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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post
    @^: Planar Handbook.
    Makes sense, mechanus is a plane.


    This is for the combat style section.

    Two-weapon fighting: this style is good, dealing lots of damage, but far more feat intensive than THFing. However, for tiger claw users, it's practically a must.

    EDIT: never mind the tiger claw thing.
    Last edited by Hiro Protagonest; 2011-02-04 at 06:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Actually, I'd argue that it's just as good for THFers as TWFers. Only a few maneuvers are focused on TWFing, and the bonuses from most are just as applicable and beneficial.

  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfin View Post
    Actually, I'd argue that it's just as good for THFers as TWFers. Only a few maneuvers are focused on TWFing, and the bonuses from most are just as applicable and beneficial.
    Yeah, I guess, just keep it at blue then.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfin View Post
    Actually, I'd argue that it's just as good for THFers as TWFers. Only a few maneuvers are focused on TWFing, and the bonuses from most are just as applicable and beneficial.
    I concur. Most of the Tiger Claw maneuvers benefit more from two-handers, since you'll only be making one attack (but often with bonus to hit or other riders).
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  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    I concur. Most of the Tiger Claw maneuvers benefit more from two-handers, since you'll only be making one attack (but often with bonus to hit or other riders).
    Yeah, the only things mainly for TWFers is blood in the water and girallon windmill flesh rip.
    Last edited by Hiro Protagonest; 2011-02-05 at 08:52 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    I concur. Most of the Tiger Claw manoeuvres benefit more from two-handers, since you'll only be making one attack (but often with bonus to hit or other riders).
    THF benefit more from: Two 2nd level manoeuvres, two 3rd level manoeuvres, one 4th level manoeuvres, two 6th level manoeuvres, two 7th level manoeuvres and the 9th level manoeuvres.

    TWF benefit more from: one 1st level manoeuvres, one 1st level stance, one 7th level manoeuvre, one 7th level stance.

    Yep, THF is probably better off.
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  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    Yeah, the only things mainly for TWFers is blood in the water and girallon flesh ripper.
    And Wolf Fang Strike, Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose. Pouncing Strike and Sudden Leap are great for both TWF and THF.

    That's enough to be perfectly serviceable in most games, but not quite enough to make it a must have. Swordsages have other nifty boosts for TWF, and are IMO better suited for it.

    [Edit]: Double weapons should be mentioned. The ability to use them for TWF or THF on demand is very nice for a Tiger Claw specialist.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2011-02-03 at 07:34 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #428
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    THF benefit more from: Two 2nd level manoeuvres, two 3rd level manoeuvres, one 4th level manoeuvres, two 6th level manoeuvres, two 7th level manoeuvres and the 9th level manoeuvres.

    TWF benefit more from: one 1st level manoeuvres, one 1st level stance, one 7th level manoeuvre, one 7th level stance.

    Yep, THF is probably better off.
    I was figuring THF would be cyan in the combat style section. I'm also sorta biased towards TWFing, cause nothing inspires me to pick up a sword like Drizzt Do'urden or Artemis Entreri.
    Last edited by Hiro Protagonest; 2011-02-03 at 07:38 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    I was figuring THF would be cyan in the combat style section.
    It will be gold. It is the strongest melee style in 3.5, after all.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    And Wolf Fang Strike, Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose.
    And wolf pack tactics.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    And wolf pack tactics.
    Right you are. It's not quite useful enough when compared to the competition, sadly, but it does benefit TWF more.

    Speaking of TWF, I think Valenar elves should definitely be mentioned. Racial proficiency in double scimitar can combine the best sides of Blood in the Water crit-fishing and THF, and the inimitable Revenant Blade is both a natural lead-in to Eternal Blade, and perhaps the strongest option for TWF.
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  12. - Top - End - #432
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    I guess TWFing isn't as good as I thought. But he placed shield bashing as blue, so it should still be blue. Valenar double scimitar is awesome for TWFing crit-fishers.
    Last edited by Hiro Protagonest; 2011-02-03 at 07:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    I guess TWFing isn't as good as I thought.
    It's a bit feat-starved, lacks reach, suffers from MAD (without dex to damage tricks) and lack of damage (compared to THF chargers) without extra sources of damage. There are ways to make it work, though, and the lower your groups optimization rate, the easier it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    But he placed shield bashing as blue, so it should still be blue.
    I agree in that normal TWF is roughly equal to sword'n'board TWF and shield bashing in general.
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  14. - Top - End - #434
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Actually, I just figured out the main difference between the two, shield bashing is basically trading away 2 points of damage and an extra damage roll(cause of crit multipliers and threat range) for one or two points of AC. That makes it worse at lower levels, but the damage penalty ages quickly, by 5th level it's practically nothing, and by 10th it's history. However, there's still the extra damage roll for the better crits multipliers and threat ranges weapons have.

    Elfin, I think you misread oversized two weapon fighting, cause it's nothing like monkey grip, what it does is allows you to wield a one-handed weapon in your off hand with the penalties for a light weapon. It's very good for crit fishers, because scimitars deal more damage than kukris. Of course, it's one point more damage, while weapon specialization is two... never mind.

    These are for the sword rack: spiked chain- excellent for battlefield control, it allows you to trip and get attacks of opportunity from 10 feet away, and a solid choice even if you don't do control, with reach and the ability to attack adjacent foes.

    Greatsword- a great choice, with just a bit more damage than the greataxe, and no faults.

    Falchion- a decent choice, this is excellent with the keen property and the battle ardor class feature.
    Last edited by Hiro Protagonest; 2011-02-05 at 11:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    It is actually very much like Monkey Grip in that it gives you a miniscule damage return for the feat investment. If you 100% have to make a chaotic good dark elf ranger who wields two scimitars...sure, take the feat. If you're trying to do any sort of practical optimization, it probably isn't worth your time/feat investment etc unless you find a way to get it for free.

    For a warblade, the difference amounts to:

    "Do I spend a feat on Exotic Weapon Prof. and wield two kukris, or do I take Oversize 2xWpn and wield two scimitars"

    The latter is a terrible choice because:
    1) Weapon Aptitude means the Warblade can use any weapon ever made with the exotic weapon prof. feat, oversized gives him nothing.
    2) The damage increase from Oversized is trivial even compared with weapon specialization.
    3) It robs the warblade of his ability to use the kukris in a grapple (if it comes to that, the scimitars are strictly worse)


    Evidently Kukri's are still martial weapons

    This actually makes the comparison worse, it isn't a choice between mandatory feats, it is just "do we choose a feat that can optimisitcally give you +6 extra damage on a full attack". Elfin is right, I don't think that it is worth a feat slot.
    Last edited by Essence_of_War; 2011-02-04 at 03:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Essence_of_War View Post
    It is actually very much like Monkey Grip in that it gives you a miniscule damage return for the feat investment. If you 100% have to make a chaotic good dark elf ranger who wields two scimitars...sure, take the feat. If you're trying to do any sort of practical optimization, it probably isn't worth your time/feat investment etc unless you find a way to get it for free.

    For a warblade, the difference amounts to:

    "Do I spend a feat on Exotic Weapon Prof. and wield two kukris, or do I take Oversize 2xWpn and wield two scimitars"

    The latter is a terrible choice because:
    1) Weapon Aptitude means the Warblade can use any weapon ever made with the exotic weapon prof. feat, oversized gives him nothing.
    2) The damage increase from Oversized is trivial even compared with weapon specialization.
    3) It robs the warblade of his ability to use the kukris in a grapple (if it comes to that, the scimitars are strictly worse)
    True, but it does allow the warblade to power attack with their offhand attacks.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Fair enough I suppose, but if you're doing two-weapon fighting, I think you're going to be too feat starved to do the usual nonsense with Power Attack, like shock trooper shenanigans, rather than get in alternative sources of damage like 2Wpn Rend. Moreover, by 2Wpn fighting, you're missing out on what makes power attack so tasty to begin with, the bonus damage from wielding a 2hander!

    Edit:
    Elfin, this discussion raises a good point actually, somethings you could put in the "fighting style section" are "feat lines" or groups of good feats that people should try to fill out for optimal synergy.

    For 2Handers:
    Charging: Power Attack -> Imp. Bull Rush -> Shock Trooper -> Leap Attack

    People with a Reach Weapon:
    As 2Handers+:
    AoO: Combat Reflexes or Evasive Reflexes or BOTH
    Lockdown: Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip (get reflexes first?) -> Knockdown
    Push Away: If you have the charging line, add Knockback -> Combat Brute

    People Using Two Weapons:

    2Wpn Line:2xWpn->Imp 2xWpn->2Wpn Rend -> Grt. 2Wpn

    Do you think something like this, to help guide people to the most effective use of feats would be helpful?
    Last edited by Essence_of_War; 2011-02-04 at 02:30 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #438
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Essence_of_War View Post
    "Do I spend a feat on Exotic Weapon Prof. and wield two kukris, or do I take Oversize 2xWpn and wield two scimitars"
    kukris are martial weapons in 3.5

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Elfin, I think armor specialization is better than that, cause DR 2/- is the same as weapon specialization, only defensive. Of course, it doesn't affect spell damage...

  20. - Top - End - #440
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    If you really want a 3rd level stance, then you need to multiclass two levels before you reach warblade 4. Otherwise, you are stuck with two 1st level stances until level 10 unless you spend a feat. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but this may bother some people, like me. They screwed up the stance progression for all three classes. Alternatively, ask for a house rule to allow the changing of a stance known at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.

    A good option is to multiclass fighter for the two levels. You get proficiency in heavy armor and bows. BAB continues to increase linearly. You get a nice bump in fortitude and Moment of Perfect Mind handles the will hit. The big deal is two bonus feats to play around with. You can still take Weapon Specialization if you want it at level 6 as a Fighter 2/Warblade 4 just as you would as Warblade 6.

    The cost is 2 average less hit points, a slight delayed gratification on gaining maneuvers but you still get 9th level maneuvers before level 20, and no Stance Mastery before Epic. Still, most campaigns end before level 20 anyway, and even if you do play to level 20 and beyond, the time spent less than 20th level is a lot longer than 20th level and above so you get a lot of mileage.

    Alternatively, multiclass Crusader or Swordsage. Crusader gives you the armor, bows, Devoted Spirit if you want, and extra Stone Dragon/White Raven slots to help qualify for higher level maneuvers without using up Warblade slots. Plus, it becomes worth it to spend a feat for Thicket of Blades if you really want it. Swordsage gives you a lot of maneuvers, helping a lot in Stone Dragon, Diamond Mind, and Tiger Claw slots for higher level prerequisites. If you don't need to make a will save that often you can pick up Moment of Perfect Mind here to have more direct actions available in your Warblade slots. If you're going to take Adaptive Style feat anyway, Swordsage couldn't hurt.

  21. - Top - End - #441
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by navar100 View Post
    If you really want a 3rd level stance, then you need to multiclass two levels before you reach warblade 4. Otherwise, you are stuck with two 1st level stances until level 10 unless you spend a feat.
    I noticed that too, I'm suggesting that, as a house rule(and I think most DMs will let you do this), you get your second stance at 5th level, rather than 4th.

    Speaking of stances, I think Elfin should make wolverine stance black or something for small sized warblades.
    Last edited by Hiro Protagonest; 2011-02-04 at 04:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Elfin, I think armor specialization is better than that, cause DR 2/- is the same as weapon specialization, only defensive. Of course, it doesn't affect spell damage...
    I think that weapon specialization only gets a good mark here because it can lead into melee weapon mastery which can be very good. DR 2/- does not cut it for an efficient feat slot.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Essence_of_War View Post
    I think that weapon specialization only gets a good mark here because it can lead into melee weapon mastery which can be very good. DR 2/- does not cut it for an efficient feat slot.
    Weapon Spec is good like Endurance is good: it leads to better things.
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  24. - Top - End - #444
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Some more stuff for the sword rack.


    Greataxe: very good, it's 30 gp less than the greatsword, and 55 gp less than the falchion.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    I noticed that too, I'm suggesting that, as a house rule(and I think most DMs will let you do this), you get your second stance at 5th level, rather than 4th.
    I actually recommend that for warblades, their 2nd stance be allocated at 6th lv, rather than 5. Reason being that their stances all seem to be granted at even-number lvs (akin to how a sorc learns a new level of spells every even level), so I prefer to maintain this pattern.

    So for them, I would houserule the acquisition of a new maneuver readied to 3 at 1st lv, +1 every 5 lvs (so 5, 10, 15, 20), and learning a new stance at lv1, 6, 10 and 16.

    For instance if we are using a lot of strikes at full BAB does the few point of to hit outweigh what we could have from another ability score namely CON?
    Call me paranoid, but a to-hit bonus is never wasted if I can still miss my foe on a roll of 2. Since you only 1 massive attack each round, you will want to ensure it hits at all costs.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Sure I can see why you might be like that and for you that extra to hit is great. For others having 80-100 extra HP is worth a lot. I was just remarking that str should be a light blue (very good) rather than gold (mandatory nothing better).

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Sure I can see why you might be like that and for you that extra to hit is great.
    Extra hit, extra damage, extra DCs for most maneuvers that allow them. Not all maneuvers are single-hit ones, when it comes to that. Indeed, some of the most damaging strikes are stuff like Time Stands Still, where you get to make several attacks.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Sure I can see why you might be like that and for you that extra to hit is great. For others having 80-100 extra HP is worth a lot. I was just remarking that str should be a light blue (very good) rather than gold (mandatory nothing better).
    I don't see how you can get that much extra hp. You are probably looking at an extra +2 to +4 con max, or +20-40 hp over the course of 20 lvs, unless you are also thinking of buying a tome of con and boosting it every 4 levels.

    Bearing in mind that stats become progressively more expensive to buy (in my games at least), raising con from 14 to 16 requires 4 stat points, while raising from 16 to 18 requires 6. That's 10 stat points which could be allocated to str, dex and/or int.

    Con is a good secondary stat, IMO, but not one I will pump at the 1st instance.

    When I first played a warblade, the DM used 28 point buy, and my stats were str/dex/con/int 14, wis/cha10, with subsequent stat boosts in str. I don't think I would have been able to get con any higher without compromising my other stats.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Devil's advocate: Why is Vital Recovery red while Improved Toughness gets black? True Vital Recovery is reactive but as a primary frontliner in most campaigns, you only need to Vital Surge once a day to have it provide more HP than Improved Toughness (assuming you are pure, or mostly pure, Warblade obviously). If you have a standard four encounters it's a ton of bonus healing which saves your cleric or druid resources. Also, it is always at least equal to Crusader strike and quickly gets better (1d6+1 averages to 4; Vital Recovery heals 4), especially because instead of chewing up a maneuver readied it provides healing when you refresh your other, better maneuvers.

    I'm not arguing that Vital Recovery is particularly great or anything; a non-human Warblade probably has better ways to spend their 7 feats. I just don't think it's unplayably awful for someone looking to mooch a bit of extra survivability out of their build (at least Purple, maybe Black). Then again, I haven't played Warblades at really high levels so maybe at 10+ you just never need to recover maneuvers anymore?
    Last edited by Hawk7915; 2011-02-04 at 07:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

    I'd like to add the Eneko (Eberron: Secrets of Sarlona) under the LA +1 races.
    +2 to Str and Con, -2 to Dex and Cha.
    Giant Type, Medium Size, Powerful Build, and Longbow proficiency as a bonus feat. They also have spell-like abilities and racial resistance to poison. It's like Half-Giant, but better.


    Eberron Red Hand of Doom Campaign Journal. NOW COMPLETE!
    Sakuya Izayoi avatar by Mr. Saturn. Caella sig by Neoseph.

    "I dunno, you just gave me the image of a nerd flying slow motion over a coffee table towards another nerd, dual wielding massive books. It was awesome." -- Marriclay

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