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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    A drunken master's improvised weapon deals as much damage as his unarmed strike plus an extra 1d4 damage.
    How does it scale up?

    Let's say the unarmed strike deals 1d10+1d4. Then you enlarge one size category. Does the damage become 2d8+1d6, or 2d8+1d4?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by gbprime View Post
    How does it scale up?

    Let's say the unarmed strike deals 1d10+1d4. Then you enlarge one size category. Does the damage become 2d8+1d6, or 2d8+1d4?
    I think the problem with this one is that the Drunken Master PrC doesn't give proviso's for larger or smaller improv. weapons.

    On one hand, I'd say that if the improvised weapon you were using was still a medium weapon, it'd still do the 1d4, but if you picked up a larger improvised weapon, like say, a large table that you couldn't normally lift, or the bar, or something, then it would start to scale up like a weapon.

    Or it could be interpreted that the improvised weapon damage bonus doesn't scale at all, since it's adding to the monk unarmed strike damage, which already scales up with size...

    I dunno. I didn't expect this class to have so much to debate...yeesh.


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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I don't think it scales. I think of improvised weapons as a group--large improvised weapons are still improvised, and as such get the listed bonus.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    I don't think it scales. I think of improvised weapons as a group--large improvised weapons are still improvised, and as such get the listed bonus.
    Exactly. I'd rule as so myself.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    That's what I'll go with then. I think the idea is that using improvised weapons replaces the standard monk damage bonuses you'd get from your levels, which it pretty much evens out with.


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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Hmm...apparently Improvised Weapons is more of a replacement to damage. You'll mostly deal more damage as a monk with your unarmed strikes than with your improvised weapons anyways, if you compare options and progression with the table and the system used to determine maneuverability (you'd need to be at the exact minimum level to enter, level 6, so that one of the options tends to be better than using an unarmed strike, but there are ways to increase your unarmed strike damage).

    I'd go with how Scorpion Kama works: you deal the amount of unarmed strike damage with the weapon, but you'd use the weapon's attributes: thus, you can't use Magic Fang or Amulet of Mighty Fists to add magic damage, plus the weapons wouldn't have the ki strike enhancements to unarmed strike damage.

    In gbprime's case, you'd deal 2d8 + 1d4 at 1st level. The 1d4 behaves more like sneak attack than weapon damage: the unarmed strike damage replaces the improvised weapon damage (thus, you'd deal more damage with lighter weapons but lower damage with bigger weapons) and add the 1d4 to the damage separately. This would also imply not multiplicating the attack on a critical (so in a crit, the weapon would deal 2d8 x 2 + 1d4). This is why the other attack scales up: you're keeping your US damage the same, and adding extra damage to what you can already do.

    Improved Improvised Weapons is an addition, so disarming with a weapon having protrusions would deal a +4 (+2 from what it had, plus an extra 2 for being a Drunken Master).

    Also, a 50 ft. ladder? Good luck trying to lift it as a Medium character. Apparently it was meant that way (granting 50 ft. reach to a character that could use a ladder of that size), counting that Medium creatures couldn't lift a ladder of less than 30 ft. (since a ladder with 10 ft. weights 20 lbs., you may figure that a weapon with 30 ft. weights 60 lbs.). Then again, unless the DM rules that, there are no ladders larger than 10 ft. I presume it's Imp. Improvised Weapons striking again: after all, since CW's improvised weapons are an extension to improvised weapons' rules in the PHB and IIW applies only to Drunken Masters, it's a "specific trumps general" situation that's easy to adjudicate.

    However, for purposes of not clashing with the judges, there are no poles or ladders longer than 10 ft., and rope can only be used as a weapon up to 15 ft. distance (applying spiked chain/whip rules to it). You can, however, use a rope as a lasso, a non-spiked non-chain that acts like a spiked chain, or as a whip.

    Hmm...I think it's better to determine improvised weapons' ranges and effects for purposes of this competition in order to have a general idea on what to work with.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I hate to bring this back up, but fighting with 30' poles is extremely common in kung fu flicks.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    30 feet is as tall as most telephone poles. Nearly 10 meters, for those on the metric system. Wielding such a thing would be quite ridiculous, not to mention the incredible inconvenience of carrying it around. Most longstaffs in kung fu movies are about 8 to maybe 10 feet long at most.

    Again, I am all for crazy awesomeness in melee characters, but there is still verisimilitude to consider. I just can't picture it working in any way that would resemble anything out of a martial arts movie or a fantasy novel.


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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    If you think the improvised weapons is complicated, consider the main feature of Drunken Master.

    What exactly is a standard drink? Wine and Ale are referenced...but what if a drunken master imbibes spirits. If a shot of whiskey is the equivelant of a tankard of ale...what if a drunken master imbibes a tankard of whiskey?

    Also, how is the duration calculated? Does the bonus have to be tracked seperately for every drink, or does the timer start counting down from the last drink consumed?

    edit: And personally I think it is a little silly that flurry is required to enter, but can't be used with a class feature like improvised weapons...Not looking for a debate. Just making a statement.
    Last edited by WinWin; 2010-11-18 at 12:33 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    If you think the improvised weapons is complicated, consider the main feature of Drunken Master.

    What exactly is a standard drink? Wine and Ale are referenced...but what if a drunken master imbibes spirits. If a shot of whiskey is the equivelant of a tankard of ale...what if a drunken master imbibes a tankard of whiskey?
    This is a tankard. It's full of ale, which can be correlated with beer. Beer is roughly 2% to 12% alcohol per volume, which means that a tankard of ale, which has about 20 ounces of ale, would have somewhere along .4 to 2.4 ounces of alcohol. You'd need to consume about 2 ounces of alcohol to get the bonus.

    Of course, that would be if you are going for reality. For fairness: 1 unit of alcohol equals 1 drink in your body, regardless of quantity or alcohol per volume. In fact, you need a bottle of wine, which has in average about three times the amount of alcohol in ale, so you can figure that all you need is actually getting drunk. If the drink is really, really strong that it has to be served in a shot vase, then that counts as 1 drink.

    So really, no need to break your head on that one. If necessary: consider that you'll have, at any moment, one drink on your waterskin, plus a few bottles of wine around, plus a big gourd which allows for 10 or so drinks.

    Also, how is the duration calculated? Does the bonus have to be tracked seperately for every drink, or does the timer start counting down from the last drink consumed?
    I consider that it's per drink, but that would be a mess. If you drink more alcohol, you get groggier, so I presume the best way to rule it would be the second one; that way, you get less book-keeping to do.
    edit: And personally I think it is a little silly that flurry is required to enter, but can't be used with a class feature like improvised weapons...Not looking for a debate. Just making a statement.
    Can't be helped. If the Drunken Master's weapons counted as monk weapons for purposes of flurry, then it could work. Maybe it's because you NEED to make the character a Monk in order to enter, or find another way to flurry (through PrCs that relate to Monk, anyways).
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    In Australia anyway, 1 standard drink equals 1 shot (30ml) of spirits, 1 glass (100 ml) of wine or 1 pot (285ml) of heavy beer.


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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I'll put myself in as a possible contestant.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Is Weapon Focus (improvised weapon) legal?

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Unfortunately, no. Unless you can get proficiency with improvised weapons as a class feature or feat from somewhere I haven't found.

    Pretty much all of the good weapon feats require you to be proficient in the weapon's use to take a feat. The improvised weapons rules explicitly state that no one is proficient with them.

    Does a way to become proficient with improvised weapons exist? You needn't tell me how, but if you say yes I'll keep looking 'til I find it.
    Last edited by kestrel404; 2010-11-18 at 06:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    Is Weapon Focus (improvised weapon) legal?
    No, it isn't.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    In Australia anyway, 1 standard drink equals 1 shot (30ml) of spirits, 1 glass (100 ml) of wine or 1 pot (285ml) of heavy beer.

    I'd use that image as my desktop wallpaper if I thought work would let me get away with it.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I'm not seeing any mention of getting rid of the -4 penalty to attack for using an improvised weapon in the Drunken master entry, which seems like an oversight...fun times.
    Last edited by Rancor1; 2010-11-18 at 06:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    Is Weapon Focus (improvised weapon) legal?
    It is if you take two levels of Brawler (Dragon #295, 3.0 PrC but still useable). Brawler is also the only way in the rules to completely eliminate the improvised weapon penalty.

    (Note: even though the Drunken Master does more damage with improvised weapons, he still has a -4 non-proficiency penalty by RAW.)

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    It is if you take two levels of Brawler (Dragon #295, 3.0 PrC but still useable). Brawler is also the only way in the rules to completely eliminate the improvised weapon penalty.

    (Note: even though the Drunken Master does more damage with improvised weapons, he still has a -4 non-proficiency penalty by RAW.)
    Only problem is that Dragon Mag material is not permissible in Iron Chef, as per the rules.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Rancor1 View Post
    I'm not seeing any mention of getting rid of the -4 penalty to attack for using an improvised weapon in the Drunken master entry, which seems like an oversight...fun times.
    Ooo... a -4 to hit for a bonus 1d4 damage? Stellar.

    IN fact, looking at it, the sample Drunken Master doesn't have the bonus damage listed in his attacks, and seemingly only gets a basic 1d6 should he choose to use an improvised weapon.

    Nor does he apparently use the improvised tower shield. Perhaps it counts as a shield, voiding many of his monk abilities?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by gbprime View Post
    Ooo... a -4 to hit for a bonus 1d4 damage? Stellar.
    Later it gets to a 1d8 (so 4.5 damage average, but a 20% chance of failing), and then much later a 1d12 (6.5 damage average). So you get a return of...around 3.6 for the first and 5.2 for the second, or in layman terms, a +4 to damage on the first and 5 on the second. And in the case of 1d4, you get a +2 to damage on average, so to speak (you'd get exactly 1.92).

    So yeah, stellar.

    IN fact, looking at it, the sample Drunken Master doesn't have the bonus damage listed in his attacks, and seemingly only gets a basic 1d6 should he choose to use an improvised weapon.
    If going by the text, should be 1d8 + 1d8 actually. Notice, though, that he deals 1d10 damage with his unarmed strike, when he should deal 1d8.

    Nor does he apparently use the improvised tower shield. Perhaps it counts as a shield, voiding many of his monk abilities?
    Well, that's because he doesn't has a table or plank on hand. If he did, he'd probably use it as a tower shield and then use it for cover; otherwise, you know how horrible would be his attack bonus? (-10, darn it!)
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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Wow, this class was poorly built wasn't it. It has all this potential to be awesome from its flavor but refuses to use it.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    So Drunken Masters are going to be ruled as non-proficient with improvised weapons? Because that seems like a huge oversight on WOTC's part, and not actually the intent of the class.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    The more I read Drunken Master's improvised weapon rules, the more it seems they are supposed to be different from the standard improvised weapon rules. As in, we should ignore how standard improvised weapons work - the way in the class description is how it works with Drunken Masters. Only then does the class feature actually make sense.
    My worry about proficiency is that it starts a trend where people would carry lots and lots of junk with their Drunken Masters to use at the right time... and that's not what was intended, obviously.
    Also, how awesome would be for a Drunken Master to grab an adamantine door and slam it on the head of an ogre, uh?

    So, we already got a ruling on that previously, so let's not make another one. We'll stick to RAW - Drunken Masters are not proficient with improvised weapons because no one is.

    Also, I should just point out yeat another mistake in the example character statblock: it says Swaying Waist does not stack with Dodge.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    So, we already got a ruling on that previously, so let's not make another one. We'll stick to RAW - Drunken Masters are not proficient with improvised weapons because no one is.
    Why not? If MacGyver can make bombs with chiclets...

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Drunken Master? In. I already came up with a fun skeleton build involving it some time ago, I'll flesh it out and come up with some fluff.
    I hope I won't lose too many points for working off an existing build - I did come up with the original myself, and I don't think it's too widely known.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Hmm, Heliomance, you've got me scouring the corners of my memory now trying to recall your builds.
    Busy weekend; hope to update all threads by Monday AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I have a lot of spare time on my hands, so I'll throw my hat in as a competitor for this one.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I'd also enjoy competing.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Show me the way to go home
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