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    Default Feinting partial fix (3.5 PEACH)

    As they stand, the rules for feinting are a bit crap. Now, I'm not saying this is a perfect solution, and nor is it meant to be, but it is a partial solution, and one that can perhaps be built on by discussion with you forumites. The problem that I am trying to solve is that making a feint is often a waste of a standard (or move) action. Mechanically it is a poor choice, and thematically a feint action takes too long given how quick feints are made in a normal fight.

    I've done a quick search and have't really found any other fixes, but if you could point me in the right direction, I'd be glad to read them. Without futher wasting time:

    Feinting

    Feinting allows you to decieve your opponent so that their defenses are in the wrong position to prevent your true attack. Feinting is a swift action that provokes an attack of opportunity. To feint, make an attack roll as normal. If the attack roll "hits", it deals no damage. Instead, for your next attack only, your opponent counts as being flanked, even if there are no allies providing you with a flankng bonus. This allows rogues to make sneak attacks against an opponent, even if there is no ally to provide a flanking bonus. If there is already an ally providing you with a flanking bonus you get an additional +2 bonus to hit. If the check fails, you provoke an additional attack of opportunity. Using a two-handed weapon with a feint check suffers a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Characters with uncanny dodge may treat their AC as being 4 higher against feint attempts. Characters that are immune to being flanked are also immune to feint attempts.

    Improved Feint

    Your ability to decieve an opponent is better than most

    Prerequisite:
    Dex 13

    Benefit: You may use a bluff check instead of an attack roll to perform a feint against a DC equal to your opponent's AC. In addition, you may use a sense motive check, instead of your AC, to set the DC of any feint attempts made against you. Making a feint attempt now does not provoke an attack of opportunity, however if you fail the check you will still provoke an attack of opportunity as normal.

    Normal:
    A character without Improved Feint must use an attack roll to make a feint attempt, and rely on their AC to protect them against feints. Feinting provokes an attack of opportunity.

    Special:
    A Fighter may select this as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats.

    Greater Feint

    Your ability to decieve an opponent is second to none

    Prerequisite:
    Dex 13, Improved Feint, bluff 8 ranks or BAB +5

    Benefit: The benefits from feinting now last until the start of your next turn. In addition to this, upon a successful feint attempt, the benefit from your feint extends to any allies in combat with the same opponent.

    Normal:
    The benefits from feinting with the improved feint feat only last until your next attack.

    Special:
    A Fighter may select this as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats.
    _____

    Primary result of this: Feinting can now be done as part of a full attack action (and combines well with TWF). Rogues who feint can get sneak attacks in on the same round that they feint, even when facing an opponant on their own.
    Last edited by cheezewizz2000; 2010-11-25 at 03:12 AM.
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    Default Re: Feinting partial fix (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by cheezewizz2000 View Post
    As they stand, the rules for feinting are a bit crap. Now, I'm not saying this is a perfect solution, and nor is it meant to be, but it is a partial solution, and one that can perhaps be built on by discussion with you forumites. The problem that I am trying to solve is that making a feint is often a waste of a standard (or move) action. Mechanically it is a poor choice, and thematically a feint action takes too long given how quick feints are made in a normal fight.

    I've done a quick search and have't really found any other fixes, but if you could point me in the right direction, I'd be glad to read them. Without futher wasting time:

    Feinting

    As part of a normal attack, you can turn an attack into a feint. If you do not have the feat "improved feint" you suffer a -4 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack roll "hits", it deals no damage. Instead, for the remainder of that round your opponent counts as being flanked, even if there are no allies providing you with a flankng bonus. If there is already an ally providing you with a flanking bonus, then both you and your ally get an additional +2 bonus to hit. If multiple allies use feints, the bonuses stack. If the check fails, you provoke an attack of opportunity.

    Improved Feint

    Your ability to decieve an opponent is second to none

    Prerequisite:
    Dex 13, Bluff 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks.

    Benefit: You may use a bluff check instead of an attack roll to perform a feint against a DC equal to your opponent's AC. Performing a feint in this way suffers no penalty on the check. In addition, you may use a sense motive check, instead of your AC, to set the DC of any feint attempts made against you.

    Normal:
    A character without Improved Feint must use an attack roll at a -4 penalty to make a feint attempt, and rely on their AC to protect them against feints.

    Special:
    A Fighter may select this as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats.

    _____

    Primary result of this: Feinting can now be done as part of a full attack action (and combines well with TWF). Rogues who feint can get sneak attacks in on the same round that they feint, even when facing an opponant on their own.
    When I looked into the flanking rules, I thought the fact that it takes a standard/move action was the largest drawback. At low levels, even with the improved feint feat this fix actually nerfs flanking if you can only do one attack per round. You spend that attack feinting, and then you can't actually do anything else. Though I doubt that many builds which really want to flank people only get one attack per round. If you can do two, which is probably the high end of things at low levels without breaking into cheese, the fix doesn't really change anything or maybe makes feinting slightly worse.

    Let's take a stereotypical level 3 human rogue build with and without the homebrew in a duel with an opponent.

    With:

    Feats:
    1st level: TWF, Improved Initiative
    3rd level: Improved feint.

    He's making 2 attacks per round on a full attack and can spend one of those to flank his opponent to get 2d6 sneak attack damage. So, that's overall, one attack, for 2d6+Str+weapon damage. (TWF Penalty and Flanking Bonus cancel each other out).

    Normally:

    1st level: TWF, Improved Feint.
    3rd level: Weapon Finesse

    This guy will feint, though, will as a move action and attack as a standard action. He's got one attack with some weapon against a target's flatfooted AC and no TWF penalty on his attack roll, with the same damage. He also has that third level feat free, so he can get Weapon Finesse, which is kinda necessary if you're a melee rogue.

    In short at low levels this is an ineffective fix, that may actually nerf feinting. Though this comparison doesn't into account teamwork, or the fact that the flanking bonus lasts for the remainder of that round, I still think this raises a valid but very minor concern.

    The main problem though is that, perquisites of Improved Feint are a little high, so it only comes into play at level 3 (unless you're a guy who gets a bonus feat at level 2 and has bluff and sense motive as in class skills which only brings it forward 1 level. Rogue/Fighter Gestalt Maybe?), so until then, you have to take a -4 penalty to fienting which is really annoying, especially at those levels. Granted the check is different, but it's still annoying. Also, as I pointed out earlier, it's a problem for rogues (for whom I'm guessing this fix has in mind), because it allow you to take weapon finesse at level 3 which is a must.

    At high levels, though this becomes really nice, because you're getting multiple attacks and you can actually deal a tonne of SA damage without having to rely on beating their initiative roll, flanking them, or having your spellcaster magic them somehow.

    The way I'd fix it, reduce the perquisites of the Improved Feint feat so you can get it at level one. That'd get rid of the main problem.

    Edit: I also would like it clearly specified how long the opponent is treated as flanked for. I don't really know if it's at the end of my turn, or the beginning of the next turn.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-11-19 at 11:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Feinting partial fix (3.5 PEACH)

    Ok. Point well made. Prereqs reduced.

    Edit: well, they will be when I can update from anything other than my iPhone... 4 ranks each, making the feat available from level 1.
    Last edited by cheezewizz2000; 2010-11-20 at 07:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Feinting partial fix (3.5 PEACH)

    Yeah. I dunno about having the prerequisites at 4 ranks. Bluff and Sense Motive are not fighter class skills and if anyone should be able to feint, it should be Fighters.

    Second of all, you haven't really specified how long the bonus lasts.

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    Default Re: Feinting partial fix (3.5 PEACH)

    Ok, agreed. Hows about these changes then (I'll edit the first post once they've been dismissed/accepted):

    Remove skill prerequisites. Fighters can now take improved feint from level 1.

    Feinting without ImpFeint provokes an attack of opportunity regardless of hit or miss.

    Feinting is a swift action - now sword and board and single weapon fighters can feint and still get an attack in.

    The bonus from feinting lasts for one attack. This means it would not stack with multiple allies feinting, but still helps if you have an ally flanker. (Perhaps improved feint would allow it to last longer).

    Using bluff/sense motive moved to greater feint feat for rogues/bards. Prerequisites set for level 6 entry.

    "Missing" with a feint still provokes an attack of opportunity with the feats to ensure that it is not used ALL the time (otherwise it is essentially a free +2 bonus to attack rolls).
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    Default Re: Feinting partial fix (3.5 PEACH)

    I think that's a lot better. I think you should probably scracth the idea of Greater Feint unless it's a significant improvement on Improved Feint. It may be... but two feats for that, I don't really know if it's worth it. Basically, have it so that with improved feint you can use the bluff skill to feint.

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    smile Re: Feinting partial fix (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    I think that's a lot better. I think you should probably scracth the idea of Greater Feint unless it's a significant improvement on Improved Feint. It may be... but two feats for that, I don't really know if it's worth it. Basically, have it so that with improved feint you can use the bluff skill to feint.
    And the feat stopping feinting from provoking an attack of opportunity gives fighters a reason to take it if they find themselves needing to feint a lot (not that I see them using it).

    Actually, I think I will stick a greater feint in. If improved feint allows you to use bluff checks, greater feint should allow the bonus from a feint to last longer than one attack (perhaps until the start of your next round). Level 6 entry seems a reasonable mark to aim for (just as the full BAB-ers are getting their first iterative attack), though having bluff/sense motive based pre-requisites penalises most full-BAB classes and a BAB pre-req penalises the rogues that this feat is essentially aimed at. Good idea? Any suggestions? (Edit: Possibly prereqs of: Sneak attack 3d6 OR BAB +6)

    Edit: Should I remove the ability for characters with great weapons to feint? It just seems thematically wrong, and they get enough love as it is. At least then it would make TWF a little more viable than it is (essentially removing the -2 penalty to attack for the cost of 2+ feats-steep!), and sword-and-boarders and single-weapon users would get a little mileage out of this.

    Edit Edit: Thank you for this, by the way. It's really appreciated
    Last edited by cheezewizz2000; 2010-11-22 at 08:30 AM.
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    Default Re: Feinting partial fix (3.5 PEACH)

    Okay. I'm really liking the changes here. Greater Feint is a large improvement on Improved Feint and definitely worth the extra feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by cheezewizz2000 View Post
    Actually, I think I will stick a greater feint in. If improved feint allows you to use bluff checks, greater feint should allow the bonus from a feint to last longer than one attack (perhaps until the start of your next round). Level 6 entry seems a reasonable mark to aim for (just as the full BAB-ers are getting their first iterative attack), though having bluff/sense motive based pre-requisites penalises most full-BAB classes and a BAB pre-req penalises the rogues that this feat is essentially aimed at. Good idea? Any suggestions? (Edit: Possibly prereqs of: Sneak attack 3d6 OR BAB +6)
    I think level 6 entry for Greater Feint would be a good idea. It seems like the right time for it, as you've said it's coming in at a time when many characters are starting to make more than one attack a turn, and this is when it really starts to count.

    Maybe you should have the prerequisites based on Base Attack OR Bluff. It makes more sense than having it sneak attack based, largely because sneak attack is about taking advantage of what's the feint achieves, rather than making the feint work in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by cheezewizz2000 View Post
    Edit: Should I remove the ability for characters with great weapons to feint? It just seems thematically wrong, and they get enough love as it is. At least then it would make TWF a little more viable than it is (essentially removing the -2 penalty to attack for the cost of 2+ feats-steep!), and sword-and-boarders and single-weapon users would get a little mileage out of this.
    Maybe... Maybe just impose a penalty for two handed-weapons, say -4. I don't see it as impossible, but it'd be very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by cheezewizz2000 View Post
    Edit Edit: Thank you for this, by the way. It's really appreciated
    Don't worry about it, it's always nice to see a homebrew evolve and grow.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-11-24 at 12:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Feinting partial fix (3.5 PEACH)

    The onl yissue I can see with this, really, is that it relies on making your opponent flanked. That means at higher levels, it leaves rogues no way t respond to similarly levelled barbarians or even other rogues.

    As it is, feinting simply removes their dex, making them open to a sneak attack, since uncanny dodge specifically defends against flat-footing, and invisible attackers.

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    Default Re: Feinting partial fix (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rage of Aeons View Post
    The onl yissue I can see with this, really, is that it relies on making your opponent flanked. That means at higher levels, it leaves rogues no way t respond to similarly levelled barbarians or even other rogues.

    As it is, feinting simply removes their dex, making them open to a sneak attack, since uncanny dodge specifically defends against flat-footing, and invisible attackers.
    Well, they do get improved uncanny dodge a little later, which makes them immune to being flanked by anyone except rogues 4 levels higher than them. Given that a successful feint makes your opponent count as being flanked, I would imagine it would also negate this. The difference between this and old feint, in terms of consequences, is that it now works against characters with uncanny dodge, wheras old feint did not. I don't really see that as a major issue as feinting, as a mechanic, didn't really get much use.

    This set of feats probably won't either, to be fair, though it does give rogues the ability to be a little more deadly when on their own (making them a little more durable as scouts) and lets anyone with both feats provide a little party buff to anyone they're actually flanking with.

    Edit: Also, flanking is a little more useful across the board than denying someone their dex to AC. This is as useful against a heavily armoured fighter with only a +1 to AC from dex as it is against spry Ranger with most of his AC from dex. It's exactly as usless against high level rogues and barbarians as feinting always has been, but has a little more use against low levelled ones. Granted feinting, as written, has the potential to deny massive amounts of AC to a few rare opponents, but as it is here it is less situational.
    Last edited by cheezewizz2000; 2010-11-24 at 04:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Feinting partial fix (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by cheezewizz2000 View Post
    Well, they do get improved uncanny dodge a little later, which makes them immune to being flanked by anyone except rogues 4 levels higher than them. Given that a successful feint makes your opponent count as being flanked, I would imagine it would also negate this. The difference between this and old feint, in terms of consequences, is that it now works against characters with uncanny dodge, wheras old feint did not. I don't really see that as a major issue as feinting, as a mechanic, didn't really get much use.

    This set of feats probably won't either, to be fair, though it does give rogues the ability to be a little more deadly when on their own (making them a little more durable as scouts) and lets anyone with both feats provide a little party buff to anyone they're actually flanking with.

    Edit: Also, flanking is a little more useful across the board than denying someone their dex to AC. This is as useful against a heavily armoured fighter with only a +1 to AC from dex as it is against spry Ranger with most of his AC from dex. It's exactly as usless against high level rogues and barbarians as feinting always has been, but has a little more use against low levelled ones. Granted feinting, as written, has the potential to deny massive amounts of AC to a few rare opponents, but as it is here it is less situational.
    You could add in a clause that increases allows feint to work on those with uncanny dodge. I envisage it would just increase the check/attack roll needed for the feint to be effective.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-11-24 at 11:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Feinting partial fix (3.5 PEACH)

    Clauses added:

    Quote Originally Posted by cheezewizz2000 View Post

    Feinting

    Feinting allows you to decieve your opponent so that their defenses are in the wrong position to prevent your true attack. Feinting is a swift action that provokes an attack of opportunity. To feint, make an attack roll as normal. If the attack roll "hits", it deals no damage. Instead, for your next attack only, your opponent counts as being flanked, even if there are no allies providing you with a flankng bonus. This allows rogues to make sneak attacks against an opponent, even if there is no ally to provide a flanking bonus. If there is already an ally providing you with a flanking bonus you get an additional +2 bonus to hit. If the check fails, you provoke an additional attack of opportunity. Using a two-handed weapon with a feint check suffers a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Characters with uncanny dodge may treat their AC as being 4 higher against feint attempts. Characters that are immune to being flanked are also immune to feint attempts.
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    Default Re: Feinting partial fix (3.5 PEACH)

    I like what you've done there. It makes a lot of sense.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-11-26 at 12:15 AM.

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