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  1. - Top - End - #781
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Well, for those who are still on the facebook I suggest dumping it... He'll get an email every week telling him how many have joined/quit and well it's probably too much to expect that he'll care but you never know.

  2. - Top - End - #782
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    {{scrubbed}}
    Last edited by Mark Hall; 2012-05-04 at 10:28 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #783
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    Killer Angel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    If only a quarter of the time wasted in banning peoples, was dedicated to writing a single text update...
    Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)


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    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
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    If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
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    Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books

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  4. - Top - End - #784
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Maybe instead of noting that the complainers seem to contribute the least, he should ask why many of those people DID contribute to the OotS kickstarter and did NOT contribute to the Erfworld kickstarter?

    In my case:

    OotS Kickstarter: Good rewards (especially the PDF stories!) and a good, CORE goal - reprinting old books, many of which I still need for my collection.

    Erfworld Kickstarter: Crummy rewards at the lower levels (many were of the "Who Cares" type). A good goal in the motion comic but it's not really core to the comic. As for the "Dream website" ... it's a webcomic. What exactly is wrong with the current site? It shows the comics, it has a forum, etc.

    Plus, Erfworld had already been doing something like a kickstarter, with the monthly $3 and the toolbox. Which has seen nothing new in how long?

  5. - Top - End - #785
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    This guy is so deluded! Here's the latest exchange:

    My reply to his last e-mail:

    One other mind-blowing bit - where does your sense of entitlement to your readers' money come from? What is it that makes you so special that you can afford to blow off fans who don't pay you directly? Especially in an environment where hundreds of other webcomics are profitable without ever taking a penny in donations?

    I recommend you read up on Ryan Sohmer's discourse of webcomic professionalism. Go be professional, maybe folk wouldn't complain about your current lack.

    His reply:

    The story of Erfworld, in many ways, is about people who do great harm and evil to one another, while thinking that they are good people behaving justly.


    I haven't failed you as a reader because I cleaned off the **** you flung at my house and locked the door on you. I have failed you because you learned nothing from my story. You can't detect that you are one such person.

    Yes, you can keep on hurting Erfworld if you want. Post anywhere you want. There's a sub-Reddit called "**** No-one Cares About," which would be a great place to explain your personal butthurt over a webcomic in exact detail. You're just not allowed to do it on my channels.


    This is the last increment of my time you're allowed to waste. Further emails will be ignored, and your email address is now blocked.

  6. - Top - End - #786
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    The irony of all of this is that I never insulted him once via Facebook or the Forums. I pointed out that his lack of professional behavior costs him fans. I never even said I was going to stop reading his comic; I didn't make that determination until he went ballistic and decided the best solution was to silence the dissenters.

    It's funny how he's taken all this criticism so personally. His implosion is getting pretty amusing to watch.

  7. - Top - End - #787
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    May I get a link to this essay? You've piqued my curiosity and I'd like to read it for myself.
    Last edited by Teln; 2012-05-03 at 02:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Book of Erotic Fantasy
    Love Life of an Ooze: One ooze. Idiot hits ooze. Two oozes.
    If you use a blood-based McGuffin in a campaign with a vampire PC, plan for what will happen when said PC sticks it in his mouth.

  8. - Top - End - #788
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teln View Post
    May I get a link to this essay? You've piqued my curiosity and I'd like to read it for myself.
    It was about a page long, on the webcomic leasticoulddo.com

    My search-fu is weak but it has to be out there somewhere.

    It basically boiled down to Sohmer being fed up with webcartoonists coming up with excuse after excuse as to why they can't generate content on a schedule. If it's your career, treat it like a career.

    He didn't even claim content had to be daily, he primarily advocated setting an expectation and living up to it.

    His primary point of comparison was the syndicated newspaper guys. At the time, webcomic artists were gaining steam in pointing at their model and mocking it as obselete, whereas Sohmer pointed out that, unlike the webcomic guys, they were held to a professional standard. They didn't get sick days, they didn't get guest comics. They did what they had to do, every single day, because it was their career.

    I'm also pretty sure he called out just about everyone who clamored for donations, as well, pointing out that the comic/advertisement/merchandising model has worked for many, primarily because they project their comic professionally and regularly.


    Edit, side note -

    I don't hold folk who do some of these comics as their hobbies to the same standard. Once someone wants to make their comic their living, I often used Sohmer's professional guidelines as determining whether or not a comic was worth my time. Some have been smaller comics, others have been considered giants in their field. If a cartoonist wants to make his comic his living, you simply can't make excuses.

  9. - Top - End - #789
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by cervidal View Post
    It was about a page long, on the webcomic leasticoulddo.com

    My search-fu is weak but it has to be out there somewhere.
    I dunno about the essay; but the comic version of the rant starts here (the belittlement, though, starts earlier).

    I hope this comic means that Ryan Sohmer has bought all the books and merchandise put forward by people such as Tom Siddell or Howard Tayler, who have never missed an update or gone on hiatus.
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  10. - Top - End - #790
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    looks like the essay part is here if you want to jump in the way-back machine:
    http://forums.leasticoulddo.com/inde...pic=28388&st=0

    And as for the Kickstarters I gave to OotS as I knew what I would be getting and I knew that those items were of value to me and that, in spite of Rich's less than stellar update schedule I've never really doubted that the comic (or something directly comic related like books) was his primary concern in the OotS universe.

    Erfworld's I skipped for two reasons 1) none of the rewards or tiers were anything I really cared about and 2) I had a sneaking suspicion that what's happening now, is exactly what would happen with updates getting significantly curtailed as those ancillary projects were being worked on.

    I'm still planning to read it when it returns but I sure aint getting my hopes up long term.

  11. - Top - End - #791
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by hightower2 View Post
    looks like the essay part is here if you want to jump in the way-back machine:
    http://forums.leasticoulddo.com/inde...pic=28388&st=0
    Thanks for finding that, was exactly what I was looking for.

  12. - Top - End - #792
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Likewise! Have some thanks from me, too!
    Quote Originally Posted by Book of Erotic Fantasy
    Love Life of an Ooze: One ooze. Idiot hits ooze. Two oozes.
    If you use a blood-based McGuffin in a campaign with a vampire PC, plan for what will happen when said PC sticks it in his mouth.

  13. - Top - End - #793
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    PhantomFox's Avatar

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    While I dislike Sohmer, I must agree that Schedule Slip Kills. The further apart one can go without having to check a comic, the more likely one is to forget about it. There is a difference between a webcomic that updates weekly, and a webcomic that updates with 4 strips in one day every month.

    Now, in Rob's defense, I can see where he's coming from, even if I don't agree with it. His logic goes with a) I'm doing the best I can. b) Therefore complaining about the update schedule won't help anything. c) Such complaining only fosters even more unrest. d) So stamp it out before it grows. It starts with a faulty premise, and thus arrives at an erroneous conclusion. But it's an easy trap to fall into, and a hard one to get out of.

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  14. - Top - End - #794
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    That actually is really sad. I was under the impression I was the only one banned (being the main person arguing with him on Facebook). Indeed, he gave me a nice long winded email about how I was only the 6th person he had ever felt the need to ban, making it clear he felt I was in a class all of my own in hatred for him (which I found really funny given how it came after I had dialed it down to a reasonable discussion tone as opposed to my kneejerk cursing from when I first heard he intended to stop all updates completely). So in the course of the last day or so it's gone from me being a terrible person all on my own, to banning anyone else who felt similarly at all? That's getting kind of ridiculous.

    I wonder if everyone else who got banned was also 'fired' and told not to read anymore.
    Dear [INSERT NAME],

    You have been specially selected to receive one million dollars from a genuine Nigerian Prince! Just send us ten thousand dollars for shipping and handling.

    -John Smith

    Yeah, sounds like it's a lot more than 6 at this point. Shame because the comic was enjoyable a few times a year.

  15. - Top - End - #795
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    I am not certain anyone even feels safe posting anymore. The last thread posted was simply titled Censorship, and was deleted very very quickly, and Rob sat on the forum for pretty much the rest of the day.

    To anyone who is reading, but not posting here, it certainly isn't going to be safe to post THERE for a while, so you may as well come forward and chat here.

  16. - Top - End - #796
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    Sweetie Welf's Avatar

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gez View Post
    I dunno about the essay; but the comic version of the rant starts here (the belittlement, though, starts earlier).

    I hope this comic means that Ryan Sohmer has bought all the books and merchandise put forward by people such as Tom Siddell or Howard Tayler, who have never missed an update or gone on hiatus.
    Don't forget Dominic Deegan...

    Also, the turn erfworld has taken makes me pretty sad. I loved erfworld, and used to consider it higher than even OotS. I think I was the 3rd or 4th person to register on the erfworld.com forums and was in the Top10 of posters for quite a while. I got my paypal account specifically to register as Tool. I couldn't because I don't have a credit card and that#s required for abonement. In retrospective that saved me 100$ so far. One of the things I respected about the comic was the professionalism the creators displayed, with a thought out revenue model and some very good ideas about merchandising. (I'm an MBA, that's important to me.)

    In hindsight "hilarious" post from the comics very beginning:

    Quote Originally Posted by jami
    I can assure you all that updating regularly is foremost on our minds. We know that the success of a sequential story like the one we're going to tell depends greatly on regular updates. We're going to do our very best to get these pages out to you. We love doing them and we surely want to share.

    Rob has a pretty decent track record with Partially Clips and he's way ahead of me in terms of scripting. For my part, at one point I was updating Angry Zen Master five times a week. Of course, the art is much more detailed on Erfworld, but I've worked in the comic book industry where deadlines are life's blood so I know what it takes to get things out on time.

    Both of us work full time so the ultimate challenge for us is to get Erfworld done, maintain quality, and still get it out on time. We're up for it. If we miss an update, you can be sure we'll let you know why and when if possible
    On the banning: I assume all the nagging has annoyed Rob so much that he simply got very thin-skinned. And he got to the point where he doesn't has the means to solve the problem (lack of updates), so he cures the symptoms (complaining readers) since it's easier, and convinces himself that it's the other way round. Understandable, but wrong. A shame, I think Rob is actually a great guy.
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  17. - Top - End - #797
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Dont think there's a question of safety or fear but of pointlessness or general apathy. Nothing anyone says at any point that's stronger than the "I miss updates" post on facebook is going to have any impact and only get you booted, not worth the hassle. Only thing we've seen from erfworld at all is a "they made me do it" post, which, while reasonable on some level doesn't address the core issues many of us had or the incredibly unprofessional and public display that preceded the facebook purge.

    Also most I believe have resolved to cool off for a bit pending the return in a month. Though if that goes poorly for whatever reason, the past week or two will be tame by comparison I think.

    For the record, I only got deleted from the boards, never posted to facebook, especially glad I did not after some of his replies.

  18. - Top - End - #798
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Holy crap! This was posted about five minutes ago on the erfworld forum.

    (first piece is the end of Rob's moratorium on posting 'poison' on the boards. The rest is someone's reply)

    [[[BTW this post is locked. If it occurs to you that it might be a good idea to start a thread to discuss this post, then you may need to read it again from the top.]]]

    I have, and my conclusion is that it must be acceptable, so long as I am respectful about it, and benefits in the form of people feeling that their perspectives on Erfworld have been expressed exceed any strife that flows from it.

    I do not feel that the policy of removing 'toxic' posters who cause more trouble than they contribute in collaborative dialogue suffices to explain recent 'chainsaw moderation'. You say that posts do not get removed for being negative about Erfworld, but the threads that I remember being there earlier were characterized by critique of the (lacking) update schedule, and not so much by internal bickering.

    I understand that it is upsetting to read about support being withdrawn by long-term fans and readers. I thought some of the remarks were somewhat harshly worded, myself. It's sad, the way people commenting on popular media sometimes seem to forget that they're talking about the work of real people who might well be reading their words. However, I do not feel that aggressive moderation is a beneficial answer to this by any set of standards, and the appeal to unconventional moderation ethics in which 'fairness' is discarded in favor of effectiveness, in this instance, feels more like it is designed to throw critics off-balance than like something that really explains why recent posts needed to disappear.

    It seems to me that the real argument comes down to "I'm overworked already so don't step on my toes right now or things will just get worse" - and that argument is also more convincing, if somewhat unsympathetic. But do you really need to fight us on this? Even in purely pragmatic terms, reader sympathy is of real benefit to the comic, and being as we are real people we do deserve fairness. The goal of being fair and the goal of keeping the community forums effective are synergistic, not oppositional, and feeling like you have to discard one in favor of the other should be a warning sign. If all else fails, leaving forum moderation to someone with fewer personal feelings invested might be good for everybody.

    Don't go this road. Let us wine, if that is what we want to do right now. Reactions will get better when updates get better; your goals and our goals are aligned, in the end. These are the hungry days before the victory feast; don't take the opportunity to pick a fight with your allies now.

    With my apologies for distracting from your writing,
    Raza



    This post has been deleted. Someone is really sitting on that forum and deleting ANYTHING posted about the updates. If it's actually Rob I'm dumbfounded.

  19. - Top - End - #799
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    Seerow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Someone want to post Rob's original post about this stuff?
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  20. - Top - End - #800
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    I'm not sure if we're treading the line into External Baggage yet, but it might be a good idea to err on the safe side just to be sure. I know Rob, at least, still has an account here, even if he doesn't post anymore.
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  21. - Top - End - #801
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Someone want to post Rob's original post about this stuff?
    http://www.erfworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6225

  22. - Top - End - #802
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobb View Post
    Holy crap! This was posted about five minutes ago on the erfworld forum.

    (first piece is the end of Rob's moratorium on posting 'poison' on the boards. The rest is someone's reply)

    [[[BTW this post is locked. If it occurs to you that it might be a good idea to start a thread to discuss this post, then you may need to read it again from the top.]]]

    I have, and my conclusion is that it must be acceptable, so long as I am respectful about it, and benefits in the form of people feeling that their perspectives on Erfworld have been expressed exceed any strife that flows from it.

    I do not feel that the policy of removing 'toxic' posters who cause more trouble than they contribute in collaborative dialogue suffices to explain recent 'chainsaw moderation'. You say that posts do not get removed for being negative about Erfworld, but the threads that I remember being there earlier were characterized by critique of the (lacking) update schedule, and not so much by internal bickering.

    I understand that it is upsetting to read about support being withdrawn by long-term fans and readers. I thought some of the remarks were somewhat harshly worded, myself. It's sad, the way people commenting on popular media sometimes seem to forget that they're talking about the work of real people who might well be reading their words. However, I do not feel that aggressive moderation is a beneficial answer to this by any set of standards, and the appeal to unconventional moderation ethics in which 'fairness' is discarded in favor of effectiveness, in this instance, feels more like it is designed to throw critics off-balance than like something that really explains why recent posts needed to disappear.

    It seems to me that the real argument comes down to "I'm overworked already so don't step on my toes right now or things will just get worse" - and that argument is also more convincing, if somewhat unsympathetic. But do you really need to fight us on this? Even in purely pragmatic terms, reader sympathy is of real benefit to the comic, and being as we are real people we do deserve fairness. The goal of being fair and the goal of keeping the community forums effective are synergistic, not oppositional, and feeling like you have to discard one in favor of the other should be a warning sign. If all else fails, leaving forum moderation to someone with fewer personal feelings invested might be good for everybody.

    Don't go this road. Let us wine, if that is what we want to do right now. Reactions will get better when updates get better; your goals and our goals are aligned, in the end. These are the hungry days before the victory feast; don't take the opportunity to pick a fight with your allies now.

    With my apologies for distracting from your writing,
    Raza



    This post has been deleted. Someone is really sitting on that forum and deleting ANYTHING posted about the updates. If it's actually Rob I'm dumbfounded.
    Actually, no, it wasn't deleted: I moved it to a non-public subforum until Rob could review it and make the decision of deletion vs reinstatement himself; the thread hasn't been deleted as of this posting. And before anyone asks, yes, I am a moderator on the Erfworld.com forums.

    And you know what, feel free to spew any amount of bile at me about this.
    I seem to have the ability to misinterpret the most obvious of meanings and to completely miss the points of statements for no obvious reason. Just a warning.

  23. - Top - End - #803
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    ^
    Now THAT is a step in the right direction. Props to you for stepping up to deal with this, J.

  24. - Top - End - #804
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    My chief criticism and concern at this point is his complete catering for folk he deems worthy and his ruthlessness for those he doesn't, with this worthiness seems determined entirely by whether or not someone has paid him.

    In his exchanges with me, his Facebook posts, and now his recent forum posts, he's made repeated references to having much less tolerance for folk who haven't put in the 'effort', with 'effort' translating to dollars and cents.

    Really? Just because some of the concerned haven't opened up their pocketbook for whatever reason, they're not allowed to criticize?

  25. - Top - End - #805
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Oh, we're allowed to criticize, just not on his forum ;)
    It has a bit of a parallel to politics, he's paying attention to the people who actually vote for him and ignoring anyone who isn't in his base. Unless we start killin' his doodz.
    Me, I'm pretty freaking broke. It was a bit of a miracle I had enough to pick up that OOTS adventure game. (Which is a lot of fun but WILL kill your weekend XD)
    So I just don't go to the Erfworld forums at all. I'm no troll, nor am I particularly vitrolic in my prose, but I'd rather not post there at all rather than risk investing my efforts, time and thoughts into a medium that would simply disregard everything at the drop of a hat, without any real rules I could look to for guidance or frame a counter-argument upon.

    There is a logical fallacy that Socrates subscribed to, that every person's opinion has an equal value. That seems to be what Rob's framing his decisions on, from the text of that PM. If enough people disagree with you or don't like what you say (Or how you say it), you are banned.

    This is an appeal to the masses, but it WILL cut out all truly constructive criticism, and when the lowest common denominator figures out that the rule of the forum is mob rule, the inevitable base wars are going to result in a lot of banned people and a bad reputation for the boards. (Worse than right now, which is basically "Don't go there if you didn't donate")

  26. - Top - End - #806
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    The main concern that I have, is that I'm not sure Erfworld has grown big enough to survive this kind of drama, hitting at an especially vulnerable time in the comic's lifespan: During a hiatus from a prequel-arc, after a large amount of money has been dished out for it, and before any of the goods have been delivered.

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  27. - Top - End - #807
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I'm not sure if we're treading the line into External Baggage yet, but it might be a good idea to err on the safe side just to be sure. I know Rob, at least, still has an account here, even if he doesn't post anymore.
    I bow to the wisdom of our Eldritch Horror.
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    Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
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    Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
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    If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
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    THIS is proof that KA is amazing
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books

    Avatar removed, work in progress...

  28. - Top - End - #808
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Yeah I asked for it to be posted (or at least pm to me if that steps over the line of externalness) because I can't view anything on the erfworld forums at this point.



    Also, as to Rob respecting only people who have contributed, I have to wonder what the magical threshold is where you're considered to have paid enough to have the right to complain. I was a tool for nearly 2 years, totaling over 60 dollars paid. I never used those tool points to buy merchandise (I honestly couldn't even figure out how to do so, and after hearing the horror stories of people trying to buy books, I figured it was better to just cancel my payments and forget about it), so every dollar of that was pure profit for Rob. That's honestly more money than I've spent on any web comic, including OoTS, Commissioned, or any other number of comics I love. But apparently that doesn't qualify me as one of the customers who's good enough, since he's still giving the line "the only people complaining are those who contribute the least". So what is the magic number where you're allowed to voice your opinion without Rob lashing out, deleting what you say, and banning you? 100 dollars? 200? 1000? How many people in his entire community are considered entitled to their opinions? Less than a dozen?
    Last edited by Seerow; 2012-05-05 at 08:21 AM.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  29. - Top - End - #809
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justyn View Post
    Actually, no, it wasn't deleted: I moved it to a non-public subforum until Rob could review it and make the decision of deletion vs reinstatement himself; the thread hasn't been deleted as of this posting. And before anyone asks, yes, I am a moderator on the Erfworld.com forums.

    And you know what, feel free to spew any amount of bile at me about this.
    Alright, that's cool. I'm glad Rob isn't a part of the forum moderating. I just don't see any reason to visit the sight now that all postings about erfworld scheduling need to be pre-approved.

    Is it alright to share with us how many people have posted on erfworld since Rob's post?

    EDIT: And by 'posted on erfworld' I mean have posted on the everything else forum about erfworld itself and the recent lack of updates.
    Last edited by Bobb; 2012-05-05 at 08:43 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #810
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justyn View Post
    Actually, no, it wasn't deleted: I moved it to a non-public subforum until Rob could review it and make the decision of deletion vs reinstatement himself; the thread hasn't been deleted as of this posting. And before anyone asks, yes, I am a moderator on the Erfworld.com forums.

    And you know what, feel free to spew any amount of bile at me about this.
    *dribbles bile out of the corner of his mouth*

    Hey, you're venturing into the lion's den of disgruntled ex-posters to clarify stuff, that's bravery in itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

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