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    Kobold

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    Default 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Hey all, new to this forum (Though I've been around a little bit at the DnDOG forums), and I'm somewhat unfamiliar with bards. However, I have played a kobold before, but I feel like I should branch out into dangerous territory, and that territory would be a kobold bard.

    Anyways. So I need a starting character (Bard), and a guideline for what I should take at the higher levels. Dead gnome jokes are a must for his character design.
    Game Basics:

    -3.5e homebrew 'Sandbox' style.
    -Starting level 3
    -Six players
    -Play-by-post
    -Standard Wealth
    -Stats: Set Array of 18, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12
    -Alignment is flexible and there are no restrictions, but I would prefer CN or TN.
    -No multi-class penalty whatsoever.
    -Important: Most books are available, but no tome classes period (for multiclassing, though I don't think this will be an issue), and the DM has stated that he will make us work for PRCs.
    -He claims he has most books, and that chances are he has most of the feats and stuff that might be suggested here. (Read: Do whatever)

    (In world, there is racism, and the stock 'evil' races are disliked greatly. I intend to play despite this.)
    Now that the basics are out of the way, here's what I was figuring:
    Idea:
    -Kobold Bard, non-dragonwrought (Yes. People have called me crazy before)
    -End goal being Snowflake Wardance, supplemented by two-weapon fighting, weapon finesse, and other goodies that would help.

    -Stats would be Str12, Dex16 (for added to-hit), Int 15, wis 13, Con 14 (Rounding out the -2 to Con), Cha 18 (AD for Bards)
    With spells to be determined.

    TL;DR: I need help optimizing a kobold (3.5 ROTD) bard, non-dragonwrought, focusing on melee combat and a little bit of utility. I need a starting point, and a list of things to take at later levels. Assume one flaw is allowed, but do not base the build around that assumption

    Note to all:
    I do not want the next Pun-Pun. Super-mega-nacho-cheesing is discouraged. Anything you wouldn't allow as a DM, I don't think he will.
    Last edited by Lazij Scalesong; 2010-11-24 at 02:11 PM.

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    I can't remember, is there an ACF or variant that gets you the Dragonblood subtype? If so, take it, and grab Dragonfire Inspiration. Use the Kobold web enhancement to get a claw/claw/bite routine. At some point, you'll want to nab Song Of The Heart (Eberron?) if you can, which adds +1 to your Inspire Courage. There's a level 1 Bard spell, castable as a swift action, that does the same. Badge of Valor (MiC?) gives you an immediate-action 3/day +1 to an active Inspire Courage ability, and Vest of Legends (MiC again?) adds 5 to your Bard level to see how powerful your Inspire Courage is.

    With all those, you can crank out 1+1(Feat)+1(Spell)+1(Badge)+1(Vest), or a +5 Inspire Courage boost, by level 3 or whenever you can afford both the badge and the vest, whichever comes first. By level 6, definitely. You might be stuck at "only" +4 if you grab Snowflake Wardance at level 3, but even so, novaing and getting +charisma to attacks, alongside 4d6 fire damage (from Dragonfire Inspiration) on all your party's attacks, and a claw/claw/bite full attack routine, would be pretty destructive. If you're going to get Snowflake Wardance that early, then you should try and get a flaw to nab some Extra Music, because you'll burn uses REALLY fast.

    ::Edit:: Just noticed your "no cheesing". To be fair, I left Words of Creation out of this, which would push you into +9d6 fire damage at level 6, but.. you can tone back some of these fairly easily. Dragonfire Inspiration plus the +1 spell and a single other source of boosting (feat, or the 3/day badge) isn't going to be game-breaking, but will bear a fair amount of power.
    Last edited by Quietus; 2010-11-24 at 02:14 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Use the web enhancement kobold. Its an update they made to make kobolds more playable as a player race. The biggest thing is that it gives them a Claw/Claw/Bite routine.

    With that, you'll want Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic). Kobolds are already dragonblooded, so you are good there. Take Dragonfire Inspiration as your first level feat, and either Multiattack or Songs of the Heart (ECS) as your 3rd level feat. Multiattack is fun because it reduces the penalty of your bite attack. You'll have 3 attacks per round, all of which get a fair boost to damage thanks to DFI. DFI also buffs your whole group, so you'll be contributing as a whole to your group's effectiveness.

    As far as planning, there are lots of routes to go. A 1 level dip in Mindbender is fairly common and pretty easy to do. This gives you 100' telepathy which qualifies you for Mindsight (Lords of Madness). This feat pretty much garuntees you'll probably never be surprised again.

    The only other real thing to plan for is levels 11 and 12, which should be Sublime Chord levels. Other than that, it might be worthwhile to take 1-2 levels of Virtuoso prior to those SC levels, and then progress your SC casting with Virt levels. They aren't THAT much better than SC levels, but they are a little better.

    EDIT:
    Badge is cheap...1400g IIRC, but the Vest (DMGII) is around 12-16k gold, so its out of reach of a character until about level 7-8 at the absolute earliest.
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-11-24 at 02:18 PM.
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    I can't remember, is there an ACF or variant that gets you the Dragonblood subtype? If so, take it, and grab Dragonfire Inspiration.
    kobolds are automatically dragonblood subtype (RotD). No need for weird variants.

    Making a Bard 9 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Virtuoso 9
    Nets you all sorts of fun songs to play. and also advances bardic music, inspire courage, and gives you sorcerer spellcasting.

    feats I would suggest:
    1 dragonfire inspiration
    3 Snowflake wardance
    6 Weapon Finesse
    9 Melodic Casting
    12 Lyric Spell

    at some point pick up a harmonizing weapon so you don't have to take Lingering Song

    In Eberron there is a Bard alternate class feature where you can sacrifice certain forms of music for a feat.

    I would drop fascinate (lvl 3 bard song) and get Song of the Heart (feat). Virtuoso gives you fascinate so you only wait till lvl 10 to get it and start doing fun suggestion shinanigans.

    Here's my break down of why I chose the feats in that order.

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    Snowflake wardance gives you a bigger + to hit before weapon finesse does, so I would take it before weapon finesse.
    due to your low BAB I would not take TWF.

    Melodic casting taken later as you have more spells per day and much higher power ones. Earlier on you will want to melee more than normal due to monsters having less AC.

    Lyric Spell allows you to retain spells cast by burning Bardic Music. More useful later due to the amount of Bardic Music you get later on.

    I would not suggest extra music, as by the time you hit 8th lvl you have A LOT of bardic music per day.

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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Make Deekin! You should totally go Bard into Red Dragon Disciple.

    Sorry, I have no actual advice but I had to post once I saw the NWN connection.
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    summon instrument is really useful as it allows for bardic song even when surprised.
    you'd be amazed at how handy summon instrument can be
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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Yesss. Thanks!

    I was thinking of Wardance at level 3, but 3 natural weapons with Dragonfire seems pretty fun.

    The options here are great.

    Any idea for spell selection? Any spells I might end up using a lot, or spells that I should learn?
    Last edited by Lazij Scalesong; 2010-11-24 at 02:47 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    OI!! No one dares me to do anything!! You're lucky I already had dinner or I'd eat you!!!

    Ah, I'm so funny
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    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Off topic: Oh crap. The kobold-bard!

    Tell me, got any good dead gnome jokes?

    Anyways. I'LL look all the options over.

    So all I need now are spells to learn, and which skills to focus in. I suspect I might need to make a social skill monkey, though I'm not entirely sure.
    Last edited by Lazij Scalesong; 2010-11-24 at 03:01 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazij Scalesong View Post
    ... Oh crap. The kobold-bard!
    THAT'S RIGHT, FEAR ME!!!

    Re: Bard spells. I never play them so I can't give any real advice. Howvere I see Glibness bandied around as an epic Bard spell (+30 to Bluff checks or something like that).

    And take ranks in Perform (Awe Inspiring Silence) so you can still use your Bardic Music even if you're gagged and bound.
    Last edited by Kobold-Bard; 2010-11-24 at 02:56 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3 - is a decent melee based bard build.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Hm. Inspirational Boost in conjunction with Dragonfire Inspiration? Does that work?

    Or was that mentioned already?
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazij Scalesong View Post
    Hm. Inspirational Boost in conjunction with Dragonfire Inspiration? Does that work?

    Or was that mentioned already?
    Works and was mentioned, I believe. And yeah, the basic Bard shell works just fine. You could use Arcane Disciple to learn Divine Power too; that would get you nice BAB when you do bother to cast it for lots of attacks.

    The principal issue with the whole deal, of course, is getting enough feats. Improving your songs costs feats, fighting costs feats, fighting with multiple weapons would cost even more feats. And so on and so fort. So...careful rationing on that front will get you far.
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    If you want to replace fire damage(which sucks) with Sonic damage(which is awesome), you might want to take a 1 level dip in Dragonfire Adept and take the Draconic Heritage(Battle Dragon) feat.

    This one level dip will save you a feat(Dragontouched) and will give you access to an awesome at-will invocation(your choice between: +6 to bluff, diplomacy and intimidate(all day), See invisibility+darkvision(all day), ability to identify items for free(at-will) or other ones who aren't so great).

    Alternatively, you can take a 1 level dip in Sorcerer, giving you access to a(non-scaling) familiar, a couple of spells, and the ability to use the majority of wands without a UMD check.
    Last edited by BenTheJester; 2010-11-24 at 03:59 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    I have no advice, but the title made me think you were challenging the user Kobold Bard to optimize something....
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Quote Originally Posted by zyborg View Post
    I have no advice, but the title made me think you were challenging the user Kobold Bard to optimize something....
    You're not the only one
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    I could see the mistake I wasn't even aware of a 'Kobold-Bard' on the forums. But I iz noob here.

    Anyways, I'll keep the feat rationing in mind. And why does fire suck? Lots of fire immune/resistant things? (and why does dipping into Dragonfire Adept save a feat?)
    Last edited by Lazij Scalesong; 2010-11-24 at 06:09 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazij Scalesong View Post
    I could see the mistake I wasn't even aware of a 'Kobold-Bard' on the forums. But I iz noob here.

    Anyways, I'll keep the feat rationing in mind. And why does fire suck? Lots of fire immune/resistant things? (and why does dipping into Dragonfire Adept save a feat?)
    Fire is the most common immunity and resistance, yes. Frost is probably second with Electricity third, Acid fourth and Sonic least resisted. And Dragonfire Adept gets you the Dragontouched-feat for free, which enables you to pick Draconic Heritage (a feat which determines the element of your Dragonfire Inspiration; it defaults to Fire otherwise) without taking a level in Sorcerer.
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Ah. So. Should I take Dragonfire Adept 1 later? I mean, I'd rather not multiclass this early, if only because I'd rather get used to one class right now.

    I'm not too familiar with the bard already. I'm thinking of taking Dragonfire Adept later (probably at five. Or six.) after I've adjusted to the bard's side of things.
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Instead of taking a dip of Dragonfire Adept, why not shoot for a flaw and take Dragontouched that way? Bards only have half-casting, but we still don't wanna lose precious spell-levels.

    And if you're shooting for a gish bard instead of a caster bard, you might wanna look into Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 5/Sublime Chord 9. Pick up Divine Power through Arcane Disciple, nick Heighten Spell, Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance and maybe Arcane Strike(depends on whether you feel you have spells to burn or not). Cast Rod-Chained Sonic Weapon Heightened to 8th or 9th, affect each natural weapon you have, throw out Divine Power, activate Dragonfire Inspiration. You now hit for 1d6 per +1 on Inspire Courage, 1d6+8d6 or 9d6(due to Lyric Thaumaturge enhancing your heightened Sonic Weapon) and roll-to-hit with your CHA.

    Plus you're a caster with 9th level spells. I guess.

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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazij Scalesong View Post
    Ah. So. Should I take Dragonfire Adept 1 later? I mean, I'd rather not multiclass this early, if only because I'd rather get used to one class right now.

    I'm not too familiar with the bard already. I'm thinking of taking Dragonfire Adept later (probably at five. Or six.) after I've adjusted to the bard's side of things.
    You definitely can, but DFA is super powerful at level one.

    And I don't like flaws, but if your DM agrees to let you use them, go for it.

    And the bard casting isn't that important, unless you want to aim for a sublime chord.

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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    If you can tolerate CG instead of CN, you open up the cheesetastic Words of Creation once you hit level 6, sending the damage of you and any melee in your party through the roof.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Hehehe. Sure. I'll look into flaw-for-dragon touched. Shouldn't be too hard.

    And I suppose Gish would be about what I'm aiming for. Ultimately, the funner, the better.

    And I'd rather not do with CG. He's definitely neutral when his motivation is 'Live beyond the next five minutes' every waking moment. And alcohol and money.

    Unless he gets sucked up into a cause that involves him, he generally doesn't care. I'd have difficulty justifying a CG kobold when all he is is 'For the music, for the lulz, for the booze, and for myself'.

    Though I hear WoC is pretty cheestastic. I would expect no less from the spell that shares an acronym with a group of game/toy designers.
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    It's a feat, actually. And with that characterization, he'd never managed to maintain Exalted status, which Words of Creation requires. But if you can...hooboy. Doubling your total bonus to Inspiration? Sign me up.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Yea. The fluff and flavor and character is all about fun. Good isn't really the thing I'm going for. And cheese isn't necessary, nor wanted, in this character right now.

    However... I will keep this in mind for another bard if I ever decide to make one.

    ... Looking it up further... Yea. That -is- cheese-tastic.
    Last edited by Lazij Scalesong; 2010-11-24 at 10:04 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    If you're going gish, you might want to look at:

    http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Blade...haracter_Build)

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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    If you like the idea of controlling weather, Stormsinger in Frostburn is pretty cool. It advance your Bard spellcasting as normal for a Bard but also allows you to use you Bardic music uses per day to get growing powers over controlling weather. Starts with Gust of Wind to Control Weather eventually ending with you being able to cast Storm of Vengeance, the 9th level spell, at lvl 15.

    The key cool part for me though is the Stormstrike and Greater Stormstrike abilities (1 Bardic Music for the regular, 2 for the Greater). Stormstrike lets you target a single person while the Greater is a 60ft line. You roll a Perform (Sing) check and that is how much lightning damage the ability does. Skill checks are so easy to maximize that you can be doing solid damage from the moment you get it.

    As well, for cool factor, your song is so awesome that it summons lightning. That is some sweet fluff!
    Last edited by CodeRed; 2010-11-25 at 12:48 AM.

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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    If you can go with the Unseelie Fey template (0LA, from Dragon Compendium, and among other things gives +2 Charisma and you can subtract your charisma modifier from adjacent enemy's saves). One fun martial build would be Inspire Awe Bard 4/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Warchanter 5/Sublime Chord 10. Inspire Awe variant loses Inspire Courage (ouch) but gives an amazing fear effect that's basically unresistable to anyone who is vulnerable to fear. Inspire Recklessness really boosts your party. And Sublime Chord gives impressive casting. This makes you a strong melee for the first 10 levels, switching into being a strong caster in the later part of your career (when being a melee means far less). For feats, consider Shock Trooper (stacks great with Inspire Recklessness) and Leap Attack, as well as Imperious Command (to ensure anyone vulnerable to fear is screwed), Requiem (so even undead are scared of you) and Haunting Melody (undead run in fear!).

    A little Kobold chanting creepily until all his enemies cower or run in fear, then charging and hacking them to bits... how appropriate!

    JaronK

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    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Just be Deekin. He is the best. Everyone loves him, he writes famous novels, he's a playwrite & amazingly funny.

    And if anyone asks if your a kobold just say this:
    Yes, Deekin very kobold, last Deekin look in mirror. Deekin not do that much, mirrors usually too high for Deekin.
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    Deekin is my favourite character of all time. I even asked for a Oots style drawing of him
    My Homebrew (200+) Not up to date

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    By Aruius.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Euphonistan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 3.5e: I dare you to optimize this (Kobold Bard)

    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    summon instrument is really useful as it allows for bardic song even when surprised.
    you'd be amazed at how handy summon instrument can be
    You wont need summon instrument unless you use perform that requires one. I suggest Perform oratory, dance, or other perform that does not require something in your hands. No need for an instrument then.

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