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    Default New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Background- Was just wondering how a character class made up of bonus feats (besides the generic ones in the SRD) would play out, with a few things added in.

    The Pantologist
    "So, you're a pantologist, eh?"
    "Yes."
    "So you're an expert in pants?"
    "No, it means I know how to do this."
    - Exchange between a Pantologist and a very unlucky new acquaintance


    Some people want to know how to do everything. These people usually wind up becoming factotums, or some other Jack-of-all-trades class. Others want to just know about everything. These people become pantologists, adventuring to learn about everything they possibly can, picking up a trick or two along the way to aid them in their pursuits, attempting to learn everything, while trying to get everyone else to learn that their name means that they wish to study all human knowledge, not that they have a thing for pants.

    HD: d8
    Skills: Craft, Knowledge(all), and 7 others of the player's choice.
    Skill Points: 8 + Int Modifier Skill Points

    The Pantologist
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Inspiration<br>Points

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |Pantologist's Knowledge, Just Picked it up as I Went Along(skills)|-

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |Bonus Feat|-

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |Pantologist's Knack, Just Picked it up as I Went Along(techniques)|1

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Bonus Feat|1

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Bonus Feat, Pantologist's Twist 1/day|2

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Pantologist's Knack|2

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Bonus Feat|3

    8th|
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |Bonus Feat|3

    9th|
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |Pantologist's Knack|4

    10th|
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |Bonus Feat, Pantologist's Twist 2/day|4

    11th|
    +8
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |Bonus Feat|5

    12th|
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |Pantologist's Knack|5

    13th|
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |Bonus Feat|6

    14th|
    +10
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |Bonus Feat|6

    15th|
    +11
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |Pantologist's Knack, Pantologist's Twist 3/day|7

    16th|
    +12
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |Bonus Feat|7

    17th|
    +12
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |Bonus Feat|8

    18th|
    +13
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |Pantologist's Knack|8

    19th|
    +14
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |Bonus Feat|9

    20th|
    +15
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |Ultimate Maneuver, Pantologist's Twist 4/day|9[/table]

    Weapon Proficiencies: Pantologists are proficient with all simple weapons, one martial weapon, and light armor

    Pantologist's Knowledge: Pantologists are interested in all kinds of knowledge, having looked through at least one book on almost every topic, and easily picking up knowledge from others as they go through life. This acts as Bardic Knowledge.

    Just Sort of Picked it up as I Went Along:
    At 1st level, the skill for picking up knowledge of other skills is increased in the Pantologist. As long as he has observed a use of the skill in question at least 3 times before within 24 hours, whenever someone makes a skill check in front of the Pantologist, he may roll(d20 + Int mod) to pick up the skill, the DC being equal to the result of the skill check observed. If successful, the skill is added as a class skill. This may not be done more than once per week, and all skill checks observed must succeed.
    Ex. A Pantologist strolls throughout the city, when he observes a street magician making a Sleight of Hand check in order to fool the audience with a trick. Having seen various other street magicians try similar things with Sleight of Hand, and observing them, he decides to try to learn Sleight of Hand. The street magician rolls a 12 + 5(due to his ranks in Sleight of Hand) = 17. The DC of the check was 15. If the Pantologist rolls a 17 or higher in his attempt, he adds Sleight of Hand as a class skill.

    At 3rd level, the Pantologist learns how to mimic class features with this check. However, in this case the Pantologist need only to have seen the class feature used twice within the past month before making the check. Also, the DC is equal to: HD of Character observed + Level of class feature + 1d10. Should the Pantologist succeed in this check, he learns the class feature as a technique. He may make use of techniques learned this way through Inspiration Points(as per Factotum). To use a technique, a Pantologist must spend a number of Inspiration Points equal to the technique's level in order to use it. There is no limit as to how often a Pantologist may use this version of Just Picked it up As I Went Along, but the Pantologist is limited to his Int mod techniques for each level of technique he learns. (ex. a Pantologist with an Intelligence score of 16 can only learn 3 level 0 techniques, three level 1 techniques, and so on.)


    Bonus Feat: At all levels listed above, the Pantologist gains any one feat he meets the prerequisites for as a bonus feat, excepting Font of Inspiration.

    Pantologist's Knack: After some time, the Pantologist's use of one skill has become more exceptional, finding the ability to use it more awesomely or simply finding a new way to use it. At 3rd level and every 3 levels after, the Pantologist either gains the Skill Focus feat for one skill he knows, or learns a skill trick that requires one skill he knows. The Pantologist must still have the prerequisite number of ranks to learn the skill trick.

    Pantologist's Twist: As time passes and the Pantologist becomes more comfortable with his use of skill tricks, he occasionally has a flash of insight as how to make use of two skills in a daring endeavor. At 5th level and every 5 levels after, the Pantologist gains one daily use of this ability. When using this ability, the Pantologist may make use of two skill tricks he knows as part of the same action/check, depending on what the skills require to be activated.

    Ultimate Maneuver:
    At 20th level, the Pantologist is just plain skilled. For a number of skill checks per day equal to half his Pantologist level, the Pantologist may choose to gain a +20 bonus to the roll.

    Please PEACH
    Last edited by Pyromancer999; 2011-08-31 at 06:54 PM.

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    As it's currently phrased, the Bonus Feat feature implies you gain every feat you currently qualify for. Assuming you don't intend that, which you shouldn't because of dips, it should say "choose any one feat you qualify for."

    8+Int skill points would probably make more sense, considering it's a skill-heavy class. That or break the mold and go to 10+Int. (Theoretically you could even take it to 11.)

    Generally speaking it's ... about as good as the fighter, I guess? Skills and skill tricks and feats are cool and all, but they're not great as a power base.

    Edit: Although it can have UMD, which is a pretty big boost.
    Last edited by gkathellar; 2010-12-02 at 04:52 PM. Reason: Thought.
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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    As it's currently phrased, the Bonus Feat feature implies you gain every feat you currently qualify for. Assuming you don't intend that, which you shouldn't because of dips, it should say "choose any one feat you qualify for."

    8+Int skill points would probably make more sense, considering it's a skill-heavy class. That or break the mold and go to 10+Int. (Theoretically you could even take it to 11.)
    Done.

    Generally speaking it's ... about as good as the fighter, I guess? Skills and skill tricks and feats are cool and all, but they're not great as a power base.
    So, you'd place it for around tier 4 or 5? I was more aiming for a tier 3, or, at most, tier 2 sort of class. So, I suppose that maybe I should add something more. Here's a few ideas I've been toying around with in my head, let me know what you think of them:
    • Bonus feat every level except 1st
    • Few more skill tricks
    • Maybe let them pick up a technique or two, 1/day(see here)

    Edit: Although it can have UMD, which is a pretty big boost.
    True, although me (the few times I've had a chance to play as a player), and my group don't really use magic devices.

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    I think what he means is that skill tricks and bonus feats are neat and all, but they'll only get you so far. I've never taken a close look at skill tricks, but your damage will be comparatively low at high levels, you don't have any sort of special protections, and you can't do anything earth-shattering. You're just the guy who can use any skill. You don't even have trapfinding. Feats and probably skill tricks enhance what a character does, but have a hard time making up the entirety of his abilities. Lower levels you'll be fine, but later, you'll be surpassed entirely if you don't pick up wands and staffs.

    On a technical note, what sort of roll does he make to pick up skills? It doesn't currently say, so is just a d20 for now.
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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    It makes a little too good of a one-level dip. The ability to gain any skill as a class skill, coupled with Able Learner, means that 1st level of this nets you tons of skills, a feat and a tons of always class skills.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Ring of Evasion means never playing a monk with monk levels again. There is just no reason to dip that stuff. I know we're all about using every part of the buffalo here, but can we just admit that it's inedible?

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by KaganMonk View Post
    I think what he means is that skill tricks and bonus feats are neat and all, but they'll only get you so far. I've never taken a close look at skill tricks, but your damage will be comparatively low at high levels, you don't have any sort of special protections, and you can't do anything earth-shattering. You're just the guy who can use any skill. You don't even have trapfinding. Feats and probably skill tricks enhance what a character does, but have a hard time making up the entirety of his abilities. Lower levels you'll be fine, but later, you'll be surpassed entirely if you don't pick up wands and staffs.

    On a technical note, what sort of roll does he make to pick up skills? It doesn't currently say, so is just a d20 for now.
    Just updated it. It's d20 + Int modifier, so while it'll be unlikely the Pantologist will learn a skill from a high-level display of it, it'll still stand a chance of learning another skill.

    Personally, I don't think Trapfinding serves much purpose, so I don't think I'd even really bother with it. However, you are correct on the power level. I've thought of a few ideas, posted above, plus I'm sort of tinkering around in my head with a inspiration points/technique system in my head at the moment. In any case, it'd be great to get some feedback on those ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose87 View Post
    It makes a little too good of a one-level dip. The ability to gain any skill as a class skill, coupled with Able Learner, means that 1st level of this nets you tons of skills, a feat and a tons of always class skills.
    The "any skill as a class skill" thing is only 1/week. Certainly valuable over time, but then again, not very valuable until the later end of the campaign, and it's not like the class is overpowered at the moment. Also, no bonus feat at first level.

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    As for skill dipping you can do the same thing minus the feat with the Factotum. it's not game breaking in my mind.
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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    I'm sorry I know this has nothing to do with this class but what are exactly these tiers you speak of?
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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    A system for determining the "balance point" of classes.

    Bear in mind that Tiers 1 and 2 aren't just "more powerful." This is a common misconception. They actually break the game with relative ease.

    General preference on these forums is Tier 3.
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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    A system for determining the "balance point" of classes.

    Bear in mind that Tiers 1 and 2 aren't just "more powerful." This is a common misconception. They actually break the game with relative ease.
    True on that. Still, this class seems like it needs a bit more power, as it seems like it's only tier 4 or 5.
    General preference on these forums is Tier 3.
    Same here, which is why I aim to power up this class only enough to reach that level, so comments on my ideas to boost this class up a bit would be appreciated.

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    I think some techniques from the other class you linked to would work, thematically and otherwise. I'm not sure how many, mind, but they would fit.
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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    I think some techniques from the other class you linked to would work, thematically and otherwise. I'm not sure how many, mind, but they would fit.
    That's a good start. The inspiration point/technique system I have in mind is that the Pantologist can essentially use his Just Picked It Up as I Went Along class feature on class features starting 2nd or 3rd level, learning class features as techniques, spending inspiration points to activate them. In all other respects, the technique system would pretty much work the same.

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Any more comments/more PEACHing? I have a feeling that this class isn't as good as it could be, and I'd like some feedback on the ideas I've had for boosting this class up a bit. After this is done, I can finally get to work on the Christmas Holiday Feats.
    Last edited by Pyromancer999; 2010-12-04 at 09:10 PM.

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Technique/Inspiration Point System posted. Comments?

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Significantly improved. That kind of crazy build versatility puts that Pantologist solidly in Tier 3. Also, not having inspiration points at first levels limits Font of Inspiration nonsense, since you can't grab two flaws and go human to purchase it four times at level one.
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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Significantly improved. That kind of crazy build versatility puts that Pantologist solidly in Tier 3. Also, not having inspiration points at first levels limits Font of Inspiration nonsense, since you can't grab two flaws and go human to purchase it four times at level one.
    ...it gets a bonus feat every level it doesn't get something else.

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    ...it gets a bonus feat every level it doesn't get something else.
    Actually, that's not quite correct. It's true that the character does get a feat at every level-but not a bonus feat every level, and that's only so long as they don't multiclass. At 1st, 3rd, and every 3 levels after that, you don't get a bonus feat. You get the feat you'd normally get for character advancement. Also, as pointed out earlier on this thread, if it's just a bunch of bonus feats, it's not going to exactly be tier 3. After all, look at the fighter.

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Sooooo, any more comments on the inspiration/technique system?

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromancer999 View Post
    Actually, that's not quite correct. It's true that the character does get a feat at every level-but not a bonus feat every level, and that's only so long as they don't multiclass. At 1st, 3rd, and every 3 levels after that, you don't get a bonus feat. You get the feat you'd normally get for character advancement. Also, as pointed out earlier on this thread, if it's just a bunch of bonus feats, it's not going to exactly be tier 3. After all, look at the fighter.
    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    ...it gets a bonus feat every level it doesn't get something else.
    I was specifically referring to the ridiculously large number of times font of inspiration taken part, actually.

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    I was specifically referring to the ridiculously large number of times font of inspiration taken part, actually.
    True, that would be overpowered. I've now changed it so that Font of Inspiration cannot be taken as a bonus feat.

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    why not just limit it to feats it doesn't already have? the point is that it knows a bit of everything, but not everything about it, no?

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    why not just limit it to feats it doesn't already have? the point is that it knows a bit of everything, but not everything about it, no?
    .....Not following you here. What do you mean?

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Add to the skills available to the class. Seriously, you have to take three knowledge or go cross-classed if you have a 10 in Int, and I'd guess that Int. is one of this class's most important attributes.

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Add to the skills available to the class. Seriously, you have to take three knowledge or go cross-classed if you have a 10 in Int, and I'd guess that Int. is one of this class's most important attributes.
    Not sure what you mean, exactly, but am thinking of changing it from 4 to 7 skills you choose.
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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Skills: Craft, Knowledge(all), and 4 others of the player's choice.
    Skill Points: 8 + Int Modifier Skill Points
    If you get 8 skill points, and only get four skills to choose from, you would have four of knowledge/craft maxed, minimum. Then you add in an intelligence bonus, which I believe anyone who took this class would have. So you would have four skills and then a ton of knowledge and crafts. From the way I look at this class, it would have a few knowledges/crafts and then a ton of other skills. Make sense this time? (I suck at explaining sometimes)

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    Default Re: New Base Class - Pantologist, a feat at every level[3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    If you get 8 skill points, and only get four skills to choose from, you would have four of knowledge/craft maxed, minimum. Then you add in an intelligence bonus, which I believe anyone who took this class would have. So you would have four skills and then a ton of knowledge and crafts. From the way I look at this class, it would have a few knowledges/crafts and then a ton of other skills. Make sense this time? (I suck at explaining sometimes)
    While it'd be nice to give them more skills, I don't want to make the skill-learning part of Just Picked It Up as I Went Along, which I rather like. I can still see your point a little, though, so I'll up the selectable number of skills to 7.
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