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  1. - Top - End - #211
    Troll in the Playground
     
    TheAmishPirate's Avatar

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    This is the new Best Thing Ever (TM)

    I'll certainly set this to "Stew" in the back of my mind, see what I can come up with. Loving it so far.
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  2. - Top - End - #212
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyftir View Post
    I think its time for me to poke in a small suggestion that leads a more talented person to come up with a whole set of mechanics that rock, but I can't for the life of me think o' nuthin' right now.

    Maybe we ditch levels and just have various talents/feats that can be taken based on your original arch-type including rules/feats for adding another arch-type?

    This way instead of leveling you just get. "Legend Points" which you spend on increasing your legend (i.e. abilities)

    Then have certain talents/feats only available to people with a certain amount of "Legendary status" (number of Legend points accumulated).

    Just some ideas.
    In order to do that, we'd either need to ditch d20 altogether, or go for some kind of overcomplicated (not to mention loathsome) Mutants and Masterminds-type points/levels structure.
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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    E6 already partially does that: after level 6, you just get more feats instead of leveling. If we go E7 or E9, we could do something similar: trade X XP for a feat, Y XP for a talent.


    Does anyone know what the "E" actually stands for?

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    E6 already partially does that: after level 6, you just get more feats instead of leveling. If we go E7 or E9, we could do something similar: trade X XP for a feat, Y XP for a talent.


    Does anyone know what the "E" actually stands for?
    It stands for "Epic". As in "Epic 6". As in "Epic level 6". As in "level 6 is the new level 20 and after that you are epic and gain feats instead of levels".
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  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Ah, gotcha.

    I've gone over the d20 modern and fantasy SRDs, here's a list of skills I'd propose we use:

    Skills:

    Acrobatics (1)
    Athletics (2)
    Bluff
    Diplomacy
    Disguise
    Drive (3)
    Forgery (4)
    Handle Animal
    Heal
    Intimidate
    Knowledge: Science (5)
    Knowledge: Urban Legends (6)
    Knowledge: Tall Tales (7)
    Knowledge: Myths (8)
    Knowledge: Medicine
    Listen
    Mechanics (9)
    Move Silently
    Perform
    Ride
    Search
    Sense Motive
    Sleight of Hand (10)
    Spot
    Streetwise (11)
    Survival (12)

    1) Includes Balance, Escape Artist and Tumble
    2) Includes Climb, Jump and Swim
    3) A city skill, for cars
    4) In a setting with passports, deeds of property, stocks, contracts and other highly valuable papers, I'd leave this as a separate skill, instead of integrating it into something else like in other condensed skill system.
    5) General science education, mostly for doctors and other educated city types. Chemistry, physics, Astronomy, Geology and other smart-ass stuff.
    6) Identifies supernatural city creatures
    7) Identifies supernatural range creatures
    8) Identifies supernatural wild creatures
    9) Crafting, repairing and disabling of machines
    10) I wouldn't make gambling a skill, like d20 modern did, but this certainly covers cheating.
    11) Like survival, but only covers the cities. I'd also fold Gather Information into this.
    12) Range and Wild only.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2010-11-30 at 07:06 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    A pity E1 would be rather silly.

    Gambling: Deadlands made gambling a skill, that I rather liked. Basically the results effected how many cards each 'gambler' was dealt. The highest card won. It keeps chance a part of the deal, even for the skilled, but the skilled tend to do better, because they know how to play the game.

    I.e.
    Landron John and They Call me Bill set out to play themselves some cards.
    Landron John rolls a 18, and thus gains 3 cards.
    They Call me Bill rolls a 11, and thus gains 2 cards.
    Whoever has the highest card wins. (Deal actual cards, roll D%, whatever.)

    Also, I like Sneaking and Sensing as their own skills.
    Last edited by ChumpLump; 2010-11-30 at 07:02 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    A pity E1 would be rather silly.
    It certainly would explain why even skilled and awesome people can die from a few shots.

    Perhaps using something similar to 4E's hit points would make sense. Have multiclassing like in 3.5, but have the levels after your first grant you a lower number of hit points.

    ...or wait, that's kind of what Saga Edition already does, doesn't it?


    (On a sidenote, I actually once tried to make an E1 character with nigh-infinite XP to use as a god. It worked wonky and somewhat lulzy, especially explaining how he became a god.)
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    I'm still campaigning for vitality/wound points. If a pistol deals 2d6 points of damage, as in d20 modern, you are dead on a lucky hit.

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    Tumble is listed twice. (Once in Acrobatics, once as its own skill)

    Craft/Repair might not be a bad one either, for other things than engineering. (Gun Maintenance, dream catchers, tailory, Moonshine ect.)
    Weaving Tales should be a skill as well, if not part of a performance skill.

    Edit
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I'm still campaigning for vitality/wound points. If a pistol deals 2d6 points of damage, as in d20 modern, you are dead on a lucky hit.
    I am in accordance with this. I like my games lethal.
    Last edited by ChumpLump; 2010-11-30 at 07:08 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Right. A craft skill is probably necessary. Perform included, that should have been there anyway. Tumble removed.

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    Gambling etc. ... Also, I like Sneaking and Sensing as their own skills.
    Seconding these two ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I'm still campaigning for vitality/wound points. If a pistol deals 2d6 points of damage, as in d20 modern, you are dead on a lucky hit.
    Not if you have a Con score of 13 or higher.

    Also, while I do like vitality/wound points on a conceptual level, I think the chance of instant death by critical hit is a bug, not a feature. I'm not sure why high-lethality combat is really desirable.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    Tumble is listed twice. (Once in Acrobatics, once as its own skill)

    Craft/Repair might not be a bad one either, for other things than engineering. (Gun Maintenance, dream catchers, tailory, Moonshine ect.)
    Weaving Tales should be a skill as well, if not part of a performance skill.
    Seconding this too.
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  12. - Top - End - #222
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    There is no Hide in your list. But if we're going to combine skills, it's probably a good idea to combine it with Move Silently into Stealth and use Perception instead of Spot and Listen.

    Know: Arcana might be good for the magic item stuff. Or have Use Magic Device be used for knowledge on that, as if it is magically imparted rather than actually learned.

    How do people feel about a Use Technological Device skill? Or is that not necessary? (Perhaps it might fit better in a modern day society with computers and all.)

    Also, while I am not familiar with vitality points (they make me think of the LOTR tabletop strategy game, but since you spoke of dice for damage like that I doubt it's like that), lethality is good. Some obscure ways to be brought back from the dead might fit though, at least in the Wild and on the Range, and the Administration Entity probably has some Resurrection Agents to bring back people it wanted to use in its plans.
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  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Also, while I do like vitality/wound points on a conceptual level, I think the chance of instant death by critical hit is a bug, not a feature. I'm not sure why high-lethality combat is really desirable.
    It makes your character feel fragile. Which can have two advantages:
    a) It's more heroic, in a way: superman saving someone from a burning building is nice. John Q. Regular running into a burning building to save someone is a hero.
    b) It creates tension: there's a huge difference between "Well, I have 256 hit points left, I can take a hit or two to the face from that monster" and "One good hit, I'm dead". In such systems, combat is not a desirable outcome, but one to be avoided, especially if being wounded can have permanent consequences (i.e. someone discussed Harnmaster recently, where you can potentially get crippled even when a commoner stabs you with a dagger and you are fully armoured).

    Edit:
    The rule can be found here.

    Basically, in addition to your normal hit points (now named Vitality), you have Wound points. Normal attacks reduce your vitality. If your vitality reaches 0, or you suffer a critical hit, you lose wound points instead. On 0 wound points, you die. IT also introduces some consequences for getting wounded, like fatigue and the potential of being stunned.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2010-11-30 at 07:29 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    b) It creates tension: there's a huge difference between "Well, I have 256 hit points left, I can take a hit or two to the face from that monster" and "One good hit, I'm dead". In such systems, combat is not a desirable outcome, but one to be avoided, especially if being wounded can have permanent consequences (i.e. someone discussed Harnmaster recently, where you can potentially get crippled even when a commoner stabs you with a dagger and you are fully armoured).
    This description just reminded me so much of the Factotum fluff, I was amazed.
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    I know the rules for it. I have Unearthed Arcana. I like the rules for it. What I'm not fond of is the insta-death by critical possibility for heroic characters.

    If Vitality points are luck, last-moment effort and heroic grit, then it seems better to have them wear down over the course of a game session - and since there's not going to be any (or very little) instantaneous magical healing in this system, that's actually a thing that will happen.

    By dropping the "critical hit on wound points", we make the danger less "some guy getting off a lucky shot," and more "pushing your luck."
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    I see.

    Perhaps one could weaken the effects of criticals? Instead of dealing the weapons base damage to wounds, a crit deals 1 wound, or 2, in the case of a x3 weapon.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    On skills: Perhaps Brewing/Distilling/Vinting (Vinting? Is that the right word for making wine? I mean, they're called vinters, right? ) should be it's own skill that affects the outcome on making your "magic 'shine". Just a thought.

    On wound/vitality points: I have UA, and I like the system, conceptually. I've never had the opportunity to use it, but I think it's more appropriate for a combat-light game, which is what I enjoy.
    Last edited by dsmiles; 2010-11-30 at 08:08 AM.
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    Well, that would fall under craft, if we included that as a general skill. Craft (Brewery) or Craft (Distilling) or something.

    Which reminds me:
    Hobos get a talent to make their own alcohol out of a tin cup, two old potatoes and a sock.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2010-11-30 at 08:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I see.

    Perhaps one could weaken the effects of criticals? Instead of dealing the weapons base damage to wounds, a crit deals 1 wound, or 2, in the case of a x3 weapon.
    That sounds excellent, and should of course be in addition to any vitality damage for a hit. Maybe even more? Say, (Critical Multiplier) x (Damage Dice Rolled For Weapon)? That be 2 or 3 for most weapons, as high as 4 or 6 for guns and such. Or just give each weapon a Wound Value for critical hits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Or just give each weapon a Wound Value for critical hits.
    I think this would be the better option.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Which reminds me:
    Hobos get a talent to make their own alcohol out of a tin cup, two old potatoes and a sock.
    Moonshine on you crazy diamond... (Su)
    Basic: A hobo can create moonshine so long as he has something to keep it in (tin cup, tin can, glass, cupped hands etc), a piece of an edible* plant, clean-ish water, his own spit and an item of his own used and never been washed clothing. The process takes a number of nights equal to 8 minus his hobo level, to a minimum of 1 and requires a craft (distilation) check of DC 15, or DC 25 for "good stuff". This creates ~8 shots of moonshine.
    *Edible - an old hobo term for anything not immediately toxic or poisonous.

    Intermediate: The hobo can ignore the penalties of drinking moonshine to a maximum of his level-1, or half his hobo level, which ever is higher. The hobo can substitute anything identifiably organic and solid (leather, paper, beef, leaves) for the edible plant material when making moonshine. If the hobo does have edible plant material, then the DC to make "good stuff" is reduced to 20.

    Master: The hobo "just happens to have" a nearly empty glass bottle of standard moonshine on him at all times, even if he has no other equipment on him. If he is searched, this moonshine cannot be found by any means, however retrieving it is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. The bottle contains 2 shots of moonshine. The hobo can use this ability 1/day.

    Edit: Edited booze rules to limit stacking bonuses.

    Edit edit: Improved Basic and Intermediate

    Magic Item: Bindle of holding
    Works in cities, the range and the wild
    This is a red-and-white checkered hankerchief attached to a wooden stick. The bindle weighs ~25lbs at all times, however it can hold 250lbs of equipment of any shape and size. Untying the bindle causes its contents to spill out, however it can all be put back by placing a pile of the items on the hankerchief and then tying the hankerchief to the stick. Carrying the bindle requires a free hand and a shoulder to rest it on.

    Each hankerchief and stick will only work with the parts they were created with. If they are ever swapped they become a simple stick and hankerchief until they are brought back together again.
    Last edited by cheezewizz2000; 2010-11-30 at 10:15 AM.
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  22. - Top - End - #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheezewizz2000 View Post
    ...awesome...so long as he has something to keep it in (tin cup, tin can, glass, cupped hands etc), a piece of fruit or a vegitable, clean-ish water, his own spit and an item of his own used and never been washed clothing...awesome...
    Awesome.

    Considering real-world alcohol is often made from grain, which is neither fruit nor vegetable, this description should be expanded. Also at the intermediate level you should be able to ignore that requirement entirely - the true hobo can make moonshine out of recycled paper and shoe leather.
    Last edited by gkathellar; 2010-11-30 at 10:06 AM. Reason: More awesome and spellcheck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Awesome.

    Considering real-world alcohol is often made from grain, which is neither fruit nor vegetable, this description should be expanded. Also at the intermediate level you should be able to ignore that requirement entirely - the true hobo can make moonshine out of recycled paper and shoe leather.
    Alright, I agree, but I'm keeping the improved ability to ignore the penalties from drinking moonshine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Awesome.

    Considering real-world alcohol is often made from grain, which is neither fruit nor vegetable, this description should be expanded. Also at the intermediate level you should be able to ignore that requirement entirely - the true hobo can make moonshine out of recycled paper and shoe leather.
    Just say "organic matter", then.

    (Oh, and grain is totally a fruit. It's the seed of a grass.)

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    Soylent Absinthe is people!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Just say "organic matter", then.

    (Oh, and grain is totally a fruit. It's the seed of a grass.)
    Wording changed to "Edible plant material" and "anything identifiably organic and solid" for Basic and Intermediate, respectively.
    Last edited by cheezewizz2000; 2010-11-30 at 10:47 AM.
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    "Identifiably"?
    "Tcha, ah reckon 'tis awganic 'nuff."
    Last edited by Eldan; 2010-11-30 at 10:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    "Identifiably"?
    "Tcha, ah reckon 'tis awganic 'nuff."
    That is EXACTLY the attitude I want! Bits of charcoal! The scum from the tide-line around the bath! Road kill! Soil, based on the argument that it's leaves that have passed through a worm! All of this can make a frighteningly deliceous beverage that makes you feel stronger, disinfects wounds, and lubricates rusted parts!
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    "Where did you find organic material while locked up in a featureless stone cell?"
    "Ya don't wanna know."

    I'd change master level from "Hobo has booze on him at all times" to "Hobo can make booze in a minute as long as he has an empty container. No matter the raw materials."


    Should we start a separate thread for collecting rules material?
    Last edited by Eldan; 2010-11-30 at 11:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    "Where did you find organic material while locked up in a featureless stone cell?"
    "Ya don't wanna know."

    I'd change master level from "Hobo has booze on him at all times" to "Hobo can make booze in a minute as long as he has an empty container. No matter the raw materials."


    Should we start a separate thread for collecting rules material?
    Well, my aim with master was for that situation when a hobo has been caught by the administration, locked in a cell and is awaiting death row, when: Wait? What's this? Moonshine! And there's enough for a +1 bonus on all Chutzpah checks! Maybe now I can bust out of these cuffs...
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