3.5 Wizard vs Fighter

[RaggedAngel]

A friend of mine who has been playing 3.5 for several years said something to me that surprised me a bit, after all the time I've spent on these forums: "The fighter may not be as versatile as the wizard, but a good fighter is always better than a good wizard at melee combat."

Now, my friend is not an optimizer, and he plays mostly due to flavor; I respect that, and he's fun to play with. That said, I want to give him a clear demonstration that a Wizard can beat a Fighter at straight-up, direct melee confrontation.

Here is the challenge:

We are going to build a Wizard 20 and a Fighter 20 using the srd, the Completes, the Spell Compendium, and the Magic Item Compendium. We cannot use any Prc's, dips, or ACF's; the point is to show that a standard Wizard can beat a standard Fighter. All the Wizard gets is spells, and all the Fighter gets is feats.

There are four challenges, and the characters start each challenge with the exact same build.

1. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Wizard goes first.

2. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Fighter goes first.

3. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed (the Fighter can drink potions or activate items, the Wizard can cast spells/drink potions), Wizard goes first.

4. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed, Fighter goes first.

He will tweak the Fighter however he likes before the matches; that said, I doubt he'll do more than ensure I didn't sneakily gimp him. Again, he's not an optimizer; for the spirit of the challenge, however, I really do want the best Fighter we can build.

[MeeposFire]

You are going to run into a problem about what is exactly meant by better in melee combat. Fighters can be better in very niche areas (and fail at everything else) but that usually does not count in these discussions. In addition he may not be counting on a gish being able to fight and do other roles or if he is he may be discounting it for this conversation (and that is a gish strength).

The biggest strength a gish has is versatility. Trying to out damage a fighter (if that is what he meant) is dumb as all warrior types can find ways to deal stupid amounts of damage. What a gish brings is being able to do great melee damage while being able to do other things well which is worth a lot more.

[RaggedAngel]

You are going to run into a problem about what is exactly meant by better in melee combat. Fighters can be better in very niche areas (and fail at everything else) but that usually does not count in these discussions. In addition he may not be counting on a gish being able to fight and do other roles or if he is he may be discounting it for this conversation (and that is a gish strength).

The biggest strength a gish has is versatility. Trying to out damage a fighter (if that is what he meant) is dumb as all warrior types can find ways to deal stupid amounts of damage. What a gish brings is being able to do great melee damage while being able to do other things well which is worth a lot more.

Oh, he recognises that a Wizard has more versatility. The point that I'm trying to make is that in a straight, brutal fight, a wizard still has the upper hand. I'm trying to show that a Fighter build only for this one single fight is still not as good at hurting a Wizard who could change out all his spells tomorrow.

[Retech]

Are you allowed to use spells even in a straight-up melee confrontation?

Say, casting defensively or something while spamming time stop and magic missles?

[Z3ro]

My predictions, variable given your level of skill:

1. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Wizard goes first.

Depending on what you do with your round, you should win. If you waste your round with the wrong buffs and he charges, you could lose (I'd put his victory chance at 5%)

2. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Fighter goes first.

Depending on your gear selection, this could be the hardest fight. He rushes you and depending on if he can a) hit you and b) do enough damage to take you down he could win. If you assume all day buffs are up his chances go down significantly. I'd give him 40% chance to win.

3. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed (the Fighter can drink potions or activate items, the Wizard can cast spells/drink potions), Wizard goes first.

He has zero chance to win.

4. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed, Fighter goes first.

He has zero chance to win.

[MeeposFire]

Oh, he recognises that a Wizard has more versatility. The point that I'm trying to make is that in a straight, brutal fight, a wizard still has the upper hand. I'm trying to show that a Fighter build only for this one single fight is still not as good at hurting a Wizard who could change out all his spells tomorrow.

In a straight brutal fight the answer is "who wins initiative". One hit from an OP charge attack will kill the other so who attacks first wins. I would give a slight edge to the caster due to slightly easier to boost initiative. I am not sure how this proves anything though.

Seriously though all you can even prove doing this is a "this build is better than your build" and this is assuming the other player can build an effective fighter which is much harder than building an effective gish.

[NeoSeraphi]

A gish is a combination, a straight Wizard 20 is going to have a hard time besting a fighter due to its BAB and lack of offensive capabilities. A good start would be Shapechange, allowing you to transform into something with higher AC and more damaging melee attacks, but that 20d4 and poor BAB will still be a big concern.

Powerful buff spells that will save you are Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, Greater Mage Armor, fly, and haste

If it is not just straight melee combat (as in, you can cast spells after you start), then baleful polymorph is a key winner. Other spells that will devastate him are escalating enfeeblement (Complete Mage), disintegrate (targeting weapon or armor), slow, ray of exhaustion (without the ability to charge, you have plenty of room to debuff and run until you're ready to kill him)

[JaronK]

Are you allowed to do things like have animate dead minions (hey, they're melee) and similar?

Either way, Shapechange into a Dire Tortoise so you get to go first always. Rolling initiative is for suckers.

JaronK

[Retech]

I think it would be better to have four fights, two unbuffed and two buffed, but you have to roll for initiative.

Then crush the crap out of the fighter with all the wizard initiative boosters and win. (If you're using WBL, use the fact that you are a wizard and get item creation feats so that you can get twice as many things)

[Daremonai]

If the Wizard goes first, he casts Time Stop, and proceeds to win from there.

If the Fighter goes first, the Wizard casts Celerity, then Time Stop, and proceeds to win from there.

[JonestheSpy]

Well this has been discussed a bunch, but I'll recap the most important point (in my humble opinion): Even disregarding the power of specific spells, wizard (or any other primary caster) vs fighter duels always give a huge advantage to the wizard because they are free to blow all their spells in one fight. Fighters are designed to be able to use their abilities as often as they please (with the additional assumption that there's usually a cleric or similar in the party to keep their hit point total up) while casters need to ration their spells throughout the day, knowing that there will be multiple challenges that they will have to deal with.

If you really want to judge their respective ability, instead of fighting each other you should have them fight four separate battles against appropriately powered foes, with a limited amount of healing to divvy up between the fights.

EDIT:

If the Fighter goes first, the Wizard casts Celerity, then Time Stop, and proceeds to win from there.

Which is why DM's who give a dang about game balance don't let cheesey nonsense like Celerity into their games.

[Eldariel]

All you need is Shapechange to win this anyways. You can certainly buff up your AC and miss chance further with a couple of spells (Time Stop -> Buff Machine) but meh. When it's allowed (when you're allowed to have buffs online - it lasts multiple weeks so it should be rather reliable), Contingency to Dimension Door on gesture/word works.

The "Unbuffed, Fighter Goes First" you'll probably lose if the Fighter is any good. It's also completely asinine since when your buffs last over 24 hours, there's 0 moments in his life when the Wizard would be unbuffed. But yeah, without any items or spells, 60' from a Fighter with Fighter somehow acting first, the Fighter is going to kill you. No, there's nothing to do about it; all things that enable acting as flat-footed are either spells or magic items and without either it's Game Over.


Unbuffed, Wizard Goes First (equally asinine, btw; Wizard is never unbuffed unless he just got hit by a Disjunction, in which case he'd be in combat and thus be able to rebuff immediately) you can just Time Stop and load up on all the usual stuff. Buffed, well, you have Contingency, Foresight, Moment of Prescience, Shapechange, Polymorph Any Object (it's a permanent effect so you can have it up at any point for a good defensive form, btw), etc.

[MeeposFire]

Notice how almost all the tips are about not walking up and beating the fighter at its own game? A gish is so good because you play like a gish not because you try to be a fighter. A gish trying to be a fighter is doing it wrong.

[Big Fau]

1. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Wizard goes first.

Force Cage, Quickened Invisibility. Fighter is now screwed over, and must Teleport 60ft to get to you (he cannot do so without using his Standard action). He cannot attack you either without True Seeing (which he won't have until the beginning of his next turn at minimum). Wizard effectively gets a free turn, enabling Time Stop.

Time Stop, game over as the Wizard now Force Cages him and Dimensional Anchors the area, preventing the Fighter from moving while the Wizard buffs up and murders the Fighter.

2. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Fighter goes first.

Fighter charges, one-shots the Wizard.

Cue Ring of Nine Lives, sparring the Wizard and buying the one turn he needs to Quicken Invisibility and cast Time Stop. Game over.

3. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed (the Fighter can drink potions or activate items, the Wizard can cast spells/drink potions), Wizard goes first.

See 1. Same scenario, only Mage's Disjunction is involved.

4. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed, Fighter goes first.

Wizard has Foresight and Moment of Prescience up. Fighter charges and misses due to MoP/Foresight, and the Wizard gets his turn. See 1.

[The Glyphstone]

Oddly enough, the Wizard can't Celerity to victory here, since it's a PHBII spell and not a Spell Compendium spell.

a Crafted Contingent Time Stop will work fine, though.

[NeoSeraphi]

If the Wizard goes first, he casts Time Stop, and proceeds to win from there.

If the Fighter goes first, the Wizard casts Celerity, then Time Stop, and proceeds to win from there.

All combatants begin the round as flat-footed until their first initiative. You can't make immediate actions while flat-footed. No celerity

[erikun]

I agree that "melee" ends up poorly defined in this situation. Sure, the Wizard could use a Contengency Time Stop to fit an immovable rod down the fighter's throat and a dozen Delayed Fireballs down his pants, but I don't think that counts much as melee. Neither would lobbing orbs at him, and some would question casting Shivering Touch as "melee combat".

Also note that, if your friend is tricky, he can use some of those abusive Wizard tricks against you. Scroll of Shapechange and enough cross classed UMD to use it? He'll then be able to make use of free Wishes each turn to get whatever buffs he wants, and will actually out-melee you in nearly any situation.

You'd be better off specifying exactly what you mean - Wizard abilities are better in melee combat than even Fighter abilities, and although the Fighter has a higher BAB and more feats, even the Wizard can make up the difference. (Point out that a Wizard can cast Anyspell for Divine Power to overcome the BAB problem, for example.)


There's nothing wrong with a little PvP if you two are interested in it, it just won't prove much of anything - certainly not anything about the classes in question.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Do Shapechange and Tenser's transformation work together? If so...

[JaronK]

Shapechange + Contingency should mean that at no point does the Fighter's initiative matter. If he gets to roll initiative, you've already screwed up.

JaronK

[RaggedAngel]

Are you allowed to use spells even in a straight-up melee confrontation?

Say, casting defensively or something while spamming time stop and magic missles?

Hm. Well, Time Stop should certainly be used for buffing, but I'm trying to show that a wizard can out-fight the fighter. That said, most of the damage should come from the wizard hitting the fighter with a weapon.

Basically, I want less "I Gate in a Solar" and more "I Shapechange into a Balor, then hit you with my lightning-bolt-Balor-sword."

Remember that we don't have any loose xp; we are exactly at level 20.

[Knaight]

Crafted Contingent Time Stop will work fine, though.

Or any crafted contingent spell that gets you out of range effectively.

On a side note, winning with only buff and debuff spells and actual weapon use will more effectively prove a point. As such, loading up with defenses until you are nearly impossible to hit, hitting the fighter with disjunction, and cutting them down with a sword should be the tactic of choice, it better proves a point.

[Cerlis]

first i was going to say if its melee then shouldnt they start in each others faces? being better at melee combat means that when a giant scary alien jumps in your face, you can proceed to grab it by the head and throw it on the ground and pound it (see Aliens vs Predators)

and i think Jones has a good point.

if your adamant about the duel i guess this is spam, but if you can be changed then i'd suggest...

that instead of a duel, that you choose 4 different kinds of melee centered monsters (ones who will charge you and choose to rip your face off, not hide and snipe or Crowd control). you could have ones that are undead (what with negative levels, fear auras ect), thena demon. maybe a magical beast with weird abilities. and have them each fight each in melee (wizard using buffs and magical protection to go into melee). and basically judge each fight. So you might have Fighter has trouble all 4 fights, but wizard dies in 4th cus he used all his spells. or you might have some other situation where a wizard has enough cleverness to deal with each monster in a melee, but magical way. heal after each fight but no spell regeneration

but that might be a bad idea, i dont know. Main point is that various testing that all meets the criteria might get better results.


--------------

ps wouldnt a contigient timestop be like a 10th or higher lvl spell?

[MeeposFire]

Or any crafted contingent spell that gets you out of range effectively.

On a side note, winning with only buff and debuff spells and actual weapon use will more effectively prove a point. As such, loading up with defenses until you are nearly impossible to hit, hitting the fighter with disjunction, and cutting them down with a sword should be the tactic of choice, it better proves a point.

Actually by doing this you would be missing the point. He would say you magicked him to a point of no good rather than just beating him to death. I am certain that the player would not accept anything other than being beat down in melee without having spells cast at the fighter.

This is still a scenario of initiative as whoever goes first wins.

[Big Fau]

Hm. Well, Time Stop should certainly be used for buffing, but I'm trying to show that a wizard can out-fight the fighter. That said, most of the damage should come from the wizard hitting the fighter with a weapon.

Basically, I want less "I Gate in a Solar" and more "I Shapechange into a Balor, then hit you with my lightning-bolt-Balor-sword."

Remember that we don't have any loose xp; we are exactly at level 20.

See my post, above. I didn't meant to avoid Gate and Shapechange, but they aren't really needed even if the Wizard somehow gets charged and killed in the first round (Ring of Nine Lives, MiC).

[MeeposFire]

See my post, above. I didn't meant to avoid Gate and Shapechange, but they aren't really needed even if the Wizard somehow gets charged and killed in the first round (Ring of Nine Lives, MiC).

All that proves is that Ro9L is a great item in a duel. I am sure the player would say he was victorious since you did die once.

[Eldariel]

Notice how almost all the tips are about not walking up and beating the fighter at its own game?

The tips are centered around getting the time to buff up in cases where you're randomly deprived of your all day buffs to actually fight. It's obvious if Wizard doesn't ever cast a spell or use an item he's going to lose; his base stats aren't as high as a Fighter's. Some of these formats place asinine restrictions on what the Wizard can have in place ("the buff only lasts 24 hours"), so you need to ensure you get the time to cast your buffs before you can proceed to rip the Fighter a new one in melee.

Like, the appropriate sequence is: "Shapechange into Choker, use your extra Standard Action to Time Stop, cast like Mage Armor, Shield, Heroism, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon on anything you intend on using, Greater Invisibility, Displacement, etc. and turn into like Pit Fiend or Nightcrawler or whatevs and fight with your ~60ish AC, +40 to hit, Invisibility, Displacement and all the good stuff" - oh, and you can of course use spells like Heroics to get even more done.

[dextercorvia]

There was a level 5 Wizard vs. Fighter fighting dual a while back. IIRC, The Wizard (Koury?) did fairly well.

[NeoSeraphi]

You know what a great spell for this kind of thing is? Entice Gift, from Spell Compendium. Getting the fighter to give you whatever he's holding will force him to get out a new weapon or attempt to take yours back. Either way he's wasting an action (Unless he has the Quick Draw feat, in which case, he's prepared and spent what could have been a good melee feat on an emergency weapon replacement)

Again, disintegrate is also good for this. He's not a monk, and unless he wants to waste his first round (and greatest chance of beating you) his best and most expensive +10 sword is going to be what he has drawn. Take that out and you'll have crippled him harshly.

Or, if you really want to drive in how a melee-dependent class is inferior, Sunder his weapon in melee, then toss your sword aside (so you're both unarmed) and then cast Shapechange and watch him run away without his sword.

But you know, that's only if you think the risk of losing by attempting to Sunder is really worth the pay-out humiliation (I definitely think it is)

[MeeposFire]

The tips are centered around getting the time to buff up in cases where you're randomly deprived of your all day buffs to actually fight. It's obvious if Wizard doesn't ever cast a spell or use an item he's going to lose; his base stats aren't as high as a Fighter's. Some of these formats place asinine restrictions on what the Wizard can have in place ("the buff only lasts 24 hours"), so you need to ensure you get the time to cast your buffs before you can proceed to rip the Fighter a new one in melee.

Like, the appropriate sequence is: "Shapechange into Choker, use your extra Standard Action to Time Stop, cast like Mage Armor, Shield, Heroism, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon on anything you intend on using, Greater Invisibility, Displacement, etc. and turn into like Pit Fiend or Nightcrawler or whatevs and fight with your ~60ish AC, +40 to hit, Invisibility, Displacement and all the good stuff" - oh, and you can of course use spells like Heroics to get even more done.

Assuming this player has any intelligence what so ever he will have the mage slayer line. In doing he would ignore all the spells you listed except for heroism and greater magic weapon. He would also ignore the AC bonus from shape change and in one hit would dispel shapechange, haste, and every other spell that boosts AC. So your buffs are mostly a waste.

Further I would be willing to accept wizards being wizards in a duel but that is not what this is about. The gauntlet that has been thrown is the idea that the wizard can beat the fighter at being a beat stick while not acting particulary wizardish (that last part is an assumption since the person who made the statement is not here to clarify for sure but if he does allow a caster to be a caster the caster wins always).

[dextercorvia]

You know what a great spell for this kind of thing is? Entice Gift, from Spell Compendium. Getting the fighter to give you whatever he's holding will force him to get out a new weapon or attempt to take yours back. Either way he's wasting an action (Unless he has the Quick Draw feat, in which case, he's prepared and spent what could have been a good melee feat on an emergency weapon replacement)

Again, disintegrate is also good for this. He's not a monk, and unless he wants to waste his first round (and greatest chance of beating you) his best and most expensive +10 sword is going to be what he has drawn. Take that out and you'll have crippled him harshly.

Or, if you really want to drive in how a melee-dependent class is inferior, Sunder his weapon in melee, then toss your sword aside (so you're both unarmed) and then cast Shapechange and watch him run away without his sword.

But you know, that's only if you think the risk of losing by attempting to Sunder is really worth the pay-out humiliation (I definitely think it is)

Note that with Entice Gift you are trading actions, not wasting his. Also, drawing a weapon is a free action while moving for anyone with at least BAB +1.