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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Chimera

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    Default Angels as antagonists?

    On my way home earlier, I dropped by at Borders and flipped through a dnd novel titled "Empyrean Odyssey". Interesting look at the workings of a celestial bureaucracy, and the ragtag band of fiends and one angel who ends up on the wrong side of the law. While on the bus, that got me thinking.

    Has anyone here have any experience with running a campaign where the primary antagonists are good-aligned outsiders? It shouldn't be all that difficult to come up with up with a theocracy staffed with angels and archons, but the real headache would be coming up with a plausible reason as to why the PCs would want to lead a revolt against heaven.

    This isn't about the party questing to stop some obviously evil plot like a solar trying to bring about mass genocide for whatever reason. The key npcs are all LG and would be roleplayed as such. The PCs wouldn't be evil either.

    What shortcomings might a country (or world) run by LG outsiders have? One idea which comes to mind is that their method of rule may resemble a benign dictatorship or facist state, which may rub some people the wrong way, and start sowing the seeds of discontent.

    One hand, I would like to see the good npcs in MM/BOED get more use outside of SM/planar ally. The other, to add a twist to conventional black-and-white games. I don't plan on running such a game (at least not anytime soon), but I am genuinely curious to see how it might be executed, as well as if it can be sustained from lv1-20+.

    Let the brainstorming begin (I hope?).

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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    The first (and only) campaign I've ever actually finished as a player had a fallen angel BBEG. I can't remember whether the angel himself was still considered Good (may have never known, but I expect he at least fell to Neutral), but his minions included a large number of Lawful Good Paladins who believed they were doing the bidding of a true celestial being.
    ...but that could be your reason for "leading a revolt against heaven"? Somehow it's been infiltrated by a truly Evil creature that is directing the still truly Good celestials to Evil ends. Maybe you find real evidence for the reality of the Burning Hate...

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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    You might be interested in a project that was built on Planewalker, a while ago: the Ortho Project. Now, it wasn't entirely what you are looking for, but it's a prime world ruled by the Harmonium, a very lawful and slightly good organization.

    Apart from that: if you want a world ruled by archons, I think a problem here would be the difference in perspective between them and the mortals they rule over.

    Archons do not eat or sleep. They have various immunities. They are immortal. All but the lanterns are wiser and more charismatic than humans, often considerably so. Most are also more intelligent. They are lawful and good to a degree few humans could ever hope to achieve.

    What does that mean for living with mortals? Only the most exceptional humans can compare to archons mentally. And an archon can invest 24 hours a day seven days a week into his job, if necessary, without needing sleep or supply. They are, simply, better at everything.

    And a government? Think of any official position. Would you put a mortal or an archon in it? Should your judge have a +6 bonus to wisdom and intelligence and be inherently lawful? Should your town guard never sleep and be able to nonviolently restrain any criminal human with a look? Archons can do all that.

    So, a state with archons in it? It would probably look fascist or at least oligarchic. The archons can't help being better than humans. They would probably let humans into all councils and so on, just out of their own sense of fairness, but in the end, they are just better at leading them than they are themselves. The humans would soon feel, well, superfluous. Only tolerated, not needed.That could quickly breed discontent, even if they were well cared for.

    And the worst thing? The archons want to help. They feel pity for the mortals. It's not their fault, after all, that they are born just a little less perfect than their ten feet tall dog-headed super-genius neighbours.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2010-12-20 at 07:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    DDO has a quest where fight a bunch of misguided angels.
    The backstory is quite nice, I'd look it for you but I can't load my characters for some reason.
    Perhaps a googlesearch will help...
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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    I had a party that was entirely composed of characters who were neutral along the good-evil axis, with the campaign setting as the onset of a holy war. Early on, they had antagonists who were from Celestia as well as from the Infernal plane, as well as the PMP representatives of both sides. As the story progressed, their actions were influenced more by the machinations of the devils than by the angels, until by around level 12, they were working toward the devils' goals, without being evil themselves. That meant, of course, that the forces of Celestia were against them.

    As for shortfalls of a theoretical LG society, I can easily envision a LG society where Lawful and Good behavior is enforced without compassion, devolving into a society where "Happiness Is Mandatory." Lawful and Good behavior enforced through guilt and haranguing can potentially build up a lot of resentment, particularly among chaotically-inclined folks, while those of a more neutral disposition might wonder whether the leadership had slid toward a LE dictatorship.
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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    Keep in mind that angels are the embodiment of Lawful and Good, so they easily tend to excesses, at mortals' eyes.
    Put some chaotic good character in a extremely lawful good society, and suddenly the chaotic part will feel that something must be done to guarantee freedom...

    Another note: a character can also be LG, and oppose firmly a LG society, if the two concepts of "lawful" differ too much.
    Think to the opposite positions of Iron Man and Cap. America in Civil War.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2010-12-20 at 09:34 AM.
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    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    The first (and only) campaign I've ever actually finished as a player had a fallen angel BBEG. I can't remember whether the angel himself was still considered Good (may have never known, but I expect he at least fell to Neutral), but his minions included a large number of Lawful Good Paladins who believed they were doing the bidding of a true celestial being.
    ...but that could be your reason for "leading a revolt against heaven"? Somehow it's been infiltrated by a truly Evil creature that is directing the still truly Good celestials to Evil ends. Maybe you find real evidence for the reality of the Burning Hate...
    Another option could be the PCs are the misguided paladins. That probably wouldn't be sustainable, though, seeing as the characters would eventually figure out what's going on.
    Last edited by Chilingsworth; 2010-12-20 at 09:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    I ran a campaign where the PC's had to obtain some holy relics. When they summoned/gated in angels to ask for the relic that was on their plane of existance, the angels all said "no".

    Since the PC's needed the relic (or they thought the needed the relic), they infiltrated the angel's home plane and stole the relic.

    For the rest of the campaign, they were hunted by angels. The PC's had to keep the relic away from the angels long enough to save the world. The relic was also sought after by devils and deamons.

    The relic just happen to be the physical heart of Pelor. If the heart were to be damaged or destroyed, Pelor might die.

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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    Okay, how about this?

    Angels have captured an incredibly powerful evil god and are putting him on trial before his inevitable execution. Only thing is, his execution will bring about a lot of destruction as this god is either A) Stopping something even worse or B) has set up something to happen with his demise.

    The angels don't believe this (really, the guy is evil and will say anything to get free) so the PCs have to fight the angels and rescue the evil god for the good of humanity.

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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    C) The Evil god embodies a concept crucial to the workings of the universe (Death being the obvious one, which means a more obscure one would be better), and destroying them would severely damage Creation.

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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    For inspiration, I strongly recommend reading some Jack Williamson, one of the lesser-known Golden Age sci fi greats. He wrote a couple books and some short stories about a future world in which benevolent Asimov-inspired robots took their programming imperative "To Serve and Obey, And Guard Men from Harm" more seriously than their creators had originally intended. The problem was that the "Guard Men from Harm" part of the programming came first, before the "Serve and Obey" part. Vices are harmful. Potentially, so are many recreational activities. So when the robots take over to protect humanity from itself, a lot of fun goes out of the world. But they have the very best of intentions...

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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    Have you watched the last couple of seasons of Supernatural?

    The thing with Angels is, they're powerful and righteous. Kore,the unstoppable Paladin from the Goblins webcomic could be a good example of the kind of Angel that decides that evil must be stamped out. Hard and permanently.
    Last edited by The Big Dice; 2010-12-20 at 11:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    When seeing this thread, I had a similar idea to Sipex and Serpentine. Angels plan to do something good, but it also has negative consequences. The angles believe the consequences are unfortunate but neccessary, but completely worth it. The PCs disagree.
    The interesting part about such a situation is, that both the angels and the (good) PCs will most probably want to prevent violence as much as possible, as their opponents really have good reasons and honorable motives. Because of this, a lot of the usual tactics to deal with problems can not be applied, by both sides.
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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    Also remember that Angels are a step above humanity. They're immortal, almost entirely Lawful Good all the time, and are generally pretty close to being perfect beings. Most of them probably think they are perfect beings. Just because they are Lawful Good, and a handful of mortals happen to also be Lawful Good, does not mean they see eye-to-eye or even consider each other as allies. If you think about it, mortals are completely varied in alignment, a mortal can be good or evil easily. Mortals have a great capacity to do evil in the world, and Angels should realize this--meaning that there is no reason why Angels can't begin a campaign to rid the world of humanity. They cause too much evil for the piddly amount of good they bring, in the eyes of the Angels, and therefore for the greater good of the cosmos, they must be destroyed. Even good-aligned mortals are culled as well, because heaven knows when they'll swap sides of the alignment spectrum and wreak havoc.

    Or alternatively, forget alignments of mortals entirely. Mortals cause a lot of problems, and always have. They only live a small amount of time, and they have no real foresight into the future. They act for the moment, and rarely consider the ramification of their actions, which can cause untold amounts of destruction to the universe. Think about how many eldritch abominations are let loose by unsuspecting or easily-fooled humanity. The Angels may have gotten tired of this, seeing the mortal races as just a blight to the universe. Ridding the world of these vermin is a good act to them, and therefore it's alright to slaughter them all.

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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    I've always preferred the worldview where good and evil are tangible forces, but angels are imperfect. Thus, because an angel has the good subtype, a planetar standing in the middle of a burned-down orphanage eating a puppy would still light up under detect good, and killing it to avenge all the orphans would still constitute an alignment shift towards evil.

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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    I was on the TPK end of a campaign that (at the end) had one of its gods go insane. All of his angels were still LG, but following his order to kill all things Neutral and evil, so they were cutting a path of destruction through the world.

    The problem is that Angels (Solars in particular) are not made to be an enemy. They have stupid op powers like ____ at will, and heal every round, and other crazy stuff no other creature has.

    So use them sparingly as enemies. You'll have to nerf them, play them dumb, or have TPK.

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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    Planescape: Torment had an antagonistical angel (A Deva)

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    Thrown out of Celestia for trying to make the angels take a more provocative stance against the Demons/Devils. He plans to give a city too the Devils so he can have a squad of them to lead to attacl Celestia in order to rouse the other Celestials to fight against the Demons/Devils rather than have the "as long as they are fighting each other..." approach. His quote sums it best

    Trias: I will not be judged by you mortal; not when you have lived the lives you have. Let me tell you of Betrayal: betrayal is cowardice... selling weapons to your adversaries out of fear that they might stop killing each other and turn upon you. Betrayal is refusing to lead by example. Betrayal is letting the Fiends run rampart through the Planes until evil has corrupted all hearts.


    There is also that whole fiasco in NWN 2:Mask of The Betrayer

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    Ao decreed that the Wall of the Faithless will stand because otherwise mortal beings have no incentive to beleive in gods (Wherein if they fail to believe in gods their souls go there to be tormented for eternity). So either your own party member, the Half-Angel Kaelyin the Dove who tried to lead a crusade to bring down the wall, turns agaisnt you for trying to preserve it or you fight Kelemvor Celestial servants who are attempting to stop your attempt to bring it down.
    Last edited by SITB; 2010-12-20 at 01:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
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    Err. Lanter Archons have INT 6, WIS 11, CHA 10. That's inferior to the average human.
    Hound Archons have INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 12, better than humans but not considerably so.
    Trumphet Archons have INT 16, WIS 16, CHA 16, considerably better than humans, but they're the the top of the archon hierarchy, I don't know the ratio of Trumphets to Lanters or Trumphets to Hounds, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's closed to the same ratio of people with the same INT, WIS and CHA.
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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    I didn't see it mentioned here, but if you were wanting to do the "Angels are evil/antagonistic" rout, you could go with the typical Shin Megami Tensei angels. They are more "Lawful Neutral" to "Lawful Evil" (with some being good), and who usually want to turn reality into a plane of pure Law, where everyone has lost their free will and worships God.

    The players could learn of this plan somehow for the campaign, and by the end of the campaign, are fighting their way through the celestial plane to punch god in the face.
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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    One of my most succesful and long running campaigns revolved around a struggle between Law and Chaos, inspired by the Shin Megami Tensei series of games. I'll spoiler it for length, but I'm really glad of how it all turned out.

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    The basic idea is that Angels and other Good outsiders wanted to build a perfect world without wars or crime. This, unfortunately, meant tyranny on a cosmic scale.
    The players, who worked for this nation of tyrant saints for a time, finally decided that this was not cool, and embarked on a quest to shake the foundations of the world and ensure that all men and women in the world would retain their free will.

    By the end of the campaign they discovered that Pelor was the god responsible for the whole mess. They then convinced the rest of the gods to become their allies and killed the Sun God, bringing freedom into the world once again. Unfortunately the battle was fierce enough to bring down practically every other god, too, and when the dust settled the material plane was utterly devoid of divine influence.

    The kicker? This world without gods was helpless against a new threat, which promptly devoured it and turned the entire material plane into a hostile world of shadows and death.
    This deathworld was, incidentally, the same one that we had been playing in the previous campaign. The players' crusade against the Angels turned into a prologue of a much darker story.


    When you start knocking on heaven's door with a battle axe infused with the power of Anarchy, the universe is bound to break a little in the brawl that follows.

    edit: Randalor beat me to it! Always nice to see more people aware of MegaTen.
    Last edited by Comet; 2010-12-20 at 01:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    I said "above lanterns", though. And that's still nearly a standard deviation for archons, until I'm mistaken. There's just as many exceptional archons as exceptional humans, and they are smarter. And then there's the higher archons, the levels above trumpets, they are a different thing entirely, on average smarter and wiser than a mortal can ever hope to be.
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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    Here's a thought: it's already been mentioned that most angels are better at everything than the average mortal. Why not have a group of angels/archons intent on turning all mortals into outsiders? I could especially see this in an "angels living alongside mortals" society like Eldan described. The angels are aware that humans are unhappy and feel excluded from power, so they want to bring humans into the celestial embrace...which has the side effects of making them compulsorily lawful good and leading to the extinction of humanity. The angels might even let people choose whether or not to convert, but they'd push the service like drug dealers, and mortals would be brought to rage against the dying of their species.

    Also, the spell often referred to as Holy Mindrape has some good angelic antagonist potential.
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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    how do you make Angels the antagonists?

    by having the players fight for Chaos!

    seriously, if the archons Lawfulness is strong enough, they might take the view that the good of socitey is more important than the good of any one person. "needs of the many", and all that.

    if you take it to the extreme, you can argue that it is (lawful) good to enforce conformity with social norms, as dissenting opinions can lead to conflict. Thus, doing things like running "Mental correction" camps where people are magically "Adjusted" to the LG mindset, or the violent supression of dissenting opinions, can be justifed. after all, if everybody thinks the same, then thier can be no conflict.



    another, less despotic option:

    The players work for a good aligned kingdom, which is at war with another good aligned kingdom (hey, it happens. disputes over borders, one king pressing him claim to the throne of the other, etc. most "real-world" motives for conflict are amoral). The opposing kingdom has the favour of one of the settings good aligned Gods (like Sigmar for Warhamer's Empire, or the Lady for Bretonnia form the same setting), who has sent some of his Servants to help "His" people.
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    yuk Re: Angels as antagonists?

    You mean using Polymorph (into Archons) and Sanctify the Wicked to go all Stepford on the mortal world? Might work.
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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    the latter, mostly, with a good helping of old fashioned Room 101 style brain breaking thrown in for good mesure.

    basically, the idea is:

    IF, by forcibly changing the alignments of Non LG persons to LG, or or at least affecting a change in thier actions to a LG norm, you can reduce or entirely remove conflict and crime, THEN you are justifed in using any and all means to achieve this, dispite any personal freedoms you may trample along the way, as you are improving the lot of the whole of socity.
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
    But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.

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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    You mean using Polymorph (into Archons) and Sanctify the Wicked to go all Stepford on the mortal world? Might work.
    I especially like this idea. In order to "save" humanity the Archons start kidnapping people to cast Sanctify the Wicked on. Since the spell takes a full year to complete, these people will be missing for a long period of time and when they come back they will be changed, perhaps with golden eyes to reflect the spell. Go with a whole "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" vibe and you could really have some fun with it.

    You now have superhuman beings that want to make everyone "just like them." Also, as being more intelligent and wiser, clearly they see the benefit greater than you do so for your own good they must do it against your will.

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    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm Bringer View Post
    how do you make Angels the antagonists?

    by having the players fight for Chaos!

    seriously, if the archons Lawfulness is strong enough, they might take the view that the good of socitey is more important than the good of any one person. "needs of the many", and all that.

    if you take it to the extreme, you can argue that it is (lawful) good to enforce conformity with social norms, as dissenting opinions can lead to conflict. Thus, doing things like running "Mental correction" camps where people are magically "Adjusted" to the LG mindset, or the violent supression of dissenting opinions, can be justifed. after all, if everybody thinks the same, then thier can be no conflict.
    There was a truly awful item in the 2nd Ed Tome of Magic called the Mirror of Simple Order that I used to PC-terrifying effect as a judicial punishment in a particularly lawful empire in a past campaign. Break the law badly enough and you were offered the choice of 10 years working in the mines or as a galley slave or taking your chances with the Mirror. Break the law really badly and you got the Mirror whether you wanted it or not.

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    Nowadays I have put a modified homebrew LG version of that item called the Mirror of Perfection in my current game as the most powerful (and currently lost) holy relic in the game world. It will kill the target on a failed save or "perfect" the target on a successful save. The save has hefty bonuses if the person is already good, lesser bonuses if already lawful (if both the save is automatically successful) and negatives to the save if currently evil. The target isn't automatically made LG on a successful save, but is moved at least one step toward Good and if already Good at least one step toward Lawful. If the target chooses, they can go the whole way. SR is really the only defense, and the Mirror has a very high caster level. As it would make a truly horrendous weapon, I have limited it so that when used it automatically transports itself back to the teleport-blocked and dimensionally-warded monster infested high temple it came from. The forces of darkness have an interest in seeing it kept out of circulation and make sure the monster supply is regularly topped off.

    As that temple is within the monster-infested ruins of the lost city of Sto Vengalis in the middle of a remote jungle inhabited by savage barbarian descendants of the Old Vengalians who consider the city taboo, it doesn't get a lot of foot traffic. One group of PCs went looking for and retrieved the Mirror two campaigns ago to cure an NPC afflicted with a curse caused by another (lesser) artifact, but it is once again back where it was found.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    I'm actually just starting to run a campaign in which the single god of the campaign will be summoned by a great ritual by the initial antagonist halfway through. From there on the god itself will be the antagonist, simply because its presence within the world is slowly altering the world to suit itself; e.g. to become the god's divine realm. Following this is the alteration of normal people into angels etc. while the players are the only ones who oppose this change as some of the few people with the willpower and strength to resist the passive effects of the god's presence.

    The simple fact that they are opposing his presence causes the god to fight back.
    Last edited by Steamsaint; 2010-12-20 at 03:11 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Redmond, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    Keep in mind that angels are the embodiment of Lawful and Good, so they easily tend to excesses, at mortals' eyes.
    This, especially if whatever organization the angels are part of tends more towards Law than Good. Conversely it can be the other way; if you have a group of CG celestials that go too far in their hunt for demons and devils, their can be some antagonism there as well.

    If you've played Fall from Heaven 2, Basium is an excellent example of this. For those who haven't, he's an archangel who is so fanatical about killing demons that he willingly fell(giving up his immortality in the process) so that he could break celestial law whenever it prevented him from killing demons, or anyone who is affiliated with demons, or anyone who at one point may have been involved in some event which may have been related to demons. He and his followers are much more of the avenging crusader archtype where they are more concerned with eradicating Evil than protecting Good, sort of like Miko was. If you think of an entire organization like this, it is easy to see how they can go so far in their pursuit that they can act as an antagonist.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Shadowleaf's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2010

    Default Re: Angels as antagonists?

    There's a third party d20 book called The Wrath (or Anger?) of Angels. It's actually really good for this kind of thing. The fluff on fallen angels is really, really good.
    Last edited by Shadowleaf; 2010-12-20 at 04:10 PM.
    English is a second language etc etc.

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