Newbie Caster Help

[Rapidghoul]

Hey all,
I'm pretty new here. I've read a few threads (and I've followed the comic for years), but never posted. Also, sorry if there's a better place to post this.

My house is starting a three person 3.5 campaign, and it's only my second ever game. The other guys are a tank and psion (to start), and I'm a gnome cloistered cleric. It looks like I'm eventually going cleric/wizard to mystic theurge. I know how everyone says it is underpowered, but it's largely for character / story, and I'm talking to the DM about adjusting the PrC.

I'm looking for general advice (other than "don't go MT" because I know a lot of people say that). The only other character I've ever played was a level 5 elf bard, and that whole campaign was pretty awful for numerous reasons, in game and out. Anyway, I don't have much experience.

We have free reign to any 3.5 books. I'm especially curious about which feats people would recommend. I'm looking at Practiced Spellcaster, Sacred Healing (PH2 version), metamagic feats (specifically Quicken) with Divine Metamagic, and Extra Turning, but that's just from my first look through various books.

What should I start with, and what should I look out for?

[rubycona]

Firstly, good on you for being willing to read the books involved. It's nice in new players >.>

Secondly, as a new player, there's a lot to keep track of. Study your spells! Get a feel for what you want to cast, what you want to have prepared, and what you can be ready for.

MT's are lots of fun (IMO), particularly with a little clean-up work on the DM's part, but a major issue you run into is the sheer number of spells you'll have, especially as you get up there in levels. You can get overwhelmed, so you really need to know what you've got and how to use it. You'll annoy the hell out of your fellow players if every round you've got to grab the PHB to go look up your spells again.

Good luck, and I hope you have fun!

[Keld Denar]

If you are DEADSET on going with MT, you're best bet is some sort of early entry technique. Probably the best would be Illumian (Krau + X sigil), and take Improved Sigil(Krau) (Races of Destiny), with Sanctum Spell (CArcane) being a close second. Illumian has the duel advantage of not requiring Practiced Spellcaster. Precocious Apprentice doesn't work here. Wizard1/Archivist2 or Wizard2/Archivist1 would get you cleanly into MT with the skill prereqs, and give you great Int synergy which reduces your MAD. Your Wiz and Arch spells per day are both based off Int, and your Wizard spell DCs are based off Int as well. Your Archivist DCs will be based off Wisdom, but if you use mostly buffs and non-save spells on that side, it won't matter as much.

The biggest problem with MT, is the fact that its only 10 levels long. If you enter it after 3rd level, you'll get to level 13 and run out of levels to take. This is sad. Sadly, there is no other PrC you can take that combines these two exactly like that. Thus, you are forced back into one path or the other. I suggest you continue whichever one you put the 2 levels in at the start for the most late-game power. That, or con/bribe/sleepwith your DM to allow you to extend the MT class out a few levels. Its pretty simple to extrapolate...1/2 BAB, strong will / poor fort/ref saves, d4 HD, +1/+1 spellcaster level...done.

An alternative to MT would be the Druid/Wizard Arcane Heirophant (Races of the Wild), or the Wizard/Spontaneous Ultimate Magus (CMage). UM is particularly good with Wizard/Beguiler (PHBII) for MOAR INT SYNERGY!

Questions?

[Tvtyrant]

I posted a list of things that I think people should remember when playing MT not long ago, but a few really important ones are:

1. Arcane Disciple is almost perfect for MT. You are already throwing points into Wis, and this way to get even more extra spells out of it. I would suggest looking at domains that give you Druid spells (Animal Domain is amazing for that, you get Shapechange).
2. You get Overland Flight and Magic Vestment. Magic Vestment works on clothing, so you get (crappy) armor with no failure chance and the ability to fly almost indefinitely.
3. Ranged Touch attacks rarely miss on big enemies; cast Cat's Grace on yourself and you will be hitting everything you aim at. This makes it so you don't have to worry about your low save DC's.
4. You have enough spell slots to prepare a spell for literally everything, so do so.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

MT would hardly be broken if, say, it required two levels of an arcane base casting class and two levels of a divine base casting class (without the other casting prereqs), and it went more than 10 levels. That way you're behind "only" one spell level on both sides. It's a suboptimal tradeoff, but definitely not a disastrous one.

Also, I too recommend Archivist/Wizard, or even pure Archivist. I find that Archivist is what the Wizard/Cloistered Cleric/MT should have been, as it fits the flavor pretty well.

[Maho-Tsukai]

"Your Archivist DCs will be based off Wisdom.."

Actually, this statement is incorrect. Archivist DCs are intelligence based. It's their bonus spells that are based on wisdom. However, if you take the "Academic Priest" feat at first level your bonus spells also become based on intelligence and even with the bonus spells being set to wis instead of int it's really not that big a drawback. Even LESS so for a Wiz/Archivist/MT because you will have more spells then you know what to do with anyway.

[Tvtyrant]

For Archivist/Wizard you can dump Wisdom and then use the Illumnian ability that makes your extra spells per day based off of Dex instead of other stats. Then crank dex sky high; for a point buy this means you only need Dex and Int, while the other way you need either Wis, Dex (AC, to hit, etc), and Int for the same thing (and less spells for the Archivist).

[Chilingsworth]

Just to back up what Maho-Tsukai said, from Heroes of Horror, Pg. 82:

CLASS FEATURES
The archivist’s class features all serve to further his overall
purpose, which is to seek out mystical, divine lore from
strange and forbidden sources, and to gain both understanding
and mastery thereof.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Archivists are proficient with all simple weapons and with light and medium
armor, but not with shields.
Spellcasting: An archivist casts divine spells, drawn
primarily from the cleric spell list although he can eventually
uncover, learn, and prepare noncleric divine spells spells.
Unlike clerics, archivists prepare spells from a prayerbook,
a collection of copied divine spells. To learn, prepare, or cast
a spell, an archivist must have an Intelligence score equal to
at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving
throw against an archivist’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the
archivist’s Int modifier.

[Rapidghoul]

While Archivist does look better for synergy with wizard, I think I should explain that the cleric section of my character isn't optional; like I said the much of the build is for story.
The DM has set it up so that my character is from a world that starts without arcane or psionics. The only people in this world that have any draw to magic at all are clerics with strong ties to their deities. Sometime early in the campaign, my character will gain access to arcana, but only because of his time spent as a cleric. His mission (and the mission of the rest of his order) is to study arcana (and psionics). Otherwise he couldn't cast any spells ever.

Thus, story-to-mechanics, he has to start with a few levels of cleric before anything else. He takes wizard levels (as few as the DM allows) and goes on with MT. I'll be a level 3 (cloistered) cleric by the time I meet the other characters.

It's also worth noting I have no idea how long the DM plans to run the campaign, so planning out to level 20 isn't necessary. He was also really generous in terms of rolling stats, so that's not really a concern. I'm starting with 17 int and 18 wis with my only negative stat being str due to being a gnome (and my rolls weren't as good as the psion's).

I have everything ready for starting up except his feats. Any suggestions for my level 1 and 3 choices?

Thanks for the advice so far. I'll keep it mind as I figure more out in the game.

[Keld Denar]

Thats kinda a bummer. Any chance you could go straight wizard and take Arcane Disciple (whatever domain your diety has) and just be very faithful? My high level Conjourer for an online game is an Oracle of Pelor, despite not having any actual levels of cleric. You can be devote without having levels of cleric. Heck, with the Wizard ACF in Complete Champion, you could have the full domain (granted power from the ACF, spells from Arcane Disciple). All the clericy flavor, none of the bulky levels.

Its kinda a downer that your DM is dictating your character for you. I mean, it is YOUR character.

PS: just saw your location tag. Rawk own Seattle gamers!

[Tvtyrant]

Extend for level 1, and for level 3... hmm. I would probably take maybe Quicken. You are a MT, so you afford to waste slots in return for Nova-blasting. It would also help to make up the difference between you and a straight caster long term. I would either take that or a Reserve Feat to allow infinite amounts of low powered blasting without losing spells slots. Again, this is useful because you have a crazy number of spell slots, so leaving an upper level one unused isn't going to hurt you.

Just think of your self as a swiss army knife; other classes get bigger blades to become stronger, you add more little ones. You won't be as great at killing as the big blades, but if you need to skin a doorframe you are the man to call.

[tyckspoon]

Extend for level 1, and for level 3... hmm. I would probably take maybe Quicken.

At level 3? For a character that isn't going to have level 5+ slots to Quicken things in for 7-9 levels? That does not seem like especially practical advice.. really, low levels are not a time to be investing in metamagic, and definitely not expensive ones.

Do you know how your party/DM expects healing to be handled? The Touch of Healing reserve feat (Comp. Champion) might be a good idea if they generally expect you to handle it; as long as you have a 2nd-level or higher Conjuration (Healing) spell available (which means basically whenever you still have a 2nd-level spell, because of spontaneous Cures) you can freely heal somebody up to half their max HP. Very useful for easing the pressure on your consumables/real spells if your DM or your party believes you're supposed to heal with potions and Clerical castings instead of a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

[Rapidghoul]

It's not so much dictation as how my character ends up adapting to his world. One player wanted to do an arcane tank and another wanted to be a psion. The third character had to be from a world without either, which fit my cleric character fine. The cross-class / prestige is just how the character would react and progress in the story posed to us. I'm more after a role-play than roll-play, so it's all cool to me.

Extend and Quicken (and Empower) were the metamagic feats I considered, so at least I'm not too off track.
I'm definitely going to be the healer, but it won't be my only job (otherwise I'd go Radiant Servant of Pelor). We have a warforged tank and a psion in the party too, meaning I only have two members to heal, one of which doesn't heal all that well. I don't know how the DM feels about item creation or consumables, so Touch of Healing might be good for level 3.

Still leaves first level open though. What about Extra Turning (to fuel Divine Metamagic / alternate turn attempts)? Or is Divine Metamagic not really advised?
Lastly, should I reserve 6 / 9 for Practiced Spellcaster?

And yeah, I'm used to being the swiss-army-bard of a party. We had a fighter, ranger, druid, rogue, and wizard in my only previous campaign. I still managed to be really effective through use of bard songs, MacGyver-casting, and working skills strategically. This character is built so I can play somewhat similarly, just in a different context, with an experienced DM, and without the uncooperative players (I have a predisposition against rogues and druids after that last campaign). One of the biggest reasons I don't mind MT is that I'm used to having a bard's spell list.

[Rapidghoul]

And I don't think I've mentioned before: I'm a Neutral Good Gnome Cleric of Fharlanghn with Travel, Celerity, and Knowledge (from cloistered) Domains. When I hit wizard levels I'll probably take Illusion as the specialized school for classic gnome-y-ness, but not sure which schools I'll get rid of.

[Tvtyrant]

At level 3? For a character that isn't going to have level 5+ slots to Quicken things in for 7-9 levels? That does not seem like especially practical advice.. really, low levels are not a time to be investing in metamagic, and definitely not expensive ones.

Except he can't take Arcane Disciple or any arcane ones till later, so that speaks for a lot of his later feats. Honestly any feat that actually helps at low levels that isn't like a Reserve Feat is going to become pointless later. You get very few feats; you should be using all of them for the most powerful thing you can get IMO.

And I agree that reserve stuff is good (don't own the books so I couldn't tell you how good). As for Practiced Spellcaster; the question is what types of spells are you going to be casting. If you are buffing it is pointless, or if your blasting with touch spells, or if your healing. Its really only needed for DC's, and any party member with caster levels is going to be better at that then you. Besides, two feats seems rather intensive when you could be using those feats to get other spells or metamagic IMO.

[dextercorvia]

And I don't think I've mentioned before: I'm a Neutral Good Gnome Cleric of Fharlanghn with Travel, Celerity, and Knowledge (from cloistered) Domains. When I hit wizard levels I'll probably take Illusion as the specialized school for classic gnome-y-ness, but not sure which schools I'll get rid of.

If you are playing clerics RAW, then your alignment is too far from your deity's. Also, I rather prefer Time to Celerity -- they are similar, but I think a caster benefits more from Improved Initiative than +10 ft move, and Time gets Haste and Foresight a level earlier. You will probably want some method of getting spontaneous casting from your domains. There is an ACF in PHBII, and a feat in CDiv.

[Rapidghoul]

If you are playing clerics RAW, then your alignment is too far from your deity's.

I'm Neutral Good, the diety is Neutral. I'm one step away, which is allowed, isn't it? Am I missing something?

Also, I rather prefer Time to Celerity -- they are similar, but I think a caster benefits more from Improved Initiative than +10 ft move, and Time gets Haste and Foresight a level earlier.

I would totally take Time over Celerity, but I haven't seen that Fharlanghn gets Time.

[dextercorvia]

I'm Neutral Good, the diety is Neutral. I'm one step away, which is allowed, isn't it? Am I missing something?


I would totally take Time over Celerity, but I haven't seen that Fharlanghn gets Time.

Maybe I'm mistaken, I thought he was CN... I could be misremembering. Time is originally a FR domain, though it was reprinted in the SpC. A convincing argument could be made that it would be as appropriate as Celerity to be in his portfolio.

[Tvtyrant]

And I don't think I've mentioned before: I'm a Neutral Good Gnome Cleric of Fharlanghn with Travel, Celerity, and Knowledge (from cloistered) Domains. When I hit wizard levels I'll probably take Illusion as the specialized school for classic gnome-y-ness, but not sure which schools I'll get rid of.

Well I would advise dumping Enchantment and Abjuration; your Cleric spells take care of Abjuration and Enchantment is a very small school. And if you get rid of Evocation you lose your ranged touch attacks.

[dextercorvia]

Well I would advise dumping Enchantment and Abjuration; your Cleric spells take care of Abjuration and Enchantment is a very small school. And if you get rid of Evocation you lose your ranged touch attacks.

Which Evocations are RTA's? I can't think of any except Scorching Ray and Meteor Swarm.

[Rapidghoul]

Maybe I'm mistaken, I thought he was CN... I could be misremembering. Time is originally a FR domain, though it was reprinted in the SpC. A convincing argument could be made that it would be as appropriate as Celerity to be in his portfolio.

I'll ask my DM about it. Time would be awesome. I already had to push for cloistered cleric though, so I don't want to push too much.

.As for Practiced Spellcaster; the question is what types of spells are you going to be casting.

Good point. I'm going to see how the character develops. I probably won't bother.

Well I would advise dumping Enchantment and Abjuration; your Cleric spells take care of Abjuration and Enchantment is a very small school. And if you get rid of Evocation you lose your ranged touch attacks.

Another good point. I'll keep that in mind, but again it will also depend on character development.

Right now I think I'm going to take Extend Spell at creation and Touch of Healing at 3. I might switch one to Extra Turning / Reach Spell / Sacred Healing (PH2).

[Tvtyrant]

Which Evocations are RTA's? I can't think of any except Scorching Ray and Meteor Swarm.

Ray of Frost and Polar Ray in core, but out of core you get the Orb spells, which are magical, and Spellwarp Sniper which can turn a lot of your spells into rays. Seriously, the orbs are amazing. And the only RTA's outside of evocation that I know of are Disintegrate and MKD. The first of those is really amazing against undead but not normal enemies (which the Cleric spells deal with anyway) and the second is a very bad spell to use often.

[Keld Denar]

As I mentioned, any Illumian with the Krau sigil will have the Practiced Spellcaster thing covered. It gives +1 CL per sigil (max 2) to all spellcasting classes you have, to a maximum of your HD. That means if you enter MT as a Wizard2/Cleric1 (using the feat Improved Sigil: Krau...synergy?), you'll have max CL for both sides at least until you hit 13.

OP, have you considered just going straight cleric instead? If you take say...the Magic and Summoning domains, or Magic and Travel, or Magic and...any other domain, you'll get a goodly portion of useful wizard spells on your class list. Then its a simple matter of taking the Spontanous Domain ACF or the Domain Spontinaity feat (PHBII and CDivine respectively) to give yourself greater access to each of the spell lists. Eventually PrC into Contemplative (CDivine) for even more domains, and even more options.

My best advice would be to keep full casting as much as possible, either arcane or divine. It'll really be worth it, you'll see.

[Fouredged Sword]

The orb spells are conjuration, not evocation. Once more the omni school beats everyone.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Also, I have a question for you....how much do you care about your cleric spell DCs? I ask because if you want to reduce the MAD that comes with being a wizard/cleric/MT then you may want to check out the academic priest feat I mentioned earlier. While it is a campaign setting specific feat it's flavor is loose enough to fit into any campaign world and I think the idea of an "academic priest" fits right in with a Cloistered Cleric from church dedicated to studying "alien" forms of magic.

What that feat dose is essentially make you an int based favored soul: Your cleric casting stat becomes intelligence for everything except DCs, which remain wisdom based. So, since your going MT this feat could REALLY help out with MAD and while your cleric DCs would be stinky your Wizard DCs would be closer to where they should be. Thus, this would be a really really really good feat to take provided you don't use your cleric casting for spells that have saves. Focus your cleric side on things like buffs(Which as you know, clerics are AWESOME at.), summoning, utility spells, spells that offer no saves, maybe even heals if you actually like that kind of thing ect.. Save offensive casting for your wizard side. If you take this feat you need only a max of 12 wisdom provided you care not for your cleric DCs, since all you need to get into MT is level 2 divine and level 2 arcane. Thus, you can pump int as much as you want, still be able to cast 9ths on both sides and have about the same DCs as a normal wizard would, meaning you can cast offensively on at least one side of your theurge.

So, if you don't mind not having offensive cleric casting, see if you can get this feat as it will be a big boost to wizard DCs and help a whole lot with MAD.

[Tvtyrant]

Touch spells core:

Cantrips:
Ray of frost (ranged)
Touch of fatigue (melee)
Acid Splash (ranged)
Level 1:
Shocking Grasp (Melee)
Ray of Enfeeblement (ranged)
Chill Touch (Melee)
Level 2:
Touch of Idiocy (melee)
Spectral Hand (Not a touch spell, but very very useful)
Ghoul Touch (melee)
Acid Arrow (ranged)
Scorching Ray (ranged)
Level 3:
Ray of Exhaustion (ranged)
Vampiric Touch (melee)
Level 6:
Disintegrate (ranged)
Level 8:
Polar Ray (ranged)
Level 9:
Meteor Swarm

[Rapidghoul]

Had our first session tonight.
I talked with the DM. He's looking into ways to lower requirements (both mechanically and story-wise) to 2 wizard, but due to lack of access to arcana and just general feelings on early cross-classing, he asked me to not take wizard at 4th level level. I agreed, since my main goal is keeping my cleric level from being too nerfed. 1 spell level from cleric and 2 from wizard still isn't great, but i'll take it over 1.5 from both. Thematically, it's fitting too.

He's also agreed to discuss tweaking the PrC a bit. I showed him Pathfinder's MT and a fixed version I found somewhere else. I also suggested something simpler like a free Practiced Spellcaster on entry and a free metamagic feat at 5 and 10 (like a wizard would get).
That's all a ways off as we only just made level 3 today, but he's thinking about it.

As for feats, I took Extend Spell and Touch of Healing. I thought about Extra Turning, and still debate which would have been better, but there it is. It's looking like I'm going to be focusing on buff spells with a secondary focus on healing, so Extend works well. He said he'd look into other feats and their place in the game (like Academic Priest and such).

[Maho-Tsukai]

Academic priest can only be taken at first level, though. So if your already in the game/have your build finished you can kiss that feat goodbye. However, if the game has not started yet and you can still tweak your build and your DM approves the feat by all means, take it. It really helps a whole lot with MAD.

[Tvtyrant]

Extra turning is only useful if you aren't turning things with it; MT doesn't increase your turning level.

[Rapidghoul]

Academic priest can only be taken at first level, though.

Woops, I missed that part of the feat. DM might be cool with me switching around if I need.

Extra turning is only useful if you aren't turning things with it; MT doesn't increase your turning level.

Well, right now all I can do is turn, but I do plan to take a Divine Metamagic or two.