Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Does This Work?

  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Does This Work?

    Greetings Playgrounders! I, a humble noob to D&D, doth so require your mastery of RAW:

    This cloak, if I read it right, gives wearers immunity to nonmagical weapons and makes all magic weapon damage reflex/half damage.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Starmantle Cloak (BOED 116): This draping black cloak turns into a
    sparkling mantle of tiny, cascading stars when worn. The cloak
    sheds light as a torch, renders the wearer impervious to nonmagical
    weapon attacks, and transforms any nonmagical
    weapon or missile that strikes the wearer into harmless light,
    destroying it.
    Contact with the starmantle does not destroy
    magic weapons or missiles, but the starmantle’s wearer is entitled
    to a DC 15 Reflex save each time he is struck by such a weapon;
    success indicates that the wearer takes only half damage from
    the attack.
    Moderate abjuration; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, starmantle;
    Price 132,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.


    I plan to abuse this item with evasion so that I never take damage from weapons again, and this appears (to my perception) perfectly RAW legal.

    But one two things bug me about it:

    First: does "nonmagical/magical weapons" in this case include natural weapons/attacks? And if so, does it include unarmed strikes as well?

    Further: It "turns any nonmagical weapon or missile that strikes the wearer into harmless light, destroying it". So, if a creature were to strike a wearer with claws or a bite attack, what would happen? Would it lose its claws? its mouth?
    What about unarmed strikes? Would swordsages/monks lose their fists and feet trying to hit this thing?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Galileo's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    I'd say it works like sundering and disarming: you can't use it against an unarmed strike. They wouldn't hit you, but their arm wouldn't be destroyed.
    Last edited by Galileo; 2010-12-10 at 09:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    And two out of three leading anthropomorphic personifications of death agree on the matter.
    Avatar by Dogmantra. Huzzah!
    Happy to be PMed for rants about stuff, lousy jokes, challenges to a duel because I impugned your honour in that restaurant last night. Look, how was I supposed to know it'd fly that far?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Morbis Meh's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    The Velvet Room
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    Well all your DM would have to do to null this cloak is have a high level wizard cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction to dispel the cloak's magic, but other than that it seems like a legit war to munchkinize your char.
    Is the proud owner of 7 cookies and 1.5 internets
    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    Benny Hill theme, firing terminal velocity zombies via portals, with your wife as backup.
    ... I'm pretty sure you win an internet. Maybe even two internets.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Past Avatars
    Szilard

    Red Wizard avvie by Kymme

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Banned
     
    BlueWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    Two things to point out:

    First, no protection against natural weapons, so don't think your rogue can just go charging into combat all willy-nilly with it. Eventually, your rogue is going to end up having to solo a were-tiger or something because of that.

    A bite is a 'Natural Weapon', not a 'Weapon'.

    Second, CustServ has previously told players that Evasion does NOT work the Starmantle cloak. Specifically, Evasion work against ATTACKS that allow for a Reflex save for half damage. In the case of the Starmantle cloak, it's not the attack that's allowing for the save, but the item.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Broken Damaged Worthless

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    1. Yes, the Starmantle Cloak really is that good.

    2. Using it with Evasion is debatable, IMO. The argument goes that Evasion only works if the attack form normally gives a save, whereas here you have a second party forcing the save, not the attack form itself. I'm not saying your reading is wrong, just that your DM has a valid line of argument if he chooses to take it. Be warned.

    3. Natural weapons are weapons, notably. See how they are "natural weapons". Depends on your DM though if the cloak affects them, the intent is pretty clear that it means manufactured weapons, but YMMV.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2010-12-10 at 09:42 PM.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Banned
     
    BlueWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    It always bugs me that people read things like 'transforms any nonmagical
    weapon or missile that strikes the wearer into harmless light,
    destroying it.' and just go off the deep end.

    Why can't people see that the cloak was intended to just effect nonmagical
    weapon or missile, like swords and arrows?

    Why do people feel the need to make stuff all powerful?

    Why would a person think: The cloak must effect natural attacks like claws too, and as written that is a disintegration effect. So anything that touches me 'as a weapon' gets disintegrated!

    And why would someone think that a single item would be so crazy over powered?

    And even more so, if your gonna make that conclusion, why not make the 'transformation into light' effect the whole creature that attacked? So anything that strikes the cloak is disintegrated?

    And why stop there, a word or thought can be a 'nonmagical
    weapon or missile'. So if someone attacks the cloak with words..poof, they are light! So if someone thinks about attacking the cloak..poof they are light too.

    What about natural disasters? Is an Earthquake an attack with a nonmagical
    weapon or missile? If so would the cloak transform the whole world in to light?

    I know it's written poorly, and Wizards has had no editors ever, but I just don't get why people have to be so crazy about this stuff.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OracleofWuffing's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    What about unarmed strikes? Would swordsages/monks lose their fists and feet trying to hit this thing?
    Well, keep in mind that an unarmed strike can be made with any part of one's body, so they can at least keep on hitting you with their foot, their shin, their knee, their upper leg, their hips, their gut, their chest, their arms, their elbows, their hands, their fingers, their necks, their heads, their beards, their eyes, their eyebrows... And, also, since they don't receive HP damage, there may not actually be a reason for them to stop doing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    Is an Earthquake an attack with a nonmagical weapon or missile?
    In which book is an Earthquake listed as a weapon? Otherwise, the only thing I can think of is if one was wielding an earthquake as an improvised weapon, in which case, provided that the Earthquake is not enchanted, yes, it'd be a nonmagical weapon.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Broken Damaged Worthless

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamer Girl View Post
    It always bugs me that people read things like 'transforms any nonmagical
    weapon or missile that strikes the wearer into harmless light,
    destroying it.' and just go off the deep end.
    Excuse me? Given that no one else (at the time of this writing; DAMN YOU WUFFING!! *shakes fist*) has posted, you are clearly responding to something I've said, so I'll respond back. 'sonly polite.

    Why would a person think: The cloak must effect natural attacks like claws too, and as written that is a disintegration effect. So anything that touches me 'as a weapon' gets disintegrated!
    No one has said that, beyond you, just now, as a sarcastic and overwrought comment. Someone has said that it does what the item says it does, which is "destroys" weaponry. That's not hard to believe or accept, right? Seeing as how that's what the text says.

    I will give my reasoning about natural weapons though, and why the debate exists that such could be affected, though they probably weren't meant to. See, D&D classifies natural weapons as WEAPONS, thus the name. Because of this, and the poor, poor wording on the Starmantle Cloak, it could be argued (and RAW is unclear as to who is right) that they are affected by the cloak's effect, unless enchanted of course, in which case the whole debate is moot.

    As for the "disintegration" effect, no, it's not a disintegration effect, since that actually means something specific in D&D. It's just a destroy effect, which is far less specific, and could be taken to mean a lot of thematic things, all of which involve the object no longer functioning.

    And why would someone think that a single item would be so crazy over powered?
    Because it's hardly the first time, or the worst offender? The Thought Bottle comes to mind. So do Drakehelms.

    And even more so, if your gonna make that conclusion, why not make the 'transformation into light' effect the whole creature that attacked? So anything that strikes the cloak is disintegrated?
    Because, by any reading, a creature=/=a weapon. A creature is a creature. A weapon is a weapon. D&D is clear about this sort of thing. Now, if a giant was to wield, say, a gnome, as a club, then the gnome is both weapon and creature, causing all sorts of sticky wickets. D&D isn't equipped to handle such corner cases, so debate and decision is required, which is where we come in.

    And why stop there, a word or thought can be a 'nonmagical
    weapon or missile'. So if someone attacks the cloak with words..poof, they are light! So if someone thinks about attacking the cloak..poof they are light too.
    Again, no, they can't be. D&D is clear that a weapon is an object used to cause hit point damage. A fireball is not a weapon, since it's not an object. This is clear in the rules.

    What about natural disasters? Is an Earthquake an attack with a nonmagical
    weapon or missile? If so would the cloak transform the whole world in to light?
    See above.

    I know it's written poorly, and Wizards has had no editors ever, but I just don't get why people have to be so crazy about this stuff.
    You and me both.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2010-12-10 at 10:11 PM.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OracleofWuffing's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Excuse me? Given that no one else (at the time of this writing; DAMN YOU WUFFING!! *shakes fist*) has posted, you are clearly responding to something I've said, so I'll respond back.


    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Now, if a giant was to wield, say, a gnome, as a club, then the gnome is both weapon and creature, causing all sorts of sticky wickets. D&D isn't equipped to handle such corner cases, so debate and decision is required, which is where we come in.
    Now, you see, I have the hamster spinning its wheels. Let's say we have two giants wielding gnomes, and both gnomes are wearing this cloak. Now, if we make a disarm attempt...
    Last edited by OracleofWuffing; 2010-12-10 at 10:19 PM.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    My obsidian tower
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    Well, keep in mind that an unarmed strike can be made with any part of one's body, so they can at least keep on hitting you with their foot, their shin, their knee, their upper leg, their hips, their gut, their chest, their arms, their elbows, their hands, their fingers, their necks, their heads, their beards, their eyes, their eyebrows... And, also, since they don't receive HP damage, there may not actually be a reason for them to stop doing this.
    lol

    I can see this would be useful when fighting the Black Knight...
    The Resistance character:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Uthlas-Reth
    Male CG Grey Elf Wizard 1/Archivist 2, Level 3, Init +3, HP 17/17, Speed
    AC 12, Touch 12, Flat-footed 9, Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +5, Base Attack Bonus 1
    Lt. Crossbow +4 (1d8, 19-20x2)
    5-ft burst Fiery burst DC 17 Reflex (2d6, -)
    Quarterstaff -1 (1d6-2, 20x2)
    (+3 Dex, -1 Misc)
    Abilities Str 6, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 8
    Condition None

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Broken Damaged Worthless

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    Just you wait. Soon, yes soon, my vengeance will be unleashed, and you all will suffer my wrath.

    Or not. I'm playin' this one by ear.

    Now, you see, I have the hamster spinning its wheels. Let's say we have two giants wielding gnomes, and both gnomes are wearing this cloak. Now, if we make a disarm attempt...
    Well, it depends. The cloak arguably doesn't protect against a disarm, since that's not an actual "attack", though attack is kinda fuzzily defined in D&D. I'd probably say "*SMACK*".

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    Thanks for the quick feedback! Very helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamer Girl View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    It always bugs me that people read things like 'transforms any nonmagical
    weapon or missile that strikes the wearer into harmless light,
    destroying it.' and just go off the deep end.

    Why can't people see that the cloak was intended to just effect nonmagical
    weapon or missile, like swords and arrows?

    Why do people feel the need to make stuff all powerful?

    Why would a person think: The cloak must effect natural attacks like claws too, and as written that is a disintegration effect. So anything that touches me 'as a weapon' gets disintegrated!

    And why would someone think that a single item would be so crazy over powered?

    And even more so, if your gonna make that conclusion, why not make the 'transformation into light' effect the whole creature that attacked? So anything that strikes the cloak is disintegrated?

    And why stop there, a word or thought can be a 'nonmagical
    weapon or missile'. So if someone attacks the cloak with words..poof, they are light! So if someone thinks about attacking the cloak..poof they are light too.

    What about natural disasters? Is an Earthquake an attack with a nonmagical
    weapon or missile? If so would the cloak transform the whole world in to light?

    I know it's written poorly, and Wizards has had no editors ever, but I just don't get why people have to be so crazy about this stuff
    .
    Very good points in my opinion (was just thinking about one or two of those myself), and somewhat insightful to the nature of munchkinry and rules abuse in general.

    I'll try to respond as best I can:

    To be honest, the intent of this cloak, and most other things, is pretty obvious. It's like election finance law: sure, the government didn't *want* candidates to abuse PACs for unlimited attack ads, but since when has that stopped anyone?

    The creation of all-powerful things makes me feel smart and giddy, and OP/munchinkry is just the logical/pissing-contest/egotist extension of character-creation: "I want to make a character" [one pulped monk later] -> "I want my character to overcome in-game obstacles" [Crusader's party role invalidated by caster] -> "I don't want my character being invalidated by casters" [other ToB barely keeps up] -> "I want to outshine the wizard" [only works when Wiz lets you] -> "I want to throw the moon at people" [warhulking hurler].

    On the natural-weapon point: I couldn't find anything to say that natural weapons were or were not counted weapons [hence the post].

    For the one-really-overpowered-item thing: I stared in disbelief at the description at first, and knew pretty well WotC had not intended declawed bears and gnome-fights when they wrote it. It's the fact that RAW trumps RAI right up until the DM says no.

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    Well, keep in mind that an unarmed strike can be made with any part of one's body, so they can at least keep on hitting you with their foot, their shin, their knee, their upper leg, their hips, their gut, their chest, their arms, their elbows, their hands, their fingers, their necks, their heads, their beards, their eyes, their eyebrows... And, also, since they don't receive HP damage, there may not actually be a reason for them to stop doing this.
    I love this site...

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    Now, you see, I have the hamster spinning its wheels. Let's say we have two giants wielding gnomes, and both gnomes are wearing this cloak. Now, if we make a disarm attempt...
    the sunder rules say that you "strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding", and the Cloak refers to weapons "that strike(s) the wearer". So if the gnomes count as nonmagical weapons, you can attempt to sunder one with the other, and have a gnome turned into harmless light. RAW FTW.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Elric VIII's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    New York
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    the sunder rules say that you "strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding", and the Cloak refers to weapons "that strike(s) the wearer". So if the gnomes count as nonmagical weapons, you can attempt to sunder one with the other, and have a gnome turned into harmless light. RAW FTW.
    Is a Gnome Wizard considered a magical weapon?


    As for the cloak itself, is there any mechanic that describes how it destroys said magical weapon? This may be a basis for argument.

    Also, I see that its aura is Abjuration. I don't seem to recall insta-death effects to be very abjuration-related.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    Well, at the best, out of 20 saves there will be a one. Automatic fail, damage taken, and a chance to damage an item worn. If I was the DM, the first item to be damaged would be the blasted starmantle cloak. And if you don't have a shield, then it can be. Number 5 on the list is Magical Cloak. Expect items to make saves, and slowly over time be destroied. I guess your pocketbook can replace your HP in this case.
    "I am bleeding, making me the victor!" - Wimp Lo, 'Kung Pow'
    "Nonsense! I would never do such a thing unless you were already having been going to do that!" - Professor Hubert Farnsworth A, 'Futurama'

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Does This Work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Funkyodor View Post
    Well, at the best, out of 20 saves there will be a one. Automatic fail, damage taken, and a chance to damage an item worn. If I was the DM, the first item to be damaged would be the blasted starmantle cloak. And if you don't have a shield, then it can be. Number 5 on the list is Magical Cloak. Expect items to make saves, and slowly over time be destroied. I guess your pocketbook can replace your HP in this case.
    I know it isn't perfect, but it essentially grants a 'lol no' to nonmagic weapons, as well as what amounts to a 95% no-damage chance for magic weapons, and even the ~1/20 that gets through is only doing half damage (from evasion). Which is.. about as good as your going to get from a single item and a feat. It'll be just like being afraid of criticals, except the "critical" in this case is half damage from a single attack.

    It's nice to know that I'll have to crit-fail a will save before taking damage from weapons. And there are all sorts of ways to get re-rolls on saves. Every reroll I get turns 1/20 into 1/40 into 1/60, and if I'm eating that many magic arrows, I'm doing it wrong.

    But I just read the sunder/disarm rules, and although it's pathetically easy to sunder/steal cloaks off of people, how many guys are, barring intimate knowledge of this item, going to watch their souped-up magic attacks (ones which hit, no less) not even do the minimum 1 damage and say "I'll eat an AoO trying to rip his clothes off!" rather than "holy ****, what's this guy's DR?".

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •