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    Default A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    "Do you see that, son? The way the light bends like a mirage over by those trees? That's a mage, son, and a damn good one, at that. Look closely at the way the leaves on the wind swirl around him. He's using a spell called Mage Armor--it's creating a field around him that they float around. And smell that--can you, now that the wind is changing? It's a cinnamony sort of smell, mixed with sulphur. Yes, that's it--that is the smell of power and magic. That man is protected from the effects of fire. Learn these well, my son, or else you will die to invisible demons such as he."

    Feat: The Color of Magic

    Pre-requisites: Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment

    Benefit: Gain the benefits of a continuous See Invisibility, as per the spell. This is an Extraordinary ability, as are all the abilities listed below that advance per HD.

    Special: Taking this feat reduces your caster level for all your spells and spell-like abilities by 2. This stacks with the reduction in CL of Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment, to a total of -10.

    Bonus Effects:
    When you reach 8 HD, you gain the benefits of a continuous Arcane Sight (Note that you must still succeed on the spellcraft check to identify magic auras--however, this check is reduced by 1/2.
    When you reach 12 HD, you gain the benefits of a continuous True Seeing effect.
    When you reach 16 HD, you gain the benefits of a continuous Greater Arcane Sight effect.

    *A note: These effects are due to seeing through the magic involved, and is in a sense a double sight--one sees both the magic and through it at the same time. Therefore, if true seeing allowed one to see an invisible fog cloud, one could see the fog and see through the fog at the same time, and therefore remain unaffected by the fog.
    Change Log:
    Added Pierce Magical Concealment as a pre-req.
    Took away spellcraft rank advancement and replaced with HD advancement.

    Some notes:
    What I'm trying to do here is give Fighters and other melee types the ability to go it alone against casters and have a chance of at least taking the fight to them. This might be particularly useful in solo campaigns and in arena matches, as I've noticed there is a tendency in the arena matches for players to immediately go invisible, and then spend the entire match trying to locate one another. A fighter with this feat should be able to avoid a completely one-sided fight against invisible opponents, if he should be separated from his party.

    I realize this is fairly powerful, and I've tried to reflect that in requiring that you max out Spellcraft, which isn't very easy for a Fighter with 2+Int skill points to spend. I've also built this as a mini-feat tree, requiring Mage Slayer to access, but I didn't want a melee type to have to purchase 6 different feats to attain the full effect of this feat.

    The additional HD restriction should also prevent early attainment of these bonus effects through making Spellcraft a class skill. So, regardless of class skill or not, you won't gain Greater Arcane Sight until Level 16, at a minimum.

    I've also ramped the CL penalty up to 11 (or, at least, 10) for taking this feat. This is not meant for casters to take to become more powerful. This is a feat meant to represent a fighter spending his entire life trying to not die at the hands of casters, and should represent someone honing their senses to the point of picking up on what a caster is doing.

    So, thoughts? Concerns? Questions? Suggestions? This is a WIP, and I'd definitely appreciate thoughts on balance or thoughts on other abilities that might fit thematically with this concept.
    Last edited by Barbarian MD; 2012-03-18 at 09:01 PM.
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    Default Re: A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    This is interesting, but it honestly feels more like a weak prestige class than a feat. I like the idea of martial characters learning ways to sense magic and avoid it based solely on a 6th sense. Perhaps something similar to the Occult Slayer (CW) with a more awareness feel rather than a spell immunity feel.
    I think the progression of power, if you keep it a feat, fits more with a feat tree than just one feat which grows in power with your Spellcraft skill.

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    Default Re: A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    I will point out that it is already a two-feat tree, since it requires Mage Slayer as a pre-req, though I suppose that's a small caveat. Ultimately, though, the feats don't so much build on each other as they overlap, and that's what makes me hesitant to make them multiple feats. Once you attain a feat for True Seeing, your feat granting See Invisibility is completely worthless, except as a pre-req. The same goes for Arcane Sight and Greater Arcane Sight--once you get the second, you've basically got a placeholder in your feat list.

    What I don't want to do is force a fighter to spend all of his feats on this, and I don't want to take away from a fighter's ability to do fighter-ish things or force a fighter to multiclass into a PrC just to see things that are invisible. I just want to help a fighter do his job better when it comes to fighting casters.

    As was pointed out to me when I was trying to figure out if there was already a non-homebrew way to do this in the Roleplaying Thread, you can get a continuous True Seeing item for 75,000 gp (or have it crafted for a mere 37,500 gp), and you can get smaller, activate-able items that should cover you for three encounters for a total of 10,000 gp, which isn't a whole lot of money at the levels at which you start to gain the more significant aspects of this feat.

    But still, you have valid arguments, and I'd be curious to see if other agree with you.

    EDIT: I suppose it might help if I mentioned that I was adapting the F&K system of feats that improve with age, but instead of BAB, this is based on skill ranks.
    Last edited by Barbarian MD; 2010-12-16 at 03:00 PM.
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    Default Re: A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    I could see this being a core effect of Spellcraft. With your permission I'll actually commandeer the idea for that?
    Last edited by gkathellar; 2010-12-16 at 02:45 PM.
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    Default Re: A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    Go right ahead. I'd be interested in seeing the final product.
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    Default Re: A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    Quote Originally Posted by mhvaughan View Post
    I will point out that it is already a two-feat tree, since it requires Mage Slayer as a pre-req, though I suppose that's a small caveat.

    What I don't want to do is force a fighter to spend all of his feats on this, and I don't want to take away from a fighter's ability to do fighter-ish things or force a fighter to multiclass into a PrC just to see things that are invisible. I just want to help a fighter do his job better when it comes to fighting casters.

    As was pointed out to me when I was trying to figure out if there was already a non-homebrew way to do this in the Roleplaying Thread, you can get a continuous True Seeing item for 75,000 gp (or have it crafted for a mere 37,500 gp), and you can get smaller, activate-able items that should cover you for three encounters for a total of 10,000 gp, which isn't a whole lot of money at the levels at which you start to gain the more significant aspects of this feat.

    But still, you have valid arguments, and I'd be curious to see if other agree with you.

    EDIT: I suppose it might help if I mentioned that I was adapting the F&K system of feats that improve with age, but instead of BAB, this is based on skill ranks.
    I'm not familiar with the F&K system, but that does make this seem more appropriate. Also, if I was going to make it into a tree, it would be a 3-4 feat tree at most, no more. (Not even a dent in a fighter's feats.)

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    I could see this being a core effect of Spellcraft. With your permission I'll actually commandeer the idea for that?
    I quite agree. This could become a Spellcraft ability naturally, or perhaps combining your ideas into a feat which gives you access to this special application of Spellcraft.

    Feat: Eldritch Awareness
    Prerequisites: Spellcraft ranks and Mage Slayer
    Bonus: Access the Sense Magic application of the Spellcraft skill.
    Special: May be taken as a fighter bonus feat.

    This would work in a setting that does not use the F&K system without draining any more feats than you originally planned.

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    Default Re: A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    Darn, you quoted me before I edited.

    Note this point that I made in the edit above: "Ultimately, though, the feats don't so much build on each other as they overlap, and that's what makes me hesitant to make them multiple feats. Once you attain a feat for True Seeing, your feat granting See Invisibility is completely worthless, except as a pre-req. The same goes for Arcane Sight and Greater Arcane Sight--once you get the second, you've basically got a placeholder in your feat list."

    F&K feats are from the Races of War "sourcebook" (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Races_o...dvanced_Combat). When I said "adapting," I meant this was designed for a regular D&D game, but I was utilizing their concept of feat advancement for it, rather than implying that this was only for use in Races of War games.

    Now, your ideas about unlocking an aspect of Spellcraft are quite interesting (I apparently fail at grammar...). I'd be curious to see it fleshed out, but I wonder about having to make those checks, since the people this is designed for won't actually have Spellcraft as a class skill... As well, I would definitely encourage this to be utilized in conjunction with Mage Slayer--otherwise it just makes casters more powerful.
    Last edited by Barbarian MD; 2010-12-16 at 04:09 PM.
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    Default Re: A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    Quote Originally Posted by mhvaughan View Post
    Darn, you quoted me before I edited.

    Now, you're ideas about unlocking an aspect of Spellcraft is quite interesting. I'd be curious to see it fleshed out, but I wonder about having to make those checks, since the people this is designed for won't actually have Spellcraft as a class skill... As well, I would definitely encourage this to be utilized in conjunction with Mage Slayer--otherwise it just makes casters more powerful.
    Perhaps that could be an aspect of the feat as well, granting fighters Spellcraft as a class skill. I, personally, never liked the skill system. I always wanted to have more control over what skills my characters knew and didn't know.
    In my own homebrew I've reduced the overall number of skills by consolidating skills like Hide/Move Silently/Sleight of Hand into a simple Stealth (Dex) skill. Then I use a point-buy system during character creation to select class skills. Finally I use the trained/untrained system rather than the skill points system, thus streamlining while allowing greater customization.

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    Default Re: A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    hmm, off the top of my head, i am thinking that a combination of these ideas might work the best.

    let's say that spellcraft did have some kind of "sense magic" core application, but that it was only available to characters with high ranks in spellcraft.

    18 ranks––see invisibility
    20 ranks––arcane sight
    22 ranks––true seeing
    etc...

    further, (i haven't actually looked at the spell descriptions in order to see what kind of actions they normally require for use) in order to use them, the character must take a full-round act or something similar in order to make the skill check.

    but the fighter feat allows usage of these epic and near-epic skill uses at a much lower level (say, 2 ranks, 4 ranks, etc as detailed in the feat), allows them with a swift act or no act (not sure that permanent effect is balanced yet, but we'll see), and without the skill check.

    i think that this is balanced by the caster level nerf.

    what i don't want to do is absorb pierce magic concealment into the effects. that feat is pretty potent in and of itself, and is good as a stand-alone. further, if we make this a 3-feat tree, the effects could build off of each other.

    say you have pierce magic concealment and color of magic, and you finally reach true seeing at 6 ranks. now when you take that swift act to activate true seeing, you see through any concealment, even fog and stuff (or something else less obviously thought up in 10 seconds).
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    Default Re: A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    another thought i had today: roll pierce magical concealment into the prereqs and then drop caster level penalty to -2, for a total still of -10.

    that would make me feel better about making pierce magical concealment useless, would make this a more expensive feat, which would further justify its powerful effect, and would still end up having a scaling effect.

    one other thing thing; i'd drop the "at 4 ranks you gain..." progression. you already have ranks in spellcraft required for feat entry, and it's already HD-dependent. so i'd just keep it HD-dependent and save them the trouble of needing to spend more spellcraft ranks.

    i don't think that this would be unbalanced, though i might be wrong.
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    Default Re: A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    While the idea is nice, this feat is much of an overkill.

    Permanent See Invisibility is a very powerful feat on its own, the added bonuses make it even crazier.

    This SHOULD be broken down to 3 or even 4 feat in a chain with ranking requirements to be anywhere near balanced to anything other then full casters, seriously.


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    Default Re: A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    Quote Originally Posted by boomwolf View Post
    While the idea is nice, this feat is much of an overkill.

    Permanent See Invisibility is a very powerful feat on its own, the added bonuses make it even crazier.

    This SHOULD be broken down to 3 or even 4 feat in a chain with ranking requirements to be anywhere near balanced to anything other then full casters, seriously.
    I AM trying to balance it against full casters. That's my point--I want fighters to have nice things, particularly when they fight those full casters. At 16HD, Wizards have access to Level 7 spells. And I want to give melee types continuous True Seeing/Greater Arcane Sight to fight those casters. Is that really so powerful?

    But yes, as per Stycotl's suggestion, I'll incorporate Pierce Magical Concealment into this feat. That will make it a three feat chain.
    Last edited by Barbarian MD; 2010-12-24 at 03:26 PM.
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    Default Re: A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    Yes it is. because it does not only take effect against that full wizard, the bard and assassin with their clumsy 4-6th level illusion are also taken down by it, and if you want to compare to existing things, the feat "willing deformity: eye" allows 10 minutes per day of see invisibility, requires the crappy "willing deformity" feat as a requirement, and gives you a permanent hit to spot checks.

    See, not saying that feat is properly balanced. (its too weak for its own good.) but you can't just have certain feats a "requirement gaming feat", or in simple words-a feat everyone, MUST take.

    And by its current power level, anyone NOT taking it is a fool.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cormag81 View Post
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    Default Re: A feat for melee characters to see through magic

    Quote Originally Posted by boomwolf View Post
    Yes it is. because it does not only take effect against that full wizard, the bard and assassin with their clumsy 4-6th level illusion are also taken down by it, and if you want to compare to existing things, the feat "willing deformity: eye" allows 10 minutes per day of see invisibility, requires the crappy "willing deformity" feat as a requirement, and gives you a permanent hit to spot checks.

    See, not saying that feat is properly balanced. (its too weak for its own good.)
    that's your problem right there. you can't logically make the case that it is overpowered because it is better than what is in your own words, a crappy feat.

    but you can't just have certain feats a "requirement gaming feat", or in simple words-a feat everyone, MUST take.

    And by its current power level, anyone NOT taking it is a fool.
    not everyone needs to take it at all. only pure melee builds that want to focus on casters, taking a three-feat anti-caster chain should take it.

    however, if it does seem to be too cheap, then bringing back the spellcraft rank requirements seems reasonable to me. but straight out banning a melee feat that casters get at about the same level simply because it breaks with wotc precedent (which effectively states that noncasters should suck)––is not what i would call intelligent.
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