Metal Thread V - Defenders of the Faith

[eyeofsaulot]

Anyway, a number of pages back I asked for Black Metal recommendations. Since then I've been listening to a bunch of Black Metal, both new stuff and stuff I had but hadn't touched in ages. If anyone is interested in hearing about some of the stuff I've found, I'd be happy to share.

Do tell. Black metal might just be my favorite genre of music. And it's not just because of the music within the genre's confines (which, in itself, has so many absolute gems), but also because of the music and musicians it has directly spawned (e.g. Ihsahn, Garm). So my ears are always open when it comes to black metal.

[zeratul]

Have you considered that high-schoolers might not be the best people to ask when looking for good music? Most people I know who listen to metal are more likely to name Cloudkicker, Dream Theater, Meshuggah, Mr. Bungle, Opeth, Periphery, and Rwake than Bullet For My Valentine.

I haven't really noticed peoples tastes getting decernibly better or worse after high school but maybe thats just me. Given that for a while they're still technically my peers and since the 13-18 demographic plays a huge role in what becomes popular or dies musically and given that these are the types of bands that the radio and metal magazines in addition to programs like head-bangers ball are primarily supporting it seems appropriate for that to be the focus. I'm aware that there are serious metal fans in the US, if there weren't you and I wouldn't be in this thread having this conversation, but the majority are not.

Also, well done finding some people with good taste in metal music. I'm one of about five people I know who are seriously into metal which is not of the radio/metalcore/screamo variety(in this city anyway).

Also while screamo and metalcore are different, they share a fair amount of similarities and for that matter share a fanbase. It should also be mentioned that I am not referring to 90s/early thousands screamo as thats a whole separate thing from the whole attack attack / blood on the dance floor thing going on now.

[Makensha]

Also while screamo and metalcore are different, they share a fair amount of similarities and for that matter share a fanbase.

NO. There is not the same fanbase. While there might be some overlapping, and the people might dress and act in the similar fashion, I can only think of one person I personally know who likes both screamo and metalcore (I partially belong to the group of people you're complaining about if you never figured that out). They might seem like the same group, but really it is two separate groups that look almost identical.

And here's something that might blow your mind: generic music isn't necessarily a bad thing. There is a reason that it is generic. People like it. When many people like it, those people form community. So who do I like more, Crimson Moonlight or Haste the Day? CM all the way, but I still listen to Haste the Day because they are popular where I live (You know, the state where they started) and that is a way for me to relate to others.

Sorry if that comes off as rantish, but I'm tired of people stereotyping these things.

[toasty]

First of all, Screamo has zip to do with Metal. Screamo is a type of Hardcore Punk. Emo(tive Hardcore Punk) grew out of Hardcore Punk, and Screamo took Emo and more or less made it loopier. This is Screamo.

Which is funny, because, besides a few vocal similarities to bands like say, Underoath (at least at like Define the Great Line era... the only underoath CD I have), that song sounds nothing like: Bullet for my Valentine (Note: ... I refuse to like this band. Its just a thing, I can't really force myself to like them, and this song is just actually composed really badly). Killswitch Engage (one of the like... 4 metalcore bands I'll listen to).

I think it's simply that it just became the genre of extreme Rock music that got latched on to and marketed to the Hot Topic set. Basically any genre of Metal, or music, however, has its artistic nadirs.

Its popular now it sucks?

Also, as Aether said... no US scene wat?

Yeah, there is a US metal Scene. You might not like it, it exists. Its just not mainstream. If we include Canada: Blackguard, the Agonist, Ex Deo are all good bands.

And honestly I'd take that over the watered down pseudo-Death stuff that gets hawked out of Gothenburg.

You disappoint me.

EDIT: Also any genre of music where grown people scowl and have lyrics about murder/Satan/dragons/being vikings or any mix there of is not a genre to be taken 100% seriously. I think the critique of scene tweens wearing "girl's" pants also has a homophobic/transphobic undercurrent that's uncomfortable. I don't think critiquing people's looks while defending the genre that popularized corpse paint is a valid argument anyway.

My issue with it is that its rather anti-metal than anything else. I've always felt that Heavy Metal had the whole Biker/Medieval Warrior thing going (long hair, leather vests, masculinity), etc. The emo scene goes against that and while I don't mind the emo scene I really think that their fashion sense doesn't work with metal. ALso: emo hair bugs me.

NO. There is not the same fanbase. While there might be some overlapping, and the people might dress and act in the similar fashion, I can only think of one person I personally know who likes both screamo and metalcore (I partially belong to the group of people you're complaining about if you never figured that out). They might seem like the same group, but really it is two separate groups that look almost identical.

I know at least one guy, probably 2 or 3 guys who like Screamo and Metalcore. But I don't know enough about screamo to really, really, really know how accurate that is.

[zeratul]

NO. There is not the same fanbase. While there might be some overlapping, and the people might dress and act in the similar fashion, I can only think of one person I personally know who likes both screamo and metalcore (I partially belong to the group of people you're complaining about if you never figured that out). They might seem like the same group, but really it is two separate groups that look almost identical.

And here's something that might blow your mind: generic music isn't necessarily a bad thing. There is a reason that it is generic. People like it. When many people like it, those people form community. So who do I like more, Crimson Moonlight or Haste the Day? CM all the way, but I still listen to Haste the Day because they are popular where I live (You know, the state where they started) and that is a way for me to relate to others.

Sorry if that comes off as rantish, but I'm tired of people stereotyping these things.

Perhapse that's true in your area but at least in mine all the same kids like both genres. This is all based on my observations, and at least where I'm from almost all the kids who like screamo like metalcore and almost all the kids who like metalcore like screamo. To my knowledge there are pretty much no exceptions at least among the people In my area.

EDIT: Also any genre of music where grown people scowl and have lyrics about murder/Satan/dragons/being vikings or any mix there of is not a genre to be taken 100% seriously. I think the critique of scene tweens wearing "girl's" pants also has a homophobic/transphobic undercurrent that's uncomfortable. I don't think critiquing people's looks while defending the genre that popularized corpse paint is a valid argument anyway.

I was just making that joke because It's easy and I found it amusing at the time. I have no problem with LGBT individuals, but seriously the skinny jeans trend needs to die already. Also, what toasty said.

As for the other stuff, I'd totally agree that powermetal and black metal and such aren't always to be taken seriously (although sometimes they can be, varies song to song) but that doesn't make them any worse. The fact that they shouldn't be 100% taken seriously does not take away from the fact that they are, at least in my opinion, vastly superior in pretty much every way to the bands I was comparing them to.

[Moff Chumley]

You disappoint me.

Someone doesn't share your opinions, alert the authorities!

I'm not sure why we're having this conversation, frankly. There's plenty of amazing American metal; just because it's unpopular doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I happen to prefer American metal to European metal. Most of you clearly don't share that opinion. Our metal, such as it were, is not less "metal" than your metal.

~~

Zer, check your stereotypes. No one in this thread is talking about emos. I haven't seen an honest-to-god emo kid in years; they all became hipsters while we weren't looking.

[Faulty]

Do tell. Black metal might just be my favorite genre of music. And it's not just because of the music within the genre's confines (which, in itself, has so many absolute gems), but also because of the music and musicians it has directly spawned (e.g. Ihsahn, Garm). So my ears are always open when it comes to black metal.

When Blogger starts working again, I think I may make a blog to catalogue it.

Crimson Moonlight.

The title of that youtube video drives me crazy. Argh. @_@ The whole "Unblack" thing is so silly.

Its popular now it sucks?

I like popular music. I'm just saying that certain genres or certain aspects of genres can be articulated in a way that has mass appeal. Art like that tends to be changed into an easily marketable form via capitalism. The most digestable aspects of the form are taken and then reused to sell albums. It catches on, people like it, and recreate that same style. It's not bad because it's popular, but often produces bad music because it causes an artistic wheel spinning, so to speak. Then again, such things occur in the underground too, so whatever.

You disappoint me.

Sorry babe, but I'm more of a The Red in the Sky is Ours gal than a Slaughter of the Soul one.

My issue with it is that its rather anti-metal than anything else. I've always felt that Heavy Metal had the whole Biker/Medieval Warrior thing going (long hair, leather vests, masculinity), etc. The emo scene goes against that and while I don't mind the emo scene I really think that their fashion sense doesn't work with metal. ALso: emo hair bugs me.

Eh. I think that really limits Metal. I think it's really broadened to be a diverse genre and that limiting it to that prevents certain things it could easily express. Not to mention that leaving it at that can make it feel exclusionary towards a lot of female and queer Metal fans. Not to say that the whole leather vest thing can't look really damn awesome.

I was just making that joke because It's easy and I found it amusing at the time. I have no problem with LGBT individuals, but seriously the skinny jeans trend needs to die already. Also, what toasty said.

As for the other stuff, I'd totally agree that powermetal and black metal and such aren't always to be taken seriously (although sometimes they can be, varies song to song) but that doesn't make them any worse. The fact that they shouldn't be 100% taken seriously does not take away from the fact that they are, at least in my opinion, vastly superior in pretty much every way to the bands I was comparing them to.

I think there is enough homo-/transphobic sentiment that really exists surrounding that kind of thing that the joke isn't as harmless as it seems. I dunno. I like skinny jeans because they're condusive of an androgynous look. You have to wonder if those kids wear gaffs though.

Ensiferum and Blind Guardian and Darkthrone and stuff, for all their histrionics, are certainly awesome. However I'd say that the style can accompany plenty of bad music too.

Someone doesn't share your opinions, alert the authorities!

Toasty and I are on a ranked 5v5 League of Legends team together. So it was more of an affectionate tease if you know the context.

[toasty]

So it was more of an affectionate tease if you know the context.

This. There has yet to be a game that goes by without one of us calling the other a noob-feeder-scrub.

The title of that youtube video drives me crazy. Argh. @_@ The whole "Unblack" thing is so silly.

I'd comment further but I'd risk bringing down the wraith of the almighty mods. I agree with you though.

I like popular music. I'm just saying that certain genres or certain aspects of genres can be articulated in a way that has mass appeal. Art like that tends to be changed into an easily marketable form via capitalism. The most digestable aspects of the form are taken and then reused to sell albums. It catches on, people like it, and recreate that same style. It's not bad because it's popular, but often produces bad music because it causes an artistic wheel spinning, so to speak. Then again, such things occur in the underground too, so whatever.

You misunderstand me. I was more interested in the fact that I was able to use a TV Trope. Remember, I'm the one that listens to Ke$ha.

Eh. I think that really limits Metal. I think it's really broadened to be a diverse genre and that limiting it to that prevents certain things it could easily express. Not to mention that leaving it at that can make it feel exclusionary towards a lot of female and queer Metal fans. Not to say that the whole leather vest thing can't look really damn awesome.

It is possible that it limits metal. But then again, I'd say metal's biggest problem is that, it seems to me that the only thing that new "genres" of metal have managed to do is stuff like Eluveitie, which is basically just play the same (Melodeath) sound but with Folk Instrumentation and in Gaulish instead of Latin or Finnish or Swedish or what have you. Mind you, I'm still exploring metal a lot, but it seems that bands are really seeing the need to innovate the sound, and if they're playing the same sound, why change the stage presence that goes with it? Metal has always been about Masculinity, War Pigs, Battery, Run to the Hills, etc. They're songs that, at least to me, channel a more masculine vibe. Even bands like Epica, at least to me, are a pretty masculine (or appealing to Masculine stuff. Simone Simons is... really really hot).

I think there is enough homo-/transphobic sentiment that really exists surrounding that kind of thing that the joke isn't as harmless as it seems. I dunno. I like skinny jeans because they're condusive of an androgynous look. You have to wonder if those kids wear gaffs though.

Fair enough. I dunno, I just prefer the performance aura that a band like Epica channels than say... Devil Wears Prada. Though, to be fair, the only metalcore bands I've seen live have either been straight up horrible (Straight Line Stitch is a band that should not have a record deal. ) or have at least one of those "long-hair guys" (War of Ages), in fact, they had less hair when I saw them.

[Makensha]

The title of that youtube video drives me crazy. Argh. @_@ The whole "Unblack" thing is so silly.

Best quality vid of that song I could find. But yeah, silly names are silly.

Fair enough. I dunno, I just prefer the performance aura that a band like Epica channels than say... Devil Wears Prada.

What, a song titled HTML Rulez D00d from a band called The Devil Wears Prada isn't awesome enough for you? At least choose a band that takes itself seriously.

[toasty]

What, a song titled HTML Rulez D00d from a band called The Devil Wears Prada isn't awesome enough for you? At least choose a band that takes itself seriously.

The Devil Wears Prada gets huge props for stuff like that, but meh... it doesn't do it for me.

Sorry babe, but I'm more of a The Red in the Sky is Ours gal than a Slaughter of the Soul one.

For some reason, that song reminds me of Punk Music. It sounds nothing like Punk, so that's really weird.

[Makensha]

The Devil Wears Prada gets huge props for stuff like that, but meh... it doesn't do it for me.

I really don't know why. I can name a song And Then The Beat Drops... doesn't mean anything.

[zeratul]

Zer, check your stereotypes. No one in this thread is talking about emos. I haven't seen an honest-to-god emo kid in years; they all became hipsters while we weren't looking.

Well then you obviously haven't been spending much time in malls or high schools (not that I blame you, god knows that's the wise choice ). But yeah at least around here there's tons and tons of scene kids who are into screamo and metalcore. emo sort of transformed into this amorphis blob of whatever hot topic was promoting at the time, and that blob is still well and alive in America's high schools, it's unfortunately hard to kill.

Eh. I think that really limits Metal. I think it's really broadened to be a diverse genre and that limiting it to that prevents certain things it could easily express. Not to mention that leaving it at that can make it feel exclusionary towards a lot of female and queer Metal fans. Not to say that the whole leather vest thing can't look really damn awesome.

Which is slightly Ironic since the man to associate that sort of thing with metal originally is openly gay, and the whole leather 'n studs look is sort of taken from that culture. That said the metal culture seems to be getting more inclusive in girls of that respect, as girls have sort of developed their own metal norms in terms of dress.

[Moff Chumley]

I'm in an American public high school, breh. We have plenty of these kids, but they were never the Dashboard Confessional set. The scene kids were more Blink-182, weren't they?

Honestly, though, I still like Rite of Spring and At the Drive-In, so I guess my opinions of emo are a bit more favorable than the rest of this thread's...

[zeratul]

I'm in an American public high school, breh. We have plenty of these kids, but they were never the Dashboard Confessional set. The scene kids were more Blink-182, weren't they?

Honestly, though, I still like Rite of Spring and At the Drive-In, so I guess my opinions of emo are a bit more favorable than the rest of this thread's...

I'm actually rather into at the drive in. It's the black veil brides, blood on the dance floor, attack attack type crap that I hate. The scene kids here at least are mostly into bands of that ilk, particularly the first two.

[RedDeerJebediah]

Complaining about the American metal scene seems extraordinarily when you live in the festering musical cesspool that is Denmark The number of truly great bands from here that are at least somewhat established, metal or no, can be counted on one hand. I can't think of a single Danish metal band with a record deal that I actually like. It's really quite depressing. I know of several good underground sludge/post-metal bands, but Danish metalheads are generally just not into that sound... yet, at least.

On an entirely different note, one of my friends was on vacation in Hawaii recently. While hanging out on the beach, he ran into some friendly guys who immediately took a liking to him. After hanging out on the beach for a while they told him they were a band on tour, and invited him to a concert that evening. He didn't think their music was anything special, so when he showed it to me I was in for quite a surprise...

Behold: Hunab Ku

It's based quite a bit on the whole Mike Patton/John Zorn/Naked City schizophrenic technical metal/grindcore/jazz sound, so if you're not into that sound you probably won't like it. The guitar work is a bit too wanky at times for my tastes (too much sweep picking), but overall I think it's put together pretty well. They're definitely unusually accomplished in terms of technique for a band you meet randomly on a Hawaiian beach

[Dada]

Complaining about the American metal scene seems extraordinarily when you live in the festering musical cesspool that is Denmark The number of truly great bands from here that are at least somewhat established, metal or no, can be counted on one hand. I can't think of a single Danish metal band with a record deal that I actually like. It's really quite depressing. I know of several good underground sludge/post-metal bands, but Danish metalheads are generally just not into that sound... yet, at least.

Please, do share

[Nameless]

I was just making that joke because It's easy and I found it amusing at the time. I have no problem with LGBT individuals, but seriously the skinny jeans trend needs to die already. Also, what toasty said.

Hey! I wear skinny jeans.

[Faulty]

So I'm gonna start blogging about Black Metal in the near future, but for now I just want to say that Black Metal and Grind are like... the best things ever.

[toasty]

So Symphony X, Powerglove and Blackguard (and 2 other random bands which I may or may not enjoy or even see... I could care less) tonight. I hope to be mega sore.

[Faulty]

So I have indeed started blogging about Black Metal. The first post is on a current favorite, S.V.E.S.T., and will be followed up by a second post on their remaining material.

[Keld Denar]

So, Rammstein is about to go on and I'm about 15 feet from the stage. Woot! You guys might get pics.

[cleric_of_BANJO]

This conversation is a little counter-intuitive. First of all, it seems ridiculous that metal should be limited to being an all-masculine genre, for many reasons. First of all, the already mentioned fact that the 'metal look' that Halford created is completely opposite to that idea. Also, the nature of early metal was very anti-mainstream, which in many cases translates to non-masculine. For example, the use of high pitched vocals that many early metal bands had was supposed to break the norm, by mixing aggressive (masculine) music with high pitched (feminine) vocals. This was then exacerbated by bands like twisted sister.

In any case, metal was founded upon the idea that we need to break the mold. Although punk was more based on that, metal drew a lot of influence from it, and not being mainstream is something that symbolizes metal. Saying that we need to confine metal to only one type of look seems to be against all that metal stands for.

That being said, I do not listen to metalcore (i won't talk about screamo - since it's not metal, it doesn't belong in this thread), because I find that the vast majority of metalcore bands are unoriginal and boring. I need the music I listen to to both sound good and to be creative, and I don't think most metalcore achieves both of those (although there are certainly a few exceptions).

As for the metal scene not developing/evolving, I have to wholeheartedly disagree with that. Yeah, if you look at the most mainstream bands, they're all going to be very similar, but if you dig deeper, there is a lot of original metal out there. Whether it's post-sludge bands like Baroness, black metal like Moonsorrow, or whatever the heck you want to call Sigh, the past ten years have brought a lot of interesting evolution to the metal scene around the world. Just because popular metalcore bands aren't doing anything new doesn't mean other bands aren't.

[Faulty]

whatever the heck you want to call Sigh

Avant-Garde Black Metal maybe? Or WTF Metal.

[Keld Denar]

Rammstein pics. I was the 3rd body back from the rail. I couldn't get any closer, not that I didn't try. The concert was epic. There was so much fire, I'm surprised I still have eyebrows!

Engel

Spoiler

Show

FIRE!!!

Spoiler

Show

I wish I would have gotten more, especially during Benzin when he discharged a flame thrower over the crowd, and the two guitarists had what looked like blow torches attached at different points along their shoulders, or during P**** when he mounted a giant, rather phalic looking cannon and shot foam out over the croud, soaking the entire front row (myself included). That actually felt good, though, and helped deal with the smell of sweaty moshpitters all around me!

[Killer Angel]

A little late, but still...

There's plenty of amazing American metal; just because it's unpopular doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I happen to prefer American metal to European metal. Most of you clearly don't share that opinion. Our metal, such as it were, is not less "metal" than your metal.

I'm more for european HM, but I agree with Moff

As for the other stuff, I'd totally agree that powermetal and black metal and such aren't always to be taken seriously (although sometimes they can be, varies song to song) but that doesn't make them any worse.

We have a similar discussion some time ago... and indeed, many bands are not to be taken seriously: they play seriously, but the attitude is clearly "let's also have fun". See Anthrax (Spreading the disease and the skate/bermuda look), Manowar (death to false metal), and so on.
They cannot to be taken seriously, but this doesn't absolutely diminish their quality.

[Nameless]

Rammstein pics. I was the 3rd body back from the rail. I couldn't get any closer, not that I didn't try. The concert was epic. There was so much fire, I'm surprised I still have eyebrows!

Engel

Spoiler

Show

FIRE!!!

Spoiler

Show

I wish I would have gotten more, especially during Benzin when he discharged a flame thrower over the crowd, and the two guitarists had what looked like blow torches attached at different points along their shoulders, or during P**** when he mounted a giant, rather phalic looking cannon and shot foam out over the croud, soaking the entire front row (myself included). That actually felt good, though, and helped deal with the smell of sweaty moshpitters all around me!

So jealous. So very jealous.

Avant-Garde Black Metal maybe? Or WTF Metal.

Avant Garde Black Metal is awesome. Especially Progressive Post-Rock Black Metal Shoegaze Give-me-more-sub-genres.

[Faulty]

Avant Garde Black Metal is awesome. Especially Progressive Post-Rock Black Metal Shoegaze Give-me-more-sub-genres.

Speaking of Avant-Garde/Post-Black Metal, I have a new post up on my blog about Code. I'd love to hear what ya'll have to say about my posting thus far, presuming you've read the blog of course.

Anyway Nameless, have you listened to Lantlôs? They may suit your tastes.

[Nameless]

Speaking of Avant-Garde/Post-Black Metal, I have a new post up on my blog about Code. I'd love to hear what ya'll have to say about my posting thus far, presuming you've read the blog of course.

Anyway Nameless, have you listened to Lantlôs? They may suit your tastes.

Huh, I've never heard of Code before. They sound pretty awesome. I actually really enjoyed the stuff from their first album.

And yes, I have. I came across then once whilest listening to Onryo.

[eyeofsaulot]

So I have indeed started blogging about Black Metal. The first post is on a current favorite, S.V.E.S.T., and will be followed up by a second post on their remaining material.

I had heard of S.V.E.S.T. before, mostly because they'd occasionally pop up when I was looking up information about the black metal band Urfaust, but I never bothered checking them out. Now I'm intrigued.

[Faulty]

I had heard of S.V.E.S.T. before, mostly because they'd occasionally pop up when I was looking up information about the black metal band Urfaust, but I never bothered checking them out. Now I'm intrigued.

Urfaust (the band) are fabulous. I'm hoping to write about them at some point. I first heard them on their split with The Ruins of Beverast, and since then have become specifically fond of Der freiwillige Bettler.