Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Closet_Skeleton]

According to the stipulations from this ridiculous loophole, you could have your Wolf Lords running around with Fenrisian Wolves on Thunderwolves.

...

Yeah, but why? They'd be 5 points more than real thunderwolf cavalry.

All you'd get is... ablative wounds at T5. Not bad since a thunderwolf lord can operate on his own fine.

I think the differance is that fenrisian wolves are wargear, while servitors are clearly part of the unit composition.

Wolf Lords
Unit composition: 1 wolf lord

BA Techmarine
Unit composition: 1 techmarine, 0-5 servitors.

Compare to Iron Priests who are similar
Unit composition: 1 iron priest, 0-4 cyberwolves, 0-3 thrall servitors

Which also clearly states that only the iron priest can take a bike or wolf, while the BA techmarine doesn't.

[Penguinizer]

I'm curious. What do the non-GW gaming stores you go to think of scratchbuilds?

I'm thinking of getting some scratchbuilt tanks from a friend of mine. I know the game store I mainly go to doesn't really care as long as you're actually trying, but I'm curious about how others take it.

[lord_khaine]

This is the list you are planning on adding the autarch to?
Does the guardians have a spiritseer for the wraithlords or are you planning on holding back the seer council to help them along?

If the guardians are going to be moving with the wraithlords to keep them going then I would look at putting the autarch there to make them more dangerous and to help them survive longer. (survive longer by making them less likely to get assaulted and have more killing power for anything that gets too close, and potentially to assign a few wounds to)

If the council stays with the wraithlords then chances are one of the dire avenger squads will spend most games guarding an objective and I would put him with them for the same reasons I would put him with the guardians.

Yes, and the Guardians does also have a spirit Seer, i normaly place them somewhere central, with both Wraithlords close by to draw attention from the enemy.

I was also wondering about the rules for cover to mounstrous creatures, could i shield my wraithlord by placing another monstrous creature, or a Wave serpent, in front of it?

[Erloas]

Yes, and the Guardians does also have a spirit Seer, i normaly place them somewhere central, with both Wraithlords close by to draw attention from the enemy.

I was also wondering about the rules for cover to mounstrous creatures, could i shield my wraithlord by placing another monstrous creature, or a Wave serpent, in front of it?

MC and vehicles use true line of sight, with ~50% of the model needing to be covered to get cover. So chances are a WS or Wraithlord could fairly easily provide cover for another wraithlord.

[lord_khaine]

Thanks, this should help a lot keeping my Wraithlord team alive while still letting them moving into assult position.

[Tazar]

I'm curious. What do the non-GW gaming stores you go to think of scratchbuilds?

I'm thinking of getting some scratchbuilt tanks from a friend of mine. I know the game store I mainly go to doesn't really care as long as you're actually trying, but I'm curious about how others take it.

Speaking as someone who gamed at a FLGS, and worked at a FLGS for a year, we'd have no problem with it as long as it was of decent quality; i.e, like don't show up with a toy robot and call it a Stompa or something.

As far as tournaments go, that could differ, but for regular gaming you'd be 100% fine.

[Cheesegear]

How do you guys get your extra weapons? Ie Powerswords, lightning claws, etc. GW could make people's lives so much easier if they stocked an upgrades box filled with all the special weapons.

I know its not ideal, but I usually get a Commander Box whenever I buy a new Squad in Power Armour. I also have a ton of weapons left over from Black Templars' sprues that I used when I was making my 1st Company veterans. The Black Templars box is an upgrade box. What you want already exists. You just need a good file, I guess.

The Command Squad box also has a bunch of stuff.

Where you find upgrades;
Tactical Squad; All the special weapons you want. No Power Fist or Power Weapon. Missile Launcher.
Assault Squad; Two Power Weapons and a Power Fist (give to Tactical Squad).
Devastator Squad; All the Heavy weapons that you want. And a Power Fist for some reason.

Commander Box; One of every weapon you could want on a Commander. Except for a Combi-Flamer. Depending on your personal anal-levels, it doesn't contain a Relic Blade.
Command Squad; One of every special weapon, and a Power Fist and Power Weapon (which is a bit larger than all the other Power Weapons, use this for a Relic Blade).

Black Templars box; Two of every special weapon. Four Power Weapons and two Power Fists. Sweet tabards and a couple of cool helments, I like the MkIV. If you don't play a Chapter of Dorn, you might want a file and a pair of sharp clippers.

Dark Angels box; Comes with the Tactical Squad upgrade sprue. You also get three Power Weapons and a Power Fist.

My favourites are the Dark Angels box and the Black Templars upgrades box.

I'm curious. What do the non-GW gaming stores you go to think of scratchbuilds?

In my experience, the only reason they mind is that you've got models that you didn't spend money in the store for. This is one of the primary reasons GW wants to discourage it. Rogue Traders, while very annoyed with you, probably wont kick you out.

The players though, your actual opponents, again, in my experience, nobody cares where you got your models from so long as they look like what they're supposed to look like. Bad Conversions are treated to much, much ridicule. A Bad Conversion is often considered almost like a proxy model, and something you should fix or get rid of as soon as you can.

[Penguinizer]

Hmm, ok. They're pretty good. You can make out what they're supposed to be, and they look the part. It probably won't be an issue in that case.

[Razaele]

What about models that GW has yet to produce? Swarmlord, a Master of the Forge on a Bike with a Conversion Beamer, etc. What if you plan on taking those in an official tournament and just decided to make one of your own?

[Cheesegear]

What about models that GW has yet to produce? Swarmlord, a Master of the Forge on a Bike with a Conversion Beamer, etc. What if you plan on taking those in an official tournament and just decided to make one of your own?

Last I checked, any model in any game needs to be ~70% GW model to take it to a tournament. Although I know this number varies. Mostly, I think if it looks like a GW model, you're alright. I mean, it's not like a Master of the Forge is difficult to make.

Swarmlords, likewise, are easy to make. Hell, you're even given a picture of him in the Codex. I've seen a couple. Usually Hive Tyrant-Carnifex Hybrids with extra Green Stuff.

[Tazar]

What about models that GW has yet to produce? Swarmlord, a Master of the Forge on a Bike with a Conversion Beamer, etc. What if you plan on taking those in an official tournament and just decided to make one of your own?

Those are easy enough to convert with GW bitz, which they won't have a problem once.

[Renegade Paladin]

So, no one has anything to say on the subject of Guard armor? Fair, I suppose, but I still think a vehicle guide linked in the OP that has glaring issues with misunderstanding the Ordnance Barrage rules is something of a problem.

[Tazar]

So, no one has anything to say on the subject of Guard armor? Fair, I suppose, but I still think a vehicle guide linked in the OP that has glaring issues with misunderstanding the Ordnance Barrage rules is something of a problem.

I don't play with or against Guard enough to comment on it; all I know is that Guard armor is that it's best to stay away from it.

[Renegade Paladin]

I don't play with or against Guard enough to comment on it; all I know is that Guard armor is that it's best to stay away from it.

You can run, but you can't run far enough.

[Tazar]

You can run, but you can't run far enough.

QFT.

Shooting across an entire 10' Apocalypse table with a basilisk to shell my friend's squad in the opposite corner was priceless.

[Razaele]

Last I checked, any model in any game needs to be ~70% GW model to take it to a tournament. Although I know this number varies. Mostly, I think if it looks like a GW model, you're alright. I mean, it's not like a Master of the Forge is difficult to make.

Swarmlords, likewise, are easy to make. Hell, you're even given a picture of him in the Codex. I've seen a couple. Usually Hive Tyrant-Carnifex Hybrids with extra Green Stuff.

I see. It's a shame that scratch-built models aren't allowed in tournaments. I have a friend who is an amazing sculptor, and his Tyranid models are just incredible. And they're a whole lot cheaper too.

[Tazar]

I see. It's a shame that scratch-built models aren't allowed in tournaments. I have a friend who is an amazing sculptor, and his Tyranid models are just incredible. And they're a whole lot cheaper too.

That's pretty much exactly why they don't want the models in tournaments, unsurprisingly.

Same reason why people wouldn't want you using a pirated version of, say, Counterstrike to enter a tournament.

[Klose_the_Sith]

ARGH

One of my Marines that I glued the other day looks so incredibly awesome. Normally I have so much trouble assembling 40k kits, but now someone looks badass ...

... in time for a week that I can't go to any form of game. I'm going to miss this weeks gaming club due to a mix of my last essay for school ever and social engagements.

I so wanna take these guys out somewhere and kick ass, but I have no chance. Someone go table their opponent and write a battle report so I can live vicariously through their conquest? /

I see. It's a shame that scratch-built models aren't allowed in tournaments. I have a friend who is an amazing sculptor, and his Tyranid models are just incredible. And they're a whole lot cheaper too.

Well, it depends on the tournament you're at. Scratch builds would be allowed at the local ANUcon, probably because in no way is it an 'official' event. The only sponsor they have is a web-store and it's organised by a bunch of uni students.

Of course, they require that your models look like what they're supposed to and etc., but trying to complain about that is pointless.

[Ninja Chocobo]

I'm curious. What do the non-GW gaming stores you go to think of scratchbuilds?

Non-GW?
The Battlewagon, Warkopta, Treekin and Treeman I've posted in the mini thread, I painted at a GW store.

I think you will be fine.

Last I checked, any model in any game needs to be ~70% GW model to take it to a tournament. Although I know this number varies. Mostly, I think if it looks like a GW model, you're alright. I mean, it's not like a Master of the Forge is difficult to make.

In Australia this is so very not so. Mostly due to GW not running any notable tournaments apart from possibly Conflict.

The GW store kicks up more of a fuss over the Brettonian player with half of his horses un-ridden than over my 70% Tamiya Battlewagon.

[Cheesegear]

Fair, I suppose, but I still think a vehicle guide linked in the OP that has glaring issues with misunderstanding the Ordnance Barrage rules is something of a problem.

It's really not. But I'll explain later.
The problem is, that I'm the one who wrote it, and, due to the way that this board works, I can't edit a post in a thread that has been locked.
Second, I'm not the OP of this thread anymore so I can't edit it anymore. Which is one of the criticisms I had in the last thread when somebody else posted my work.

Anyway, since you directly criticise my writings, I suppose I'm the only one, really, qualified to reply.

Though in the post you linked at the top of the spoiler, I should point out that while Armor 14 doesn't quite equal T11 thanks to glancing hits, it is still awesome.

Yeah. I said that already.

"However, AV is worse than Toughness because of the simple fact of Glancing Hits. Glancing Hits, are basically a -1 Modifier for whatever you would normally need To Wound. Which means that your vehicle effectively 'loses' a point of Toughness (Bringing AV14 down to T10 for the purposes of Glancing Hits)."

using for rapid infantry deployment. Good idea/bad idea?

Since you can claim objectives from inside a vehicle; No. It's not a good idea. Imperial Guard do not leave their vehicles if they can help it. Especially Veterans, when the Chimera has more than enough Fire Points to keep them happy from inside the vehicle.

I currently have plans for an airborne assault list at 1500 points using Vendettas. Should I put some Valkyries into the mix to allow greater tactical flexibility, or stick with the lascannons?

Actually, you're supposed to have an army of Valkyries, and add the Vendettas for tactical flexibility. The Valkyries are the transport vehicle. Vendettas are not. I did write this.

You forgot the Eradicator. It's low Strength (for a tank's main gun) and low AP, but it strikes me that the ability to ignore cover saves is potentially huge. Thoughts?

You point this out to me as if I didn't already know, or hasn't been pointed out before.
Yes. I did forget the Eradicator. But, as I said before, there's not a lot I can do about it now.

Anyway, read what you wrote again.

It's low Strength (for a tank's main gun) and low AP

When your other options include proper Leman Russes with good strength and AP (for less points too!), you shouldn't even be considering an Eradicator. Second, a Colossus does the same thing, at AP3 instead. Which is far more valuable, and at Ordnance Barrage. Which is much better.

Ultimately though, I like to think the fact that I 'forgot' about it, now says to people "Hah, this tank is so useless its not even worth remembering."

Don't put Pask in a Vanquisher? But that's exactly what GW did in their article on putting together a Leman Russ.

/Sigh. Just because GW did it, doesn't mean that you should, or that its even a good idea. As I've pointed out more than a few times, GW stock armies tend to go for 'balance' and 'fun'. Its why the armies that are Codex-pictured and those in BatReps for White Dwarf are...Lackluster. But, then, White Dwarf isn't really for competitive players, now is it?

More seriously, why not? It seems to me that if you're shooting a weapon that's pretty much going to kill a tank if it hits (extra d6 for armor penetration, meaning 2d6+8, average 15, 16 if you have Pask and the tank stayed still, when armor values max out at 14), you want to hit with that weapon; BS 4 is a large improvement.

Because of Overkill/Inefficiency. The only thing Pask does in a Vanquisher is make it better at what its already pretty damn good at doing (like He'Stan and Hammernators and/or Suicide Sternguard). As I've said in much later posts that don't get referenced, Pask works 'best' in an Exterminator, or Emperor forbid, a Punisher. Pask in a Punisher makes a Punisher worth taking.

It seems to me that the Hydra would be a godsend when fighting Dark Eldar, what with all the talk of zipping around in skimmers. Truth?

Yes. But this sentence kind of smacks of tailoring, doesn't it?

One of the better players at the local store is picking up a DE army and I'd like to be able to send them packing.

Considering that I've read twice so far that you're planning on taking a Veterans army...

"Definitely use [Hydras] if you field Veterans though."

1.) Basilisk.

With no justification at all, I can see why I would just take your word for it.
Basilisk. Just, Basilisk. I know about the decline of TV Tropes too.

"Just pay the extra 25 points for a Leman Russ Battle Tank. Or, about the same for Devil Dogs."

You're playing on a 6x4' table. The 72" from a Battle Tank is plenty, and comes on a Leman Russ chassis with Lumbering Behemoth and trip-Heavy Bolters and everything.

A Basilisk just isn't worth it. Hooray! Nice range. Not that you'll ever need more than ~80"...At worst (frankly, I've never shot anything at more than 60"...). S9 AP3, how exciting. The Battle Tank is just as good. And more reliable since it doesn't die instantly.

A Medusa is much better bang for you buck than a Basilisk since a Medusa kills Terminators, and has better Strength.

Basilisks are the second or third-most over-rated Tank in the game. That's all there is to it.

You've made a fairly large rules mistake here, one that I didn't see corrected in the thread this post was originally in.

There was no mistake. I simply left it out because its an implicit part of the rules that I expected people to understand. Could it use clarification? Yes. Is it too late to do anything about it? Sure is.

Second, due to the greatness that is Open-Topped AV10, most people tend to put their Ordnance Tanks out of LoS, leaving them to fire indirectly all the time.

Once you're starting to fire directly, you're doing something wrong. The enemy is too close.

Wasn't planning on either of these, though the Manticore would be a lot more tempting if it were just Ordnance Barrage 3, or even 2, rather than d3. I despise randomness in how many attacks or whether you get to attack; it makes planning difficult to impossible.

Since I wrote that, I've been looking around and since...I don't know, around four or five months ago, some players have started to swear by Deathstrikes. For me, they're too unreliable. But, apparently that's not stopping anyone from taking them. Apparently when you get a bunch of them and they fire on the first turn (gambling is fun!), you can win on the first turn.

I'm tempted to say that [Pintle Weapons] are [worth it], but then again if I do it for all my Chimeras, that's almost another veteran squad.

You answered your own question.

Someone go table their opponent and write a battle report so I can live vicariously through their conquest? /

...I tried. But, that White Scars base-army that you told me to run with just wasn't impressive enough. I'll post a Battle Report sometime soon. Maybe tomorrow if I'm not already playing another game.

[LCP]

With no justification at all, I can see why I would just take your word for it.
Basalisk. Just, Basalisk.

Basilisk. Although I can see why you'd refuse to accept the correction without supporting evidence - it's really tricky to find.

[Cheesegear]

Basilisk. Although I can see why you'd refuse to accept the correction without supporting evidence - it's really tricky to find.

Seems like someone didn't get the joke.

Or, maybe you're serious...

First, neither of those links are helpful and don't give any supporting evidence to how good the Basilisk is, so, maybe it is tricky to find?
(I checked the first three pages...And found absolutely nothing)

Unless you're trying to make a point? About how I didn't do my research or something?

In which case you're better off linking to a specific thread or post that shows me just how good a Basilisk is even though when I use my own they tend to perform amazingly poorly in comparison to other things (like a Medusa or Battle Tank), or maybe you could point me to a competitive Imperial Guard list that uses Basilisks (that is better than other Competitive Lists that don't use Basilisks) that I could try out in the next week?

[LCP]

I was simply pointing out that it definitely is spelt 'Basilisk', not 'Basalisk'. If there's a joke in there, then yes, I missed it. I still do

[Cheesegear]

I was simply pointing out that it definitely is spelt 'Basilisk', not 'Basalisk'. If there's a joke in there, then yes, I missed it. I still do

Ah, fair enough then. lol. I fixed it.

Anyway, the 'joke' is that "X, just X" is not a valid argument.

[LCP]

Ah. I'm fairly sure his one-word sentence was meant to be about the spelling too. Looks like a big ol' misunderstanding.

[V'icternus]

The Basilisk is, to me anyway, a psychological weapon. It's not going to really help my forces, and it is highly unreliable... but it can be used as a giant, template-placing target to try and lure your enemy into trying to destroy it when they could be attacking other, more useful things.

The more overrated a model, the better it works as a distraction. And just the act of launching a template at someone can make them go "curses, templates blatin' mah doods".

I'd still never take one of the bloody things when I can just get more of other, better things to stick in my army, but it does have value, in that you don't have to care if it blows up.


Though I am by no means well-versed in the strategies of such armies. Pay me no mind and go back to your "tanks" or whatever.
Me and my 'Crons will be sitting over here in the corner waiting for a new Codex.

[Cheesegear]

Ah. I'm fairly sure his one-word sentence was meant to be about the spelling too. Looks like a big ol' misunderstanding.

Ah. I see. When I look back at it, maybe it is.

But, like I said, there's nothing I can do about it anymore short of copy-pasting the post again and fixing up a few things here and there, which I could do. But, I think its fine as-is, and I haven't had any PMs about Imperial Guard tanks or asking about that post in a long while.

[Renegade Paladin]

Ah. I see. When I look back at it, maybe it is.

That's because it was. What else would I be referring to? I know better than to make a one-word point as some sort of argument.

[ShadowFighter15]

Couple of new things've gone up on Forge World. A more detailed Ironclad Dreadnought and the Land Raider variant we all saw a while ago, the Achilles.

Only real difference from the normal Land Raider (unless they change its entry in IA 10 at some point) is that it's got a Thunderfire Cannon - I'm AFC at the moment so I can't check its stats against the normal, codex TFC - and twin-linked multi-melta sponsons. Can transport six models, but I can't remember how many models the normal one can carry.

Oh; and it gets to ignore the Melta and Lance weapon properties while reducing damage chart rolls by 1 (unless its hit with Destroyer weapons). It is more expensive than a normal Land Raider, but something about the weapon choice is bugging me. A TFC is really best-suited to long-range bombardment (that's my impression at least), but multi-meltas are relatively short-ranged weapons. Just seems to be an odd combination. Still; at least Blood Angels can't get access to it, so no Deep-Striking LR Achilles*.


*Yes; I know DSing Land Raiders is stupid, but the Achilles is meant for use in Apocalypse, where there might be a few wider areas for them to come down safely. Then again, I've never played Apocalypse nor seen it played, so I may be totally mistaken.

[Closet_Skeleton]

What's that? Rare except among the Imperial Fists and their successors?

Looks like I might not be buying another land raider crusader after all.

It has a 60" range gun. Even if BA could take it it wouldn't need to deepstrike in Apocalypse.

Pity it only carries 6 guys. That's... a command squad. Black Templars don't do 5 man squads, even my command squad is 10 man, which will probably change in the new book. The Achiles is also not an assault vehicle.

Thunderfire and multi-melta is a stupid combination, but immunity to melta means that it isn't so scared about getting close and power of the machine spirit means that it can hit two targets.