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2010-11-16, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-17, 12:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
I didn't used to post criteria, but since the contest started allowing disputes of scores (usually on rules grounds) it's a good idea to let people know up front what will fly and what won't. Criteria aren't strictly enforced or anything, but for the competitors it's good to know if you are going to dock in elegance because you dislike Unearthed Arcana or hit them in power if they are a basic core melee fighter (those are JUST EXAMPLES guys, not my actual criteria, you can read it above).My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2010-11-17, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-17, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
I don't know if it's just me, but I sometimes have trouble following the code columns in the table. So I made a slight modification to it - use it if you like.
SpoilerNAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features
1st|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
2nd|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
3rd|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
4th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
5th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
6th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
7th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
8th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
9th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
10th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
11th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
12th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
13th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
14th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
15th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
16th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
17th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
18th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
19th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
20th|New Class Level|+BaB|+Fort|+Ref|+Will|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]Last edited by Adumbration; 2010-11-17 at 08:03 AM.
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2010-11-17, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Hm, I do share your concerns. Adumbration. Filling the tables is a major pain and sometimes it leads to mistakes. We need the organization, though.
I like Adumbration's table, I believe it could be an alternative to teh one we use... but having different tables might confuse judges and contestants alike. So I really dunno.
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2010-11-17, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-17, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
The Drunken Master's Improved Improvised weapons ability allows him to use long weapons as reach weapons according to their length. Complete Warrior's section on Improvised Weapons states that long weapons have 10 foot reach and must be used two-handed. Does the Drunken Master's ability then mean:
1. Drunken Masters, unlike other improvised weapon users, can use long weapons with greater than 10 foot reach.
2. Drunken Masters, unlike other improvised weapon users, can use long weapons without using them two-handed.
3. Both.
or 4. Neither?Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
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2010-11-17, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
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2010-11-17, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
I would interpret it to mean that "reach weapons according to the their length" means if the weapons are long enough, they are reach weapons, which double your natural reach. There are no provisions in the rules for melee weapons with a longer reach except the whip and whip dagger, which really work more like ranged weapons.
As for using them one handed - I would say there are some things you could use as an improvised whip, but they would follow the rules for a whip, provoking AoO's and whatnot. Any larger items (like the ladder mentioned as an example) would require two hands.
In other words, use common sense.
Edit: Just noticed something else - the text says "improvised weapons with many protrusions (such as chairs) provide a +2 bonus on opponents' disarm attempts." That seems like an editing mistake as it's supposed to be an "improvement" and the other weapons in the game with "protrusions" like the sai provide a bonus on YOUR disarm attempts. If anyone for whatever reason is going with a disarm focused build, I will happily go with the probable RAI on this (that it's supposed to give you the bonus, not the bad guy).Last edited by Grynning; 2010-11-17 at 02:04 PM.
My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2010-11-17, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
The one reason I don't think that "use common sense" is a useful guide here is that the base rules are already supposed to be based on common sense. Either you say that Drunken Master abilities use common sense but all other improvised weapon users don't (so the difference would be something like Drunken Masters using whiplike objects while others can't), or the normal rules are based on a commonsense idea of what you can do with an object and Drunken Masters have superhuman abilities with improvised weapons. The latter seems like the intent of the class. So I don't see the ability adding nothing to their capabilities, or adding something largely unrelated to the text like whip use.
Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
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2010-11-17, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Normal people can't use an improvised weapon to gain reach, or any sort of special weapon property other than using it do lethal damage. That's what the Drunken Master class feature does. The "weapon" still has a size and requires an appropriate number of hands.
I'm really not sure what you're arguing here. From my standpoint, if someone claimed this class feature lets you dual wield ladders or tables in their build, one in each hand, I'd say "no, that's not how it works" and dock in elegance.Last edited by Grynning; 2010-11-17 at 02:16 PM.
My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2010-11-17, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Hah! Then I shall be a mystery
gourmandjudge, even if my name is known! What shall be unknown is my criteria to judge, though I will surely deck for stuff that's on the main rules, of course. It's not like I'll allow everything.
But really, surprise me. Stuff isn't fun when you're not opening your books for everything and really using your mind. Of course, that doesn't mean all judges will like it, but hey, it's good to try something different without trying to exactly please ;)Retooler of D&D 3.5 (and 5e/Next) content. See here for more.
Now with a comprehensive guide for 3.5 Paladin players porting to Pathfinder. Also available for 5th Edition
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2010-11-17, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
The prevalent assumption that I have seen on CO boards is #1, that a drunken master can use exceptionally long items to grant exceptional reach beyond +5 ft depending on that length of the item. A 50ft ladder would grant 50 ft reach. As it really is the only useful or interesting ability they get other than drink link a demon, which takes a while to use with move actions, I would strongly argue for this ruling...otherwise the abilities are rather bland.
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2010-11-17, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Look at page 158 of Complete Warrior. Normal people can use improvised weapons to gain reach, as well as several other benefits. Since this is in the same book as the Drunken Master, I would assume that the Drunken Master is assumed to use these rules for improvised weapons. This makes sense, as most of the Drunken Master Improved Improvised Weapons abilities are upgrades from these rules: tables can be tower shields instead of just giving a +2 shield bonus, and objects with protrusions give an extra +2 to disarm. The only one that doesn't seem to be an upgrade is the use for reach, which is why I'm curious as to what the upgrade was intended to be. Dual-wielding seems silly, but unlimited reach might be closer to the intent.
Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
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2010-11-17, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
No...just no...you can't even wield a 50 ft. ladder. That'd be the equivalent of a Gargantuan weapon at least.
Originally Posted by SRDMy friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2010-11-17, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
...that is exactly why it is an improvised weapon. The ability doesn't say anything about weight, so a medium creature is still limited to 50 lbs for a 2h'd weapon by the improvised weapon rules. But if you could find a 100 ft item that weighed less than 50 lb I would think it would be wieldable as an improvised weapon.
Last edited by Rancor1; 2010-11-17 at 02:41 PM.
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2010-11-17, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Do you know what leverage is? I hate to kill catgirls here, but you can't effectively swing something that long, regardless of its weight.
If you are larger in size category yourself, you can wield bigger things, sure. But there's nothing in the rules here that indicate you can do more than double your natural reach with a reach weapon.My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2010-11-17, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
As far as I can tell, the Improvised Weapons abilities of Drunken Master are there as damage boosters, plain and simple.
Of course, that could just be the alcohol talking.
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2010-11-17, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
What does real world physics have to do with a magical world with super human heroes? No one in the real world could wield it...but a hero that can dead lift 5,000 lbs?...why not? Of course it would have to fit in the confines of the environment.
By the improvised weapon rules you could wield a 10 ft+ item as an improvised weapon it would just grant normal reach as a reach weapon. The drunken master is a special case where they (arguably) get more.
You can't flurry with them, you can't enhance them (I wouldn't think you could, they aren't weapons)...even with the extra 1d12 damage you would do better sticking with unarmed strikes.Last edited by Rancor1; 2010-11-17 at 02:51 PM.
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2010-11-17, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Well, you can't enhance unarmed strikes either. ^^
Sadly, Drunken Master is not mentioned in CW's errata.
Since the Drunken Master's improvised weapons deal more damage than his unarmed strike, the only thing you can't do with them is use flurry of blows (though, of course, there might be a way around that). The example character just mentions 'long items have reach', so I'll understand that 'according to their lenght' just means 'it needs to be this large to grant reach'.
So, no 50ft reach ladders. And yes, chairs give the +2 bonus to Drunken Masters, not their opponents.
Man, this is an editing mistake that I never expected to see. If you just use the improvised weapon rules + Drunken Master, it makes sense. But if you use CW's improvised weapon rules... then it's a mess. O.o Talk about poor editing.Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-11-17 at 03:42 PM.
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2010-11-17, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
Trophy!
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2010-11-17, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-17, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
With regards to flurry...With the editing issues with the drunken master do we really want to get into the editing mistakes on a supposedly 3.5 prestige class that references 3.0 monk base attack abilities? And if so, is the official ruling to assume that everything it says is nonsense and just that it allows flurry to work?
Also, if you use a large improvised weapon that would do 2d6 damage by the CW rules are you forced to use the 1d6 unarmed strike damage (if that is all you have) by the Drunken master rules?
...my main build is shot. 50 ft poles would have been fun...argh.Last edited by Rancor1; 2010-11-17 at 03:47 PM.
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2010-11-17, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Ok, so again just clarifying, we're saying that Drunken Masters gain no extra abilities with improvised reach weapons from their Improved Improvised Weapons class feature?
Also, does the bonus from using a pronged object to disarm as described in that class feature stack with the bonus described in the Complete Warrior rules? So in total they'd have +4 to disarm, like a Sai?Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
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2010-11-17, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
If you did enhance your unarmed strikes (Amulet of Mighty Fists/Necklace of Natural Weapons), would those bonuses extend to improvised weapons, since they deal "as much damage as your unarmed strike plus an extra 1d4 points"?
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2010-11-17, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-17, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
SpoilerWell, it would have been fairly arbitrary reach depending on the environment. Metamorphosis doesn't have a limit on the size/shape of the object....
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2010-11-17, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-17, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
I see, I had forgotten that CW expands on improvised weapons and says that basically anyone can do what the Drunken Master's "Improved Improvised Weapon" feature does. So I can see how people would think that it was supposed to add greater reach. Sadly, I don't think the wording of the ability supports that, and it certainly doesn't let you wield larger weapons than you normally could (even though there is a disconnect in D&D between size and reach). All the feature does, as far as I can tell, is let you use tables as tower shields.
My example of using an improvised whip was just as me constructing a situation where I could see a one-handed reach weapon working.
Edit: Just to clarify, I am not one of those "Everything must be realistic, melee can't have nice things" people (I love ToB, the sword and sorcery genre, and melee characters in general), I was just saying that I don't think the ability does that within the rules.Last edited by Grynning; 2010-11-17 at 04:47 PM.
My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2010-11-17, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
My interpretation of improvised weapons was completely different.
Basically I thought it simply allowed the monk to fight 'unarmed' while holding mundane objects. Flagons, cups, adventuring gear, whatever. They are an extension of their unarmed ability. Not a typical armed attack. The fact that they can adapt that ability to a variety of objects and environments dos not mean they are actually wielding the weapon as 'normal.' If that were the case, the description should have refereed to the chapter on improvised weapons in the same book.
I mean, just because Jackie Chan uses a pinball machine in a fight scene does not mean he is using less Wushu...It just means his wushu is good enough to incorperate a pinball machine in a beatdown on someone.
Of course it could just be typical WoTC editing, or a misinterpretation by me.