the scouts as they dont fit the theme to my army and taking plasma in their place on the tactical squads.
    Spoiler
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    HQ
    Captain, Bike, Artificer Armour, Relic Blade, Hellfire Rounds, Storm Shield- 205 pts

    Command Squad, Bikes, Company Champion, Flamer x 2, Storm Shield x 2- 260 pts

    Troops
    Bike Squad x 5, Plasma gun x 2, Power Sword- 185 pts

    Bike Squad x 5, Melta gun x 2, Power Fist, Attack Bike, Multi-Melta- 235 pts

    Tactical Squad x10 Meltagun and Multi-Melta, Drop Pod -210 pts

    Tactical Squad x10, Plasma gun, Plasma Cannon, Rhino- 220 pts

    Tactical Squad x10, Plasma gun, Plasma Cannon- 185 pts

    Total 1500
    So what do you guys think?


    Also just a quick question can a librarian join a command squad and benefit from the apothecary's feel no pain rule?
    Last edited by Ricky S; 2010-11-16 at 09:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky S View Post
    I just wanted to know whether that would be an effective army?
    Depends on your opponent. But, probably not. Its a reasonable list. As in, everything in the list is geared towards its best potential. But, individual units don't win games. You'd probably need a few games with the list before you know if its any good.

    The units are solid. But I don't know how it works as an army.

    Also just a quick question can a librarian join a command squad and benefit from the apothecary's feel no pain rule?
    Yes.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    If your raider rams (and with shock prows and flat out movement it can do so at strength 10) and then gets destroyed (which it will on 4+ due to being a skimmer that just went flat out), your troops have to disembark and take a pinning test. However from then on it is your movement phase and your assault phase and since you just disembarked from an open topped transport you can shoot and assault (as long as you pass that pinning test on your leadership 9 or 10).
    HAHA!

    Oh this is hilarious, I'm going to have to make a comedy Wych-Cult-of-Speed now, whose entire tatics involve catapulting themselves screaming at the enemy from their burning vehicles. They purposely crash into terrain and enemy vehicles, just because they don't want to slow down to get off...

    Sadly, venom's can't get shock prows, but they can still attempt suicide on terrain.
    I don't suppose it's legal to voluntarily fail dangerous terrain tests?
    Last edited by Voidhawk; 2010-11-16 at 11:31 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    Sadly, venom's can't get shock prows, but they can still attempt suicide on terrain.
    I don't suppose it's legal to voluntarily fail dangerous terrain tests?
    again as I attempted to say this will kill the unit in the vehicle. Turbo boosting (moving more than 12") means you can not disembark. When a vehicle is destroyed (as per the destroyed result on the damage table) the unit must disembark, if they can not they all die.

    The loophole which allows assault is that an unit inside an exploding vehicle is placed in the crater they do not disembark into it.

    I would however run flicker fields so that you have the chance to destroy a vehicle and your raider is still AOK, add the grenades to also nerf LD of units in transports you kill.

    only problem is you add too much stuff and you are wasting an investment if they blow up
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    For your army, Iíd drop all the syrabites, see theyíre designed for close combat, but the rest the warrior unit isnít. So Iíd drop them, and drop the blasters, dark lance and shredders. Take splinter cannons theyíre just as good as they used to be. Use the saved points to take splinter racks, as most of your firepower will benefit from the rerolls.
    Too late, already made the models for them
    I don't trust having all my AT mounted on AV10 open top vehicles - I play against too many Tau armies for that to work very well (one guy takes six broadsides if he can).

    As for the raiders, Iíd say try them with both, depending on what your up against theyíll both shine. The dark lances are good against mech lists. You have 6 dark lances from just the transports and the ravager. Iím not sold on the heat lance, it seems a bit low on the str side. But youíre still glancing on 3s vs everything save a monolith. I say run it for a bit and see how it works out.
    I think I'll be doing one of each, worst comes to worst I can try for rear armour shots with the disintegrators - I'll get enough of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by crazedloon View Post
    my new favorite Hq option for the army (and a guilty pleasure since I hate special characters)

    Ignore the hate for him because stat wise he on par if not better than an equivalent archon who is roughly the same point cost without all the special items. his weapon at first glance looks bad since it does not wound on a 4+ like an agoniser but his weapon will wound more often. Armor saves vs low armor opponents are nearly as good as a power weapon and the duke can throw those out in spades. With his 2 rolls on drugs he can nearly guaranty a good result (which he benefits from)
    Yes, I've been thinking I should crunch the numbers or Sliscus' blades vs power weapon vs agoniser, but I haven't been bothered.



    these units lack focus. my suggestion with the duke is have a few hit team type units which are held in reserve and the other units start on the board and pop tanks and thin units before the other squads deepstrike close and assault.
    That is basically my plan - Wyches, lance squad (disembarked) and 9 man squad (w Duke) start on the board with the lance Ravager and bikes. The shredder squad and dissi Ravager deep strike in to hit de-transported infantry and control/contest objectives. Wyches hit things up close, Duke and co hit things mid-close, and lance guys hang back.



    anyone who tries to tell you that you can not assault as the rules are currently written is wrong and take full advantage of that with strong assault units like the wychs.
    I'm leery of assaulting out of Deep Strike - too much circumstancial evidence against it, and I prefer to err on the side that gives me the least advantage in a rules quandry like this.


    break these up would by suggestion, as it gives your opponent more to have to shoot at and more versatility such as hitting 2 squads with reavers. Also I would suggest if you have the points to invest in caltrops
    Splitting is a good idea, I don't know why I didn't do it in the first place really. I could drop the champion and give each unit a Talon, or one Caltrops though.






    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky S View Post
    Hi

    I am planning on making the white scars army list that is shown on page 107 of the Space Marines Codex. I just wanted to know whether that would be an effective army? There will be a few small differences. Mainly just getting rid of the scouts as they dont fit the theme to my army and taking plasma in their place on the tactical squads.
    Spoiler
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    HQ
    Captain, Bike, Artificer Armour, Relic Blade, Hellfire Rounds, Storm Shield- 205 pts

    Command Squad, Bikes, Company Champion, Flamer x 2, Storm Shield x 2- 260 pts

    Troops
    Bike Squad x 5, Plasma gun x 2, Power Sword- 185 pts

    Bike Squad x 5, Melta gun x 2, Power Fist, Attack Bike, Multi-Melta- 235 pts

    Tactical Squad x10 Meltagun and Multi-Melta, Drop Pod -210 pts

    Tactical Squad x10, Plasma gun, Plasma Cannon, Rhino- 220 pts

    Tactical Squad x10, Plasma gun, Plasma Cannon- 185 pts

    Total 1500
    So what do you guys think?

    Only thing I don't like is the Captain being so expensive and the last Tac squad being on foot - that could prove a big handicap in a DoW game as they'd either have to be on the board, or will be walking on.
    Gameplay wise it may suffer from the bike squads being only 5 man and fairly killable (or breakable). Otherwise I think it's a solid looking list but, as Cheese said, don't know how it works together.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    I'm leery of assaulting out of Deep Strike - too much circumstancial evidence against it, and I prefer to err on the side that gives me the least advantage in a rules quandry like this.
    The rule book says that the only move a deep striking unit can make in the movement phase is to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle, implying that the occupants of a transport vehicle that deepstrikes are deepstriking themselves and therefore cannot assault. Its just that the Storm Raven rules have to spell this out for idiots and the Retrofire jets rules stop it in another way.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Donít bring one big 20 man squad of warriors, instead bring two ten man squads as thatíll give you two dark lances and two scoring units for about the same points cost. Also donít worry about how your syrabites are kitted out so much, most people donít complain about wysiwyg unless its like a tournament setting or your trying to sneak things buy your opponent, just tell them theyíre not kitted out right.

    Also I would like to point out that you cannot assault out of a deep strike. Sliscusís rule simply confers deep strike to your transports so you donít have to buy retofire jets. It says nothing about allowing you to assault in the same turn. This is sort of the GW golden rule: ďyou cannot assault after a deep strikeĒ, unless your playing planet strike (well ok thereís like two models that can, but theyíre the rare exception to the rule). Its partly what screws chaos daemons over so badly (that and coming down piecemeal) and why itís a not great idea to put assault terminators in a drop pod. Trying it will result in a rules argument, and people will call shenanigans on you, its also a great way to get kicked out of a tournament.

    Smashing tau ought to be more or less a cakewalk for DE now. Bring wyches instead of warriors and zip into his face, jump out and assault him. Then watch him cry. Focus his tanks until you bring them down, a voidraven bomber will give him a hard time (str9 lance weapon vs armor 13? You need 3s to glance) not to mention its missiles which should have no problem killing kroot or fire warriors.

    If he gets the initiative and you canít steal it back? Easy just donít deploy and bring it all in as reserves. Itís a great tactic for when you roll dawn of war. in this situation, Sliscus may very well be a good idea, as you wonít need to buy retrofire jets, and can still shoot (benefit of being a fast skimmer). So you can drop in behind his gun line, tanks etc and blasticate them with blasters and dark lances. Kabalite trueborn are good for this tactic. I kitted mine out with 4 blasters and two splinter cannons, it gives me higher Ap and ranged than regular splinter weapons.

    If you know what youíre up against then fighting it wonít be too hard. Its metagaming but thatís part of the game. itís a bit harder to build an all comers army with DE.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Hmm, just read through the OP - seems that we've let the opening spiele lapse a little bit. How long has it been now since Blood Angels aren't just "ordinary Marines that can take lots of Jump Packs" ? Might be a good idea, at some point, to go back through the list and see what else is out of place - pretty sure that Space Wolves could use a little more detail too

    No worries, just a thought. I'm currently studying up on Codex: Daemonhunters, so maybe I'll have some more to add soon.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    Donít bring one big 20 man squad of warriors, instead bring two ten man squads as thatíll give you two dark lances and two scoring units for about the same points cost.
    Er, I'm not and never have been taking a 20 man squad, so that's well and truely covered


    Also donít worry about how your syrabites are kitted out so much, most people donít complain about wysiwyg unless its like a tournament setting or your trying to sneak things buy your opponent, just tell them theyíre not kitted out right.
    I complain...

    Ok, not much but having leaders with weapons when they aren't even there is too far IMO.


    Smashing tau ought to be more or less a cakewalk for DE now. Bring wyches instead of warriors and zip into his face, jump out and assault him. Then watch him cry. Focus his tanks until you bring them down, a voidraven bomber will give him a hard time (str9 lance weapon vs armor 13? You need 3s to glance) not to mention its missiles which should have no problem killing kroot or fire warriors.
    My regular Tau opponent plays the 'reserve everything' game with things that aren't suits, hammerheads or broadsides and has the most infuriating luck at keeping them off the board until he needs them.

    If he gets the initiative and you canít steal it back? Easy just donít deploy and bring it all in as reserves. Itís a great tactic for when you roll dawn of war. in this situation, Sliscus may very well be a good idea, as you wonít need to buy retrofire jets, and can still shoot (benefit of being a fast skimmer). So you can drop in behind his gun line, tanks etc and blasticate them with blasters and dark lances. Kabalite trueborn are good for this tactic. I kitted mine out with 4 blasters and two splinter cannons, it gives me higher Ap and ranged than regular splinter weapons.

    If you know what youíre up against then fighting it wonít be too hard. Its metagaming but thatís part of the game. itís a bit harder to build an all comers army with DE.
    Another part of why I like the Duke - he give me more options, making a fairly normal list much more unpredicatble through his 'free' deep striking.
    Last edited by Zorg; 2010-11-16 at 02:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    If he gets the initiative and you canít steal it back? Easy just donít deploy and bring it all in as reserves.
    Don't you have to deploy everything before you roll to seize the initiative?

    I'd take agonisers on my Sybarite if I had one spare. Same reason my "never intend to get into close combat" tactical squads have power fists. Even Dark Eldar can't guarantee having the mobility to not get assaulted.

    One game my Warriors were fighting Imperial Fists Scouts in bolstered cover and couldn't get through the 2+ cover save, so they assaulted and didn't do very well despite outnumbering the scouts due to their T4. My Sybarite had at best a venom blade.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2010-11-16 at 03:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    The rule book says that the only move a deep striking unit can make in the movement phase is to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle, implying that the occupants of a transport vehicle that deepstrikes are deepstriking themselves and therefore cannot assault.
    That's never been the case. A Deep Striking vehicle counts as moving at Combat Cruising Speed (18"), and that's why they can't Assault out of a vehicle.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-11-16 at 08:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    That's never been the case. A Deep Striking vehicle counts as moving at Combat Speed (12"), and that's why they can't Assault out of a vehicle.
    no the rub and the reason that it is a gray area (since they never actually say a unit in a vehicle counts as deepstriking) is that you can assault out of an open top vehicle if you can disembark (in this case you can because combat speed is slow enough to disembark) Add on to that the fact that every other open top or assault vehicle which can deepstrike calls out assault makes it reasonable to assume that you can assault. Now I assume it will be clarified in the errata
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    There's

    In the movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep-striking transport vehicle.

    and, following "Vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed"

    the paragraph on page 95 is:

    In that turn's Assault phase, however, these units may not launch an assult (even if they have the "fleet" special rule) unless clearly stated in their special rules- they are too disrupted by their deep strike move.

    So, Sliscus's guys count as "having moved at cruising speed" so they can disembark (open-topped),

    but, as the rules say they cannot move in the movement phase (besides disembark) and cannot assault in the assault (unless explicitly specified otherwise)- no assault.

    If a unit's dedicated transport gains the Deep Strike rule, then it would fit that the unit is "deep-striking" as well- and thus follows the rules for it.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-11-16 at 07:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    If a unit's dedicated transport gains the Deep Strike rule, then it would fit that the unit is "deep-striking" as well- and thus follows the rules for it.
    and that is the gray area as it only "fits"
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    In Codex Space Marines, Drop Pods "always enter play using the Deep Strike rule" but the units they are bought for, don't have Deep Strike.

    Yet, when a unit comes onto the table via Drop Pod, it is called;

    "the unit deep strikes via drop pod".

    So- same principle.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    That's never been the case. A Deep Striking vehicle counts as moving at Combat Cruising Speed (18"), and that's why they can't Assault out of a vehicle.
    Cruising Speed is 6-12 and you can assault out of an open topped vehicle that does that. Flat-out is moving 12+

    Which you probably know and are just momentarily confused.

    Trying to re-work my tyranid army. Currently I've cut out the genestealers and Old One Eye while adding more zoanthropes, giving me:

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    Venom Cannon, Lash whip and bonesword, old adversary, armoured shell, leech essense, paroxysm
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    Elites
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    120 points

    2 Zoanthropes
    120 points

    1 Venomthrope
    55 points

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    4 Tyranid Warriors
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    3 Tyranid Warriors
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    15 termagants
    90 points

    Fast Attack
    3 Raveners
    90 points

    Heavy Support
    Trygon
    Regeneration
    225 points


    That gives me 1245 points. Which is a points bracket in itself, but not one I'm likely to play and my gutted army needs something to replace the genestealers that just had no synergy with it.

    I have 8 genestealers I'm going to convert into Ymgarls who might fit in.

    I was thinking of 2 more venomthropes and a ton of hormagaunts and maybe a second brood of termagants. That should take it up to 1500.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    The single, 15-man brood of termagants seems pretty pointless to me. I'm not a 'nids player, but I would think you take gaunts in force or not at all.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "the unit deep strikes via drop pod".
    That's fairly tenuous though. It's hardly an ironclad argument that arriving via a deep striking transport requires a unit to be subject to the same deep strike restrictions. There's similarly circumstantial evidence to the contrary in the same codex.

    The drop pod assault rule goes out of its way to include a specific prohibition on assaulting after arriving--which would be redundant if the transported unit were assumed to count as deep striking already. One could easily infer that if not for this specific restriction, it in fact would be permissible to assault out of an open-topped transport.

    Elsewhere in the same book you have the Land Speeder Storm, also an open-topped transport that can deep strike, and it has no explicit restriction on being able to assault out of it. If the restriction on assaulting out of a drop pod is only there to clarify an existing rule from the BRB-- as opposed to being a specific restriction on Drop Pods-- why is this clarification not also included in the LSS entry?

    The fact is, every deep striking transport in the game besides those using Sliscus's rule and the LSS include a specific restriction saying "You may not assault after doing so." It seems to me, if that were already an assumed fact of the rules, such repeated restrictions or "clarifications" wouldn't be necessary.

    At the same time, I'm certainly willing to acknowledge the potential beardiness of trying such a tactic in game, and without an FAQ I would never try it in any of my own games. And I think most people would be willing to agree that it's a fairly obvious logical jump from "transport deep strikes" to "unit inside deep strikes," however it's not explicit RAW. It's a murky area not well covered by the rules, and while people seem eager to jump to fill in the blanks with their own conclusions, the reality is the rules simply don't cover it 100%.

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