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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I don't see a judgement for Gazebo Jones from WinWin.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    All done. I did not require two posts, but for some reason the server did not appreciate my writing style. I can't say I blame it, really.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    We already have disputes for WinWin's judgings!

    Vermillion
    WinWin refers to LA buy-off. As far as I can tell, Vermillion doesn't buy off LA. If WinWin used buy off as part of his judging, another look might adjust the scoring (and break the tie).
    Gazebo Jones
    Warforged are able to use potions, so they indeed can drink.
    Laph
    I'm curious about which features he feels I didn't mention? Corkscrew Rush, improvised weapons and specifically improvised tower shield, Drink Like a Demon, Stagger, Swaying Waist, Improved Grapple and Breath of Flame were all explicitly highlighted...
    Also, since score are so close, I'd really like it if we could get another judge.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-11-30 at 11:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    This is definitely one of the most back-and-forth rounds of Iron Chef in terms of scores.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    This is definitely one of the most back-and-forth rounds of Iron Chef in terms of scores.
    No doubt about it. Lots of excellent submissions here; even the current last place was leading a few days ago!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    This is definitely one of the most back-and-forth rounds of Iron Chef in terms of scores.
    The judges' waists are swaying...
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    The judges' waists are swaying...
    I actually grounded aloud... congratulations Amphetryon you made me come out of lurking.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Shinken, Bu's score should be 53, making him in 4th place, not 8th. I'll re-do the table in a bit.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    {table=head]Name|Place|Total|Average
    Chieftain Nini, the Whiskey King|GOLD|59|3.69
    Vermillion|SILVER|56|3.5
    Laph Roaig|SILVER|56|3.5
    Bu the Hobo Fist|BRONZE|53|3.31
    Gazebo Jones|Fifth|52.5|3.28
    Eric Redscale|Sixth|50|3.13
    Simon the Incompetent Archer|Seventh|43.5|2.72
    Uthunan Kavuilika|Eighth|42.5|2.66[/table]

    Only went to two decimal places all around this time. I'm leaving a bronze in on the second place tie to make it easier to read, I dunno how the trophies would go out in that case.
    Last edited by Grynning; 2010-11-30 at 01:31 PM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Vermillion

    WinWin refers to LA buy-off. As far as I can tell, Vermillion doesn't buy off LA. If WinWin used buy off as part of his judging, another look might adjust the scoring (and break the tie).
    My reference was that even if the character had used LA, they would still be struggling to keep up with a party. By that I mean high level play and the challenges it poses. Bonus attributes and natural attacks are a small return to the character for 8 levels of investment.

    Gazebo

    Warforged are able to use potions, so they indeed can drink.
    Silly me. I read the Construct type description instead of the Living Construct subtype. Thanks to Alter Self, the character would retain constitution. However, the description of Living Constructs says that they do not need to eat, sleep or breathe. Unlike Outsiders, there is no caveat that says they can if they choose to. There is only a stipulation that they can benefit from spells and consumable magical items. I suppose the character could get drunk...It would just be a lot more expensive due to the restictions of their physiology and the requirement that their libation be a consumable magical item. Also, while in an altered form, they may no longer benefit from the Living Construct subtype. I'll alter elegance by half a point.

    Laph
    I'm curious about which features he feels I didn't mention? Corkscrew Rush, improvised weapons and specifically improvised tower shield, Drink Like a Demon, Stagger, Swaying Waist, Improved Grapple and Breath of Flame were all explicitly highlighted...
    Explicitly Highlighted? Those features were mentioned, but somewhat overshadowed by everthing else going on in the build.
    Last edited by WinWin; 2010-11-30 at 01:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    I'll alter elegance by half a point.
    Sorry to be dense, but is that half a point up or down? When I checked, your post still had elegance at a 1, as before.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    I adjusted Gazebo's score up by .5 in the table, since I assume that's what WinWin meant.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    That's what I've done on my spreadsheet as well, though I wanted to be sure. Also, T.G., should your total score for Simon the Incompetent Archer be a 9.5 (as written), or an 8.5 (the sum of the individual categories)?
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  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    That's what I've done on my spreadsheet as well, though I wanted to be sure. Also, T.G., should your total score for Simon the Incompetent Archer be a 9.5 (as written), or an 8.5 (the sum of the individual categories)?
    Should be 8.5. I believed the sum actually was 9.5; for some reason, instead of going in order I did a mental skipping that added a 1 (I think it was mistreating a 5 for a 6). I'll change that shortly.

    Still...that was pretty fast, WinWin. I spent...the better of three/four days making the judgings and you do it in half a day. But I gets there's no disputes over; maybe you guys are scared about how extense was the description?

    And here I was thinking my judging as something from Simon Cowell; controversial and harsh...
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    T.G., I think your critiques for my build were well-justified, so I wasn't planning on raising any issues.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Your commentary on my build was fair and complete, as I see it, so I've no dispute, TG Oskar. There was an amusing bit of irony that I'll mention after the reveal, too.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Post edited and Gazebo's score modified upwards.

    If there are any concerns about the apprent haste in which I scored, I can only say that I read all the entries a few days ago. I gave them a cursory evaluation at that time. I followed up by checking sources before making my judgements. My opinion is my own, I do not expect it to be shared by everyone.

    If my tone was acerbic, it was in part due to having to retype everything. I am happy to address any legitimate concerns.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Did you guys get enough judging? I just skimmed the last page, and it sounded like y'all needed another butcher?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Daragos Kitsune was planning on judging, though we haven't heard from him yet. The other judge on the list I believe is an error (yes, even the illustrious True_Shinken can make mistakes) since there is no user on GitP named "Sonugal" and the user named "Zonugal" was stating their intent to compete, not judge.
    Last edited by Grynning; 2010-12-01 at 03:06 AM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Well, I have a lot of disputes for you guys. ^^
    Keld, if you want to judge, you are always welcome.
    Rules Disputes regarding Simon:
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    The Soulbow creates mind arrows as a free action. This action does not fire the arrow as that would allow a Soulbow to get infinite free action attacks. An attack is needed to fire the arrow. The second paragraph in the mind arrow description is only talking about the attack action and describing the damage down when shot. There must be a time between the free action to create the arrow and the attack action to fire it when the Soulbow has created the arrow and has not fired it. Nothing says it "must" be fired. There are two actions, not one.
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    Judging Disputes regarding Simon and Drunken Master

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    The build only works with Drunken Master. No other class could throw objects while using unarmed strike damage. The 2-8 levels of Drunken Master gives 13 damage very attack and is worth taking. Very few prestige classes could match that.


    Chieftain Nini the Whiskey King Disputes

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    Nini (Originality): As pointed out earlier in the thread, Unapproachable East has a 3.5 update, which changed nothing about Shou Disciple. Therefore, it's fair game for 3.5. Also, you mention a table I can't use. Are you referring to the sidebar on Shou Disciples and unarmed strikes? This is irrelevant, because Nini strikes entirely with improvised weapons.
    Nini (Elegance): Shou Disciple 5 allows Nini to flurry with all weapons, not just light weapons. This allows Nini to pounce with two-handed improvised weapons, improving his base damage from a high STR as well as his Power Attack/Leap Attack damage.


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    Nini (Power/Elegance): Nini does not suffer from the multiclass penalties you mentioned. As a dragonborn jungle halfling, his favored classes are barbarian and fighter.


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    T.G. Oskar
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    Nini (Originality): Who else submitted a dragonborn? There was a Dragonfire Adept, and an unfinished submission that would have used dragonborn, but Nini stands as the only official dragonborn entry. Also, he gains the Heart aspect (as a dragonborn only gains one aspect, he cannot also take Mind or Wings). Not mentioning the selected aspect was my fault, as I thought mentioning the breath weapon would be clearer than it was.
    Nini (Elegance): [in regards to Nini's background] The two ranks of Knowledge:local represent passed-down history, recollections, and legends about the Blackfoot's native land of Shou (mentioned in the beginning of Nini's backstory). The way I envisioned it, Shou is analagous to China/Russia, and the first Blackfoots migrated from there to "America" much like some Native American tribes. The jungle variant halfling was done on a mechanical level to avoid the barbarian multiclass penalty, I admit, but on a flavor level it was done because I see the Blackfoots living in a jungle/forest environment post-migration (like some parts of pre-explored America). There was a flavor-based reason for Dragonborn involving worship of The Shining Serpent (echoing asian dragons and some naturalist Native American traditions), but I accidentally left it out in my final edit, so no dispute there. Finally, though, why do you question if the race choice is legal?
    Nini (Power): Nini's items were listed simply as "gear to consider." None of it is required or considered in Nini's posted damage total, nor are bonuses from high ability scores. Admittedly, Nini requires some stat-boosting items to hold the full number of drinks, but he would still function as written in a no-magic campaign, complete with his solid defenses and damage output.


    Bu the Hobo Fist's disputes
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    Two judging disputes/comments:

    For Oskar:

    There is no such weapon as an improvised quarterstaff. There are quarterstaffs, which one can flurry with, and improvised weapons, which one cannot. So your proposed tactic for Bu wouldn't work.

    The Charisma thing was indeed a major build mistake...I thought that Drink Like a Demon decreased Cha, because who ever heard of a Monk class that penalized Wis?

    For WinWin:

    Mongrelfolk have the human subtype, and as such are human to the same extent that drow are elves.


    Eric's Disputes
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    • Eric (Elegance): Level increases to attributes were listed under the "Attributes" heading, directly below the level progression. I apologize that it wasn't included in the level-by-level table, but let's not confuse your lazy reading for my lazy presentation.
    • Eric (Power): Eric has two different "Frightful" abilities. "Frightful Attack," gained at 9th level, affects only the creature [with fewer levels/HD] being attacked. "Frightful Presence," gained at 18th level, affects all enemies [with fewer levels/HD] within 30 feet. They are not two redundant abilities.
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    Wow, that's a lot of disputes.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-12-01 at 08:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Nini.

    I learned something new today. elegance adjusted.

    Bu

    I was going off the Fiend Folio description of Mongrelfolk. 2 things I have learned today. score adjusted.

    edit: 0.5 to elegance was a little stingy. A made it a whole point.

    I have no comment on other complaints at his time.
    Last edited by WinWin; 2010-12-01 at 10:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    Nini.

    I learned something new today. elegance adjusted.

    Bu

    I was going off the Fiend Folio description of Mongrelfolk. 2 things I have learned today. score adjusted.
    Spreadsheet monkey here. I saw Bu's increased elegance, but saw no change to your score for Nini. What should the change be?

    EDIT: Scratch that, I see that I was jumping the gun. Spreadsheet has been updated. Will hold off on another table until the remaining disputes have been addressed.
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2010-12-01 at 10:23 AM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Simon:
    First dispute:
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    The Soulbow creates mind arrows as a free action. This action does not fire the arrow as that would allow a Soulbow to get infinite free action attacks. An attack is needed to fire the arrow. The second paragraph in the mind arrow description is only talking about the attack action and describing the damage down when shot. There must be a time between the free action to create the arrow and the attack action to fire it when the Soulbow has created the arrow and has not fired it. Nothing says it "must" be fired. There are two actions, not one.


    Fortunately, I have the Complete Psionic entry here. I'll go bit by bit.

    The first paragraph explains that you can create a semisolid mind arrow as a free action; that's fine. The same first paragraph explains that you can create multiple arrows as part of an attack if you have high enough base attack bonus. That would imply you can either create 1-4 arrows each time you attack, or it could imply something else; essentially, that on your full attack action you can create as many arrows as actions to attack (including Haste, Rapid Shot, etc.)

    The second paragraph implies the properties; it is shot as if using a composite longbow of the creature's size, with all possibilities (range, damage, critical threat range), except for the visuals (you aren't pulling a bow, you are shooting the bow from your hand, hence you get a hand free), and that instead of Strength you add your Wisdom to damage.

    The third paragraph explains what happens to the soulbow's mind arrow (it lasts for 1 round, whether it hits or misses). This is crucial, because otherwise the arrow could remain permanently and thus be used by someone else (thus generating free customizable arrows).

    By RAI, the idea is that you make your attack action, and then you conjure the arrow as a free action (not as a swift action, or else you could only conjure one arrow); not the opposite. By RAW, there's nothing that explains that you have a time range between creating the arrow and shooting it aside from creating the arrow as a free action and shooting it as an attack/full attack action. By all means, the RAW is ambivalent there; it could be inclining to your reading or to the RAI reading; what's worse, the SRD usually implies that free actions can be done as part of other actions you take, so there's a slight inclination that you can't do it on your own (you can generate a mind arrow while moving by RAW, you can generate mind arrows while attacking by RAW, but not generate mind arrows while the enemy attacks you).

    Then comes the judge's reading on that one. In this one, I went with "what would a regular DM do?" Assuming it's not someone who likes cool things, someone who plays by the book and that generally seeks to provide a good balance between enforcing the rules and giving some leeway to it, the reading wouldn't really fly off. Thing is, your entire build is based upon generating a mind arrow and using it in an awkward way; I focused on that a bit more than if the reading was right or wrong, because it depends on a reading. By DM fiat, your entire trick could go wrong, and your Soulknife/Soulbow levels would be just additions. This is a bit on what I focused; if the trick is reasonable and works with little problems, I didn't punish it that much, but if the build depends on weird readings and things that depend on the DM agreeing or not, I generally bash them down. This is the same as Uthunan's trick or Eric's trick; they are pretty funny, pretty cool, but in the end I find various ways to take them down and that cripples their power. As well, they tend to leave a bad taste in my mouth because it relies on player-inclined DM fiat.

    There is one final thing. I mentioned the "let's assume it DOES work" bit. I took consideration on the build working, actually; it would be a 1d8+Wis mind arrow shot like a dagger (because if you notice the arrow description, it mentions, albeit as a melee weapon, that it works like a dagger of its size) so it works for Palm Throw, AND you add the 1d12 points of damage, AND you replace that with your unarmed strike damage. Remember when I said the 38 points of damage with two arrows? That's based on average rolls, actually (not random). Even then, your damage potential and tactics aren't surprising; your mind arrows aren't magical (though they could, that depends on using mind blade gauntlets but that also requires looking for them, and as you might have seen, I like magic items to be options, not requirements), and they don't really provide any benefit from Soulknife that could really matter. If you had, instead of spending all the levels of Master Thrower, added levels in Soulbow to get +1 mind arrows and +1 mind arrow weapon special quality equivalents, your improvised mind daggers would have worked even better, and while you would have lost a few tricks, you could have retorted with elemental qualities; heck, in case you haven't noticed, returning is within the list of mind arrow special enhancements, and that delivers quite a lot of weird options.

    So, before thinking I removed points because it was a flimsy trick (IMO, it does), I removed it because when I see the potentials of damage of the others, or the tricks they use alongside the damage, yours wasn't really potent or using the improvised tricks at all (improvised tricks, not the thrown tricks). What's worse, it shows a bit of reliance on magic items: your Int and Wis would have allowed for 6 bottles of booze, which is respectable enough, without any need for the belt; the Wis score is quite high enough, and the 9 points between Wisdom and Dexterity were reasonable enough compared to the AC of others, but not quite high enough for the level. Your Wis was quite good enough for attack and damage already; that just artificially inflated it. If I had saw the build without magic items (or placing the magic items within options, and specifically not adding tomes because the chance of getting a tome is as rare as reaching Epic, if not lower), I might have considered the build a bit more. Without those, your damage potential reduces considerably (since you don't get to hit more, or to deal more damage), which directly lowers the power of your build. If you look at it, the drop that filled the vase was that the trick relies on an unclear reading; it's not the source of the problem, but rather what exploits it. It becomes the basis of the problem when you consider that the entire basis of the build (with the other two problems I mentioned) was to support the potential of this tactic; if it worked, the core of the problem would have been another.

    Hopefully it's explained enough?


    Second dispute
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    The build only works with Drunken Master. No other class could throw objects while using unarmed strike damage. The 2-8 levels of Drunken Master gives 13 damage very attack and is worth taking. Very few prestige classes could match that.


    Take away Soulknife, take away Soulbow. Maybe add Fighter, or Ranger; something that grants you bonuses to ranged attacks. Then take Invisible Blade.

    If going for rare and unusual readings, the arrow (when using it as a melee weapon) behaves like a dagger of its size. By RAW (and that's a more clear reading of it), you could use Weapon Focus (dagger) and attack with an arrow while taking the +1 bonus; just by that, you could add the Dagger Sneak Attack tactic from IB, as well as take advantage of the synergy with Master Thrower, even if only taking one level or two. Heck, remove levels of Drunken Master, take only ONE, and you still add your unarmed strike damage to the attack plus something else. With 3d8, I already took the 1d12 of the improvised weapon extra damage and defeated it (minimum 3, maximum 24, average 13), and it relies on a reading that's a bit much more supported by RAW than mind arrows being shot. It could also free your build for more exploitables (Monk + Rogue = Ascetic Rogue, and that means more unarmed strike damage, plus trapfinding which makes your build a bit less one-trick and a bit more useful). And with two sources of evasion, you can get rid of one, or even get one more Monk level and add Invisible Fist, which would have synergized so nicely, it would have racked up elegance.

    It's just a question of what could be done with a similar tactic. The problem, of course, is that arrows cost a lot, so you'd need something to create arrows at a whim, hence why you thought of Soulbow (that, plus you add your Wisdom to damage). Just taking ONE level of Drunken Master would have been enough; Improved Feint can be gained elsewhere, and would have freed many more levels. Heck, the description for Simon's use of Drunken Master uses only Drunk Like a Demon (which could justify only a bit the acquisition of levels), improvised weapons, and Improved Feint; Improved Improvised Weapons is never mentioned (not even for the table = tower shield trick!), and Swaying Waist/For Medicinal Purposes are pretty much orphan, with some difficulties to optimize (and some did wonders with Swaying Waist).

    So even with the few PrCs that could match damage (and some proved that they can outmatch you in melee, while many other builds outmatch you in ranged), the entry build was not surprising enough. Flimsy reading or not.


    Chieftain Nini the Whiskey King
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    Nini (Originality): As pointed out earlier in the thread, Unapproachable East has a 3.5 update, which changed nothing about Shou Disciple. Therefore, it's fair game for 3.5. Also, you mention a table I can't use. Are you referring to the sidebar on Shou Disciples and unarmed strikes? This is irrelevant, because Nini strikes entirely with improvised weapons.


    That was a commentary, but one can't always assume that Unapproachable East had an update, or at least you could have mentioned it (instead of allowing it to be assumed).

    Notice that I said "that's of little importance". Good? It was a comment, it didn't affect originality at all.

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    Nini (Elegance): Shou Disciple 5 allows Nini to flurry with all weapons, not just light weapons. This allows Nini to pounce with two-handed improvised weapons, improving his base damage from a high STR as well as his Power Attack/Leap Attack damage.


    A bit of an oversight, but that didn't affect the build at all. Taking one or taking all levels of Shou Disciple doesn't affect at all the Elegance of the build; the fact that you can already flurry with light weapons and strike with the unarmed strike damage on both is already surprising, which is why just taking Shou Disciple was merit enough for Elegance.


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    Nini (Originality): Who else submitted a dragonborn? There was a Dragonfire Adept, and an unfinished submission that would have used dragonborn, but Nini stands as the only official dragonborn entry. Also, he gains the Heart aspect (as a dragonborn only gains one aspect, he cannot also take Mind or Wings). Not mentioning the selected aspect was my fault, as I thought mentioning the breath weapon would be clearer than it was.


    Hmm...I could have sworn Eric was a dragonborn. Heck, I wonder why Eric wasn't a dragonborn...his trick would have gotten some good early power actually...even if his trick was breath-boosting and not improvised weapons... Anyways!

    I noticed later on that Nini has the Heart aspect, but that was something I was unaware while judging, and that removes part of the merit. Though, that punishment rightfully belongs on Elegance, not Originality.

    Really, here I was swearing Eric was a dragonborn, because his was so full of draconic flavor...which is partly the reason why I didn't add a lot on the Originality side. There's no mention on how Nini became a dragonborn, which again makes it look like it was tacked on a whim instead of being something crucial; if you had just, just said that having a rebirth as a representative of the Shining Serpent, it wouldn't had been perceived as a whim and there would have been mondo points for Originality.

    This merits a +1 increase in Originality, but you still get a bit removed because the reason (to turn into a Dragonborn) wasn't really explored. Again, I could have sworn that Eric was a Dragonborn.

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    Nini (Elegance): [in regards to Nini's background] The two ranks of Knowledge:local represent passed-down history, recollections, and legends about the Blackfoot's native land of Shou (mentioned in the beginning of Nini's backstory). The way I envisioned it, Shou is analagous to China/Russia, and the first Blackfoots migrated from there to "America" much like some Native American tribes. The jungle variant halfling was done on a mechanical level to avoid the barbarian multiclass penalty, I admit, but on a flavor level it was done because I see the Blackfoots living in a jungle/forest environment post-migration (like some parts of pre-explored America). There was a flavor-based reason for Dragonborn involving worship of The Shining Serpent (echoing asian dragons and some naturalist Native American traditions), but I accidentally left it out in my final edit, so no dispute there. Finally, though, why do you question if the race choice is legal?


    Because my Shou could be different from your Shou. That's why I made a point of mentioning southern China; that's the closest thing you could consider to a jungle, and it's not treated as a jungle; but for purposes of not-technicalities, it's a jungle. Then there's China/Russia, which means you'd be closer to northern China and less humid, more cold forests which don't deal with "jungle" at all (more forests, actually). There's no particular description of jungles in Shou, aside from the Endless Wastes and that Shou resembles China (not Russia; to me, Rashemen is Russia, closer to Siberia) with parts of Mongolia (or that specific region, which would include the Himalayas and Tibet). I was quite considerate with the jungle bit, but I don't see it. I could see that Chieftain Nini and the Blackroots could have come from Maztica, but with the establishment they could have just turned into a nomadic tribe of regular Faerunian halflings with some rare traits. In summary; it's the jungle bit that worries me, because I know very little of Shou (and what I read about Shou doesn't support that), so it would seem like you chose it for mechanical aspects (hence why I said that jungle halfling exists mostly to prevent an XP penalty; had I ignored XP penalties and made favored classes a fluff or different option, would Chieftain Nini still had been a jungle halfling? I did indicate that you had access to shortbow, which is quite good, but then I thought of Simon and his attempts to use improvised weapons and I thought that a regular halfling could have worked just as well with the thrown weapon attack bonuses.

    Perhaps if there was a stronger link between jungle and forest (a jungle is a name for one of the many forests, so a jungle IS a forest but a forest doesn't necessarily has to be a jungle; there are dry forests after all). Regardless, it's the lack of explanation between the fluff that hurt the elegance, and I believe the 4.0 is reasonable enough. Maybe a further +.5 for a 4.5 because it's mostly misunderstandings rather than actual worrisome traits.

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    Nini (Power): Nini's items were listed simply as "gear to consider." None of it is required or considered in Nini's posted damage total, nor are bonuses from high ability scores. Admittedly, Nini requires some stat-boosting items to hold the full number of drinks, but he would still function as written in a no-magic campaign, complete with his solid defenses and damage output.


    Oh, I seriously considered that. Quite. What got me wasn't the need for magic items, but the fact that you could do so much with your size and your combat tactics. You take a weapon that's treated as a two-handed weapon for you, charge, leap, pummel with Skirmish, Corkscrew Rush the enemy into oblivion, then you hide and use it as a living shield. That's several levels of awesome, and that was really what earned quite a bit of power; hence why I said "Strength 30 doesn't surprise me".

    But let's go for the ability scores table. Without the enhancements and the inherent scores, you would have had Strength 14 (Strength 19 at 20th level), Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. Certainly that wouldn't be seen as surprising, but you do lots with those scores. It's their inclusion in the table (implying they'll be eventually acquired) that hurts the build, because it's implying that the scores are needed; otherwise, you could have just placed the main scores later and add the table in the optionals so that you could show the power of the build with and without them. Certainly, I noticed that you had them separately, but it was that inclusion of the table and them added into the scores that made me change my mind.

    When I wrote Power, something I tackled quite well was the use of Tomes. I don't mind stat-boosting items so as long as you consider that they may not be purchased (and if it was a +2 boosting item, then quite probably I wouldn't have minded at all). The thing was that they were on that little table; it's elegant, of course, to present those on a table so as to determine the potential increases, but no matter how much I try to see it, I don't see how mentioning those in a clearly visible spot makes them something "optional" or "to consider" (the latter means that there's a very good reason why you SHOULD get them, but it retains that thing of optional and not required or demanded).

    Again, what got me on Power wasn't the fact you could dish all that damage, but that you could have all those options AND STILL have a wonderful defense. Well...that was really Elegance, but just seeing Power Attack, Leap Attack, Skirmish, Rage, Drunk Like a Demon and Corkscrew Rush in the same build told me this was a powerful one-trick pony; then you add Confound the Big Folk, Elusive Target and Underfoot Combat and you retort back with the second part of a two-parter trick, which in the end opens more options like tripping, minor enemy controlling and better defenses. That of course brings it from the realm of a trick and the realm of a fighting style, with options relying on a single tactic but whose options dwarf the penalties of the tactic itself. And that adds to power. Perhaps a further +.5 (for a total of 4.0) should suffice? It still has the problems of charger tactics, of course, and that is a solid -1, while the mention and implication of Belt of Magnificence and all tomes merited a clear -1 (but I reduced it to -.5 originally because it was inconsequential to the build's base power, more than its added power). The added +.5 is to counter that you insist is not intentional, but since I want to be firm, the addition will instead go for the charger tactics reduction since the penalties are mostly ignored by the benefits (and all you really need is to ignore flight and incorporealness penalties because illusion-protected enemies become your defenses as well).
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Simon:
    Even then, your damage potential and tactics aren't surprising; your mind arrows aren't magical
    Let me just point this out, about Soulknives, since I love'em:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-12-01 at 02:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    The same holds for mind arrows as well. See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Complete Psionic, page 36
    Whether a mind arrow hits or misses, it dissipates 1 round after being shot. A mind arrow is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2010-12-01 at 02:31 PM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    Does the same hold true for mind arrows? The Soulbow entry in Complete Psionic mentions some soulknife class features that can be used in conjunction with mind arrows, but makes no mention of whether they're treated as magical before gaining the +1 equivalent bonus.
    Yeah, I'm not sure myself anymore. I could swear Soulbow progressed mindblades, but it's a separate progression.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    See above--mind arrows are treated as magic weapons as per Complete Psionic.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar
    Take away Soulknife, take away Soulbow. Maybe add Fighter, or Ranger; something that grants you bonuses to ranged attacks. Then take Invisible Blade.
    You're right about this feasibly adding as much or more to your ranged attacks, but be careful when you start making statements like this. Your proposed build to not need Drunken Master completely misses the point: you're not shooting mind arrows, fluff-wise. Crunch-wise, this is a fantastic way to get Unarmed damage at a range, and your proposed build doesn't do that.

    I know it's a slippery slope, but if you discount this stuff, you're 2 steps away from "why bother? play a Wizard."
    Last edited by Pechvarry; 2010-12-01 at 03:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    Simon.


    The descrtiption reads:

    "In all other ways the mind arrows is treated as a shot from a composite longbow..."

    The text then goes on to describe what feats can modify the projection of the mind arrow.

    Nowhere does the text mention whether the mind arrow can be used for anything other than creating the equivalent of a bow shot. Just that it hangs around long enough to be modified by spells and powers.

    Using the Mind Arrow in melee is not covered. Despite the text stating that the Mind Arrow remains in existence for 1 round, the only use that is stated is that is can create the equivalent of a shot from a composite longbow.

    As far as I am concerned, the interpretation is not RAW. I'm going to make the leap and suggest it is not RAI either. I have spent far too much time on this. I have nothing further to add.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

    As it seems all disputes have been addressed to some degree, here's the most recent tally (by my count, but let me know if I missed anything):

    {table=head]Name|Place|Total|Average
    Chieftain Nini|GOLD|61.5|3.84375
    Laph Roaig|SILVER|56|3.5
    Vermillion|SILVER|56|3.5
    Bu the Hobo Fist|BRONZE*|54|3.375
    Gazebo Jones|Fifth|52.5|3.28125
    Eric Redscale|Sixth|50|3.125
    Simon the Incompetent Archer|Seventh|43.5|2.71875
    Uthunan Kavuilika|Eighth|42.5|2.65625[/table]

    *or fourth, depending on how a tie is handled.
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