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    Default Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XVI. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

    Contestants: You will need to present your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

    Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

    32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
    If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

    Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

    Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59pm CUT on Friday, December 10th 2010 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, true_shinken. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying.

    Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

    Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.

    Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points.

    I am going to have to ask the contestants to PM me about any disagreement with the judges. Under no circumstances is a contestant to defend themselves inside the thread, since it breaks anonymity.

    Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

    Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.
    Spoiler
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    NAME OF ENTRY
    {table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

    1st|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    2nd|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    3rd|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    4th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    5th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    6th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    7th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    8th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    9th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    10th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    11th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    12th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    13th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    14th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    15th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    16th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    17th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    18th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    19th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    20th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

    Code
    Spoiler
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    [b]NAME OF ENTRY[/b]
    {table=head][b]Level[/b]|[B]Class[/B]|[b]Base Attack<br>Bonus[/b]|[b]Fort Save[/b]|[b]Ref Save[/b]|[b]Will Save[/b]|[B]Skills[/B]|[B]Feats[/B]|[b]Class Features[/b]

    1st|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    2nd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    3rd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    4th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    5th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    6th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    7th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    8th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    9th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    10th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    11th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    12th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    13th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    14th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    15th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    16th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    17th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    18th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    19th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    20th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]


    For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)
    Spoiler
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    Spells per day/Spells Known
    {table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

    1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

    Code
    Spoiler
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    [b]Spells per day/Spells Known[/b]
    {table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]0lvl[/b]|[b]1st[/b]|[b]2nd[/b]|[b]3rd[/b]|[b]4th[/b]|[b]5th[/b]|[b]6th[/b]|[b]7th[/b]|[b]8th[/b]|[b]9th[/b]

    1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]


    For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
    Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

    Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners.

    So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for about 5 judges and as many contestants as feel like playing!

    This week's special ingredient is:
    Dungeon Master Guide's Assassin!
    We will have trophies for 1st through 3rd places, as well as a special trophy for honorable mention. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.

    Allez optimiser!

    Judges
    Kesnit
    Grynning
    Cieryn
    Daragos Kitsune
    Quietus

    Contestants
    Amphetryon
    Thurbane
    Akal Saris
    OMGPonies
    TerrickTerran
    Kelb_Panthera
    Private-Prinny
    Tvtyrant
    Escheton
    BoonL
    Xiander
    Tam_OConnor
    gbprime
    Pelfaid
    Devmaar
    Fax Celestis
    BG
    dextercorvia
    mangosta71
    d13
    Saint Riddley
    Zonugal
    WinWin
    Amechra
    BugBearTrap
    Fearan
    T G Oskar

    Past Competitions

    Iron Chef I: Entropomancer
    Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent
    Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage
    Iron Chef IV: Stonelord
    Iron Chef V: War Chanter
    Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks
    Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept
    Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist
    Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord
    Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar
    Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo
    Iron Chef XII: War Mind
    Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante
    Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song
    Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-12-08 at 09:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    T^T you had to select my favourite PRG class from the DMG... the week I just CAN'T even think on competing didn't you?

    Guess I'll sit back as an spectator one more time.... oh well, at least by the end of the week I'll get some awesome ideas for my next assassin
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Wow, such a basic class. :)

    A small part of me wants to sign up as a contestant. However, I know I am awful at optimization. (Hey, I LIKE melee classes...) So I am jumping in to judge again.

    My judging criteria...

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    Originality
    I tend to look at each entry based on their own merit, rather than compare each to another. If two entries use the same base class, but go about them differently, they won't lose Originality points from me. If the entries are similar, they will. Multiple builds that all use the same "trick" will be marked down.

    Power
    I stole this from a previous judge, but it sums up my point of view. "Power comes down to, quite simply, how the build would fare in a mid-power campaign." I am not an min-maxer, and I do not play with min-maxers. I'm used to thinking of PCs as they are seen in many of the D&D books - where characters of different types of classes work together to get the job done.

    Elegance
    I REALLY dislike dipping, which I define as taking 1-2 levels of a base class. (Exceptions to that are if a PrC requires Class A 1/Class B 5, or something to that extent.) I am a little more open to taking 1-2 levels of a PrC, especially in a competition like this where it is expected 10 levels of another PrC will be taken. However, excessive "dipping" of PrCs will also lose Elegance points.

    On the flip side, I like a good story. A lot of "strange" class changes and combos can be "overlooked" if the contestant can provide a logical reason for them. Also, I am aware English is not everyone's first language, and if a contestant feels they were marked down because they could not adequately explain their concept, I am willing to reevaluate my analysis of their Elegance. (Note I did not say I will automatically increase their score, but if informed, I will give it a second look.)

    As a heads-up, an extremely powerful PC will be marked down if, in my view, it would not work well as a member of a mixed party. (Mixed party defined as "not all PCs are pure casters.") That is not to say any Tier 1 PC will lose points, as they can be built in a way to help (rather than replace) the rest of the party.

    Use of Secret Ingredient
    The point of this competition is the Special Ingredient, so obviously it should be the focus. Competitors will lose points if they use less than 9 levels of the SI. (I'd prefer to see all 10, but sometimes, things just cannot be helped.) The fewer levels of the SI, the more points I take off.

    Beyond that, how well the entire build fits in with the SI. If I feel the SI is tacked on only because it is the SI, I will mark down.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Y'all just pencil me in as a contestant every time by now, right? Competing.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Right...I'm determined to get an entry in this time. Put me down as a contestant!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Yay! My favorite core PrC makes its appearance at last! I've actually used assassin in one of my builds here already

    This will be awesome though - I fully expect at least half a dozen poison-using builds that I can then add to my poison users' guide! Get to it people!

    Also, I'll release a full list of 3.5-legal classes & PrCs with Death Attacks shortly. I've been working on it for a while now, and I think it will help contestants who are interesting in optimizing that aspect of the assassin.

    QUESTION: There are 2 known variants of the assassin - the Avenger and the Psionic Assassin in Secrets of Sarlona. In the interest of more varied competition, can these two variants be used in place of the standard assassin?
    Handbooks: (Hosted on BG)
    [3.5] The Poison Handbook
    [3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
    [3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook

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    Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    QUESTION: There are 2 known variants of the assassin - the Avenger and the Psionic Assassin in Secrets of Sarlona. In the interest of more varied competition, can these two variants be used in place of the standard assassin?
    Psionic Assassin is a real variant and it's acceptable. Avenger is a different PrC altogether, so that's a no.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    What about the Mind's Eye Psychic Assassin? I am not sure if it is different from the Secrets of Sarlona one, but I think it has some merits.
    Last edited by Dusk Eclipse; 2010-12-02 at 07:55 PM. Reason: Fixed Link
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    What about the Mind's Eye Psychic Assassin? I am not sure if it is different from the Secrets of Sarlona one, but I think it has some merits.
    It's also a different class, like the Avenger.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    It's also a different class, like the Avenger.
    Should have figured it out, when it called manifesting level as a pre-req...
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Geez, the ONE core PrC I didn't have a basic idea for...I think I've got one now, though. Put me down as a contestant.
    Iron Chef Optimization Challenge Old Head and Unofficial Archivist
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    This is what happens when they let me DM: Beyond the Horizon!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Umm... Maybe I'll compete?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Awww...I was hoping for Arcane Archer, I had a really good idea for it. I was actually going to compete! I do like Assassin though.

    Anyways, for this one, put me in my customary judge's chair. I'll post criteria when I get back from eating.


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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    I wouldn't count on me finishing a build, but I'll try it. I've got a few ideas anyways.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    I've been watching these for a while. I'd like to give it a shot as a contestant.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Glad to have you join Kelb :)
    Handbooks: (Hosted on BG)
    [3.5] The Poison Handbook
    [3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
    [3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook

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    Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    I'm tentatively in. I'll see if I can cook up anything. I have no expectations to win with Akal competing.

    Especially since the secret to his success is- *is poisoned by Akal*
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    I might be in? I know exactly what I want to do but I don't know if I have time to do it in. Finals and all that jazz.

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    Akal Saris's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    I'm tentatively in. I'll see if I can cook up anything. I have no expectations to win with Akal competing.

    Especially since the secret to his success is- *is poisoned by Akal*
    And the most important rule is: Never go in against a Sicilian when Death is on the line!!
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Contestant slot for me as well, please.
    .
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Question: nowhere in the assassins class feature descriptions does it say that he can cast his spells in any kind of armor without incurring arcane spell failure. The bard's ability to cast in light armor is described in his armor and weapon proficiencies, not the description of his spell-casting; which is relevant because the assassins spell-casting class feature is specifically described as working like the bard's spell-casting. Can an assassin cast in light armor, or not?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Almost exactly the same question came up with the Vigilante's casting in another Iron Chef.

    I think the final decsion was that it could be read either way.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    I've actually used assassin in one of my builds here already
    Me too ... and I won. I think that excuses me from this Round.

    I don't have time IRL to compete anyway ...
    You can call me Draz.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Question: nowhere in the assassins class feature descriptions does it say that he can cast his spells in any kind of armor without incurring arcane spell failure. The bard's ability to cast in light armor is described in his armor and weapon proficiencies, not the description of his spell-casting; which is relevant because the assassins spell-casting class feature is specifically described as working like the bard's spell-casting. Can an assassin cast in light armor, or not?
    honestly I feel that it is intentional for them to be able to

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    I tend to see assasins more as gentleman killers. Not stooping to wear the armor of warriors, for it is beneath them. As such they are unable to cast in it.

  27. - Top - End - #27
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    Akal Saris's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Me too ... and I won. I think that excuses me from this Round.

    I don't have time IRL to compete anyway ...
    I only got 2nd place with my assassin =(
    Handbooks: (Hosted on BG)
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    Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!

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    ElfRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Very special trophies in progress...
    Shin likes the idea!
    Last edited by Jumilk; 2010-12-03 at 03:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Quote Originally Posted by Escheton View Post
    I tend to see assasins more as gentleman killers. Not stooping to wear the armor of warriors, for it is beneath them. As such they are unable to cast in it.
    I always saw them as "Rogues with extra stuff," so could cast in light armor, but nothing heavier. *shrug*
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVI

    Hmm, the Assassin...

    This one'll be quite difficult. The assassin is a very niche character and I'm curious to see if anyone can break the standard mold. I'm afraid most builds will look the same.

    Regardless, I might be in as a contestant. I can't make any guarantees of finishing, but I'll try.


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