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Thread: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
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2010-12-03, 08:57 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
This is a repost of a homebrew resulting from months of debate on the old WotC forums several years back. It was a collaborative effort between many of us, including myself, Eyeless Blonde, Otto the Bugbear, OW4Angel, Lord Pendragon, and many others. I know at the time I stopped updating it, there was some stuff I wanted to revise, and looking back at it now, there's some things I may have redone differently, but for now I'm going to post it as it was.
Disclaimer: If you think the Fighter is perfect as is, don't bother with this topic, it's not for you. This is built on the assumption that the Fighter is lacking in something, and how best to fix what it is lacking.
The redone class is all made with the intention of giving the Fighter access to new, unique, and fun tools, and giving them more versatility and power. The Fighter is the master of many disciplines, able to switch between many different fighting styles, while being proficient in all of them in a way that no other character can be.
Fighter
The Fighter is a true savant of the field of battle. Rather than concentrating on brute strength as the barbarians do, the violent survivalist aspects of nature as a ranger, or the pursuit of higher goals as the paladins, a fighter concentrates on--and excells at--one thing: battle. A consummate master of the field, a fighter has come to understand a number of different styles of combat, each explored to a depth that no other class, even those who are considered to be first-class warriors in their own right, can hope to match.
Alignment- Any.
Hit Die- d10.
Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate(Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography) (Int), (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level- (4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level- 4 + Int modifier.
Class FeaturesCode:Table: Fighter Level BAB Fort Ref Will Stances Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 0 Bonus feat 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 0 Bonus feat 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 0 Warrior's Focus (5 round recovery) 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 0 Combat Style (2 styles) Style feat 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 1 Learning Ease, Warrior's Focus(4 Round Recovery) 6th +6 +5 +2 +2 1 Style feat 7th +7 +5 +2 +2 1 Warrior's Focus Ability 8th +8 +6 +2 +2 1 Style feat 9th +9 +6 +3 +3 1 Warrior's Focus Ability 10th +10 +7 +3 +3 1 Combat Style Mastery(4 styles), Warrior's Focus(3 round recovery) Style feat 11th +11 +7 +3 +3 2 Style Fluidity 12th +12 +8 +4 +4 2 Style feat 13th +13 +8 +4 +4 2 Warrior's Focus Ability 14th +14 +9 +4 +4 2 Style feat 15th +15 +9 +5 +5 2 Warrior's Focus Ability, Warrior's Focus(2 Round Recovery) 16th +16 +10 +5 +5 2 Style feat 17th +17 +10 +5 +5 3 Greater Style Fluidity 18th +18 +11 +6 +6 3 Style feat 19th +19 +11 +6 +6 3 Warrior's Focus Ability 20th +20 +12 +6 +6 3 Style feat, Warrior's Focus(1 Round Recovery)
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency- A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
Bonus Feats- At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level. These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. Any feat a fighter takes as a bonus feat must be specified as a Fighter Bonus Feat in the feat description.
Warrior's Focus (Ex)-At third level, a fighter in combat enters a focused mental state called the Warrior's Focus. If the Fighter is in a situation that is stressful and/or dangerous enough that he would normally be unable to "take 10" on skill checks, he may spend a Swift Action to enter the Warrior's Focus. A Fighter may end this state as a non-action to mentally rebalance himself, adding a bonus equal to 1/2 his Fighter level any single saving throw he makes. If not ended voluntarily the fighter leaves the Warrior's Focus whenever the stressful situation ends. Once ouf of the Warrior's Focus, he may not regain it for 5 rounds. At 5th level, he can reenter the Warrior's Focus after 4 rounds, after 3 rounds at 10th level, after 2 rounds at 15th level, after 1 round at 20th level.
Combat Style(2 Styles) (Ex)- At level 4, the Fighter developes two distinct fighting styles, 1 and 2. Every Fighter's combat styles will be different from another Fighter's, as they persue different paths. At every level the Fighter obtains a style feat (level 4 and every 2 levels after) the Fighter gains one feat for each of his styles. The Fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a style feat he gains, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. Previous style feats can be used to meet these requirements, but it must be from the same style. (You can not use a style 2 feat to qualify you for a feat in style 1). Additionally, the Fighter may qualify for prestige classes with style feats, however, he can only use abilities from that prestige class while using the style that contains the feat used to meet the class prerequisite.
At any given time, the Fighter will be using one, and only one, of his combat styles. The Fighter may never have feats from two different combat styles at the same time. The Fighter may switch between combat styles as a move action.
Combat Styles Chart
Spoiler
Feats are represented by the number of the level they are gained at.
Code:All Styles 1 | 2 Style 1 ^ Style 2 / \ 4 4 | | 6 6 | | 8 8
Learning Ease (Ex)- At 5th level, the Fighter's training shows itself, and his dedication allows him to gain access to abilities that would normally be beyond the scope of one with his attributes. The Fighter chooses one ability score, and adds one half of his Fighter level to that ability score for the purpose of qualifying for feats. Additionally, he uses this higher effective ability score when determining his skill bonus.
The Fighter's ease of learning new tactics and tricks makes him adaptable. With a day of rigorous training, he may exchange any feat he has gained as a Fighter Bonus Feat, or Style Feat. Many Fighters take advantage of this to finely tune their combat styles to meet any foreseeable adversary.
At 10th level, the Fighter may choose another ability score, and add one fourth of his Fighter level to that ability score for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
Stances-At 5th level, and every 6 levels therafter (11th and 17th), the Fighter gains a Stance he may take. He may choose either from the list of Fighter Stances, or from any of the Martial Adept Disciplines. If he choses a Martial Adept discipline, normal restrictions of initiator level and any other prerequisites still apply. He is considered to have a full initiator level for the Fighter specific stances, but is still considered 1/2 his level for any other Discipline.
Warrior's Focus Special Ability - At 7th, 9th, 13th, 15th, and 19th level, the Fighter gains a Warrior's Focus Special Ability. These special abilities allow the Fighter to use his Warrior's Focus state in new ways, described in the abilities below.
All Warrior's Focus abilities have two parts. A focus benefit, and an expend benefit. The Fighter gains access to all focus benefits from all warrior's focus abilities that he has while under the effects of his warrior's focus. The expend part of the abilities are gained only when the Fighter expends his warrior's focus to gain use of that ability. Expending combat focus takes a swift action unless otherwise noted in the power.
Style Fluidity(Ex) - At 9th level, the Fighter's ability to shift between his combat styles improves, allowing him to switch between styles as a swift action rather than a move action. The Fighter may still switch styles as a Move Action if he wishes.
Combat Style Mastery(4 Styles) (Ex)- At level 10, the Fighter's styles become more distinct, each one diverging into two more separate styles: 1a, 1b, 2a, and 2b. At 10th level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the Fighter gains a bonus feat for each of his four Combat Styles. Each of these styles is considered to be a part of the related style. (Style1 is considered to be a part of both Style1a and Style1b for all purposes. Style2 is considered to be a part of both Style2a and Style2b for all purposes) For Clarity, the previous table has been extended to show this.
The same restrictions here apply that applied to having two combat styles. The Fighter can only use feats from the same style as prerequisites for future feats. If any feats from the styles are used to qualify for a prestige class, the Fighter must be in the style with the prerequisite feat to use any class abilities from that class.
Combat Styles Chart
Spoiler
Feats are represented by the level they are gained at.
Code:All Styles 1 | 2 Style 1 / \ Style 2 / \ 4 4 | | 6 6 | | 8 8 /| |\ / | | \ 10 10 10 10 Style 1a | | | | Style 2b 12 12 12 12 | | | | 14 14 14 14 | | | | 16 16 16 16 | | | | 18 18 18 18 | | | | 20 20 20 20 | | Style 1b Style 2a
Greater Style Fluidity(Ex)- At 17th level, the Fighter's mastery of his combat styles peaks. He gains the ability to switch between styles as a free action on his turn, and may choose to change it as an immediate action otherwise.
Fighter Stances
SpoilerAir Parry
Fighter (Stance)
Level: Fighter2
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
While it is active, you can deflect any missile fire directed at him, or passing through his threatened space, by making an attack roll opposing the roll of the missile. You have a stacking -5 penalty to deflect a missile per missile deflected this round. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected.
Arrow Mind
Level: Fighter2
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
While this stance is in effect, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity for using ranged weapons. In addition, you are considered to threaten your normal area (5 ft if you're small or medium, 10 ft if large), and may make attacks as normal against enemies provoking within that area with your ranged weapon.
Perfect Reflexes
Level: Fighter4
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
While in this stance, the fighter may make a number of extra attacks of opportunity per round equal to his initiator level.
Peerless Sniper
Level: Fighter4
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
While in this stance, all penalties for Range Increments are halved, as are spot penalties for distance. Additionally, you may fire any ranged weapon 5 increments further than normal. Additionally, you are able to find the weak points in most objects. When use a ranged weapon against an object, you may ignore 2 points of hardness per initiator level of an object, and deal full damage even if you're using a piercing weapon.
Weapon Versatility
Level: Fighter4
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
While in this stance, the fighter may apply his Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Weapon Supremacy Feats to any weapon he is proficient with
Dreadnaught Fortress
Level: Fighter6
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
With this stance the initiator becomes a true master of his surrounding terrain. As long as he maintains this stance, his reach increases as if he were one size larger. In addition, the area within his reach becomes difficult terrain for all his enemies. This ability affects all enemies the fighter is capable of reliably affecting: it even effects flying creatures and incorporeal creatures (if the fighter has a Ghost Touch weapon).
Master of Precision
Level: Fighter6
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
While in this stance, you add your dexterity to damage with all ranged weapons within one range increment, and all melee weapons held in one hand. Additionally, any time an enemy has an ability that would negate your Damage (cover, deflect arrows, Starmantle Cloak, etc) the target must make a reflex save DC10+1/2Initiator Level+Dexterity Modifier, or be affected normally.
Arcarnum Wall
Level: Fighter8
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
While using this stance, you can block any lines of effect that pass through his space or threatened space(effects can still target him directly however). Any spells blocked in this way affect the Fighter as if they were targeted at him instead. The Tactical Fighter cannot use this ability if he is unable to make attacks of opportunity.
Target to the Center
Fighter (Stance)
Level: Fighter8
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
While in this stance, every time you miss a ranged attack because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit.
In addition, you automatically know the location (the correct square) of every enemy within one range increment, provided you have spotted them at least once in the current encounter. This Stance by itself does not negate cover or concealment, including the benefits of total cover or the 50% miss chance for any target who has total concealment.
Finally, any time you attack a target who has total cover or concealment relative to you, they are caught flat-footed by your attacks.
Warrior's Focus Special AbilitiesSpoiler
Active Assault
Focus: With this ability a fighter can flawlessly place himself where he is most needed in combat. So long as he maintains his Warrior's Focus, he may take a 5-foot step as an immediate action. This is in addition to any other movement he takes during his turn, even another 5-foot step.
Expend: You may expend your focus as an immediate action to take a full move action.
Adapt to Opponent
Focus: The Fighter chooses one opponent, for each round a fighter is engaged in combat with an opponent, or observes an opponent fighting, he gains cumulative +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and AC against that opponent until the end of encounter. This bonus cannot exceed +1 per 3 fighter levels.
Expend: Double the bonus against the target for the next 3 rounds.
Blitzkrieg
Focus: The Fighter can use his ranged attacks to distract an enemy from an approaching melee attacker. While maintaining his Warrior's Focus, whenever you hit an enemy with a ranged attack, that enemy is considered flanked by you for the purpose of adjudicating your allies' melee attacks. This flanked condition lasts until either the enemy is attacked by one of your allies or until the start of your next turn, whichever comes first.
Expend: The Fighter can expend his Focus as part of an attack action, if the attack hits, the target is treated as staggered for 1d6 rounds.
Charging Assault
Benefit: While maintaining his Warrior's Focus, the Fighter can charge or run over difficult terrain, and can make up to one 90-degree turn during a charge or run action.
Expend: The Fighter can expend his focus as a free action while charging to make a full attack at the end of the charge.
Clip His Wings
Focus: The Fighter can aim his ranged weapon at a flying creature in an attempt to force it to land. This allows the Fighter to make a ranged Trip attack against any flying creatures with less than perfect maneuverability. If the attack is successful, the creature must make a Ref save instead of a Str check, with a DC equal to the attack roll. The creature receives a +4 to this save for every step his maneuverability is above Clumsy. Failure means the creature plunges downward a number of feet equal to double his speed, falling damage applied as normal.
Expend: The fighter may attempt to trip even a target with perfect maneuverability, and the target falls at 3 times their normal speed.
Climb the Mountain
Prerequisite: BAB +15
Focus: The Fighter has become especially good at grappling large opponents. While maintaining his Warrior's Focus, any creature using Crush, Snatch, or any other ability that automatically does damage to a grappled creature does not automatically damage the Fighter. Instead they must win an opposed Grapple check to do the damage. The action type for the damaging ability is unchanged. The Fighter in this state is an especially distracting opponent; any creature who grapples the Fighter while attempting to be treated as not being in a grapple with the Fighter--for instance, with the Improved Grab or Swallow Whole feats--takes a -2 penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks and weapon damage rolls so long as he continues to grapple the Fighter.
Expend: The Fighter eliminates both his and a single opponent's size modifiers in any opposed grapple checks against that opponent for the next 3 turns.
Combat Foil
Focus: An enemy attacked by the Fighter takes a -5 penalty to all concentration checks per successful attack until the start of the Fighter's next turn.
Expend: The Fighter attempts to foil an enemy's action, as an immediate action. To foil, a fighter must hit with a melee touch attack or, providing he has a ranged weapon available, ranged touch attack within the ranged weapon's first range increment. A Fighter may not foil a move or charge action that began out of range.
If the touch attack is successful, the target is entitled to either a Ref save or a Concentration check, whichever he chooses, with a DC equal to the fighter's attack roll. If the check fails, the foiled action is wasted, and any spell slots, limited ability uses, or the like used to power it are expended.
Cover Fire
Focus: While maintaining his Warrior's Focus the Fighter gains the ability to use ranged attacks to keep his foes pinned down and use cover to it's maximum advantage. Any foe the Fighter attacks with a ranged weapon this round counts the Fighter as being in cover, if the Fighter is already in cover he counts as being in improved cover, and if the fighter is already in improved cover he counts as having total cover.
Expend: The Fighter can expend his Focus to give the defensive benefits of this ability to all allies within 30' until the beginning of his next turn
Dance of the Weave
Prerequisite: BAB+19, Master of Arms
Focus: The Fighter may make an attack of opportunity to nulify a spell or spell-like ability that is targetting him. This attack of opportunity is made, rather than as a normal attack, as an opposed check. The Fighter's BAB plus his Weapon's Enhancement Bonus against the Caster's Caster Level.
Expend: The Fighter can expend his focus as a free action to reflect the attacked spell back onto the caster, as if affected by Spell Turning.
Double Weapon Master
Prerquisites: Two Weapon Mastery, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Any Double Weapon)
Focus: While maintaining his Warrior's Focus, the Fighter weilding a double weapon gains an extra attack at highest attack bonus when making an attack as a standard action.
Expend: As a standard action, make one attack with each end of your weapon against every enemy adjacent to you, at your highest base attack bonus -2.
Empty Hand Combat
Prerequisites: Improved Trip or Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: The Fighter's unarmed attacks deal damage as though he were a Monk of 1/2 his Fighter level.
Focus: The Fighter can fight more effectively while unarmed. If he has the Improved Trip feat, he can no longer be counter-tripped if he fails an unarmed Trip attempt. If he has the Improved Disarm feat and has both hands free, his unarmed strike counts as a two-handed weapon for the purposes of disarming an opponent.
Expend: Make an unarmed Trip or Disarm attempt against all opponents within reach as a standard action, with a -4 on the melee touch attack portion of the attempt.
Heavy Armor Supremacy
Prerequisites: Armor Mastery
Focus: While you are in your Warrior's Focus, you gain DR/- equal to 1/4 your fighter level.
Expend: Negate the physical damage of one hit, as if for that hit you had infinite DR for that one hit. This ability can be used as an immediate action, after the attack roll, but before damage is calculated. Energy and other nonphysical damage (stat damage, etc) are not affected, as per normal rules for DR.
Height of War
Focus: The warrior becomes immune to fear effects.
Expend: As a free action, reroll any roll you choose chooses. Use of this ability must be announced before the result of the first roll is declared.
Hold the High Ground
Focus: With this ability the fighter has become an expert at receiving and holding onto the benefits of a superior position. The fighter now receives the benefits of being on higher ground by default, and only loses them when his foe has the higher ground.
Expend: The Fighter can force an enemy into a tactically poor position. When the fighter has higher ground than his opponent, he can expend his Warrior's Focus as part of a full attack action. During this full attack, each time the fighter hits an enemy he can, in addition to doing damage, force the enemy to move 5ft, as if the fighter has successfully Bull Rushed him. The Fighter may choose to move into the space the target previously occupied. The enemy provokes attacks of opprotunity for this movement, but not from the fighter."
Light Armor Supremacy
Prerequisites: Master of Armor
Focus: While under the effects of your Warrior's Focus and wearing light armor, you gain an insight bonus to armor class equal to one fourth your Fighter Level, and increase the max dex of the armor by 1/6th of your Fighter level.
Expend: You may expend your Warrior's Focus as an immediate action to avoid a single attack, or succeed on a single reflex save.
Master of Armor
Focus: While under the effect of Warrior's Focus, your armor gains an enhancement bonus to AC equal to one fourth your Fighter Level.
Expend: Switch out points of enhancement bonus to gain armor enhancements for a number of rounds equal to your Fighter Level. Any remaining enhancement bonus remains active, even outside of your warriors focus, for the same amount of time. Reentering Warrior's Focus does not gain you an additional Enhancement bonus.
SpoilerNote that these are just enhancements available from the PHB, and the DM is encouraged to find other suitable enhancements from any suplement he uses. Particularly any enhancements that seem to denote skill more than an overtly magical effectCode:Quality Point Cost Enhancement bonus 1* Fortification, light 1 Slick / Shadow / Silent moves 0.5 each ** Spell resistance (= fighter level) 1 Slick / Shadow / Silent moves, improved 1 each Elemental resistance (per element) 1 Slick / Shadow / Silent moves, greater 2 each Elemental resistance, improved (per element) 2 Fortification, moderate 3 Spell resistance (= fighter level +5) 3 Elemental resistance, greater (per element) 4 Spell resistance (= fighter level +10) 4 Fortification, heavy 5 Spell resistance (= fighter level +13) 5
Master of Arms
Focus: While under the effect of Warrior's Focus, your weapons gain an enhancement bonus equal to one fourth your Fighter Level.
Expend: Switch out points of enhancement bonus to gain armor enhancements for a number of rounds equal to your Fighter Level. Any remaining enhancement bonus remains active, even outside of your warriors focus, for the same amount of time. Reentering Warrior's Focus does not gain you an additional Enhancement bonus.
SpoilerNote that these are just enhancements available from the PHB, and the DM is encouraged to find other suitable enhancements from any suplement he uses. Particularly any enhancements that seem to denote skill more than an overtly magical effectCode:Quality Point Cost Enhancement bonus 1* Bane 1 Defending 1 Ghost Touch 1 Keen 1 Ki Focus 1 Mighty Cleaving 1 Throwing 1 Wounding 2 Speed 3 Vorpal 5
Master of Improvisation
Benefit: A Fighter with this ability can improvise weapons quickly and easily. In addition to being able to pick up anything handy on the battlefield and immediately use it as an improvised simple weapon*, he can also, with 8 rounds of work and a successful DC 15 Craft check, gather scraps from the battlefield together to make an improvised martial weapon. This Craft DC increases by 2 points for every round taken off the preparation (minimum 1 round), and by 5 points if improvising an exotic weapon. Like improvised simple weapons, the improvised martial/exotic weapon mimics the weapon characteristics of a specific martial or exotic weapon which the Fighter chooses at the time he creates it.
Focus: While maintaining his Warrior's Focus, the Fighter gains Proficiency with his simple or martial improvised weapons, and can use them without the normal -4 penalty. If he has proficiency with a particular exotic weapon, he also gains proficiency with an exotic improvised weapon that mimics its weapon characteristics.
Expend: The Fighter throws an improvised weapon as a standard action, doing 1d6 of weapon damage per 2 Fighter levels, plus strength modifier on a successful ranged attack roll. If the weapon was an improvised martial weapon (see above), the weapon damage dealt is 1d6 per Fighter level, plus 3 times strength modifier. An improvised martial weapon thrown in this manner is unusable afterward. In either case, half the weapon damage dealt is considered precision damage, like the rogue's Sneak Attack dice, creatures immune to such damage take half damage.
Master Rider
Focus: The fighter gains the ability to drive his mount to perform better in combat as a move action. To successfully drive a mount, the Fighter must make a Ride check with a DC of 20+the mount's total Hit Dice. If the fighter has trained the animal (taught it at least one trick), he receives a +10 bonus on this skill check.
While being Driven, the mount receives the following benefits:
-temporary HP equal to the check result
-a +2 morale bonus to all saves and a 10-ft enhancement bonus to speed for every 4 ranks the Fighter has in the Handle Animal skill.
-the mount uses his own HD total or the fighter's for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant, whichever is greater.
The effects last for a number of rounds equal to 5+the animal's Con modifier, after which it is fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for 5 rounds. An animal cannot be normally be affected with a second use of this ability while Fatigued.
Expend: The Fighter can drive even a mount no matter what state it is in. After being Driven while fatigued, the animal is Exhausted (moves at half speed and takes a -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity).
Medium Armor Supremacy
Prerequisites: Master of Armor
Focus: While under the effects of Warrior's Focus and wearing medium armor, the fighter does not suffer movement penalties due to his armor, and he adds his Armor bonus to AC to touch attacks, up to a maximum equal to his Fighter Level.
Expend: As an immediate action reduce all damage taken for the rest of the round by 50%, and convert the damage from the next attack taken into subdual damage.
Reflexive Style
Focus: The fighter may opt gain the benefits of a [Fighter] feat he does not have that he qualifies for when he enters Warrior's Focus. This feat lasts for 4 rounds, or until the warrior reenters his Warrior's Focus, at which time he chooses a different feat.
Expend: The fighter may switch his combat styles, and choose a new feat feat that he may use with this combat style. A bonus feat gained in this way lasts until the end of the encounter. This may be used as an immediate action. At 17th level this power becomes a free action.
Relentless Assault
Focus: With this ability, a fighter's iterative attacks become more accurate. So long as he maintains his Warrior's Focus, the fighter's iterative attacks are made as successive -3 penalties, rather than the normal -5. This does not give the fighter any more iterative attacks than he would normally have. For example, a fighter who normally makes attacks at +17/+12/+7/+2 would now make attacks at +17/+14/+11/+8.
Expend: The fighter can end his Warrior's Focus state as part of a full attack action to make all of his iterative attacks at his highest BAB for that round. The above Fighter in this case would make attacks at +17/+17/+17/+17. Expending Warrior's Focus in this fashion is especially exhausting; the fighter's Warrior's Focus recovery time is increased by 1 round
Shield Ally:
Focus: While in the Warrior's Focus, a fighter can share his shield bonus to AC with an ally within his reach. As long as both the fighter and the ally are 5 feet away, the fighter shares shield bonus to the ally against opponent threatened by fighter. The fighter's ally does not suffer any ill affects of using a shield, such as an armor check penalty or arcane spell failure. A fighter may shield a number of allies in this manner equal to 1/4 his fighter level.
Expend: Completely take the damage from one attack against an ally the Fighter is sharing his AC with. Use of this ability must be declared after the attack hits, but before damage is rolled.
Shield Evasion
Focus: While in the Warrior's Focus, and wielding a large or tower shield, a fighter gains the evasion ability, as the Rogue special ability except it works with heavy armor. In addition, whenever a fighter makes a Reflex save to which evasion applies, he gains circumstance bonus on that save equal to his shield bonus to AC.
Expend: A Fighter may expend his Warrior's Focus as an immediate action to end one status effect currently on him.
Suppressive Fire
Focus: The Fighter can aim his attacks in an attempt to force his opponent to drop prone. As a standard action, the Fighter can target a single enemy with an attack. The enemy has a choice: to drop prone as a free action and automatically evade the attack, or remain upright and take damage as if the Fighter had landed with a critical hit. Enemies who are already prone cannot be targeted by this ability.
Expend: The Fighter unload a hail of arrows or similar ammunition over an area, forcing all combatants in the area to seek cover or take damage. To use this effect the Fighter takes a full-round action and chooses a cone-shaped area, with a range of his bow's first range increment. Until the Fighter's next turn, all creatures who end their turn in the area and don't have total cover relative to the Fighter take damage as if the Fighter had hit them with half the total number of ranged attacks he can make in a full attack (damage rolled once, on the Fighter's turn). Creatures affected by this ability are entitled to a Reflex save for half damage, DC equal to 10 plus 5 times his total number of attacks.This action uses a number of arrows equal to twice his total number of attacks.
Swashbuckling Tactics
Prerequisite: Dodge, Mobility, Elusive Target
Focus: While using a one-handed or light weapon in one hand and carrying nothing in the other, the Fighter can turn his body away from attacks, reducing his profile and openness to attack. Against the specific opponent to which the Fighter applies his Dodge feat, the Fighter also has soft cover (+4 to AC) and the equivalent of light fortification (a 25% chance of negating a critical hit or sneak attack). Unlike the normal rules for cover, this form cover does not provide the Fighter the conditions needed to Hide, but both the fortification and the soft cover stack with any magical, racial, or other similar abilities.
Expend: The Fighter can expend his focus as a swift action to put his whole weight into an all-out blitz. Until his next turn, the Fighter doubles the number of attacks made with his light or one-handed weapon against the opponent designated by his Dodge feat, but in exchange he gives up his Dex to AC against that opponent. A Fighter using this ability can receive extra attacks from the Haste spell and similar magical effects, but such attacks are not doubled by this ability. If at least half of the Fighter's attacks hit during this full attack, the target must make a Fortitude Save DC10+1/2 Fighter Level+Your Dex mod, or be dazed until the end of the Fighter's next turn.
Swift Strike
Focus: While in the Warrior's Focus, whenever a fighter uses standard action to make an attack, he can make two attacks at his highest attack bonus instead.
Expend: Take a full attack action as a standard action.
Tactical Genius
Prerequisites: BAB+11
Focus: While in the Warrior's Focus, a Fighter posessing any of the following feats can add one-half his total Fighter level as a bonus to the indicated ability: Combat Casting, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Mobility, Run (bonus to Jump checks).
Expend: The Fighter may expend his Warrior's Focus to increase this bonus to his full Fighter level for one round, and effectively increase his size category by 1 for purposes of Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Sunder, Overrun, and Tripping.
Take the High Ground
Prerequisite: Hold the High Ground
Focus: With this ability the fighter receives a +2 bonus for being on higher ground than his opponent, rather than the normal +1. This bonus increases by +1 for every additional 6 ranks the fighter has in Balance or Climb (+3 when the fighter has 12 ranks in Balance and Climb, +4 when the fighter has 18 ranks in both skills, and so on.).
Expend: You can expend your focus as a part of an standard attack, to knock the target back one square per 4 Fighter levels, you may opt to move into any of the squares they were pushed through as a part of this attack.
True Threat
Focus:: A Fighter makes himself a presence to be feared on the battlefield. While under the effects of Warrior's Focus, he invokes dread in his enemies, and all enemies within 60' lose all morale bonuses to attack or damage.
Expend: Make an intimidate check to force any single oponent within 60ft to attack him. The targeted creature must make a modified level check (adding his wisdom bonus to his HD for the check) against your intimidate check. If the creatre fails this check, it must target the Fighter exclusively, or flee for 2d6 rounds. The targetted creature may still fight intelligently, a spellcaster may target others with an area of effect spell, a melee warrior can still use a whirlwind attack, etc, however the enemy must be attacking the Fighter in some way at all times. The creature may retry its saving throw at the end of each round at the end of its turn (after moving and/or attacking the Fighter). Any creature that resists your True Threat becomes immune to it for 24 hours. Mindless and dominated creatures are unaffected by this ability.
Two Weapon Mastery
Prerequisites: Two Weapon Fighting, BAB+11
Focus: While maintaining his Warrior's Focus, the Fighter reduces his penalties from Two Weapon Fighting by 1 per 5 Fighter levels. (to a maximum of 0), and can make an offhand attack when making a standard action attack.
Expend: The Fighter may expend his Warrior's Focus as a free action after hitting a target with both of his weapons in one turn. The target is inflicted with ongoing damage equal to one hit from their mainhand weapon at the start of each turn, this effect may be ended with a fortitude saving throw, with a DC equal to 10+1/2 fighter level+the Fighter's dexterity modifier, made at the end of their turn.
New Feats
Spoiler
Master Trainer [General]
Prerequisites: Master Rider Warrior's Focus ability or Wild Empathy, Handle Animal 12 ranks, Knowledge(Nature) 5 ranks
Benefit: With this feat a character has mastered advanced training methods for animals and other unintelligent beasts. You can use the Handle Animal skill to train an animal to be tougher than normal. Unlike other training methods, this one costs significant amounts of money on expensive training aides and personal effort (in the form of XP), but can provide uniquely powerful benefits.
Added animal Hit Die are the same as the bonus hit die that animal companions receive: d8 hit die, with BAB and base save progression, feats every three hit die and all the other normal benefits. Trainers may at their discretion give their animals additional abilities, according to the table below.
Special Abilities
Spoiler*-Generally a special ability can only be taken once per animal.Code:Special Ability* Price Modifier** ------------------------------------------------------ Formidability +1 Speed +1 Devotion +1 Multiattack +1 Link +1 Evasion +1 Improved Evasion*** +1 Mettle +2 Size increase +2
See descriptions for details.
**-Add to number of extra hit die to determine total
number of hit die equivalents added to the animal.
***-Requires Evasion
Special abilities explained below.
There is an additional prerequisite: no trainer may train an animal to have more total Hit Die equivalents than their own character level minus the animal's normal Hit Die.
The DC for training an animal is 20+the total Hit Die equivalents. The cost for training an animal in this way is 2,500gp and 200XP per added Hit Die equivalent. Unlike other training methods, training an animal in this way requires effort and conditions similar to those for creating magic items. In particular, two weeks are required per hit die or hit die equivalent to be added of undivided attention, eight hours per day, as if the character were creating a magic item.
As with other uses of Handle Animal, Master Trainers can use this skill on a creature with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 that is not an animal. Training such creatures has an additional requirement of 5 ranks in Knowledge(Arcana) for non-outsider creatures or 5 ranks in Knowledge(the planes) for outsiders. In addition, the DC of any such check increases by 5, and the time, GP cost and XP cost all double. Added Hit Die are appropriate for the creature's type.
Special ability descriptions
Formidability - The animal receives a +2 to Str and Dex, and a +3 to Natural Armor. This ability can be taken once per five Hit DIe equivalents added to the animal.
Speed - The animal's base speed increases by 20ft and it gains the Run feat. If the animal already possesses the Run feat he gains the ability to run or charge through difficult terrain and can one 90-degree turn during a run or charge.
Devotion/Multiattack/Link - Per the Druid's Animal Companion rules
Evasion/Improved Evasion/Mettle - I shouldn't need to explain these.
Size increase - Per the normal rules for monster size increases.
Master Weaponsmith
Prerequisites: Focus ability: Master of Arms, Craft(Weaponsmithing, Bowmaking): one 10 ranks, the other 5 ranks
Benefit: The character's superior skill and understanding of weapons allows him to forge magic weapons and armor, even if he is not a spellcaster and does not know the proper spells. He can substitute a Craft(Weaponsmithing) check (DC 15+spell level) when making a melee weapon or a Craft(Bowmaking) check (DC 15+spell level) in place of a required spell he doesn't know or can't cast.
If the check succeeds, the character can create the weapon as if he had cast the required spell on each day of construction. If it fails, he can try again each day until the item is complete. If he comes to the end of the crafting time and he has still not successfully emulated one of the powers, he cannot complete the weapon. He does not expend the XP or GP costs for making the item; his progress is simply arrested. He cannot retry this Craft check for that spell until he gains a new level.
Master Armorsmith
Prerequisites: Focus ability: Master of Armor, Craft(Armorsmithing): 10 ranks, Craft(Leatherworking) 5 ranks
Benefit: The character's superior skill and understanding of armor allows him to forge magic armor, even if he is not a spellcaster and does not know the proper spells. He can substitute a Craft(Armorsmithing) check (DC 15+spell level) when making armor or shields in place of a required spell he doesn't know or can't cast.
If the check succeeds, the character can create the armor or shield as if he had cast the required spell on each day of construction. If it fails, he can try again each day until the item is complete. If he comes to the end of the crafting time and he has still not successfully emulated one of the powers, he cannot complete the item. He does not expend the XP or GP costs for making the item; his progress is simply arrested. He cannot retry this Craft check for that spell until he gains a new level.
Dual Focus Initiate [Combat Form] [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Combat Focus, Warrior's Focus
Benefit: Whenever you expend your Combat Focus, you can regain it after a number of rounds equal to the time it would take to regain Warrior's Focus. While you retain Combat Focus, you regain Warrior's Focus one round faster than normal (minimum 1 round recovery time).
Normal: Combat Focus can only be gained once per encounter.
Special: A Fighter can select Dual Focus as one of his bonus feats.
Dual Focus Adept [Combat Form] [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Combat Focus, Dual Focus Initiate, at least two other Combat Form feats, Warrior's Focus, at least two Warrior's Focus abilities.
Benefit: You have increased your abilities in both Combat Focus and Warrior's Focus, and have gained true flexibility with them. You can choose to expend your Combat Focus to activate one of your Warrior's Focus abilities. Alternatively, you can expend your Warrior's Focus to activate a Combat Form ability.
Normal: Combat Focus can normally only be expended to activate a Combat Form ability, and Warrior's Focus can normally only be expended to activate a Warrior's Focus ability.
Special: A Fighter can select Dual Focus as one of his bonus feats.
Dual Focus Mastery [Combat Form] [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Combat Focus, Dual Focus Initiate, Dual Focus Adept, at least three other Combat Form feats, Warrior's Focus, at least three Warrior's Focus abilities.
Benefit: You have mastered both Combat Focus and Warrior's Focus, and are able to combine the two into a greater whole. Whenever you have Combat Focus, you are treated as maintaining Warrior's Focus for the purposes of any Warrior's Focus abilities you may have. When you have Warrior's Focus, you are treated as having Combat Focus for the purpose of any Combat Form feats.
Special: A Fighter can select Dual Focus as one of his bonus feats.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Quarterstaff) [General] [Fighter]
Taken as an exotic weapon proficiency, you gain the following benefits to using a quarterstaff.
You can wield a quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon. As a two-handed weapon, it has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe. You do not gain this benefit while using the quarterstaff as a double weapon.
You can make trip attacks with the staff. Unlike most trip attempts, the opponent never receives an opportunity to trip you in return, so you never need to drop your weapon.
When using a staff you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).
Improved Learning Ease [Fighter]
Prerequisite: Fighter level 10
Benefit: You may choose one additional ability score to add one fourth of your Fighter level to for determining feat eligibility and skill bonuses
Special: This feat may be taken more than once.
Precision Strike
Prerequisites: Dex 13, BAB+2
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls. For every 2 points you subtract from your attack rolls, you gain +1d6 damage on every attack this round. The number subtracted may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.Last edited by Seerow; 2010-12-11 at 07:57 PM.
If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2010-12-03, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: A Homebrew Fighter Rebuild
A fighter fix? Is it Friday already?
D10 hit die, good fort save, cool. Skills look good. I agree that fighters should actually be reasonably good at athletic/warrior type things.
Might want to put give it something else at first and second levels - at least if you're using ToB alongside this. One bonus feat < three maneuvers and battle clarity. Also, fighters should definitely get the warblade's weapon aptitude. It's built on terrible feats, mind, but it's a cute trick.
Warrior's focus is basically useless when you first get it: it amounts to +1 to one save once per encounter. Give it something to do at 3rd level - a warrior's focus ability wouldn't be broken.
Combat Styles ... if I understand correctly, you get to choose from two sets of bonus feats, and switch between which one you're using? That's kind of cool, actually, though it doesn't alleviate many problems on its own. Learning Ease is likewise super cool, but lacks many significant immediate benefits. Still, at the same level you gain a stance, so that's a little better.
Warrior's focus abilities are pretty cool.
Combat Style Mastery is an interesting idea. Increasing feat density is a nice trick. Again, not sure it provides quite as huge a bonus as you might think, but it's still cool.
Style fluidity and greater style fluidity both seem like fun touches.
Overall, I'm not sure it's the most powerful fighter fix, but it is a pretty cool one. It probably won't measure up to ToB, but it puts the fighter solidly in Tier Four, possibly even at its upper end. Fighters still aren't the strongest class around, but they'll be reasonably effective and much more versatile.
Originally Posted by KKL
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2010-12-03, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: A Homebrew Fighter Rebuild
Are they still that common? :x Originally Posted by gkathellar
Also bear in mind like I said at the start of the post, this was a long term collaborative effort from a few years ago. It had appeared the constant forum updates ate it, but I happened across a copy on a archive site, so figured it was worth bringing back into life.
The idea was that Fighter 2 is already a pretty powerful dip, and even up until 4, the class is decent. A lot of the neater features are backloaded, or at least kick in after that standard cutoff.Might want to put give it something else at first and second levels - at least if you're using ToB alongside this. One bonus feat < three maneuvers and battle clarity. Also, fighters should definitely get the warblade's weapon aptitude. It's built on terrible feats, mind, but it's a cute trick.
The Warblade's Weapon Aptitude may be worth considering though.
That's intended. If you only go up to Fighter 3, you should get something, but nothing amazing. That said, being able to take 10 on most skills mid combat can be situationally useful.Warrior's focus is basically useless when you first get it: it amounts to +1 to one save once per encounter. Give it something to do at 3rd level - a warrior's focus ability wouldn't be broken.
Once you get into the Warrior Focus special abilities at level 7 though, that focus becomes very powerful very quickly. Take a look at the warrior's focus powers in the spoiler, check out the passive effects, and bear in mind that the warrior keeps all passive effects of each of their focus abilities until the focus is expended. The focus may be expended for either the unique ability of one of the focus powers, or for that save bonus.
Honestly after looking over some of those powers after a few years away from it, I felt it might even be too much. I'd love to have someone who's not as rusty as I am take a hard look at those powers to see how strong they are.
Yeah, you have the main idea behind combat styles. The point isn't to give more power, it's to create a lot more diversity. The Fighter by 20th level has 32 bonus feats, but only 11 active at any given time. The overall power level doesn't increase, and it's relatively hard to break, but you can go very deep into various combat styles, making it easier for the fighter to adapt to situations, as opposed to the live fighter being stuck in a specific niche.Combat Styles ... if I understand correctly, you get to choose from two sets of bonus feats, and switch between which one you're using? That's kind of cool, actually, though it doesn't alleviate many problems on its own. Learning Ease is likewise super cool, but lacks many significant immediate benefits. Still, at the same level you gain a stance, so that's a little better.
I personally think it should be at least as strong as Tome of Battle characters, and likely any fighter built will be far more versatile (which is the main point).Overall, I'm not sure it's the most powerful fighter fix, but it is a pretty cool one. It probably won't measure up to ToB, but it puts the fighter solidly in Tier Four, possibly even at its upper end. Fighters still aren't the strongest class around, but they'll be reasonably effective and much more versatile.
The biggest power gain here is the combat focus abilities and the fighter specific stances. A lot of them provide unique effects that are fairly powerful. Looking back on them now some of them seem like they may be over the top, but I may be too far removed from the D&D metagame to have a good idea of what's too strong.If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2010-12-03, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: A Homebrew Fighter Rebuild
It doesn't actually say you can take 10 on skills while focused, only that you can only initiate focus in situations where you wouldn't be able to take 10 on skills. Fix that, and level 3 should be fine as is. Originally Posted by Seerow
Originally Posted by KKL
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2010-12-03, 10:01 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: A Homebrew Fighter Rebuild
Fair enough, any commentary on the stances/powers? Originally Posted by gkathellar
Also, as an aside, you mentioned a tier. I've seen mention of that around, and I can only assume that since I stopped paying attention CharOp came up with a tier classification for power of various classes. Is there a link I can go to for the details on that?If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2010-12-03, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: A Homebrew Fighter Rebuild
Well, the tier system is only partially a measure of power, and more accurately measures versatility. Tier 1 classes can do anything - wizard, CoDZilla, artificer, et cetera. They can casually reshape the setting. Less versatility (and thusly, implied power to shape the setting) is available to lower tiers. Originally Posted by Seerow
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2010-12-03, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: A Homebrew Fighter Rebuild
Yeah I managed to find it with a little help from Google. Looking at it, I'd say this would have to fall under tier 3. I'd argue this is both more flexible and powerful than a core barbarian or rogue (the classes from that tier I'm most familiar with), by a pretty fair margin. Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth
Though I could see the argument for it being comparable to a Warmage, I think the stances and Focus abilities give it enough utility to overtake the Warmage.Last edited by Seerow; 2010-12-03 at 10:38 PM.
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2010-12-03, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: A Homebrew Fighter Rebuild
The problem is that it's limited in its capacity to do anything but fight. A Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade can do lots of things besides fight - but they're best at fighting. THAT is what T3 is. Originally Posted by Seerow
Also, depending on build, Rogue is often T3. See: UMD
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2010-12-03, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: A Homebrew Fighter Rebuild
And while it has some unique tricks, it's not capable of pulling the kind of crazy stunts that put a lot of Tier 3 classes where they are. It has 4-5 powers and a mess of bonus feats, and it can full attack with the best of them. That's basically it.
Originally Posted by KKL
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2010-12-03, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: A Homebrew Fighter Rebuild
Maybe my memory is just really bad, but what sorts of things do Martial Adepts have going on outside of combat? I don't recall Warblade having much of anything, for one. Similarly Psiwarrior's power list is almost exclusively combat abilities, and its skills aren't particularly extensive. Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth
Not that I'm particularly upset you think that even with all that added the Fighter is still underpowered. I just think it's got a lot of flexibility going for it that pushes it out of the same league as the likes of a Barbarian, Warlock, scout, etc.
And if UMD is enough to make a rogue into t3, it's not like this Fighter has to use any of his normal leveling feats on combat related stuff, he could easily afford to burn a feat for Skill Training (UMD). (Not that that is a particularly strong selling point, but the option is there if UMD is just that strong :/)If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2010-12-04, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
Really nobody wants to educate me as to what out of combat abilities a Warblade has that makes it so much better than this fighter?
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2010-12-04, 11:12 PM (ISO 8601)Barbarian in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
You might want to speed up learning ease, as it is it's almost useless at higher levels. I say this since if you want to change a feat at the bottom of the tree you'll have to go down 1 or more branches changing things out so you don't break anything (unless you're going to let them keep feats that they don't have the prereqs for, which seems like a bad idea) and then back up picking what they actually want. At later levels this could take a month maybe two, during most of which you won't have the feats you need and a lot of campaigns don't afford players that kind of down time on a regular basis.
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2010-12-04, 11:26 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
That's a fair point. The time constraint put on it was to avoid retraining an entire tree mid dungeon or something silly, but I can see where the time limit on it currently could be prohibitive. Originally Posted by Epsilon Rose
On the other hand, I don't want it to be something as crazy as "You wake up each morning and prepare your feats" a la a caster's spells. I'd also like a time difference between retraining one style vs many styles.
Perhaps something like you can retrain one style with a full day of training.
That way you can always retrain at least your latest tier easily. But if you want to change up things drastically it will take you 2-4 days (depending on how much you want to change, or if you want to change prereq feats that are used in multiple styles)
Is that speeding it up too much? Not enough? I'm not really sure what the sweet spot for this is. In my campaigns we have a tendency of having several weeks of downtime between adventures, which is where I expected this skill to be used most, with perhaps the occasional tailoring of one tree to some specific encounter you are expecting on an adventure you just started, to give you something to do while the casters are doing their scrying and research. If that's not really the norm I definitely see the need to speed up the process, I'm just not sure how much.If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2010-12-05, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
Update: Went back over some of the focus abilities, and tweaked them. Reworded the focus ability description to make it more clear how it works, and reformatted the focus abilities themselves. Made a few tweaks to the effects, some for clarity, some to boost in power, others to reduce a bit.
Tweaked a couple of stances slightly, considering adding more, as I realized that there's stances for pure defense, and for archery, but nothing really for a melee focused damage dealer. Though the Fighter could dip into initiator stances for that it would probably help to have a couple of his own. Maybe also one or two to support the duelist build.
Did not update learning ease because I'm still not sure what the sweet spot for it would be at.If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2010-12-05, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)Troll in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
Just for the heck of nitpicking, though the difference between a Warblade and a Fighter out of combat is roughly the same: Originally Posted by Seerow
First, the Warblade gets more skill points than the Fighter (read: the PHB fighter, not your redux), AND it relies on Intelligence so it gets more than 4 skill points. It also gets Balance, Diplomacy (along with Intimidate), Knowledge (history) and Knowledge (local) in case you need to work with something outside of battle. True, it's not compared to your Fighter, albeit in that case it does get Diplomacy so you can attempt diplomancy with the Warblade; in either case, they still get the same amount of skill points (though the Warblade still has the Int benefits that allow getting slightly more skill points than your Fighter).
Then there's Iron Heart Surge, Iron Heart Endurance and Sudden Leap. Oh, and White Raven Tactics (though I personally debate on the nature of the boost when used on self). Iron Heart Surge allows you to recover from a spell, effect or condition that affects you, but it doesn't specify which kind so you can effectively dispel Antimagic Field's effects on you, or questionably attempt to remove stuff like stunning, paralysis or petrifaction; some claim unconsciousness as well (but again, questionable). Iron Heart Endurance is basically a self-heal tactic that allows you to recover twice your level (doesn't say Initiator Level, but it seems to be your character level) while having less than full normal hit points, and since you can use maneuvers out of combat, it's effective to remove some of your wounds outside of battle (or at least every 5 minutes, or a few rounds with Adaptive Style). Sudden Leap is simple; do a Jump check as a swift action and literally move the distance determined by the check (so if you roll a 20, you can move 20 feet; doesn't say you can stop, but it says you can move), so it's a swift action movement based on your Jump check. WRT works better in battle, but if you have a non-combat encounter with initiative it still works (say, assume you're doing a race or something, and the DM declares you to roll initiative); in that case, Moment of Alacrity works as well. Hunter's Sense allows you to gain the scent ability (good for tracking, though you don't get Survival as a class skill). Hearing the Air grants a +5 bonus on Listen checks and blindsense up to 30 ft. Absolute Steel grants you a +10 ft. enhancement bonus to your speed, which works at any time. Mountain Hammer and the "[Old] Mountain Hammer" line works not only to deal damage to enemies with damage reduction, but also to objects as well (ignores hardness). Order Forged from Chaos grants everyone another move action, but that's harder to work with.
Now, aside from the first paragraph, all of the others are maneuvers (and maneuvers that the Warblade can take without trouble, unlike the PHB fighter or just about any non-adept martial character can. Some are questionable, and some are clever uses of the maneuvers outside of combat (but that are clearly meant to be used for combat). And, of course, the idea is not to mention why having all of those are better than your redux of Fighter. However, it's mostly to answer part of your question: what out-of-combat abilities the Warblade has, regardless of whether they're better or not than the Fighter's ones. At best, they're slightly more diverse (scent, blindsense, various boosts to movement, minor healing) but not necessarily more powerful. That I leave to the consideration of others; do recall, as well, that you can decide to get martial scrolls and magic items with those abilities in case you need to use them but not learn them, albeit the idea is to work without magic items (or that everyone has the same accessibility, hence no one has an advantage over the other). But you can get an idea of where the Warblade stands in comparison to the PHB Fighter (at least one without ACFs, most specifically Dungeon Crasher).
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On Lawful Good:
T.G. Oskar profile by Specter. Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc
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2010-12-05, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
Thanks for the reply T.G. Oskar.
I understand the Warblade has more skillpoints than the PHB fighter and a lot more versatility than it. That was never the question, though it was nice to have all of that elaborated.
Having a reason to stack int is a good reason as to why Warblade has a better skill selection. I can also see the argument for Warblade having a better skill list (though Diplomacy I think is the only major one Warblade has this fighter doesn't). Actually, just noticed I don't have Bluff on this Fighter, I think I need to fix that given Bluff has occasional combat uses.
As to the rest, it was very informative. Like I may have mentioned I'm pretty rusty, for the last few years I've played mostly 4e and SR4, and just within the last few weeks started getting into this again, considering starting up a new campaign, and decided to go hunting for this (like I said, most of it was done before 4e hit, a bit over 3 years ago on the wotc forums). As such there's a lot of things from the current metagame and where it evolved that don't quite make sense to me yet, and other things I've just flat forgot. Don't take me as being defensive when I question things, I'm just trying to see where you all are coming from.
That said, the Fighter does have relatively easy access to most of those same maneuvers. He gets it later than the Warblade for sure, but as long as they are 5th (6th?) level or less, he gets them by level 20. He has the feats he can burn on it if he wants to, and can get them as style feats if he thinks they're situational enough he won't want them all the time. With 4 styles, I don't think it would be unusual to see someone dedicate at least one to utility feats that most people might avoid.
Also, the Combat Focus ability Reflexive Style lets him say "I have that feat" pretty much any time. So even if he didn't want to burn one of his feats to pick up the maneuver, when the situation came up that he needed that extra bit of healing, or that awesome jump check, next time he enters combat focus, he could decide he has that maneuver, and use it, though he can only do that particular trick in combat or some other stressful situation (the requisite to gain combat focus or warrior's focus).
Also, I've done more reading on the tier system, specifically finding the "Why each class is the tier it is" topic. What I found interesting is out of combat utility wasn't necessarily required, or even commonly mentioned in tier3.
Warblade for example is described as tier3 because:
Also tier3 is described as:A note on the Warblade: Warblades are tier 3 only because 9th level spells are better than the rule books and not because the monster manuals are packed full of monsters that can kill them. Being the horseman War is great and all, but it will always be second best to a god. -SorO_Lost
Cons: They don't have ranged attacks and always have to use mithral as their armor's material if they want to use full-plate. That's it. -SorO_Lost
Pros: Warblades are simply the best melee class ever.
While tier4 is described as:Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.
Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.
Given the huge flexibility inherent to this Fighter rework, I can't see it fitting under tier 4 at all. The defining point of tier4 is that it has one area of expertise and everything else it's useless at. Look at this fighter! It can swap from melee to range combat on the drop of a hat and lose nothing, it has a trick for every situation, it can decide "I have that maneuver from the warblade for this encounter". Between the various styles and warrior focus abilities, I find it hard to imagine a Fighter being left out in the cold unable to do anything shy of something that ONLY a full caster can handle. Even then it has its own unique tricks it brings to the table ("Sorry you can't cast through the space I am occupying. So sorry").
The Fighter may not be the best in social situations, but you don't expect him to be. I'm considering maybe having some class features key off Wisdom though, turning that into a secondary or tertiary stat, giving the Fighter better Spot/Listen, Sense Motive, and helping out his Will Save some, making him more useful out of combat, even with a minor niche in a social situation. Do you feel that would help at all, or would doing so end up being a waste of time?
Like I said before, the idea is to have it ultimately balanced against the Martial Adepts, without being a full on martial adept himself. He dabbles in it for stances, though Fighter Stances are a fair bit stronger than the initiator stances, but for maneuvers he has to spend his feats on it, and is restricted to lower level ones. In exchange he has a relatively unique resource (the combat focus), and a lot more flexibility in what he is capable of doing. If the initiators are still ahead with everything added, I'd like some suggestions on what sort of utility would bring the Fighter up to par. If after looking harder at some of the powers you think some are over the top, please point them out.If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2010-12-05, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)Halfling in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
I like the Idea of a more versatile fighter, perhaps one who pelts enemies with arrows, then squishes enemies with a hammer. It would allow for a solid class to be a great deal more fun to play! (My players avoid fighters because they find it boring)
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2010-12-05, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
Well recommend they take a look at this then. Originally Posted by MrTytronico
Also, for pelting an enemy with arrows, is this epic enough?
Focus: The Fighter can aim his attacks in an attempt to force his opponent to drop prone. As a standard action, the Fighter can target a single enemy with an attack. The enemy has a choice: to drop prone as a free action and automatically evade the attack, or remain upright and take damage as if the Fighter had landed with a critical hit. Enemies who are already prone cannot be targeted by this ability.
Expend: The Fighter unload a hail of arrows or similar ammunition over an area, forcing all combatants in the area to seek cover or take damage. To use this effect the Fighter takes a full-round action and chooses a cone-shaped area, with a range of his bow's first range increment. Until the Fighter's next turn, all creatures who end their turn in the area and don't have total cover relative to the Fighter take damage as if the Fighter had hit them with half the total number of ranged attacks he can make in a full attack (damage rolled once, on the Fighter's turn). Creatures affected by this ability are entitled to a Reflex save for half damage, DC equal to 10 plus 5 times his total number of attacks.This action uses a number of arrows equal to twice his total number of attacks.If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2010-12-05, 11:10 PM (ISO 8601)Troll in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
Oh, that's not the game and how it has evolved. IHS and WRT are old tricks, and what else I mentioned was just me skipping over the ToB book for around 15 minutes, getting all the stuff that Warblades can use out of battle. Plus the extra skill points and the extra skills over the PHB Fighter. But the Warblade is definitely combat-geared; the only reason it's not Tier 2 is because it can't pull off stuff like a Sorcerer or psionic character could (basically, have utility spells that can be used and spammed several times per day to do three or four things, so you're looking at casters whom are on their terrain when choosing "Swiss Army"-knife spells), but not Tier 4 because while it can do one thing very well, it can dabble in others (out of combat utility and allowing to choose maneuvers that you wouldn't otherwise choose as a feat, such as Dual Strike or Whirlwind Attack or Spring Attack) with little difficulty. Originally Posted by Seerow
Excuses to Jaron, but the Tier system is pretty subjective. It seeks to provide a general guideline of what a class may do with minimal optimization at least (something between out of the box and choosing stuff that makes sense, but not deliberately going for strong tricks). However, there are points where there are discrepancies, such as Rogue being Tier 3 (IIRC) mostly because of Use Magic Device as a class skill. It is true; UMD is a pretty powerful skill because it provides the Rogue with the ability to feign spellcasting ability and to counter its deficiencies, but a Rogue without UMD isn't the specified Tier. However, it has a few things that still salvage it.Also, I've done more reading on the tier system, specifically finding the "Why each class is the tier it is" topic. What I found interesting is out of combat utility wasn't necessarily required, or even commonly mentioned in tier3.
[..]
Given the huge flexibility inherent to this Fighter rework, I can't see it fitting under tier 4 at all. The defining point of tier4 is that it has one area of expertise and everything else it's useless at. Look at this fighter! It can swap from melee to range combat on the drop of a hat and lose nothing, it has a trick for every situation, it can decide "I have that maneuver from the warblade for this encounter". Between the various styles and warrior focus abilities, I find it hard to imagine a Fighter being left out in the cold unable to do anything shy of something that ONLY a full caster can handle. Even then it has its own unique tricks it brings to the table ("Sorry you can't cast through the space I am occupying. So sorry").
One of those discrepancies is that, to reach Tier 3, you must have some sort of "spellcasting" method that, while not true spellcasting, it can do stuff with little effort. It also should be as potent as that of a Bard; if it's as potent as that of a Paladin or Ranger, then it's not worthy of Tier 3. However, it's quite difficult to pin down the actual Tier of a homebrewed class because of how to measure non-existing mechanics. Another big trouble to homebrew is that Warblade is often considered a stealth fix to Fighter because of what brings into the game, something that not even the best of Fighter ACFs (in this case, Dungeon Crasher) can counteract. This means that, whenever you hear the "Fighter" being reworked, usually you tend to compare it to the Warblade, and the result is usually binary: it's not as powerful as the Warblade and its tricks, or it's too similar to the Warblade and hence just an expy that tries to be a Warblade without using maneuvers.
Personally, I'm on the band that Warblade really does outclass the PHB Fighter, though I differ on whether the Swordsage really replaces the Monk (or Ninja) and vehemently oppose that the Crusader is a refluffed, improved Paladin. As for why I haven't made any other comment towards your build; I was about to play with a very, very similar take on your class, except that it had maneuvers and kept the idea of the combat styles (but instead of four variants, it allowed only two variants). Basically, it made for a good warrior class, but the biggest hurdle I could find is that, aside from well-established feat chains, it's really hard to work combat styles. For example: the idea was to make a Dragoon-like character (actual Dragoon, aka light mounted infantry) which used spears andfirearmsenchanted crossbows. The idea was that I could shift from using a spear to use a firearm, and the feat and maneuver choices would deal with setting my attack styles while having the regular feat choices determine my defensive styles, not to mention general mounting capabilities (to always fight mounted). It was quite hard to find proper feats (considering most of the small bonuses to feats were eliminated from the game), making it hard to define a combat style and maneuvers to fit that in. Mostly, the thing was that while it was rather easy to deal with the spear style (eventually get into charging maneuvers and tactics), dealing with the enchanted crossbow side was harder when you missed stuff like Point Blank Shot and couldn't get access to Rapid Shot. It was also a rare concept (using Disguise, Bluff and other social skills to act as a spy), but it really pushed the limits of what I could do with the class.
Looking at the Fighter remake, I understand where that idea was taken from, and I find that it may be hard to justify four differing combat styles (it's already difficult to justify two) unless you go for the basics (Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Two-Weapon Fighting, Archery) which may have enough feats to fill the list. I did a good attempt to work with a 5th level character using that derived work, and it would have been an interesting character (the game never progressed, though), but if it's already hard to work on builds using the existing books, it's even harder to work with new tactics that look, act and behave like maneuvers and stances but that definitely aren't. Essentially, I find the Warblade suits the needs of the master of combat, and I find it hard to replace that with another class; by no means take it as a bad thing, it's just that IMO the Warblade was quite well constructed (though, I find it could get something more; the bonus feats aren't the best thing there).
But, if you need some advice, IMO: 2 combat styles, more bonus feats and the ability to shift your combat style feats with some effort is enough to make a very complex and useful Fighter. The rest is mostly finding in what else it may be useful: I'd say adding some of the Marshal stuff to be a minor buffer, notice some of the tricks of good builds to find nice debuffing tactics, and perhaps some sort of counter against magical tactics which is mostly what makes the Fighter suffer. I can't tell how much of this is implemented (cursory look at the class, at most), but in general I find that the closer and the simpler the remake, the better.
But again, that's just me.
Well, I do expect the Fighter to at least have a nice Intimidate ability and something else to do with Intimidate. I mean, Intimidate is a good way to taunt enemies (thus doing something much better than what the Goad feat does), and serves as Diplomacy in a pinch (not to mention it's bizarre why Paladins don't get intimidate, but that's stuff for another thread). Maybe providing some options for using Int, Wis and Cha alongside Strength, Constitution and Dexterity (but keeping it minor)? Or add physical scores to social situations (adding Strength to Intimidate is a good one, IMO)?The Fighter may not be the best in social situations, but you don't expect him to be. I'm considering maybe having some class features key off Wisdom though, turning that into a secondary or tertiary stat, giving the Fighter better Spot/Listen, Sense Motive, and helping out his Will Save some, making him more useful out of combat, even with a minor niche in a social situation. Do you feel that would help at all, or would doing so end up being a waste of time?Retooler of D&D 3.5 (and 5e/Next) content. See here for more.
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2010-12-05, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
Well in terms of things people value is what I was mostly referring to there. The ToB tricks likely are very old, and fall under either things I forgot, or never became aware of. (Realize I was working on this before ToB was even announced, and stopped a while after it was released, at which point I had real life intrude, and by the time things had settled down 4e was out and I was playing that since my group had swapped to it while I was gone. Towards the end we updated stances to be compatible with ToB, but that's about it). Like I said, I'm pretty rusty.Oh, that's not the game and how it has evolved.
If rogue was tier 3, it has since been downgraded to tier4.However, there are points where there are discrepancies, such as Rogue being Tier 3 (IIRC) mostly because of Use Magic Device as a class skill
I get that. I can understand the inclination to ignore Fighter fixes in light of the Warblade, but many people want something different. Particularly something more flexible.One of those discrepancies is that, to reach Tier 3, you must have some sort of "spellcasting" method that, while not true spellcasting, it can do stuff with little effort. It also should be as potent as that of a Bard; if it's as potent as that of a Paladin or Ranger, then it's not worthy of Tier 3. However, it's quite difficult to pin down the actual Tier of a homebrewed class because of how to measure non-existing mechanics. Another big trouble to homebrew is that Warblade is often considered a stealth fix to Fighter because of what brings into the game, something that not even the best of Fighter ACFs (in this case, Dungeon Crasher) can counteract. This means that, whenever you hear the "Fighter" being reworked, usually you tend to compare it to the Warblade, and the result is usually binary: it's not as powerful as the Warblade and its tricks, or it's too similar to the Warblade and hence just an expy that tries to be a Warblade without using maneuvers.
The trick I'm trying to work with is get close enough to the power of spellcasting, without being spellcasting. The warrior focus powers have some really neat effects. While I understand it's no Gate/Planar Binding, they tend to offer a fair bit more utility or bonus damage than Meteor Swarm and other similarly weak high level spells.
I think I need to go dig out my tome of battle to compare some of the effects to maneuvers, but I think they're pretty comparable. By level 20 you can be using 1-2 of these abilities per round (1 round recharge and potential synergy with combat focus) which is pretty awesome. At lower levels they give the Fighter short bursts of awesome once or twice an encounter, and at mid levels they become a hard decision, where you're no longer losing the focus for a very long time, but your focus is giving you 2-4 benefits which are all very nice to have, it's a hard thing to give up, but for many of the abilities it can be worth it.
It's interesting to read your anecdote regarding trying a fighter with styles though. One thing that stuck out at me was this though:
By this did you mean that a lot of the small bonus feats were removed from your game? If so I can understand why you'd have trouble filling up your feat tree given so many extra feats. On the other hand though, I could easily see a fighter spending enough feats for all 4 combat styles...It was quite hard to find proper feats (considering most of the small bonuses to feats were eliminated from the game), making it hard to define a combat style and maneuvers to fit that in.
However the big question is how many different combinations of feats could you get that are still considered optimal? If every fighter is using the same style setup because they can get literally everything they want, I can see your point.
I think I'll need to make a few sample characters to see if that's the case though.
Well the goal is to make him a jack of all trades. The sheer number of feats assures that, but he also has a fair bit of leeway with stances to get stances for various uses. Sure he could get all 4 of the melee oriented stances, but why not trade out one of those lower level melee stances for a mid level Archery stance? You lose little and gain a lot! Combat Focus abilities on the other hand are where I expect a little specialization to come into play. There's options there for the generalist (Weapon and Armor mastery are both awesome for anyone who will be switching weapons regularly, for example), but there's also options there that are highly specialized, and in general a bit more powerful as a result.I'd say adding some of the Marshal stuff to be a minor buffer, notice some of the tricks of good builds to find nice debuffing tactics, and perhaps some sort of counter against magical tactics which is mostly what makes the Fighter suffer. I can't tell how much of this is implemented (cursory look at the class, at most), but in general I find that the closer and the simpler the remake, the better.
There are several powers he can choose which are pretty heavily anti-caster (see: Dance of the Weave for example, though that's a high level one) as you suggest, and several that are group support, but mostly in the area of defending the group. I don't really think buffing the group with + to hit or extra attacks or whatever is the warrior's niche. That's what you want a Paladin or a Bard for.
So bonuses to skills based on physical attributes rather than encouraging use of other attributes? I suppose that is a fair bit cleaner, but outside of say Strength to Intimidate, it doesn't make much sense.Well, I do expect the Fighter to at least have a nice Intimidate ability and something else to do with Intimidate. I mean, Intimidate is a good way to taunt enemies (thus doing something much better than what the Goad feat does), and serves as Diplomacy in a pinch (not to mention it's bizarre why Paladins don't get intimidate, but that's stuff for another thread). Maybe providing some options for using Int, Wis and Cha alongside Strength, Constitution and Dexterity (but keeping it minor)? Or add physical scores to social situations (adding Strength to Intimidate is a good one, IMO)?
A tanking warrior already has a good reason to want a high intimidate with "True Threat"
Also, with the current setup of Warrior Focus, the primary place to give new class optional class features is going to be in the form of things that are usable only in combat, which is why I was leaning towards encouraging stats/skills in combat, so that out of combat they are more effective.
As an aside, bringing this back really highlights one thing to me: How useful keeping a running record of development changes and the discussion that led to it is. Just reading the first 5-6 pages of the old thread this was in brought back a lot of memories of why things developed the way they did, in a way I wouldn't have gotten just going back and looking at the class again. I really wish the web archive I found this on had kept the whole topic instead of just the first few pages then the last page. Oh well, at least now I know on any future project of my own to keep my own records of such things.If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2010-12-06, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
Current ideas on what needs to be updated:
-Find an appropriate timeframe for learning ease. Possibility: Have time scale with Fighter level. Say something like 20 hours per feat, divided by Fighter level, round up to the nearest hour. (So a level 3 fighter still takes about 2 days to retrain his feats, a high level fighter can retrain them all in about the same time)
-More combat focus ability options. Current thought: More focus on standard action expend abilities. Things like a guaranteed crit or precision damage. There's already a lot in terms of swift/immediate action abilities, and several full attack options.
-Consider: Extending duration of some of the expend powers. Giving up combat focus for a 1 turn bonus to grapple is going to result in being awesome one turn then being eaten alive the next.
-Figure out what a fighter's out of combat niche is, find some way to support it. We know he won't be the face, or the party's trap monkey, but some bonus to skills like Ride, Swim, Climb, and Intimidate couldn't hurt.
-More stance options. Need at least one more for each level of stance, to give 3 options at each stance level. Consider damage oriented stances, probably at least one with a precision damage bonus to support light fighters, and some support for dual weapons and power attackers as well.
-Consider: Some way to synergize ranged attacks and melee attacks for the Fighter. The Fighter really can't afford high dex if he's going the high armor route, which severely limits him in his ranged options. A primary range fighter can go the light weapon/twf/light armor route, a primary melee fighter should have a viable ranged option. Considering: Strength to attack rolls for thrown weapons, or encouraging wisdom as a secondary stat to make zen archery worth picking up.
To do: Make a few sample characters, see if it's possible to use all 4 combat styles in different ways.If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2010-12-06, 07:04 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
It's more capable than the core Fighter, I'll give you that, but...
Still too fragile. It needs higher resiliency.
A true warrior should be the toughest cookie in the ballpark to crack.
For starters, having to always wait 4 rounds till 10th level (and 3 till 15th) before regaining Warrior's Focus leaves it open for too long (OTOH, if you use decreasing dice, then there's a random factor that would still make one think real hard before expending, but when the time's right, there's still a chance of not paying to high an 'exposure time').
Beyond that, it needs the ability thwart off many temporary conditions others can dodge or ignore altogether to be able to remain a part of the action more often than not.
Still nowhere near enough the battlefield control fit for the icon of martial prowess.
It needs to be a lot more mobile.
Too convoluted and cumbersome to build and to maintain in-game (requires too much bookkeeping IMO).
I couldn't figure out how stances selection go according the levels.
There are other issues, but not as significant as the above.
Consider using multiple columns for different categories of features. This way you can put more features in without making the table unreadable.
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2010-12-06, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
Really? Between the ridiculous number of feats which can be spent on improving resilience, and several of the warrior focus abilities being usable for defense, I'm not sure where this comes from.Still too fragile. It needs higher resiliency.
A true warrior should be the toughest cookie in the ballpark to crack.
The main weakness left at this point is the weak Will save. Way back in the original, it had Will and Reflex upgraded to a medium save progression, but in the end that was deemed over the top due to the other options the Fighter had available.
Like I'm curious what you would consider difficult to crack? If you have any suggestions, I would be happy to consider implementing them as focus abilities, or feats.
Remember though, the core chasis of the fighter itself is meant to be pure flexibility.
I'm not a fan of having randomness introduced into a resource system (and that is effectively what the Focus is). That said, if the length is your problem I would recommend checking the Dual Focus line of feats included in the OP. It mitigates that cost a fair bit.For starters, having to always wait 4 rounds till 10th level (and 3 till 15th) before regaining Warrior's Focus leaves it open for too long (OTOH, if you use decreasing dice, then there's a random factor that would still make one think real hard before expending, but when the time's right, there's still a chance of not paying to high an 'exposure time').
Sounds again like something that could be made into a Warrior's Focus ability. Maintain focus for +x to saves, expend it to shrug off one effect that a save could end, or something like that.Beyond that, it needs the ability thwart off many temporary conditions others can dodge or ignore altogether to be able to remain a part of the action more often than not.
Did you even read the stances or warrior focus powers? Curious here. Being able to block line of effect within reach is a huge amount of control. And there's several powers that allow a lot of bonus to the normal control methods (tripping, grappling etc) that simply aren't viable by later levels. True Threat is a great debuffing ability that can also act as a taunt, and Foil is any caster's worst nightmare. Charging Assault and Active assault are both a lot of added mobility.Still nowhere near enough the battlefield control fit for the icon of martial prowess.
It needs to be a lot more mobile.
It's easier to use in game than a Wizard, or even than a Tome of Battle character.Too convoluted and cumbersome to build and to maintain in-game (requires too much bookkeeping IMO).
The biggest thing would be keeping an index card for each of your styles, to more easily keep track of what you have access to at the time, and a quick rundown of how your stats change when you swap.
I was actually surprised nobody had trouble figuring this out earlier, it's one of the more confusing things to figure out at first.I couldn't figure out how stances selection go according the levels.
Think of it this way, by 10th level, you have 4 separate feat trees you can swap between quickly, with 6 feats in each. Of these 6 feats, 2 must be shared among all trees (the two gained at level 1 and 2), 3 must be the same in two trees, and each tree has one unique feat. As you progress past 10, each tree gains one more unique feat.
For a quick non-optimized core only example:
Originally Posted by Style 1
Originally Posted by Style 2
Originally Posted by "Style 3
Like I said it's core only and really unoptimized, but it should give you an idea of how it's intended to flow. If it looks like some really important feats come too late, remember that the Fighter can retrain them given some time to himself, so at a lower level he would have already had the most important, and at a higher when the styles branch off, he retrains the more specialized feats into a specific style. After all there's no sense of having power attack in your archery tree. Originally Posted by "Style 4
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2010-12-06, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)Halfling in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
The only thing I am worried about with this build is ending up with fighters that know how to stack feats. You get the wrong, or right, feat chains lined up and its game over.
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2010-12-06, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
In what way? The fighter never has more feats at one time than he currently can, so the power gain is essentially nul, it just allows more flexibility. Originally Posted by MrTytronico
I can see where someone who picks poor feats could end up weaker, but that's always going to be the case.
edit: On an unrelated note:
-I remembered why I never ported over the Weapon Adaptability from Warblade. I initially had an intent to rewrite several feats, including the weapon focus chain, which would have made them not specific to a weapon, and instead a few weapon specific feats like the quarterstaff one listed that give a neat bonus to a specific weapon. I wound up abandoning that.
-I'm considering a stance that allows any weapon specific feats you have to apply to any weapon you pick up. Given the opportunity cost compared to the other stances, it wouldn't be too strong, but it would still be valuable for a generalist fighter. like the kind that has quick draw and is swapping between his sword and board for defense, over to a spiked chain for lockdown, then to a greatsword or lance or whatever for a huge charge damage.
-Also considering a stance that lets you throw melee weapons with a range increment 10, using strength mod to hit, and dealing damage as a normal melee hit (including allowing power attack on the hit). Does this seem worth it? Are there feats already that could do that that I'm forgetting? I know there's something like this in 4e, but not sure about 3.5.
-I was thinking about the skill problem, and think I may have a tenative solution: Learning Ease. Have its stat bonus also apply to skill checks. That way the Fighter chooses one stat he gets +10 to for skill checks, and one stat he gets +5 to for skill checks, by level 20. Essentially +5 to skills that use one stat, and +2-3 for skills keying off a different stat. Then you have to decide, do you need that bonus more for getting into high stat prereq feats, or do you need it more for skill checks? Possibly also a feat that cannot be taken as a fighter bonus feat, but requires Fighter level 10, that lets you apply learning ease to additional stats.Last edited by Seerow; 2010-12-06 at 02:43 PM.
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2010-12-06, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)Troll in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
Isn't there a Power Throw or Brutal Throw feat in Complete Adventurer that allows Strength mod to hit with thrown weapons? And there's something else (or maybe the same feat) that allows Power Attack with thrown weapons.
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2010-12-06, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
Yep, found the Brutal Throw that lets you use thrown weapons with strength, and Power Throw is basically thrown weapon power attack. It however doesn't let you throw weapons that normally can't be thrown... but there is the Thrown Weapon property, which is a +1 weapon enhancement. I can add that onto the Master of Arms list, and it fits perfectly. If a Fighter doesn't want to pick that up, or expend focus to get the thrown property, they can get their weapon enchanted with it by default. Originally Posted by Ziegander
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2010-12-06, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)Troll in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
Ah, well, in that case there's also Throw Anything in... Complete Warrior.
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2010-12-06, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)Firbolg in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
Sounds good. No need to put in a stance to replicate what can already be done, and seems like a good investment for one of the styles for the Fighter. Originally Posted by Ziegander
I also updated the Master of Arms possible enchantments list to include Throwing.Last edited by Seerow; 2010-12-06 at 03:40 PM.
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2010-12-07, 03:42 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Fighter Redux (D&D 3.5)
As much as choices are an advantage, they're also the problem. Originally Posted by Seerow
Make the wrong combinations and you're brittle as clay.
Furthermore, ridiculous number is exactly that. Given there's so little you could practically exploit out of the lot, feats are never a real argument for offsetting a class's shortcomings.
In a moment. Originally Posted by Seerow
I have some, but the way your Fighter is laid out at current, they'd be very difficult to implement. Originally Posted by Seerow
Given the poor implementation, I'm not sure how much thought was dedicated for this class by the designers and I attribute no value to their intent. Originally Posted by Seerow
Exactly, but this one has to be hardwired, not an option. Originally Posted by Seerow
Why retrain at all on a daily basis ? Originally Posted by Seerow
Why not just have more immediately and later on have the ability of using certain feats even untrained (provided you have all the prereqs) at the higher levels ?
Again - make the wrong build choices and you're basically screwed. Originally Posted by Seerow
One thing I don't get. If you know them all, why don't you have access to all of them at once ? Originally Posted by Seerow
Another issue I have with the styles is that they don't make sense.
I'll explain: take your example of style #1. If I got to level 12 and then took Combat Expertise, what did I learn that I didn't already know by 10th level (given style #2)?
Offtopic, this is one of the main reasons UMD doesn't exist In my house rules (but that's just a side note). Originally Posted by Seerow
All the Warblade's interesting built-in features are keyed for high-Int, making it automatically packed with skill points. Originally Posted by Seerow
Back to "In a moment".
As far as my experience goes, BK's Warlord is a great place to start from. It offers half decent customizability without compromising its solid infrastructure (being viable out of the box). It's quite effective mechanically, but I had a few issues with it (bonus-feats layout too constrictive, the controversial 'Shellshock', inexhaustible death effects and still not enough customizability or durability for my personal preference).
Therefore, I used BK's Warlord as a baseline for the creation of what I envision to be a worthy template for creating a warrior that is extremely flexible in build and in game and could stand as equal contributor in a group (out of the box) (it's in entry #6, if you're interested).
At a glance, my Warrior seems bursting with features all over the board, but I believe you'd agree that on one hand it can never make tier 2 and otoh never drops to tier 4 (and it doesn't have features that defy common sense, such as Weapon Aptitude or prepared maneuvers).
Now, given tier 3 is considered (rightfully so) to be the sweet spot, this is exactly where I was aiming for.
And let's not forget that warriors are meant as the 1st and primary line of defense (the kind that one has to bypass (rather than demolish) to get to the squishies), and unless you want to role an expendable meatshield, the sucker that drops just to keep the casters functional one extra moment, you really need to be able to have a decent chance of stomaching punishments that would take anyone else out of the equation.
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