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  1. - Top - End - #1231
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    I think what we're dealing with here is Zeno's portal. It took him only a few pages to get halfway there; then a few more to get three-quarters of the way there. By 2014 Parson will be only a few fractions of an inch away, yet he still won't be able to pass through.
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    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2012-10-11 at 02:51 AM. Reason: to add the quote
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  2. - Top - End - #1232
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    It would be amusing if Parson is delayed for so long in the magic kingdom that the trap fails.
    Last edited by Poil; 2012-10-11 at 03:18 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #1233
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    It's Castle Heterodyne all over again. That damn story arc took forever as well. For different reasons, but the result is the same.
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  4. - Top - End - #1234
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Landis963 View Post
    A) I fail to see how this should have been obvious. Maybe if she'd used "they're too cheap" rather than "you're too expensive" then maybe I could understand that. Now, however, it's a blunder borne of overconfidence that almost made me see why people hated her so much (so I heard) in Book 1.

    B) Granted, but if she insults them like that, it just got upgraded from a reasonably certain probability (especially since she's one captive with one stolen dwagon, might not be considered important to an archon) to a certainty (a runaway insulted Charlescomm! How dare she! Charlie will hear about this!).
    A) Firstly, I presented an alternate view of the situation, it doesn't need to be obvious to be possible >.> In answer, Because Jillian was making note of the high probability that Haffaton was too poor to afford the Archons. This means either that the Archons charge too much, or that Haffaton is very poor. Jillian was probably making note of the latter, since it is reinforced by what she's seen of Haffaton and the former is less important to the war.

    B) The Archons worship Charlie unconditionally, and she was important enough to try to negotiate a buying price from Haffaton. He knows.
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  5. - Top - End - #1235
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    A) Firstly, I presented an alternate view of the situation, it doesn't need to be obvious to be possible >.> In answer, Because Jillian was making note of the high probability that Haffaton was too poor to afford the Archons. This means either that the Archons charge too much, or that Haffaton is very poor. Jillian was probably making note of the latter, since it is reinforced by what she's seen of Haffaton and the former is less important to the war.

    B) The Archons worship Charlie unconditionally, and she was important enough to try to negotiate a buying price from Haffaton. He knows.
    A) Noted. But Jillian specifically notes both, in a highly derogatory and flippant way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jillian
    “They’re too poor! And you guys charge way too much.”
    B) I guess. I think my point is mostly that if Jillian had played it a little more diplomatically, she could have avoided pissing them off.
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  6. - Top - End - #1236
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Landis963 View Post
    B) I guess. I think my point is mostly that if Jillian had played it a little more diplomatically, she could have avoided pissing them off.
    Jillian is not diplomatic in any way, shape or form. Never has been (remember her "Here's fine. Now's good." in response to Ansom's offer for them to eat in his tent way back at the beginning of Book 1?), probably never will be--so quite why you're expecting her to show any signs of diplomacy here is beyond me.

  7. - Top - End - #1237
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Jillian is not diplomatic in any way, shape or form. Never has been (remember her "Here's fine. Now's good." in response to Ansom's offer for them to eat in his tent way back at the beginning of Book 1?), probably never will be--so quite why you're expecting her to show any signs of diplomacy here is beyond me.
    'cause she's a fugitive in an enemy territory, and diplomacy is different from cautiousness. In this case, she adopted the latter.
    I know it's not the same thing, but Jillian knows how to keep a low profile.
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  8. - Top - End - #1238
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poil View Post
    It would be amusing if Parson is delayed for so long in the magic kingdom that the trap fails.
    Sylvia's pyromania might well save the day at this rate.

  9. - Top - End - #1239
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    It's Castle Heterodyne all over again. That damn story arc took forever as well. For different reasons, but the result is the same.
    yeah, Rob does some great work, but his pacing can be painful. It's the downside of having a story with a lot of subtlety and competing factions. I"m sure it will read much better when it is all compiled and we can read it quickly, but right now we're stuck with a weekly update schedule.

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

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    Hmm. Cloth Golems. What if they run into those Red Dwagons first? Can we say "Burn Baby Burn"?

  11. - Top - End - #1241
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
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    Hmm. Cloth Golems. What if they run into those Red Dwagons first? Can we say "Burn Baby Burn"?
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    Cloth and stuffing don't burn any better then skin and fat. Arguably in fact a cloth golem being animated solely by magic is less vulnerable to fire since they don't need to worry about blood or fluid loss.

    What I find interesting is Ace's remark about pulling "the non-dittoed items" from the corpse. Obviously he's going to want to remove any original items that were not/couuld not be duplicated, but if we take that to mean that he left the "dittoed" items behind, does that mean he ignored items for which duplicates were created, or that he ignored items that are [magically created] duplicates.

    If the former, why? The copies that Duplicately now has should vanish along with him at the end of the turn, and thus be lost to the side. If the latter, how did the original Slately end up with them, rather then the copies?
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChowGuy View Post
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    Cloth and stuffing don't burn any better then skin and fat. Arguably in fact a cloth golem being animated solely by magic is less vulnerable to fire since they don't need to worry about blood or fluid loss.
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    Burn? As in actual damage per second? Yeah, probably, but chance to ignite goes to cloth. Flesh doesn't catch fire easily that I know of (otherwise hamburgers would be a horrible fire hazard), but cloth goes up like kindling. If the reds have a breath like napalm, supplying a continually burning substance to the target, they'd balance out, but for raw fire the golems would be burning a lot longer than flesh units.
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  13. - Top - End - #1243
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    So by your thinking next time I reach into a hot oven I should use my bare hand, because my cloth oven mitt is more likely to burst into flames? Yeah... right...

    In point of fact, said oven mitt has over the years developed a number of scorched patches but remains perfectly serviceable. Had my hand developed a similar number of second and third degree burns I'd be in a world of hurt, in more ways then one.
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChowGuy View Post
    So by your thinking next time I reach into a hot oven I should use my bare hand, because my cloth oven mitt is more likely to burst into flames? Yeah... right...

    In point of fact, said oven mitt has over the years developed a number of scorched patches but remains perfectly serviceable. Had my hand developed a similar number of second and third degree burns I'd be in a world of hurt, in more ways then one.
    Ah. I see the disconnect here. You're saying cloth can be made to be fire resistant while I'm saying it isn't consistently so. Yes, it is true that with the right fabrics and processes it is possible to make something that doesn't catch fire. That is a specific case rather than a general rule, however.

    Also, there is also a difference between insulating a hand from ambient heat and not catching fire when exposed to an open flame. I'll grant that I doubt an oven mitt would fire, of course. An awful lot of effort is put into reducing the flammability of fabrics as much as possible these days.
    Last edited by Calemyr; 2012-10-19 at 02:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by M'aiq the Liar
    The Wood Elves are not made of wood and the Sea Elves are not made of water. M'aiq still wonders about the High Elves.
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Ah. I see the disconnect here. You're saying cloth can be made to be fire resistant while I'm saying it isn't consistently so. Yes, it is true that with the right fabrics and processes it is possible to make something that doesn't catch fire. That is a specific case rather than a general rule, however.
    No, the disconnect is you're saying that "fire damage" to a unit requires actual combustion/incineration of that unit. What I'm saying is that a flash burn from a open flame (like say Dragon Fire) is likely to be cause more debilitating damage to a flesh unit then to a cloth one that may see no more then minor discoloration of the surface. Fire damage that causes actual charring of a cloth unit (but still leave it largely intact and functional) will likely cause fourth degree burns (penetrating muscle) and immediate incapacitation/croaking of a flesh unit.
    Last edited by ChowGuy; 2012-10-19 at 02:27 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #1246
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChowGuy View Post
    No, the disconnect is you're saying that "fire damage" to a unit requires actual combustion/incineration of that unit. What I'm saying is that a flash burn from a open flame (like say Dragon Fire) is likely to be cause more debilitating damage to a flesh unit then to a cloth one that may see no more then minor discoloration of the surface. Fire damage that causes actual charring of a cloth unit (but still leave it largely intact and functional) will likely cause fourth degree burns (penetrating muscle) and immediate incapacitation/croaking of a flesh unit.
    Not really. I'm saying there's two elements. Straight up trauma from direct contact with flame, and continuous damage via ignition. From my first post I've agreed with your assertion on the direct contact portion, but suggested that you had neglected the ignition element and that could potentially more than make up for any difference in the prior category.

    Put another way:
    Flesh unit: Heavier damage from initial fire, does not catch fire.
    Cloth unit: Moderate damage from initial fire, may catch fire.

    Overall effect: Cloth unit is more vulnerable, depending on the flammability of the cloth and the duration and damage over time attributed to ignition.

    Addendum: Rendered moot in case of fire attacks such as napalm, where target is exposed to constantly burning material regardless of actual ignition.
    Last edited by Calemyr; 2012-10-19 at 02:44 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by M'aiq the Liar
    The Wood Elves are not made of wood and the Sea Elves are not made of water. M'aiq still wonders about the High Elves.
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    You're ignoring the fact that the point of combat is not in general to reduce an enemy to ashes, but merely to croak or incapacitate that enemy before he can do the same to you. In that sense, your "initial damage" is far more important then your "time duration" damage. If, as you appear to concede, the cloth units have a better chance of surviving the initial blast, they have a better chance of winning the battle, which makes them the correct unit of choice to lead the attack.

    Once the battle is won, any units not destroyed/croaked can regenerate at the start of the next turn. If the battle is lost, it doesn't matter how long it took to cook you.

    (Note: it's not actually clear if golems do regenerate, but we know from book 1 they can be healed by magic so it's a fair assumption.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Put another way:
    Flesh unit: Heavier damage from initial fire, does not catch fire. May be incapacitated immediately.
    Cloth unit: Moderate damage from initial fire, may catch fire and eventually be destroyed.
    (italics mine)
    ETA: er... heh... make that Boldface mine

    Overall effect: Cloth has better chance of surviving by winning battle.
    Last edited by ChowGuy; 2012-10-19 at 04:02 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #1248
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    You guys are taking about two different things. Skin is not flammable but it does burn when exposed to high heat. Like wise cloth is flammable but less easily damaged by heat. Many oven mits are insulated, just like the cloth golem's "fluff". If these clothese golems where just a thin layer like a Kite you'd have a point but they have insulation.

  19. - Top - End - #1249
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    yeah, Rob does some great work, but his pacing can be painful. It's the downside of having a story with a lot of subtlety and competing factions. I"m sure it will read much better when it is all compiled and we can read it quickly, but right now we're stuck with a weekly update schedule.
    I think that it's because he writes with the published book in mind, rather than as a webcomic (as opposed to, say, OOTS, which tries to put either a gag or a major plot development in every page because they're designed to be read at a slow rate.) Erfworld is, I think, pretty clearly meant to be read as a completed story, which just happens to be getting released as a webcomic as it gets written. This plot arc would be tense and exciting buildup if we were reading it all at once.

    (Castle Heterodyne is a good reference, because Girl Genius is the same way -- not surprising, given how it was originally a print comic.)
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2012-10-20 at 01:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Castle Heterodyne was inexcusable even without taking the intended medium into account. But that's another story. I do agree that the current issue likely stems from the comic being intended for print - in a complete book, this scene will be intense, with lots of overlapping plots and shifts... which sadly makes it tedious to read when we get one page a week.
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  21. - Top - End - #1251
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    One good thing about the long update schedule; It gives us a chance to dissect everything about the current page. For example: The battle bears, cloth golems, etc. that Ace is stacking with. I count 1 tankeroo, 2 G-RAFs, 1 or 2 LFNs (one's hidden behind a battlebear, but you get the point), and 4 battlebears. 8 (or 9) units. A stack is 8 units. What's Ace going to displace?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zap Dynamic View Post
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Landis963 View Post
    One good thing about the long update schedule; It gives us a chance to dissect everything about the current page. For example: The battle bears, cloth golems, etc. that Ace is stacking with. I count 1 tankeroo, 2 G-RAFs, 1 or 2 LFNs (one's hidden behind a battlebear, but you get the point), and 4 battlebears. 8 (or 9) units. A stack is 8 units. What's Ace going to displace?
    There isn't a hard cap of 8 units in a stack, that's just when the stack bonus stops.
    Last edited by NEO|Phyte; 2012-10-20 at 05:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    And one assumes that the bonus Ace provides will far overcome any loss of efficiency due to not splitting the stack.

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Apparently goodmintons pedobear is a fearsome beast for it to have survived the fall of the city like that...
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  25. - Top - End - #1255
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Jillian is visiting Wanda's home...

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fjolnir View Post
    Apparently goodmintons pedobear is a fearsome beast for it to have survived the fall of the city like that...
    LOL, is that what it is? Maybe it was turned.

    I'm actually enjoying Jillians solo adventure here more than the actual plot...
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    That pedobear cracks me up every time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zap Dynamic View Post
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miklus View Post
    I'm actually enjoying Jillians solo adventure here more than the actual plot...
    She fights Christmas' treants. That's a big bonus.
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    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
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  29. - Top - End - #1259
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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miklus View Post
    I'm actually enjoying Jillians solo adventure here more than the actual plot...
    I think it's because the story is able to move along much faster.

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    Default Re: Erfworld, The Thread.

    I'm starting to wonder if Jillian never actually escaped and if this is all some sort of dream induced by the glass casket...seems a bit coincidental she'd happen to bump into Goodminton of all places!

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