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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    Something else to point out is Belkar never stood trial for killing that guard. The mark of justice was put on him outside the legal system. It's possible that he would have been found innocent... an odd thing to think when we're thinking of Belkar, but just the same. Keep in mind the entire imprisoning and the trial of the OOTS was extra-legal.

    Of course in Belkar's mind what he was doing was murder. On the other hand, Haley probably thought she was simply defending herself... as shown by the fact that as soon as she found she wouldn't simply be put to death, she stopped.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by SoC175 View Post
    How so? For all we know they could have had sex before her flight. Being an ambassador of an evil nation send to another evil nation could be expected/trained to have sex with important officials of the host nation as part of her repertoire even while being actually married back at home. Tarquin just told her after the sex that he looks forward to their marriage and when she told him she already has a husband he told her it doesn't matter, causing her to run from his room.
    We have no reason to believe they had sex. And every reason to believe they didn't have sex.

    Yes, Rich tried to make us think they did have sex. But, despite the lasting power of first impressions, it is all but certain they didn't (see the interminable argument in the discussion thread for all of the back and forth).

    Rich pulled a fast one on the readership. That's all that there is here.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl45DM! View Post
    Haley's act was resisting unlawful arrest since she was innocent of all crimes accused and the guards attacking her are part of an evil empire that has slaves and routine maiming as part of the high school curriculum. Killing evil beings that are going to kill you, as they were going to kill her before Tarquin ordered differently, is different to killing a nice bloke who was bringing you food and talked to you like a human despite being in jail, when killing him actually hindered any escape attempt
    What made it "unlawful" for the guards to arrest her? She was heavily armed, she was escaping from the freakin' royal palace. In what legal system would that not be considered reasonable grounds for arrest?

    Even if she'd been taken there unlawfully (which she wasn't), how would the guards have been supposed to know that?

    And what makes you (or her) assume that the guards were evil?

    You could argue (Haley might well argue) that all guards in the EoB must be evil, because their job will routinely require them to commit evil acts. But that's an argument we haven't, as far as I've seen, actually had yet. Does it make a difference if guards are not volunteers, but coerced into the job? Is it possible for them to avoid committing evil personally, or use their position to prevent their colleagues from doing it? These things might make a difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrl View Post
    "They didn't change the alignment system, they just augmented its inherent weaknesses and limitations with a few gaping holes."
    "Fairy tales do not tell children that dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children that dragons can be killed." - G K Chesterton


  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    The Guard was a genuinely nice guy who never made the slightest threat against Belkar.
    And you know the EoB ones weren't because...?

    Plus, what exactly being nice changes? If the guard was rude, does that give Belkar free hand in killing him?

    Belkar surprised and killed him, despite there being no need to, he could have waited till the guard was gone and then escaped.
    First, he couldn't, he had to escape while guard held the door open.

    Second, what exactly was Haley's need to kill them? 1d6+1 damage with 5% chance of connecting? When she has blackjack, ability to deal nonlethal damage, and hide skill?

    Something else to point out is Belkar never stood trial for killing that guard.
    Never?

    Keep in mind the entire imprisoning and the trial of the OOTS was extra-legal.
    Which makes Belkar even less evil than Haley, as he was escaping illegal arrest. That's why he had the charges reduced.

    Haley? Escapes perfectly legal apprehension by guards who had her tagged as succubus, known accomplice of the traitor Nale - and instead of doing good thing, like Roy and Durkon did when apprehended by Miko - going with them to explain herself, she casually murders them all.

    And to the other posters - sorry, no amount of spinning will make apprehension attempt "killing her", not that they were capable of doing so, nor repeating "they had it coming" will make murder of potentially LG law officers neutral in any way.

    Not that killing them would have been okay even if they tried to kill her, as she already made clear she is not going to be arrested by running and was too dangerous to be left unchecked - even Paladins would have tried to kill her in that situation.

    On the other hand, Haley probably thought she was simply defending herself...
    Soooo~...! Thog is CG because to him, nothing is murder?

    as shown by the fact that as soon as she found she wouldn't simply be put to death, she stopped.
    Oh, when Thog gets cake, he also stops his random killing sprees. Let me guess, is he LG, then? :P
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    *cough* ... "What morality?"
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Irbis View Post
    Haley? Escapes perfectly legal apprehension by guards who had her tagged as succubus, known accomplice of the traitor Nale - and instead of doing good thing, like Roy and Durkon did when apprehended by Miko - going with them to explain herself, she casually murders them all.
    She tried to explain herself and the fact that Elan is not Nale. It feel on deaf ears and the Empress of Blood decided to just eat Elan. Knowing that the all powerful monarch just declared your execution, you really think anyone sane (no matter what alignment is on their character sheet) is going to explain themselves to the guards at that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irbis View Post
    And to the other posters - sorry, no amount of spinning will make apprehension attempt "killing her", not that they were capable of doing so, nor repeating "they had it coming" will make murder of potentially LG law officers neutral in any way.
    How so? Honestly, if your going to make refute the claims of other people, the least you could do is to provide evidence to support it. Otherwise, it's you, not them who's is spinning the idea that guards are out to apprehend her and not kill - despite evidence to the contrary.

    Finally, you also keep claim that the guards are low level and thus have no ability to be a threat to Haley. If that's the case, then wouldn't these guards be no threat to any adventurer. That makes me wonder, what's keeping people like Gannji, Enor, Belkar, or anyone else from walking out of the arena.

    So explain your reasoning - why are the palace guards level 1?
    Last edited by Pyron; 2010-11-24 at 12:48 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    I don't know the rules for the blackjack and i dont know what your 5% of connecting is. But i will say that any guard who works for the EOB is evil or Neutral at best for a certainty. They were trying to kill her as evidenced by Tarquin's command to apprehend rather than kill. She was taken unlawfully by BOUNTY HUNTERS not even true guards and a red dragon threatened to eat her and Malack wouldn't listen.

    Belkar is a high level combat oriented adventure who couldve busted the door open. Coup de graceing the guard who had just proven his good alingment through unneccessary kindness, when there was no need is evil. Belkar doesn't care for the OOTS and could have escaped scot free before the guard came too. Unneccessary evil. So yes being nice made a differance the EOB guards are in no way ever close to being LG and calling them LN is a stretch. If they are being coerced then let Haley go, she's a rogue its not unreasonable to assume she escaped and was unable to be caught. LE would be the default assumption so killing is so very justified when they are also trying to kill her.
    Haley is CG
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    An unenchanted sap deals 1d6+strength modifier damage, nonlethal. It's possible she could have taken out the guards with that but we don't have any real idea of what the guards are capable of other than that Haley killed them, but not without taking a couple of hits and that they intended to kill her.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Irbis View Post
    And you know the EoB ones weren't because...?

    Plus, what exactly being nice changes? If the guard was rude, does that give Belkar free hand in killing him?

    I think this has been mentioned twice before, but the inherent evilness of the Empire makes working for them evil. IIRC, paladins can become fallen through association with evil, but as seen in Roy's review by the deva, in OOTS-world, association with evil characters/organizations is grounds for putting alignment into question under any circumstances.


    First, he couldn't, he had to escape while guard held the door open.

    Second, what exactly was Haley's need to kill them? 1d6+1 damage with 5% chance of connecting? When she has blackjack, ability to deal nonlethal damage, and hide skill?
    So, he could have jumped out and then ran off.

    Perhaps none, but she was fighting in self-defence, against guards who were probably evil, who only received orders to take her alive after they died.

    Which makes Belkar even less evil than Haley, as he was escaping illegal arrest. That's why he had the charges reduced.

    Haley? Escapes perfectly legal apprehension by guards who had her tagged as succubus, known accomplice of the traitor Nale - and instead of doing good thing, like Roy and Durkon did when apprehended by Miko - going with them to explain herself, she casually murders them all.

    And to the other posters - sorry, no amount of spinning will make apprehension attempt "killing her", not that they were capable of doing so, nor repeating "they had it coming" will make murder of potentially LG law officers neutral in any way.

    Not that killing them would have been okay even if they tried to kill her, as she already made clear she is not going to be arrested by running and was too dangerous to be left unchecked - even Paladins would have tried to kill her in that situation.
    Does escaping arrest from an evil authority make you evil?

    And if we're going to make comparisons with Miko's arrest, frankly I don't think Haley wanted to get laid with any of the guards.

    So, self-defence is now evil?


    Soooo~...! Thog is CG because to him, nothing is murder?


    Oh, when Thog gets cake, he also stops his random killing sprees. Let me guess, is he LG, then? :P
    The point is, motive counts. Thog kills for the sheer enjoyment of holding an axe which connects with someone's body, while Haley was killing in self-defence.

    And nobody claimed that Haley or Thog was LG.

    And a final point, you have made consistent reference to the belief that her killing the guards was unnecessary and gratuitous. Does that make a group of slightly-inept adventurers of various degrees of good adventuring with a CE psychopath going through a dungeon killing people partly to satisfy an allegedly LG fighter's ego, partly because they have green skin and fangs, and partly just to kill evil characters and take their stuff evil?
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  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    I'd just like to point out that Irbis declared Haley evil and worthy of the Nine Hells well before the guards-killing.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Kobold

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmflavius View Post
    So, he could have jumped out and then ran off.
    Halfling tactical movement rate: 20'. Human: 30'. Even with +10' for being a Barbarian - assuming he even knows about that ability - he can't outrun the guard. To say nothing of the (potentially) dozens of other guards who may be within earshot.

    Perhaps none, but she was fighting in self-defence, against guards who were probably evil, who only received orders to take her alive after they died.
    "Probably evil"... Okay, first of all - who assesses this "probably"? Secondly, how exactly does that make a difference? Good characters are (supposed) to have "respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings". Not "non-evil sentient beings".

    Does escaping arrest from an evil authority make you evil?
    How about escaping arrest from a Lawful Good authority - would that make you evil?

    No, resisting/escaping arrest isn't evil - more chaotic - but that has nothing to do with the alignment of whoever's holding you. What's at issue is not "escaping", it's "killing people".

    So, self-defence is now evil?
    Does "gunning down cops as you flee from the bank" count as self-defence?

    And a final point, you have made consistent reference to the belief that her killing the guards was unnecessary and gratuitous. Does that make a group of slightly-inept adventurers of various degrees of good adventuring with a CE psychopath going through a dungeon killing people partly to satisfy an allegedly LG fighter's ego, partly because they have green skin and fangs, and partly just to kill evil characters and take their stuff evil?
    For what it's worth, I don't believe Haley is evil. I think she is, in her own words, "Chaotic Good. Ish".

    But I see the entire point of OOTS as an extended essay on the subtleties and difficulties of the D&D alignment system. Haley thinks that she understands alignment, and I think her attitude would pass without comment in a 1e AD&D party, but by the logic of modern 3e "absolute morality" it looks shaky.

    That's why we're forever having these morality/alignment threads that run for page after page after page of argument - because the whole freakin' point of the story is to stir up these kinds of debates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrl View Post
    "They didn't change the alignment system, they just augmented its inherent weaknesses and limitations with a few gaping holes."
    "Fairy tales do not tell children that dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children that dragons can be killed." - G K Chesterton


  12. - Top - End - #132
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    So, self-defence is now evil?
    Does "gunning down cops as you flee from the bank" count as self-defence?
    fleeing from a bank robbery is different from fleeing from a group of people that hunted you down and arrest you for something you didn't do, and then failed to care that you didn't do it.
    Impossible is a biased statement.
    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    link to the thread translating Haley's babel speech
    this is a must read for all: Common misconceptions (i am in no way joking, please read it)

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felixc-91 View Post
    fleeing from a bank robbery is different from fleeing from a group of people that hunted you down and arrest you for something you didn't do, and then failed to care that you didn't do it.
    And, since Tarquin had to tell the guards to apprehend her, it's fairly safe to assume that they intended to kill her.

    If somebody is trying to kill you, if you kill them in response, it's self defense. There are of course factors that make the act good or bad, but I don't think this qualifies as bad.

    Also, I don't think Haley had a sap on her at that point, so I don't think she'd be capable of knocking the guards out.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    Zmflavius
    I think this has been mentioned twice before, but the inherent evilness of the Empire makes working for them evil. IIRC, paladins can become fallen through association with evil, but as seen in Roy's review by the deva, in OOTS-world, association with evil characters/organizations is grounds for putting alignment into question under any circumstances.
    so wrong, the only reason belkar's actions and alignment had any effect on roy was because roy was his party leader.
    Last edited by Felixc-91; 2010-11-25 at 12:50 AM.
    Impossible is a biased statement.
    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    link to the thread translating Haley's babel speech
    this is a must read for all: Common misconceptions (i am in no way joking, please read it)

  15. - Top - End - #135
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    Also, I don't think Haley had a sap on her at that point, so I don't think she'd be capable of knocking the guards out.
    Even if she did, it's a dead-end to argue that she should have used it to knock-out instead of kill the guards. That assumes that:

    1. The guards had practically 0 chance of defeating her, proven false by the damage she took during the fight

    2. Those guards were the only ones in the vicinity, and that Haley would not run into more guards later, which is proven false within a few strips when we see her being escorted by a guard, or that Haley would be able to defeat them with a sap without taking any damage, again proven false by the at least moderate amounts of damage she took from the fight.

    These conditions must hold true because in that situation, one must plan to have to fight for as long as possible, and that means finishing fights while taking the least amount of damage possible. It would be one thing to avoid killing guards while attempting a solo escape. Not so when your companions' lives are likely on the line, as the EoB to that point had shown no willingness to spare any of their lives, so you have to get to your allies as fast as possible to help them escape, while remaining un-captured.

    Unfortunately, not everyone can be JC Denton and knock-out an entire squad of soldiers with nothing more than a baton and a crossbow. Most of the time pragmatism takes precedence over pacifism.
    Last edited by Bulzeeb; 2010-11-25 at 01:11 AM. Reason: Post referenced to had post following it while was typing response, adding quote for clarity

  16. - Top - End - #136
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    Killing Evil people who are trying to kill you is not evil
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  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    Ignoring the complex debate and just focusing on the origonal post, people will make excuses/outright ignore facts, for chracthers they like. Some people just can't accept their favourite characther is evil, no matter how many people he kills for fun.
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  18. - Top - End - #138
    The Big Footprint Administrator
     
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    Default Re: Morality in OotS

    Didn't we put a moratorium on "Is X action morally justified?" threads. I think we did. Yes, we definitely did.

    Whatever point this thread had to begin with, it has long since become, "Was Haley/Belkar morally justified in escaping?"

    *locked*
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