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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Huh. Only 1 shou disciple - I thought that half the entries would use that.
    It's 3.0, and from a source some judges have previously indicated was 'obscure'; that's probably why some folks gave it a pass.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I added a few words to the Uthunan entry, by the creator.

    Also, kestrel mentioned only one Shou Disciple. We also got only one Disciple of the Eye - all other contestants used Monk!
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-11-24 at 07:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    The tally after one judge:

    {table=head]Name|Place|Total|Average
    Bu the Hobo Fist|GOLD|15.5|3.875
    Laph Roaig|SILVER|14|3.5
    Gazebo Jones|SILVER|14|3.5
    Eric Redscale|Fourth|13.5|3.375
    Simon the Incompetent Archer|Fifth|13|3.25
    Vermillion|Fifth|13|3.25
    Chieftain Nini|Fifth|13|3.25
    Uthunan Kavuilika|Eighth|11|2.75[/table]
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2010-11-25 at 08:43 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    It's 3.0, and from a source some judges have previously indicated was 'obscure'; that's probably why some folks gave it a pass.
    Unapproachable East was updated for 3.5. However, the update didn't actually change anything significant in the Shou Disciple entry, which still refers to the monk's unarmed attack bonus from 3.0. Also, it's not clear if Martial Flurry (Ex) grants Flurry of Blows if the PC didn't already have it to begin with.

    I was surprised that no one used Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest to counter the Int/Wis damage.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    It's not damage. Otherwise there would have been a lot of binder dips.

    Stat penalties are a lot harder to negate.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Yeah, I was hoping that it was damage. If so, you definitely would have seen a binder build out of me. Binding Naberius to help with the ability damage, plus the fact that Drink Like a Demon doesn't lower CHA? It would have been tasty. I almost submitted a Hellfire Warlock, using Drink Like a Demon to ease the CON pain, but it didn't really use the Secret Ingredient for anything else.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    In response to Uthunan's comments that have been added to his entry:

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    IC is a practical optimization contest, and has an elegance category specifically because rules abuse is frowned upon. The rules do state that you can make a cheesy dish, sure, but in my mind that means something that would actually work. I really don't think any reasonable DM would ever look at that rule and go "If you are wielding someone as a weapon and roll a natural 1, the weapon breakage clause of improvised weapons clearly means that they DIE INSTANTLY, no save." Read it out loud and tell me it doesn't sound ridiculous.

    Death in D&D is very specific; you become dead when something makes you "die" or go to -11 hp. That's it. If the ability caused an amount of damage to the improvised weapon, you'd have a case. If you'd argued that the person being wielded should take some damage, I would have said, "It's not RAW, but that makes sense and it's funny." But purposely fishing for natural 1's/20's to try an exploit a loophole that isn't even there is why I scored it so low.
    Last edited by Grynning; 2010-11-24 at 12:55 PM.


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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Since Monk is an obvious entry, I didn't take off for builds that use Monk. Rather, I added points for builds that did not.


    Bu the Hobo Fist
    Originality: 3.5. Urban Ranger was a nice touch. (+.5)
    Power: 3.5. Judging this as a melee combatant and not a DM, you have a lot of nice tricks, plus the ability to use a diverse spell list. (+.5)
    Elegance: 2. Monk Dip (-.5). The classes just do not seem to flow together, esp Chameleon. I did read the backstory, but still got the feeling you came up with the build and then dreamed up a reason for it. (-.5)
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 1.5. Only took 7 levels of the SI (-.5). I just don't see this as a Drunken Master. To be honest, the more of your explanation I read, the more I thought of Vigilante. Yes, you have DM levels and they make you fight better, but WHY are you a DM, as opposed to any other melee class? (-1)
    Total: 10.5 / 2.625

    Eric Redscale
    Originality: 4. DFA was not expected. (+.5). No use of Monk. (+.5)
    Power: 3. Very low BAB (-.5). Breath weapon stacking (+.5)
    Elegance: 4.5. That isn't a combo I would expect to work well, but it does. (+1.5)
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 4. I really like the way DM builds on DFA. (+1)
    Total: 15.5 / 3.875

    Simon
    Originality: 3.5 Soulknife and Soulbow were unexpected. (+.5)
    Power: 2. So you throw arrows, and that's it? (-1)
    Elegance: 2. Monk Dip (-.5). Honestly, I think you could have done without Soulknife and Soulbow. A raging drunk that throws things in barfights is pretty cool without the need to add more too it. (-.5)
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 2. Only used 9 levels, but that's close enough that I don't take off points. Much more focused on Master Thrower
    than DM. (-1)
    Total: 9.5 / 2.375

    Laph
    Originality: 4. The stacking psionics are a nice touch. (+1)
    Power: 3. Several ways to add to attacks. (+.5). Low BAB for a combat-type. (-.5)
    Elegance: 2. Ardent and Swordsage dips (-1).
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 2. I'm just not seeing where DM comes into this. This build says "Fist of Zukeon" (sp?) more than DM. (-1)
    Total: 11 / 2.75

    Vermillion
    Originality: 4. Yeah, I didn't expect this at all. (+1)
    Power: 2.5. You hit things. A lot. (-.5)
    Elegance: 3.5. Monk dip. (-.5). Nice and simple (+1)
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 5. This is what the DM is about - being drunk and hitting things. :)
    Total: 15 / 3.75

    Uthunan Kavuilika
    Originality: 5. While I doubt any DM would let you get away with this, it is unique. (+2)
    Power: 3.5. Grappling is good, and even without the cheese, he can grapple. (+.5)
    Elegance: 2.5 Cleric dip (-.5). I am judging this on the basis of NOT using living creatures as improvised weapons, as that is the way I think this build would be played in a real game. He is a solid grappler, and everything feeds into grappling. Even excluding his desire to literally break enemies in two, luck feats are useful, so there is no loss there.
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 5. Another pure representation of "get drunk and fight."
    Total: 16 / 4

    Chieftan Nini
    Originality: 3.5. Did not use Monk (+.5).
    Power: 3. You hit things. A lot. (-.5). But you hit hard and make sure you hit. (+.5)
    Elegance: 2.5. Barbarian dip. (-.5)
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 5. Yet another pure representation of "get drunk and fight."
    Total: 14 / 3.5

    Gazebo Jones
    Originality: 5. Now if you will excuse me, I am going to go cry... :)
    Power: 4. Extremely flexible melee combatant.
    Elegance: 3.5. Monk dip (-.5). But it just works. (+1)
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 2. More focused on the Alter Form abilities than DM. (-1).
    Total: 14.5 / 3.625

    Note: As I read this, all I could think was "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
    Last edited by Kesnit; 2010-11-24 at 05:45 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Given any thought to IC XVI yet, TS?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Rankings after two judges:

    {table=head]Name|Place|Total|Average
    Eric Redscale|GOLD|29|3.625
    Gazebo Jones|SILVER|28.5|3.5625
    Vermillion|BRONZE|28|3.5
    Uthunan Kavuilika|Fourth|27|3.375
    Chieftain Nini, the Whiskey King|Fourth|27|3.375
    Bu the Hobo Fist|Sixth|26|3.25
    Laph Roaig|Seventh|25|3.125
    Simon the Incompetent Archer|Eighth|22.5|2.8125[/table]
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2010-11-25 at 08:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Wow, Kesnit's scores blew the tally upside down. This is shaping up to be a great contest! I'm sure it will be a close win.
    Also, nitpick, Kesnit: Laph is not a Fist of Zuoken, he is a Zerth Cenobite (the other 'psionic monk' prc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Unapproachable East was updated for 3.5. However, the update didn't actually change anything significant in the Shou Disciple entry, which still refers to the monk's unarmed attack bonus from 3.0. Also, it's not clear if Martial Flurry (Ex) grants Flurry of Blows if the PC didn't already have it to begin with.
    While this does not matter for the purposes of this contest, Dragon Magazine 318 clarified that any class that progresses a monk's unarmed attack bonus progresses flurry of blows as well.
    Now that I think about, this might mean Shintao Monk gives flurry as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Given any thought to IC XVI yet, TS?
    I actually have my eyes on Hellreaver, since we've done a lot of Completes recently. There's also another class that's always in my mind that I believe some of you might know, but it's from a somewhat obscure book.
    Something from ToB could work. I'm always open to suggestions. ^^


    Oooooh, I almost forgot!
    I'm taking votes for honorable mention, you can PM me about it.

    EDIT: OK, I got a few PMs that I'd like to share.
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    Laph's creator wants to know if you read the character's background. I missed it myself when I first received the entry, so I think it was worth pointing out.


    To Grynning from Vermillion's creator:
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    Why use the Savage Progression if you're not going to use it to try and get into the SI earlier? You could have started taking monk and drunken master levels before finishing the racial levels.
    Because you can't. Savage species states that you cannot multiclass until you complete the full progression of the monster class, specifically to prevent 1 level dips in monster. In this case, it's minotaur only until level 8.

    Otherwise I would have.


    On the subject of Uthunan, by one of the contestants:
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    Not a dispute...I'm trying to stay away from them this round. However, the following make it seem pretty conclusive that people cannot be wielded as improvised weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB, page 113
    Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB, page 306
    creature: a living or otherwise active being, not an object.
    Am I missing something?
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-11-25 at 10:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Something from ToB could work. I'm always open to suggestions. ^^
    Most of the ToB PrCs have already been explored pretty thoroughly... except for Deepstone Sentinel. That'd be my vote, mostly so we can point to it and show people, "Yes, it really is 100 times better than Dwarven Defender!"

    (Actually, Shadow Sun Ninja is the PrC aggravates me more than the others... sounds amazingly cool, until you get into the mechanics of it, and it just stinks. Although Person_Man did come up with a neat build that creatively exploits the positive/negative energy thing.)

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Also, nitpick, Kesnit: Laph is not a Fist of Zuoken, he is a Zerth Cenobite (the other 'psionic monk' prc).
    I don't have all the psionic books, so was only going off memory. For some reason, I though Zerth Cenobite was something else. But my point still stands.

    To Kesnit:
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    Laph's creator wants to know if you read the character's background. I missed it myself when I first received the entry, so I think it was worth pointing out.
    I did see it.

    On the subject of Uthunan, by one of the contestants:
    [spoiler]Not a dispute...I'm trying to stay away from them this round. However, the following make it seem pretty conclusive that people cannot be wielded as improvised weapons.
    I can't speak for the other judges, but I judges Uthunan as a grappler, not as a grappler who uses other creatures as improvised weapons. I did give high points for Originality based on the idea of using other creatures, but the rest of the judging did not take that into account.
    Last edited by Kesnit; 2010-11-25 at 11:12 AM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Most of the ToB PrCs have already been explored pretty thoroughly... except for Deepstone Sentinel. That'd be my vote, mostly so we can point to it and show people, "Yes, it really is 100 times better than Dwarven Defender!"
    That's sadly true. (ToB needs more PrCs!) And there have already been a couple Dwarf-focused Iron Chefs. So maybe ToB isn't the best source to look into.

    I think a lot of crazy/creative new things could be done with Master of Nine, but it's only 5 levels.

    Although Person_Man did come up with a neat build that creatively exploits the positive/negative energy thing.)
    And the darkness ability, combining it with that one crazy Drow of the Underdark feat ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    I don't have all the psionic books, so was only going off memory.
    Hmmm, that explains why you were so dismissive of Soulbow in the Power category ...
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Hmmm, that explains why you were so dismissive of Soulbow in the Power category ...
    No, the reason I was dismissive is because I was judging the build as a DM build, not a psionic build. Had the SI been Master Thrower, it would have gotten a better score. I know Soulbow is powerful, but it did not really fit the theme of this particular competition.
    Last edited by Kesnit; 2010-11-25 at 01:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I know it's moot because it's been updated, but the 3.0 Player's Handbook (which was much funnier than 3.5's) included "small animals" in their sample list of feasible improvised weapons.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    I know it's moot because it's been updated, but the 3.0 Player's Handbook (which was much funnier than 3.5's) included "small animals" in their sample list of feasible improvised weapons.
    That's so awesome I can't even find words to describe it.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    No, the reason I was dismissive is because I was judging the build as a DM build, not a psionic build. Had the SI been Master Thrower, it would have gotten a better score. I know Soulbow is powerful, but it did not really fit the theme of this particular competition.
    well, as a counterpoint, the top-scoring entry right now is a Dragonfire adept, which only synergizes a couple of class features with DM as well.

    Not trying to change your judging, just saying I don't see how the throwing improvised arrows ranged build is so much different than the fire-breathing ranged build.

    Edit: Ok, here I am trying to change Kesnit's judging - I noticed you counted off a lot for "monk dips" in your elegance scores - this is something that's pretty much mandatory to enter Drunken Master, because of the Flurry of Blows requirement. Unless we wanted to see all of the builds be half monk levels, I really don't think that should be counted off for. I mean, there are basically only 2 other classes that can give the class feature, both of them specific PrC's, both of which got used.
    Last edited by Grynning; 2010-11-25 at 07:17 PM.


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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Grynning View Post
    Edit: Ok, here I am trying to change Kesnit's judging - I noticed you counted off a lot for "monk dips" in your elegance scores - this is something that's pretty much mandatory to enter Drunken Master, because of the Flurry of Blows requirement. Unless we wanted to see all of the builds be half monk levels, I really don't think that should be counted off for.
    If all builds are getting counted off for it, then it equalizes. The 1-2 exceptions get a small point bump. Good for them.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    I know it's moot because it's been updated, but the 3.0 Player's Handbook (which was much funnier than 3.5's) included "small animals" in their sample list of feasible improvised weapons.
    Someone was watching "Kung Pow: Enter the Fist" one too many times. Like, you know... once.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    If all builds are getting counted off for it, then it equalizes. The 1-2 exceptions get a small point bump. Good for them.
    Those builds both had to "dip" something else and didn't get counted off for it, is what I'm saying. Also he already gave them points in originality for it. It does seem a little unfair.


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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Grynning View Post
    well, as a counterpoint, the top-scoring entry right now is a Dragonfire adept, which only synergizes a couple of class features with DM as well.
    True, but the places where it overlaps are what it is built around. As I read the Soulbow build, it's a ranged combatant. There's nothing wrong with ranged combatants, but the SI is a melee PrC.

    Not trying to change your judging, just saying I don't see how the throwing improvised arrows ranged build is so much different than the fire-breathing ranged build.
    As I read the DFA, there was some melee in the build, which was missing in the Soulbow.

    Edit: Ok, here I am trying to change Kesnit's judging - I noticed you counted off a lot for "monk dips" in your elegance scores - this is something that's pretty much mandatory to enter Drunken Master, because of the Flurry of Blows requirement. Unless we wanted to see all of the builds be half monk levels, I really don't think that should be counted off for.
    That is EXACTLY why I marked off for Monk dips. I hate dips, and have put that in my judging criteria. That is just my personal preference. It is up to the builder whether to take the dip hit, or add an extra class level and not take the dip hit. (3 levels is not a dip in my mind.)

    Please note I only take .5 per base class dip. Based on the scoring in past competitions, there is a bigger gap in the top scorers than .5, so losing (or not losing) .5 is not likely to change the final outcome. (I think only 1 class lost a full 1 point for 2 dips.) I debated taking off additional points for dipping PrCs, but decided against it.

    Also note that I have said specifically that if the SI is a PrC that advances 2 class's features (such as Daggerspell Mage or Shifter), the 1 level dip required would not be marked down because it is, well, required.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    Also note that I have said specifically that if the SI is a PrC that advances 2 class's features (such as Daggerspell Mage or Shifter), the 1 level dip required would not be marked down because it is, well, required.
    You don't think that monk abilities and competence in melee are two different class's features?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    You don't think that monk abilities and competence in melee are two different class's features?
    LOL!
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I never really had an issue with dips aside from multiclassing penalties, in fact due to those multiclassing penalties, dipping is required for certain types of builds.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion though. At the very least, it makes watching the progress of the competition more exiting. More varied opinions provide a comprehensive feedback for competitors as well.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    I never really had an issue with dips aside from multiclassing penalties, in fact due to those multiclassing penalties, dipping is required for certain types of builds.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion though. At the very least, it makes watching the progress of the competition more exiting. More varied opinions provide a comprehensive feedback for competitors as well.
    I couldn't have put it better, WinWin.
    Also, I'm thinking on using a class from the DMG for out next secret ingredient. I mean, we're supposed to be a mainly Core + Completes contest, bue we never used a prc from Core!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    I couldn't have put it better, WinWin.
    Also, I'm thinking on using a class from the DMG for out next secret ingredient. I mean, we're supposed to be a mainly Core + Completes contest, bue we never used a prc from Core!
    Shadowdancer? more than 1 level dip?


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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Nah, people USE shadowdancer. More like Arcane Archer or Horizon Walker.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by gbprime View Post
    Nah, people USE shadowdancer. More like Arcane Archer or Horizon Walker.
    Horizon Walker got quite the spotlight after Saph's Horizon Tripper, actually. I think we even had an IC winner with levels in Horizon Walker.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    I couldn't have put it better, WinWin.
    Also, I'm thinking on using a class from the DMG for out next secret ingredient. I mean, we're supposed to be a mainly Core + Completes contest, bue we never used a prc from Core!
    I'm looking forward to it. The DMG PrC's don't get much love, and I'd love to see something really cool with any of the 10 level PrC's from there.

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