Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

[Elfin]

Quite.

[Chen]

Manticore parry is pretty bad. By RAW you have to target another creature with it (not an empty square) but the bigger issue is the fact it only works on manufactured weapons. There are too many monsters that just use their natural weapons, making this a pretty subpar maneuver to have readied. Wall of blades is preferable since it can deflect both touch attacks and natural weapons.

[Augmented Lurk]

Scything Blade is pretty terrible. It's strictly inferior to dancing mongoose in every way possible, and not worthy of being a seventh level maneuver. Also I think Finishing Move is a bit overrated. Doing an additional 14d6 damage is pretty useless when the opponent is almost dead anyway.

[Obscurejones]

Just found this thread while looking for Warblade advice. Liking it. Keep up the good work.

[Tael]

Manticore parry is pretty bad. By RAW you have to target another creature with it (not an empty square) but the bigger issue is the fact it only works on manufactured weapons. There are too many monsters that just use their natural weapons, making this a pretty subpar maneuver to have readied. Wall of blades is preferable since it can deflect both touch attacks and natural weapons.

Where are you getting this from?

When you initiate this maneuver, you
can attempt to block an enemy’s melee
attack that targets you and redirect it to
another target adjacent to you.

Any melee attack, and the only qualifier for re-direction is "another target".

[Draz74]

Oh, I'm also surprised to see Iron Heart Focus = cyan. It never really stood out to me as being a great maneuver. Handy, of course, but when it's competing with so many other cool moves for the Warblade's sparse Readied selection ...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Any melee attack, and the only qualifier for re-direction is "another target".

Here's a really cheesy way to use this:

It never explicitly prohibits the attacker as 'another target', just that it is a target other than yourself. And your attacker is generally going to be adjacent to you. So you can literally cause him to be hit by his own attack. Have a nice day.

[FelixG]

Where are you getting this from?

Sadly he is right about the things it can be used against

At the bottom of the entry it says:

This maneuver functions only against
armed melee attacks. You cannot use it
against unarmed attacks, natural weapons,
or touch spells.

He is wrong about the definition of another target though

Here's a really cheesy way to use this:

It never explicitly prohibits the attacker as 'another target', just that it is a target other than yourself. And your attacker is generally going to be adjacent to you. So you can literally cause him to be hit by his own attack. Have a nice day.

This 0.o is awesome

[Runestar]

I am more concerned about manticore parry requiring opposed attack rolls. Any melee attacker worth his salt will likely have the advantage in this aspect, so it seems to have a fairly low chance of success.

I use wall of blades primarily to boost my touch AC, so the warblade would haev a fairly high chance of success.

Scything Blade is pretty terrible. It's strictly inferior to dancing mongoose in every way possible, and not worthy of being a seventh level maneuver.

I agree that scything blade's benefit seems quite weak for its level. However, unlike dancing mongoose, it can be combined with a strike maneuver, and you don't need to make a full attack. So if you want an extra attack in tandem with diamond blade nightmare or strike of perfect clarity, you have to burn a slot for this or do without.

Also I think Finishing Move is a bit overrated. Doing an additional 14d6 damage is pretty useless when the opponent is almost dead anyway.

An opponent at half life can still have a healthy chunk of hp (eg: dragons or the tarrasque). I just wish there were a more reliable way of ascertaining when an enemy fell below 1/2 life.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I am more concerned about manticore parry requiring opposed attack rolls. Any melee attacker worth his salt will likely have the advantage in this aspect, so it seems to have a fairly low chance of success.

I use wall of blades primarily to boost my touch AC, so the warblade would haev a fairly high chance of success.



I agree that scything blade's benefit seems quite weak for its level. However, unlike dancing mongoose, it can be combined with a strike maneuver, and you don't need to make a full attack. So if you want an extra attack in tandem with diamond blade nightmare or strike of perfect clarity, you have to burn a slot for this or do without.



An opponent at half life can still have a healthy chunk of hp (eg: dragons or the tarrasque). I just wish there were a more reliable way of ascertaining when an enemy fell below 1/2 life.

Since we started playing 4e in addition to 3.5 my DM always tells when an enemy is bloodied (at half HP for the one who don't know).... just figure you may ask you DM to do the same (I know it is a houserule or most likely a mannerism taken after playing 4e regularly)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yanno, I only really hear about two weapons which Warblades ever really use. Well, maybe three.

1) Kukri. For the crit-fishers out there.

2) Greatsword. Highest damage you can get out of a weapon without needing EWP

3) Spiked Chain. Because it's just that damn awesome. Reach + close + trip = AoO battlefield control!

Maybe someone out there likes to go with Dervish and paired scimitars, but really I think those are the only three weapon setups I've ever heard on a Warblade.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I recall a build that used the standard glaive + armor spikes combo.

[Greenish]

However, unlike dancing mongoose, it can be combined with a strike maneuver, and you don't need to make a full attack.

Are you sure Dancing Mongoose requires full attack? I don't see that in the description, and indeed read it as getting the attacks as a swift action, regardless of what else you'll do.

Yanno, I only really hear about two weapons which Warblades ever really use. Well, maybe three.
1) Kukri. For the crit-fishers out there.
2) Greatsword. Highest damage you can get out of a weapon without needing EWP
3) Spiked Chain. Because it's just that damn awesome. Reach + close + trip = AoO battlefield control!

Well, glaive or guisarme are sometimes used for their reach. I'm not sure how exactly falchion stands at comparison to greatsword, but it can't be far off.

Lance for mounted builds, of course.

[Runestar]

Maybe someone out there likes to go with Dervish and paired scimitars, but really I think those are the only three weapon setups I've ever heard on a Warblade.

No different from other melee classes. Though warblade is less forgiving than fighter in this aspect, since maneuver damage is independent of your weapon.

Are you sure Dancing Mongoose requires full attack? I don't see that in the description, and indeed read it as getting the attacks as a swift action, regardless of what else you'll do.

The way I interpret it, the extra attacks are similar to those granted by haste. You are still limited to 1 attack as an attack action, or as many attacks as you can muster on a full attack.

Or at least, that's how I convince myself as to why scything blow is 7th lv. I would be happy for someone to prove me wrong though.

[Greenish]

The way I interpret it, the extra attacks are similar to those granted by haste. You are still limited to 1 attack as an attack action, or as many attacks as you can muster on a full attack.

I don't see any language in the ability suggesting such limits.

[MeeposFire]

Yea there is no limit in the power at all. The mongoose series requires a previous attack though so you need to do a strike or full attack then use a swift action to use mongoose. I think people assume it since so many other things that add attacks normally add to only full attacks, but in this case neither maneuver makes any mention of full attacks.

[Elfin]

So should Manticore Parry be demoted to blue or black?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I would say maybe even to purple, due the extremely specific wording on it (concerning to what it applies to) I think it is highly situational. I mean it could do well in a game that is mostly populated by humanoid, weapon wielding enemies; but in "normal" play it is increasingly difficult to see those kinds of enemies at level 13 (when you first gain access to the manoeuvre)and up .

But my comment is solely based on theoretical play, I haven't played in a game that reached those levels with a martial adept (my DM loves to stop about level 10)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So should Manticore Parry be demoted to blue or black?

I dunno, turning your opponent's attack back at himself is pretty damn funny.

And, ironically, due to the wording of the monk unarmed attacks, this actually functions against monks (and thus unarmed swordsages) because their unarmed strikes count as armed attacks (and so can qualify for GMW rather than needing GMF). Yet another kick in the naughty place for monks.

If you see a lot of armed opponents? Cyan. If you don't? Black.

[Elfin]

Sounds good to me. 'Tis edited.
As an aside, expect the 8th and 9th level maneuvers in half an hour or so.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I dunno, turning your opponent's attack back at himself is pretty damn funny.

And, ironically, due to the wording of the monk unarmed attacks, this actually functions against monks (and thus unarmed swordsages) because their unarmed strikes count as armed attacks (and so can qualify for GMW rather than needing GMF). Yet another kick in the naughty place for monks.

If you see a lot of armed opponents? Cyan. If you don't? Black.

Great now I have a mental image of a warblade tapping a monk on his fist making he hit himself on the face..... all while chanting "Stop hitting your self".

Thanks Schneekey

[FelixG]

Great now I have a mental image of a warblade tapping a monk on his fist making he hit himself on the face..... all while chanting "Stop hitting your self".

Thanks Schneekey

haha thats awesome. use an unarmed attack (with improved) to do nonlethal slaps to regen your maneuvers and keep deflecting his attack back at him to make him defeat himself :P

[Elfin]

There we go. I'd very much like feedback on the 9th-level maneuvers.

[MeeposFire]

Two things

1) On strike of perfect clarity. I do not think you are wrong in color but I do think you need to mention that it is the only standard action attack in the 9th level maneuvers that does not have an immunity that will screw it over (tombstone does nothing against undead for instance). This gives it utility as being able to attack on the move is one of the biggest advantages of the warblade over the fighter (and is often overlooked by many). Think also critting with that thing ouch.

2) Time stands still. You should mention that it is two full round attacks not full round actions. This means you cannot use it with the flashing sun maneuver and the like. Many people forget this.

Lastly on the windmill flesh rip it requires two weapons but does not require you to use them. So if you can make an unarmed strike, armor spikes, a shield, or some other weapon around you can use the power. Obviously using these weapons increases your attacks and thus increases your damage but you do not have to use those weapons.

[Augmented Lurk]

However, unlike dancing mongoose, it can be combined with a strike maneuver, and you don't need to make a full attack.

There's nothing in the description for Dancing Mongoose that says it needs to be part of a full attack action.

[Runestar]

The bonus damage from strike of perfect clarity isn't multiplied on a crit.

That said, the maneuver is useful if you just want damage, plain and simple. Diamond blade nightmare possibly does much more, but is less likely to succeed (because you need to succeed on 2 checks).

[faceroll]

Oh, I'm also surprised to see Iron Heart Focus = cyan. It never really stood out to me as being a great maneuver. Handy, of course, but when it's competing with so many other cool moves for the Warblade's sparse Readied selection ...

Especially because the some of the most heinous stuff you'd want to get rid of, you can't, because you can't spend an action to do it. Great way to get rid of ability drain and negative levels, though.

And, ironically, due to the wording of the monk unarmed attacks, this actually functions against monks (and thus unarmed swordsages) because their unarmed strikes count as armed attacks (and so can qualify for GMW rather than needing GMF). Yet another kick in the naughty place for monks.

Incorrect:

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

[MeeposFire]

The bonus damage from strike of perfect clarity isn't multiplied on a crit.

That said, the maneuver is useful if you just want damage, plain and simple. Diamond blade nightmare possibly does much more, but is less likely to succeed (because you need to succeed on 2 checks).

It should be multiplied on a crit since it is not bonus dice of damage it is a static mod like weapon specialization and the like. Unless there is a rule I am missing you normally multiply bonus damage unless it is bonus dice like sneak attack. Not that you can count on it happening. Nightmare blade has its uses as well. It is nice to have several standard action attacks so you can stay on the move and not have to refresh so often since you want to refresh on a round where you can get a full round attack. What is the crit on that like X7 with a x2 crit weapon?

[Augmented Lurk]

What is the crit on that like X7 with a x2 crit weapon?

I'm pretty sure it's x5.

[MeeposFire]

That would work for me still. It has been a LONG time since I looked up the crit multiplication rules. I just know that x4 on top of a x2 would not be x8.