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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Level 7 Maneuvers

    Desert Wind
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    Inferno Blade - Fire Resistance is becoming a bigger and bigger concern at higher levels, but 23+ extra damage on every attack of a full attack is still nothing to sneeze at.

    Salamander Charge - It's awesome, there's no doubt about that. Charging and literally leaving a wall of fire in your wake? Sweet. And the mere concept of a melee character shaping the battlefield is pretty novel, and the ability to charge with less restrictions is nifty. But I just don't think the wall of fire does enough damage to make this much better than Bounding Assault, which came six levels earlier.


    Diamond Mind
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    Quicksilver Motion - It looks like action economy-breaking awesomeness at first glance, but there are actually a number of items (not to mention the Hustle power) that can give you a move action (or at least let you move) as a swift action. And they're pretty affordable by this level. If you're playing in a low-item game, this maneuver could be upgraded.

    Avalanche of Blades - Without any special combos, this isn't really any better than a normal full attack, especially with a Swordsage's accuracy difficulties. Of course it gets a lot better if you combo it with Wraithstrike or Stormguard Warrior or something.


    Setting Sun
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    Hydra Slaying Strike - Ironically, this is technically worthless against Hydras. On the other hand, it's pretty much incredible against any other melee monster, such as Dragons.


    Shadow Hand
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    Shadow Blink - Every character (except maybe Wizards who already have Abrupt Jaunt) wants this. If only they had initiator level 13, they would use a feat to get it. (How the heck does it not have any prerequisites? Or a [Su] tag?)

    Death in the Dark - Almost as cool-sounding as "Stalker in the Night," and it does pretty decent damage at the level you get it. Too bad it offers a save.


    Stone Dragon
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    Ancient Mountain Hammer - See Elder Mountain Hammer. Again, nice but not crucial.

    Colossus Strike - As a Swordsage, you're much better off using the Setting Sun throws.


    Tiger Claw
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    Hamstring Attack - Unimpressive effect, and allows a save (Strength-based, no less).

    Swooping Dragon Strike - If you've focused on your Jump check, this is the maneuver where it pays off.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2010-12-31 at 06:19 PM.
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    ... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Level 8 Maneuvers

    Desert Wind
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    Wyrm's Fire - No. Just no.


    Diamond Mind
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    Diamond Defense - Now protect all of your Saves with one Readied Maneuver, or protect your Fortitude save twice.

    Diamond Nightmare Blade - Quadruple damage. I don't know what else to say.


    Setting Sun
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    Fool's Strike - Another of my very favorite maneuvers in the book, this would be a better color if it weren't paired with the Swordsage's Medium BAB. Still, a great choice, especially against foes who have lower attack bonuses on their iterative attacks.


    Shadow Hand
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    One with Shadow - Everything should be able to handle incorporeality by this level, but maybe not if they're caught by surprise. It's a good defensive move. Also, use it to walk through walls, or to make Greater Insightful Strikes as touch attacks.

    Enervating Shadow Strike - Negative Levels are fun, and never go out of style. But the Wizard could do this 8 levels ago, and with no Save.


    Stone Dragon
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    Adamantine Bones - Too little, too late. I'd rather use Hydra Slaying Strike if I'm about to take a full attack.

    Earthstrike Quake - I'm not impressed. If you're set on knocking a bunch of enemies prone, hold out for Tornado Throw.


    Tiger Claw
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    Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip - A very significant amount of damage for a TWF-er to add to his full attack. Of course, skip it if you're not TWF-ing.

    Raging Mongoose - Four extra attacks on a full attack, or on any Strike (Wolf Fang Strike? Time Stands Still?) that allows using both weapons? Halelujah. Even for a non-TWF-er I'd say this is awesome.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2011-01-01 at 11:26 PM.
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    ... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Level 9 Maneuvers

    Desert Wind
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    Inferno Blast - Eh, I'm sure the political power of being able to burn down an army, neighborhood, or village every 12 seconds must be immense. But against CR-appropriate monsters? This won't do much.


    Diamond Mind
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    Time Stands Still - Lots of attacks are the name of the game for a Swordsage, especially if you use two weapons and/or get Sneak Attack. Time Stands Still increases your output like nothing else.


    Setting Sun
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    Tornado Throw - Nothing says "epic monk is pwning you" like a good Tonado Throw, especially if the same opponent gets thrown over and over again (in one turn). (Hmm, use this maneuver in confined spaces?) On the other hand, the damage isn't really so impressive, and often the kinds of monsters you face at this level are too big to trip easily, or too big to trip at all, and don't come in the kinds of numbers that make this maneuver really impressive.


    Shadow Hand
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    Five-Shadow-Strike-of-Ridiculous-Name - Too random for my taste, but I've got to admit, regardless of the random outcome (or even whether the save is successful), this will do some nasty things.


    Stone Dragon
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    Mountain Tombstone Strike - Nice effect, no save, infamously has no prerequisites. Looks better on a Swordsage, since it's not sitting next to the equally-powerful Strike of Perfect Clarity.


    Tiger Claw
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    Feral Death Blow - Too many things can go wrong here, even though the Jump check should be easy. Full-round action. Target has to be vulnerable to crits. Allows a (Strength-based DC) save. Still, it is a save-twice-or-die effect (with massive damage coming into play), and there's something to be said for that.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2010-12-31 at 06:34 PM.
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    ... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    ...Draz?
    You're awesome.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    I think Draz fell into a Fey Mood. Thankfully, he only asked for Internets, and not shells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    It doesn't so much as demean the celestial monkey's existence, so much as fulfill it. Without the ability to be summoned to set off traps, retrieve objects from dangerous situations, and all and all be a party's guinea pig, the Celestial Monkey would languish in obscurity in the MM and do nothing more legendary than eat celestial bananas.
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfin View Post
    ...Draz?
    You're awesome.
    I know.

    I'm done, by the way. Some other over-achiever can feel free to take over on Stances/Feats/etc.
    You can call me Draz.
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    Also of note:

    I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
    ... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Level 9 Maneuvers

    Desert Wind

    Diamond Mind

    Setting Sun

    Shadow Hand
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    Creeping-Ice-Five-Shadow-Enervating-Strike - Too random for my taste, but I've got to admit, regardless of the random outcome (or even whether the save is successful), this will do some nasty things.


    Stone Dragon

    Tiger Claw
    Some things about the shadow Hand 9th level maneuver

    • Fixed that for you
    • You forgot the reason to take the maneuver; the look on your DM's face when you announce "I initiate Creeping Ice Five Shadow Enervating Strike" on the BBEG/Dragon/ETC. (note for maximum effect yell IC and OOC)


    I would give you an internet; but I lost my internet saving on the great internet crash
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Another problem with inferno blast - it is near impossible to aim properly. Being a burst centered on you, you will inevitably end up nuking the rest of your party in the process.

    One with shadow has another benefit which is not readily apparent. From the SRD,
    An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it.
    Meaning your attacks are touch attacks, assuming you are willing to spring for a ghost touch weapon (otherwise you incur a 50% miss chance). Unfortunately, you lose your str score, which means you cannot combine diamond nightmare blade with a full-out power attack.

    Firesnake - I have found it is nice for selectively hitting multiple foes, though the damage sucks (and that is before save and fire resistance!). I thought the text was quite clear on how it worked.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    Meaning your attacks are touch attacks, assuming you are willing to spring for a ghost touch weapon (otherwise you incur a 50% miss chance). Unfortunately, you lose your str score, which means you cannot combine diamond nightmare blade with a full-out power attack.
    Incorporeal/Ghost Touch doesn't work that way. /morbo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    It doesn't so much as demean the celestial monkey's existence, so much as fulfill it. Without the ability to be summoned to set off traps, retrieve objects from dangerous situations, and all and all be a party's guinea pig, the Celestial Monkey would languish in obscurity in the MM and do nothing more legendary than eat celestial bananas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard View Post
    Incorporeal/Ghost Touch doesn't work that way. /morbo.
    I was going off the rules compendium ruling.

    Nonmagical attacks made by an incorporeal creature with a melee weapon have no effect on corporeal targets, and any melee attack an incorporeal creature makes with a magic weapon against a corporeal target has a 50% miss chance, except for attacks it makes with a ghost touch weapon, which are made normally (no miss chance).
    Last edited by Runestar; 2011-01-01 at 06:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    One with shadow has another benefit which is not readily apparent. From the SRD,
    Meaning your attacks are touch attacks, assuming you are willing to spring for a ghost touch weapon (otherwise you incur a 50% miss chance).
    Problem: One with Shadow has a duration "until the start of your next turn." And I don't think you can use immediate actions on your turn, can you? (If you can, that certainly means One with Shadow is better than I thought!) So getting any attacks while it is active, other than attacks of opportunity, isn't trivial.
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    ... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.

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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Minor disagreement on the 1st level ones:

    Charging Minotaur - Sure, the bull rush effect is somewhat mediocre. But it ignores AoOs for movement! Need to get past a bunch of foes? Charging Minotaur somebody on the other side. Like a super-Tumble with a free (if not too effective) attack.

    Sudden Leap - Even if you have no investment into Jump, this is ~10' swift action movement - probably as good as you'll get at low level, and enough to turn a 5' step into "out of full-attack range". If you have, say, Boots of Striding and Springing for the movement boost, then we're talking 20'.

    Shadow Blade Technique - This is much better than Clinging Shadow Strike. Whether it should be cyan or CSS should be black, I don't know, but it does the same bonus damage, significantly increases your chance to hit, and increases your chance to crit, at the expense of a really crappy debuff.

    Distracting Ember - I'd call this 'meh'. There are a lot of manuevers that enable SA, and this one doesn't do much else. It doesn't even stick around long enough for an enemy to waste attacks on it, and you can't help allies unless they specially ready for the opportunity.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2011-01-01 at 04:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Sudden Leap - Even if you have no investment into Jump, this is ~10' swift action movement
    If you've no investment in Jump, you'll need quite a high strength to make DC 20 check with any reliability.

    That reminds me, an item most swordsages will want is the Boots of Agile Leaping from MIC, which allow you to use dex instead of str for Jump checks, and you can stand up from prone as a swift action. That's quite a bargain for 600 gp.
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    You may also wish to point out that since swordsages are more likely to invest in dex over str compared to crusaders or warblades, those maneuvers with a DC based off str are less useful, such as feral death strike.

    Also, anyone have any combos for spike damage they wish to share? I have one which is quite useful for one-shotting fatties.

    Swordsage5+ - In assassin's strike with shadow blade, burning blade+flashing sun+haste gives you 3 attacks, each of which does 2d6 sneak attack, 1d6+5 fire and +dex mod damage. You are averaging 25 damage per hit.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    You may also wish to point out that since swordsages are more likely to invest in dex over str compared to crusaders or warblades, those maneuvers with a DC based off str are less useful, such as feral death strike.

    Also, anyone have any combos for spike damage they wish to share? I have one which is quite useful for one-shotting fatties.

    Swordsage5+ - In assassin's strike with shadow blade, burning blade+flashing sun+haste gives you 3 attacks, each of which does 2d6 sneak attack, 1d6+5 fire and +dex mod damage. You are averaging 25 damage per hit.
    Add Insightful Strike Desert Wind to add wisdom modifier as bonus damage.
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by 2xMachina View Post
    [Immediate Action stuff]
    Cool, One with Shadow should be upgraded to cyan then. This also means it can let you walk through walls, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Shadow Blade Technique - This is much better than Clinging Shadow Strike. Whether it should be cyan or CSS should be black, I don't know, but it does the same bonus damage, significantly increases your chance to hit, and increases your chance to crit, at the expense of a really crappy debuff.
    Thing is, it only sometimes does the bonus damage (i.e. when you roll both attacks high enough that you can use the lower attack number and still hit).
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    ... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    But that's still better than not hitting at all, which you would have done with only one attack roll.

    Well, more accurately (H = hit change, D = base damage):
    CSS = H(W + 3.5)
    SBT = (1 - (1-H)^2)W + 3.5H^2
    So if your base damage is at all decent, and/or the chance to hit is low, then SBT wins.

    If you've no investment in Jump, you'll need quite a high strength to make DC 20 check with any reliability.
    Forgot about the halving. Still, even 5' is often enough to move out of full-attack range.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2011-01-02 at 01:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Been looking forward to this handbook for some time, can't wait to see it finished.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Sorry about the long hiatus there! Don't worry, I haven't shelved the project; thanks for the nudge. I'll get right back to it - expect further updates later today.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Sweet. I'm actually building a swordsage for an upcoming campaign I'm hoping to get into. This guide has been helpful.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfin View Post
    I'll get right back to it - expect further updates later today.
    ...Or not. Many apologies for the delay, but fundamentals and class features are now on deck.
    Last edited by Elfin; 2011-01-22 at 04:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    1: Mountain Tombstone Strike's and Stone Dragon menuvers' prereqs are misleading. Tome of Battle 81 states:

    "Unlike with other disciplines, adepts of this school rely on an external force- the power of earth and stone- to help power their maneuvers.... Stone Dragon maneuvers maneuvers can only be initiated if you are in contact with the ground."

    Meaning, at levels 1 and 2 when almost no one has fly, levitate, alter self, or the like, Stone Dragon has no additional requirement. Later, when you should be flying or swimming,

    2: I can't easily tell, just by skimming, where the disciplines change. Please make it obvious, like so:

    Desert Wind

    3: Boulder Roll gets another drawback. It's a full round boost, making it almost impossible to use! Even worse, your opponent can just choose to ignore you! Ick. Ick. Ick!

    4: Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose let you attack as a siwft action. You need not make any other attacks in this round. For example, a Wizard/Swordsage/Jade Phoenix Mage may use Dancing Mongoose an an adjacent foe, Tumble away, then pelt his buddies with solid fog or Evard's black tentacles.

    5: Moment of Alacrity means that you will frequently go first on your second turn. Sometimes, this is quite useful. In a 1v1, taking two consecutive turns may mean you win. I always want this on my martial adepts. It should be at least blue.
    Last edited by Endarire; 2011-01-23 at 05:24 PM.
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Endarire View Post
    4: Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose let you attack as a siwft action. You need not make any other attacks in this round. For example, a Wizard/Swordsage/Jade Phoenix Mage may use Dancing Mongoose an an adjacent foe, Tumble away, then pelt his buddies with solid fog or Evard's black tentacles.
    While I agree with most of what you said, this is just... no. There are two holes in your argument.

    1. If the attacks are taken immediately, why does a duration have to be specified?
    2. The attacks are explicitly called out as additional attacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dictionary
    ad·di·tion·al
    –adjective
    added; more; supplementary: additional information.
    They are extra attacks taken above and beyond your usual attacks, taken when you actually attack.
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    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Question regarding Cloak of Deception. It says you are invisible until the end of your current turn. Would you become visible when the next on the initiative stack goes? I think this is it, but I am not 100% certain.

    Thanks in advance
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by bartman View Post
    Question regarding Cloak of Deception. It says you are invisible until the end of your current turn. Would you become visible when the next on the initiative stack goes? I think this is it, but I am not 100% certain.

    Thanks in advance
    Yeah, that's how it works.

    You:
    > Go invisible.
    > Shankshankshank
    > End turn, become visible.
    Next in Line:
    > Does whatever. Hits a dude in the face, presumably.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    It doesn't so much as demean the celestial monkey's existence, so much as fulfill it. Without the ability to be summoned to set off traps, retrieve objects from dangerous situations, and all and all be a party's guinea pig, the Celestial Monkey would languish in obscurity in the MM and do nothing more legendary than eat celestial bananas.
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    While I agree with most of what you said, this is just... no. There are two holes in your argument.

    1. If the attacks are taken immediately, why does a duration have to be specified?
    2. The attacks are explicitly called out as additional attacks.

    They are extra attacks taken above and beyond your usual attacks, taken when you actually attack.
    I agree. While it can be any type of attack (standard, full attack, strike, or similar action that fulfills the term attack which is defined in ToB) you do need to attack before using that boost.

    For instance using mountain tombstone strike and then using raging mongoose on the target.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Could I use Dancing Mongoose before shooting someone with a scorching ray, since the spell requires an accuracy roll?
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    If you were intending to get more attacks with your scorching ray, no, that wouldn't work.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

    Quote Originally Posted by Endarire View Post
    Could I use Dancing Mongoose before shooting someone with a scorching ray, since the spell requires an accuracy roll?
    Emphasis mine.

    Wait, there's seriously a Tome of Battle maneuver called Dancing Mongoose? Awesome.
    And wait, there's Raging Mongoose as well! Even more awesome!

    Anyway, I thought I'd step in to show my support for this thread, as well as the other awesome ToB Handbooks for the Crusader and Warblade classes. I look forward to the completion of this project.
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