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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    It should be multiplied on a crit since it is not bonus dice of damage it is a static mod like weapon specialization and the like. Unless there is a rule I am missing you normally multiply bonus damage unless it is bonus dice like sneak attack. Not that you can count on it happening. Nightmare blade has its uses as well. It is nice to have several standard action attacks so you can stay on the move and not have to refresh so often since you want to refresh on a round where you can get a full round attack. What is the crit on that like X7 with a x2 crit weapon?
    ToB page 43. You do not multiply extra damage from a maneuver on a crit. This would apply to SoPC as well, even though the damage boost is a flat number.

    For diamond nightmare blade, on a crit with a x2 weapon, it would be x5 damage (x4 from strike, x2 of base damage from crit).

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    That would work for me still. It has been a LONG time since I looked up the crit multiplication rules. I just know that x4 on top of a x2 would not be x8.
    x4 on top of x2 would be x5. You treat each multiplier as an addition, so x2 is +100%, and x4 is +300%, so you get +400%, or x5

    Gah, Ninjaed
    Last edited by AyeGill; 2010-12-18 at 05:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    ToB page 43. You do not multiply extra damage from a maneuver on a crit. This would apply to SoPC as well, even though the damage boost is a flat number.

    For diamond nightmare blade, on a crit with a x2 weapon, it would be x5 damage (x4 from strike, x2 of base damage from crit).
    Accursed text! It seems every time I read ToB I find out a new rule. Thanks for pointing that out.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    I got to say this is great and good job on making a handbook about the warblade, pure awesomeness . I myself love the tome of battle book because of all the mystic powers that melee characters can accomplish. My favorite character I made was a human warblade, and old fashion spiked chain and greatsword. So keep up the good work!

    Also i was reading other comments and notice about the WRT part and it does may sense about it being only used on allies, because the discipline emphasizes teamwork and making your group even more deadly each round. However, of course through the rules you could imply allies mean also yourself, but that just makes the maneuver too great . I guess it depends on the Dm and the players lol.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Also worth noting that time stands still and feral deathstrike are both full-round actions, which can make them unwieldy to initiate, making quicksilver motion even more invaluable.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    Also worth noting that time stands still and feral deathstrike are both full-round actions, which can make them unwieldy to initiate, making quicksilver motion even more invaluable.
    Exactly why I think they are awesome but should not be your only choices as fullround actions can be very limiting to your character.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    Also worth noting that time stands still and feral deathstrike are both full-round actions, which can make them unwieldy to initiate, making quicksilver motion even more invaluable.
    Although a dip into Cleric for Travel Devotion to get an extra move action to initiate a full-round maneuver is very worthwhile indeed.
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  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Hooray for multi-quote ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Here's a really cheesy way to use this:

    It never explicitly prohibits the attacker as 'another target', just that it is a target other than yourself. And your attacker is generally going to be adjacent to you. So you can literally cause him to be hit by his own attack. Have a nice day.
    Except, um, that's what Fool's Strike is for. Comparison between the maneuvers' description should be enough to establish that Manticore Parry was not meant to work this way.

    Fool's Strike is, incidentally, possibly my favorite maneuver of all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    I am more concerned about manticore parry requiring opposed attack rolls. Any melee attacker worth his salt will likely have the advantage in this aspect, so it seems to have a fairly low chance of success.
    Not if they're Power Attacking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    Since we started playing 4e in addition to 3.5 my DM always tells when an enemy is bloodied (at half HP for the one who don't know).... just figure you may ask you DM to do the same (I know it is a houserule or most likely a mannerism taken after playing 4e regularly)
    Yeah, the Bloodied status condition in 4e makes this a whole different ball game. Most DMs I've played with would not inform players when the monsters hit 1/2-HP in 3e.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Yanno, I only really hear about two weapons which Warblades ever really use. Well, maybe three.
    Shame. I'm quite fond of my Quarterstaff Warblade. I also hear sometimes about Warblade being a good way to fix sword-and-board, so that should argue for some longswords or light flails or something. And, as someone else mentioned, Falchion is very competitive with Greatsword in certain builds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Are you sure Dancing Mongoose requires full attack? I don't see that in the description, and indeed read it as getting the attacks as a swift action, regardless of what else you'll do.
    Oooooooh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfin View Post
    So should Manticore Parry be demoted to blue or black?
    Black IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by faceroll View Post
    Especially because the some of the most heinous stuff you'd want to get rid of, you can't, because you can't spend an action to do it. Great way to get rid of ability drain and negative levels, though.
    I think you were mixing up Iron Heart Focus and Iron Heart Surge (which has been discussed earlier).
    Last edited by Draz74; 2010-12-18 at 07:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Comments on Level 8-9 Maneuvers:

    Diamond Defense is actually pretty burly. Adding your level to a save isn't quite as good as replacing it with a maxxed Concentration check, mostly due to the potential of natural-1-autofail. But the thing is -- if you want to guard all your saves with Concentration checks, you'll be keeping 3 Counters Readied. Which no Warblade in their right mind has space for. With Diamond Defense, you can protect Fortitude, Reflex, and Will for just one Readied Maneuver. Sexy.

    Adamantine Hurricane ... hmmm, too situational for my taste, but I can't deny it's potentially awesome. I'd make it blue, but I could easily be persuaded otherwise.

    I can't stand Lightning Throw fluff-wise, but optimization-wise, it's the main way to make a Warblade have some ranged power. And it single-handedly does a LOT.

    I'm guessing Earthstrike Quake is indeed a typo, but I'm glad they did it. Much more distinctive this way!

    White Raven Hammer is simply incredible. It should be promoted to cyan. People take mediocre White Raven maneuvers at lower levels just so they can qualify for this.

    Mountain Tombstone Strike and Strike of Perfect Clarity both take a standard action attack, and add a LOT of bonus damage to it. They're similar enough that I think taking both is silly. Therefore, you shouldn't necessarily take MTS just because it has no prereqs.

    (Which of the two is better, assuming you have the prereqs for SoPC? Depends how many of your opponents are immune to ability damage, how many of your opponents have at least 29 Hit Dice, and how much your party members will appreciate debuffed Fortitude saves. Oh yeah, and that old obnoxious "on the ground" limitation of Stone Dragon.)

    Feral Death Blow is totally inferior to Strike of Perfect Clarity. The instant-death possibility is negligible in most cases. Targeting flat-footed AC is probably more than made up for by requiring a full-round action. The Jump check could fail if you haven't optimized it enough, the +20d6 damage is significantly less on average than +100, and worst of all, it doesn't affect crit-immune creatures (and Fortification is pretty affordable at this level). Yuck, this is actually pretty terrible for a Level 9 maneuver. I could see it remaining blue, but no better.

    War Master's Charge should absolutely be gold. Holy crap, have you read that thing?
    Last edited by Draz74; 2010-12-18 at 07:35 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Seriously, White Raven Hammer should be upgraded to Cyan, or even gold. It's a BBEG-killer, no doubt about it. Almost nothing is immune to stunning, and no save. If the BBEG survives to have his next action, the whole party has done something wrong, or something has gone horridly wrong and the Wizard has teleported the group out to examine why it didn't go down.

    For any 'tank' build which closes and attacks with the BBEG, this is a must-have maneuver.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-12-18 at 07:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    War Master's Charge should absolutely be gold. Holy crap, have you read that thing?
    It would be gold if the party is optimised around it, or if you give it to a warblade npc surrounded by mooks built for charging.

    Otherwise, how many PCs in a typical party would benefit? You don't really want to see the party rogue or wizard charging into battle there. Summons would be good, but most of the time, it will probably just be yourself and the barb.

    I suppose if you have leadership and 100+ followers tagging along...

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Strike of Perfect clarity also is a save and die (as are many strikes at high levels) since it will deal a lot more than 50 damage. While the save is only 15 there is always a 5% chance at instant death and the save for feral death blow may not be much better so it is probably only 10-15% chance on many cratures you want to attack. Also massive damage is less resisted than death effects and crit immune since many (all) creatures that are immune to massive damage are immune to those other attacks already.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    It would be gold if the party is optimised around it, or if you give it to a warblade npc surrounded by mooks built for charging.

    Otherwise, how many PCs in a typical party would benefit? You don't really want to see the party rogue or wizard charging into battle there. Summons would be good, but most of the time, it will probably just be yourself and the barb.

    I suppose if you have leadership and 100+ followers tagging along...
    Even if it's just you and one ally charging, assuming you both hit, you're still (1) doing almost as much damage as a Strike of Perfect Clarity, (2) allowing an ally to move twice his speed as an immediate action ignoring attacks of opportunity, (3) putting a no-save Stun on the nastiest opponent for one round. It's better than Strike of Perfect Clarity + White Raven Hammer.

    And that's if you're not abusing Pounce shenanigans.

    Why wouldn't you want the Rogue charging into the battle? He's going to be in there sooner or later; why not make his entrance have an impact?

    And it's not that hard to optimize your whole party for using this maneuver, since it breaks the action economy so badly. Hand the Sorcerer a Longspear and have him pre-buff with Mirror Image ... ok, cool, now he probably wants to participate in the charge, unless there was a swift action spell he was really set on using on his next turn.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2010-12-18 at 09:49 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    That maneuver is always amazing as long as you have one effective charge buddy. Its one problem is that as combats go on you are less likely to be able to activate with two chargers again and since you have only around 7 readied maneuvers that is significant investment of resources though likely very much worth it in most cases. It also gets screwed by things like slow because it is a full round action and unlike a normal charge you can not downgrade to a standard action. Still worth it for almost every warblade ever made.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Even if it's just you and one ally charging, assuming you both hit, you're still (1) doing almost as much damage as a Strike of Perfect Clarity, (2) allowing an ally to move twice his speed as an immediate action ignoring attacks of opportunity, (3) putting a no-save Stun on the nastiest opponent for one round. It's better than Strike of Perfect Clarity + White Raven Hammer.
    Though my concern is that this is one of those maneuvers which can undeniably be very powerful, provided you spend some effort setting up the ideal scenario first. And charging is not that hard to counter, especially at higher lvs.

    Any time the terrain hinders charging, this maneuver is useless. Or if enemy is able to counter charging. Or the enemies could be set up to make mass-charging for huge amounts of damage less than optimal.

    Granted, being melee, SoPC is subject to similar limitations if the foe is particularly mobile and able to stay out of striking range, though being an iron heart maneuver, it can be used by bloodstorm blades on ranged attacks...

    Still, it is nice...the wizard brings in multiple fatties, and they all come charging in....

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    I think SoPC best feature is that it is so easy to use that it is almost always an option. All the other 9th level strikes can be prevented or negated by ways outside of range (which is a problem for warblades in general). A standard action attack that is a lot of straight damage with no problems with immunities or being on the ground. It is not always the best but you won't be sad you have it.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Feral Death Blow is down to blue; White Raven Hammer is cyan. Tome of Battle feats coming later today (with CWar to follow soon after).

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    Any time the terrain hinders charging, this maneuver is useless. Or if enemy is able to counter charging. Or the enemies could be set up to make mass-charging for huge amounts of damage less than optimal.
    The terrain issue shouldn't be that bad at that level, as if you don't have a stable form of flight that you can use on at least an encounter level, there's something wrong. Yeah, you may have to worry about walls but the other 2 issues are a bigger issue.

    As for feats, I look forward to PHB2 getting into the mix, as I think there's quite a couple of nice feats in there for the Warblade to take advantage of. Though I do note that Stances haven't been dealt with since 1st level, which would be nice to see dealt with shortly.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2010-12-19 at 12:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Don't worry, I'll keep stances in the mix. Shneekey, I assume it's alright if I use your piece on the 3rd-level ones?
    Oh, by the way, ToB feats are up.
    Last edited by Elfin; 2010-12-19 at 03:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfin View Post
    Oh, by the way, ToB feats are up.
    I don't see Stone Power or any of the other prereqs for Tactical feats, besides White Raven's.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    They're under he Bonus Feats heading. Shall I just integrate the bonus feats into Player's Handbook/Tome of Battle?
    Oh, and I did intentionally leave out feats unconnected to the warblade; and if anyone would like to weigh in on the two psionic feats, I have little experience with psionics.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfin View Post
    Don't worry, I'll keep stances in the mix. Shneekey, I assume it's alright if I use your piece on the 3rd-level ones?
    Oh, by the way, ToB feats are up.
    Re: Martial Study, you can't trade away the maneuvers you gain through feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToB, Martial Study
    A maneuver learned through this feat cannot be
    exchanged for a different maneuver if you are a crusader,
    swordsage, or warblade (see the class descriptions in Chapter
    1 for details on swapping out maneuvers as you gain levels).
    Once you choose a maneuver with this feat, you cannot
    change it.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfin View Post
    They're under he Bonus Feats heading. Shall I just integrate the bonus feats into Player's Handbook/Tome of Battle?
    What threw me off was that White Raven Defense is in both areas and that I forgot that you'd covered them in Bonus feats.

    As for integrating, yeah, I'm for opening up less tabs. Knowing which bonus feats are worthwhile is...well, worthwhile;, at the same time, if I'm building a Warblade with this Handbook, I'll probably have ToB open so I can see what the bonus feat list is and refer to the book they're in to make my decision.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2010-12-23 at 04:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    Re: Martial Study, you can't trade away the maneuvers you gain through feats.
    ...Oops.

    And I'll integrate, then.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    So....the stances will be up later right?

    Can't wait, the stances really help a martial adept in battle, but then again some stances aren't beneficial at all lol. Good job on the feats .

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfin View Post
    Don't worry, I'll keep stances in the mix. Shneekey, I assume it's alright if I use your piece on the 3rd-level ones?
    Oh, by the way, ToB feats are up.
    By all means, although you may wish to also post some of the differing views others have, so as to create a more complete picture.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Complete Warrior feats are up, with the exception of the Weapon Style ones. I'll get to those later - though if anyone wants to do them, I'd be very grateful.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    ToB page 43. You do not multiply extra damage from a maneuver on a crit. This would apply to SoPC as well, even though the damage boost is a flat number.
    Huh. Never noticed that before. However, the sentence just after that one says, "You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."

    My understanding was dice (such as Sneak Attack) don't get multiplied, but a flat bonus (such as Craven) does. Wouldn't SoPC be treated the same as Craven?

    So, is the "do not multiply" a new rule just for strikes, or are they trying to clarify the normal critical rules, and just did a bad job of it?

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Just as some advice, on the Wizards boards many handbooks in 4e do not put in stuff that at least does not warrant a black or purple rating in general. This is so you do not have to clog up a handbook with a bunch of bad stuff that you say "do not take this". Just looking at the complete warrior stuff you would not need a bunch of those red choices. This also has the benefit of making less work for you. You would just need to make a statement of "If you do not see it here I did not find it worthwhile even in a niche sense though you can try to convince me otherwise". It also makes the guide easier to read.

    You are doing a very good job and I especially like that you do take outside opinions. Keep it up!

    EDIT: You may want to keep trap choices in the guide listed red since trap choices need to be posted like blade meditation. You should also leave a section for cherry picking the best maneuvers from other disciplines if you took martial study or the stance feat.
    Last edited by MeeposFire; 2010-12-21 at 04:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Iron Heart Endurance and Vital Recovery are pretty good choices for Undead and Warforged Warblades who want to be more self-reliant with healing.

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