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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I'll second Arcane Archer. Terrible PrC, I'd love to see what people do with it.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Also, I'm thinking on using a class from the DMG for out next secret ingredient. I mean, we're supposed to be a mainly Core + Completes contest, but we never used a prc from Core!
    My thoughts on the Core PrCs:

    Arcane Archer: This would actually be fun, since they have stuff, but it's just not that great.
    Arcane Trickster: Possibly. Ranged Legerdemain has potential, and Impromptu Sneak Attack could be worked as well, but it may be overshadowed by sheer casting power.
    Assassin: I would lean no. It actually does see a fair amount of use, and while it does have some untouched abilities, the flavor would be completely one-note.
    Blackguard: I don't know enough about this one to make a clear decision, but it may just have something worthwhile laying around.
    Dragon Disciple: The breath weapon is a bit of a shame, but the class itself may just be salvageable.
    Duelist: Ew. Skip this.
    Dwarven Defender: Without a way to draw aggro, this class is practically NPC-only. With it, all of the builds are identical. Plus, we've already had a Dwarf-themed contest.
    Eldritch Knight: No class features. Pass.
    Horizon Walker: Saph made what is pretty much the be-all end-all of HW's, so I don't know how much variety we'd get.
    Loremaster: Everyone is now a Wizard/Archivist. 9th level spells>LM class features.
    Mystic Theurge:
    Red Wizard: Over. Powered.
    Shadowdancer: You could be a stealthy spy, or... no, wait, that's it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


  3. - Top - End - #183
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Arcane Trickster would also be a good one.. and maybe blackguard. The first has some class features that might have some interesting potential, the second has an interesting mix of abilities that might be able to be taken in different directions. Dragon Disciple's a bit rough, and HW, while interesting, has the much-stated issue of "Saph already did that".

    Also, Prinny, you missed Archmage and Heirophant. Those, however, come in too late in my opinion to be worthwhile SI's.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    Also, Prinny, you missed Archmage and Heirophant. Those, however, come in too late in my opinion to be worthwhile SI's.
    I didn't miss them. I left them out because they're only 5 levels long. I also omitted the Thaumaturgist. 2/3 are interesting and reasonably powerful *glares at Hierophant*, but they're ineligible on account of being too short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Just to clarify for the next comp, the following are all legal sources, right:
    • Dragon Magazine Compendium (published by WotC)
    • Dragonlance Campaign Setting (published by WotC)
    • Wizards website only content

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    If Dragon Disciple is in the offing, can we agree to ignore the silly qualify/disqualify/qualify/disqualify infinite loop that theoretically happens at 10th level?
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I should have my judging done by Monday night. Sorry for the delays, but I have my weekly session and work over the next couple of days.
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    If Dragon Disciple is in the offing, can we agree to ignore the silly qualify/disqualify/qualify/disqualify infinite loop that theoretically happens at 10th level?
    Of course we can.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    I didn't miss them. I left them out because they're only 5 levels long. I also omitted the Thaumaturgist. 2/3 are interesting and reasonably powerful *glares at Hierophant*, but they're ineligible on account of being too short.
    Ah, I see - my mistake, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Of course we can.
    What if you WANT that infinite loop? I call him.. Schroedinger's Apotheosis...
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    It's more of a Catch-22, since it is the very act of being a dragon that makes the disciple not a dragon, and if the disciple wasn't a dragon then he could be a dragon.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    It's more of a Catch-22, since it is the very act of being a dragon that makes the disciple not a dragon, and if the disciple wasn't a dragon then he could be a dragon.
    That's the sort of flip-flop motion that gnomish artificers bottle up and use to power clockworks.
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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    I'll second Arcane Archer. Terrible PrC, I'd love to see what people do with it.
    Third'd, if only because I know a cost-effective trick that I've dubbed "Regicide".
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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    IC hasn't had any elfy classes, I don't think. To Races of the Wild!

    And I don't even like elves.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Just to clarify for the next comp, the following are all legal sources, right:
    • Dragon Magazine Compendium (published by WotC)
    • Dragonlance Campaign Setting (published by WotC)
    • Wizards website only content
    Bump?.....

  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Just to clarify for the next comp, the following are all legal sources, right:
    • Dragon Magazine Compendium (published by WotC)
    • Dragonlance Campaign Setting (published by WotC)
    • Wizards website only content
    Dragon Magazine Compendium, and only the Compendium, is allowed. I don't think anyone but shinken will be able to answer for the other two, though, since it goes into a gray area, and we have no precedent for that sort of thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I know people have used alternate class features from the Wizards Web site before. (One did in the competition. I almost deducted before I double-checked the rules and realized there is no rule against it.)
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  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    Dragon Magazine Compendium, and only the Compendium, is allowed. I don't think anyone but shinken will be able to answer for the other two, though, since it goes into a gray area, and we have no precedent for that sort of thing.
    Web enhancement stuff is legit, and frequently used. Dragonlance is at the very least frowned upon, but I don't remember if there is a rule about it.
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  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Web enhancement stuff is legit, and frequently used. Dragonlance is at the very least frowned upon, but I don't remember if there is a rule about it.
    The base campaign setting book (the first one), is WotC published and thus fair game. All the subsequent material is 3rd party.

  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    The base campaign setting book (the first one), is WotC published and thus fair game. All the subsequent material is 3rd party.
    Not to mention, mixing campaign settings (Dragonlance, Eberron, Forgotten Realms) inside one build would (IMO anyway) be a hit to Elegance.
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  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    The base campaign setting book (the first one), is WotC published and thus fair game. All the subsequent material is 3rd party.
    You are correct. Dragonlance CS is legal for this contest, but I bet most judges would find it a tad obscure.

  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Web enhancement stuff is legit, and frequently used. Dragonlance is at the very least frowned upon, but I don't remember if there is a rule about it.
    How about web only things like Wild Cohort, or Font of Inspiration?

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    How about web only things like Wild Cohort, or Font of Inspiration?
    "Use it. Link it." is the advice I was given about web-only material from WotC in past competitions. After all, all of us here have internet access.
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  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    How about web only things like Wild Cohort, or Font of Inspiration?
    Web-only things from WotC have been used without issue many times in the contest. I'm almost completely sure they're allowed.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    They always were when I was chairman, anyway. Use it, link it indeed.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Web-only things from WotC have been used without issue many times in the contest. I'm almost completely sure they're allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    They always were when I was chairman, anyway. Use it, link it indeed.
    OK, that's pretty much what I thought. Thankies.

  26. - Top - End - #206
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I vote either MT or Arcane Archer. AA could have some shenanigans involved!

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    3.5 Arcane Archer could be interesting, it is pretty hard to optimize, though. It's just so bad, and it hurts me because I know there are better versions out there.
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  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Dwarven Defender is not bad as a thrower or seige engineer. Otherwise it's main feature is trumped by reach and 5 foot steps in melee. Kind of funny as traditional Dwarven enemies like Giants have reach.

    Dragon Disciple is wierd. May be interesting to see how it meshes with sourcebooks like Draconomicon, RotD and DM.

    Duelist gets very little return on it's investment. Defelect Arrows is not a capstone...The other features are ok, but a little underwhelming. IMHO the Swahbuckler class is better.

    Blackguard has some potential. Not that great, but not bad either.

    Arcane archer is bound to cause heartache.

    The casters are pretty good.

  29. - Top - End - #209
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    ElfRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Hello, guys
    Oh, the builds are awesome! Of course the best one is Chieftain Nini, because I'm on the background! I think the judges should give additional points because of this cameo!

    I edited the size of last challenge's trophies so as not to break forum rules on signatures (see, I'm learning lots of stuff!). Just squash the cockroach: .

    From now on, I'll post the trophies on two sizes: big (to see all details) and small (to fit in your signatures' spoilers). I have already finished this round's trophies and I'm now working on the badges.

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  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Four out of seven builds, gentlemen! Hopefully I'll deal with a 5th, but at most I'll have them at Tuesday. I'm eager to post them all, since I saw a few builds that could have some polishing and a few builds I like, but I seem to be quite strict on the points. Hopefully that will mean I'm also fair on that.

    So far, to give you an idea: the current document where I'm writing this has around 11 pages and 7,569 words. It has around 35,000 characters without spaces, and around 42,500 characters with spaces. So expect my judging (knock on wood so I can finish it) to be on two separate posts.

    Just to ask; which has been the highest score delivered on the competition history (meaning all other 14 entries)?

    As for the next setup...I dunno. None of the DMG PrCs I find interesting, but definitely I would like to see Blackguard. Though, Blackguard has its share of problems (it calls for several "fallen paladins", and it has a lot of support on other places), but it's not as mind-boggling as Drunken Master, so variation on the theme is expected. Loremaster could be fun, Red Wizard is so horribly specific it hurts, and the rest I have no real reason why to support or not. Well, except Arcane Trickster, but that's mostly like Mystic Theurge or Eldritch Knight which essentially blends two classes (Rogue and arcane spellcaster)
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