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    Default Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Just reading blade barrier spell again... It's a force based spell, and alot of the other force based spells are invisible, so is blade barrier?
    Doesn't say it is, but doesn't say it's not.
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Blade Barrier is visible.
    It provides cover, cover allows hiding. Hiding behind invisible things makes no sense.
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    I had always envisioned it as a barrier made out of actual, you know...swords. And it does provide cover, which would incline me towards it being semisolid, or at least visible. But check with your DM to be sure (if you are the DM, make your own ruling).
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Blade Barrier is visible.
    It provides cover, cover allows hiding. Hiding behind invisible things makes no sense.
    5' thick solid glass provides cover, can you hide behind that?
    Wall of force gives you full cover, can you hide behind that?
    Wall of water gives cover and is transparent (not opaque), can you hide behind that?

    Just because something provides cover does not mean it isn't see through.
    Always attack a manís strengths, No one ever expects you to attack the strongest part of the fort. Up the middle thatís where the action is. And itís the same in life. Donít run away, attack them head on as their coming at you at full speed. Because that my friend is living.

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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Let's see....
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD - Blade Barrier
    An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence.
    Now, let's compare that to some other Force spells:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD - Wall of Force
    A wall of force spell creates an invisible wall of force.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD - Mage Armor
    An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, providing a +4 armor bonus to AC.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD - Forcecage
    This powerful spell brings into being an immobile, invisible cubical prison composed of either bars of force or solid walls of force (your choice).
    As opposed to:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD - Resilient Sphere
    A globe of shimmering force encloses a creature, provided the creature is small enough to fit within the diameter of the sphere.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD - Interposing Hand
    Interposing hand creates a Large magic hand that appears between you and one opponent.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD - Tiny Hut
    You create an unmoving, opaque sphere of force of any color you desire around yourself.


    Seems to me that if the effect is invisible, it will say so. Don't assume that anything made of pure force is invisible, because that's blatantly untrue.
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    In ddo it has a visual effect.

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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    I didn't assume it was invisible, I asked a question in order to see if its written somewhere differently in one of the other WOTC books or already answered in a sage advice.

    Battering ram, Blast of force, Force Claw, Battering Ram, Wall of Force, Force cage and Mage Armor are specifically invisible.

    Force Chest you can choose weather it's visible or not.

    Persistent Blade and Vortex of Teeth are both translucent.

    The Chain Missile, Dinosaur Stampede, Enveloping cocoon, Ethereal chamber, Force missile, Force wave, Howling Chain, Manyjaws, Moonpath, Slapping Hand, Spiritjaws, Sword of Deception, Thunderlance and Wingbind Spells all give exact descriptions of what they look like.

    Bigby's spell don't ever say there are visible. Neither does Tenserís Floating Disk, Magic missile, Spiritual weapon, Gembomb or Blade Barrier.

    So, these hand full of spells that do not state whether they are visible or invisible.
    How do you determine if they are visible or invisible?
    Last edited by Splendor; 2010-11-27 at 08:54 AM.
    Always attack a manís strengths, No one ever expects you to attack the strongest part of the fort. Up the middle thatís where the action is. And itís the same in life. Donít run away, attack them head on as their coming at you at full speed. Because that my friend is living.

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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Gut DM call. Will the pc's abuse it if it is invisible? yes? visible. no? invisible

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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Yeah, an invisible Blade Barrier is definitely abusable. Just cast and lure enemies across it...

    You should have to deliberately cast it with Invisible Spell for that to work.

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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    If the spell description specifically says it's invisible, as noted above with Wall Of Force, Mage Armor, and such, then it's invisible. Otherwise, it has a specific appearance - whirling blades for Blade Barrier, giant floating hands for Bigby's spells, etc.
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?


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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Splendor View Post
    I didn't assume it was invisible, I asked a question in order to see if its written somewhere differently in one of the other WOTC books or already answered in a sage advice.

    Battering ram, Blast of force, Force Claw, Battering Ram, Wall of Force, Force cage and Mage Armor are specifically invisible.

    Force Chest you can choose weather it's visible or not.

    Persistent Blade and Vortex of Teeth are both translucent.

    The Chain Missile, Dinosaur Stampede, Enveloping cocoon, Ethereal chamber, Force missile, Force wave, Howling Chain, Manyjaws, Moonpath, Slapping Hand, Spiritjaws, Sword of Deception, Thunderlance and Wingbind Spells all give exact descriptions of what they look like.

    Bigby's spell don't ever say there are visible. Neither does Tenserís Floating Disk, Magic missile, Spiritual weapon, Gembomb or Blade Barrier.

    So, these hand full of spells that do not state whether they are visible or invisible.
    How do you determine if they are visible or invisible?
    My point was it will SAY whether or not it's invisible, since that's a rather important detail. Blade barrier is described as being blades, so it looks like blades. I'm sure there's a whole host of non-Force spells that don't bother to mention their visibility, either. Why haven't you asked about them?

    Is bull's strength invisible? Now that's a question!
    Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2010-11-27 at 07:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Splendor View Post
    1. 5' thick solid glass provides cover, can you hide behind that?
    2. Wall of force gives you full cover, can you hide behind that?
    3. Wall of water gives cover and is transparent (not opaque), can you hide behind that?
    1. If it provides cover (at a cursory glance, I couldn't find the rule you're referring to), you can hide behind it, assuming you're not being observed, or have appropriate HiPS.
    2. Wall of Force blocks the line of effect, and thus provides total cover, so technically you wouldn't have to hide.
    3. Wall of Water seems to provide cover against attacks only (or more specifically, against attacks from the outside to the inside, but not the other way around) so you can't hide behind it. You might be able to hide inside it, though.
    Anyhow, I agree with Killian (and the Giant), if Blade Barrier was invisible it would say so. Instead, it describes the effect as a "vertical curtain of whirling blades", so I assume that's what it looks like.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2010-11-27 at 09:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    If the spell description specifically says it's invisible, as noted above with Wall Of Force, Mage Armor, and such, then it's invisible. Otherwise, it has a specific appearance - whirling blades for Blade Barrier, giant floating hands for Bigby's spells, etc.
    This. It's visible.

    And even if it was invisible, the blades are constantly whirling. That's going to refract the light like crazy and make it obvious anyway.

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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And even if it was invisible, the blades are constantly whirling. That's going to refract the light like crazy and make it obvious anyway.
    Invisible things don't refract the light. Invisibility in D&D isn't a cloaking device, it's the real thing.
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Invisible things don't refract the light. Invisibility in D&D isn't a cloaking device, it's the real thing.
    False - you can spot invisible creatures without magic, so there is at least some light refraction going on. This is further supported by the fact that moving invisible things are easier to see.

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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    False - you can spot invisible creatures without magic, so there is at least some light refraction going on. This is further supported by the fact that moving invisible things are easier to see.
    But it doesn't say that it's possible because of light refraction. That's just your assumption of how it works.
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    But it doesn't say that it's possible because of light refraction. That's just your assumption of how it works.
    Of course it's an assumption - as I was not a member of the PHB design team, I can only assume what they meant by "invisible." But being an assumption doesn't make it wrong.

    If invisible in D&D truly meant "unable to be detected visually" then no DC of Spot check would work - they would automatically fail (just like Listen checks automatically fail in magical silence.) Since they don't, there is clearly something there to be detected.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2010-11-27 at 11:08 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    i always assumed it was stuff like spotting the grass bending under the invisible person feet and other similar effects.

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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Quote Originally Posted by awa View Post
    i always assumed it was stuff like spotting the grass bending under the invisible person feet and other similar effects.
    And if they're levitating in open space?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    some other subtle effect such as the way the dust in the air blows around them.
    I could point out that invisibility works on creatures with dark vison in complete darkness so your argument has whole as well.

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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Quote Originally Posted by awa View Post
    some other subtle effect such as the way the dust in the air blows around them.
    I could point out that invisibility works on creatures with dark vison in complete darkness so your argument has whole as well.
    That is more a commentary on how darkvision itself defies logic than any problem with my own reasoning. Also, the spot check would work even in a dust-free environment, or underwater, or in a pocket dimension/rope trick etc. The only commonality between those places where sight would be concerned would be a presence or absence of light.

    The Giant's take on darkvision is that it actually creates light (see oots #76 and# 471); while that's not my personal view, it does actually provide an explanation of how the bloody thing works.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2010-11-28 at 03:19 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    IMO you could rule it either way really.
    personally i think the visual aspect is cool so my group uses it. I like to think of it as the one that we see in OoTS
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That is more a commentary on how darkvision itself defies logic than any problem with my own reasoning. Also, the spot check would work even in a dust-free environment, or underwater, or in a pocket dimension/rope trick etc. The only commonality between those places where sight would be concerned would be a presence or absence of light.
    No comment on other things, but underwater? You -will- be known.
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Yeah, there would be a big you shaped hole in the water

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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    if darkvison created light then every one could see by it which is a massive change to the rules. darkvison would instead just be light

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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Quote Originally Posted by awa View Post
    if darkvison created light then every one could see by it which is a massive change to the rules. darkvison would instead just be light
    I think they meant that darkvision creates a type of light that can only be seen by those with darkvision - see RADAR.
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    Default Re: Is Blade barrier invisible?

    Quote Originally Posted by awa View Post
    if darkvison created light then every one could see by it which is a massive change to the rules. darkvison would instead just be light
    I know that - I'm sure Elan being "blinded" by Durkon's darkvision was pure Rule of Funny. What I'm pointing out is the deeper meaning behind that joke - that nobody actually knows how Darkvision works.

    In any case, I reiterate - it's possible to see invisible things without magic, therefore they aren't truly invisible. I personally think refracting light makes more sense than random particles or pieces of the creature retaining visibility.

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