Wait, what? Divine Might Pally Build Questions

[Jarl is Jarl]

Ugh. My brain hurts. I've been invited to play a Pathfinder-Eberron email campaign (~10 players) so, having not played D&D for decades, I did some homework.

Now I have analysis paralysis. As a WoW player I got carried away researching min/max, and there's just so many feats, book editions, outdated threads, etc. I looked at Cavalier, Low Templar, Knight Protector and some others, but I actually like vanilla Paladin for what I want to do.

My problem(s):

• Research burnout/fog
• I don't know what to expect from middle and higher level encounters, so it's hard to foresee build shortcomings.
• I have the new Pathfinder Core Rules and older Complete XX books (and forum posts) and I got all confused with the Turn-Undead-is-now-Channel switcheroo.
• I was abandoning Divine Might and other feats that were based on Turn Undead for things like Leap, Power Attack, Cleave-chain, but it appears Divine XX feats are now Channel based and still valid (?)

I don't know what's current and what's invalid and I'm out of time. I've blown a good week trying to come up to speed, but I have to quit stalling and finalize my character, so I'm looking for some guidance.

My GM hinted that Cavalier may be too mount dependent, so I'm guessing I shouldn't do a mount build. I've read (and lost track of) a thread where you can drop mount abilities for unmounted variants. Should I take the vanilla paladin mount as is and focus on a charge variant, or ?

Here's where I was going before I (think) I realized Divine XX is still useful:

Human Paladin Lvl 3. I'm interested in valorous sword-and-board melee, damage soaking with group heals/buffs.

$2000 starting cash.

Pathfinder Ability buy: 25, and point cost:
7 -4 13 3
8 -2 14 5
9 -1 15 7
10 0 16 10
11 1 17 13
12 2 18 17


Attribs:
Cha 20 after+4 bonus buys. Let's see what Cha can do!
Str 15 Should I stack Str or Wis now?
Con 16
Wis 12 Why is Wis important for Pally's again?
Int 8 Going to let the party do skill work for now.
Dex 8 Divine Shield and tankness enough to counter low dex?


Feats:
I think I have it narrowed between a power attack/cleave-chain build and a Divine Might, Divine XX and Smite stuff build, but I'm overwhelmed atm.

(can you combine leap attack, power attack and Divine Might?)

1- Leap Attack, power attack (bastard sw, ruled martial)
3 - Extra Channel
6 - Cleave
9 - Great Cleave
? Left open for future research. Divine Shield, Divine Might, Smite stuff??
?
?

Skills
Base, plus Intimidate and Jump (Leap Attack).

Thanks!

Ooh, and one more question: When buying attribute points, which is better generally: Buying high scores that reduce your overall pool of points, or maximizing your pool with 14's and 13's?

[Optimystik]

Ooh, and one more question: When buying attribute points, which is better generally: Buying high scores that reduce your overall pool of points, or maximizing your pool with 14's and 13's?

Its best to focus on one or at most two. Jack of all trades, master of none.

Plus, its easier to compensate for a couple of weak ability scores, than to boost a myriad of mediocre ones.

[jiriku]

A couple of thoughts:

1) Skip Great Cleave. You can do better. How about Extra Smiting, to leverage your high Charisma?
2) Neither of the builds you're planning works well with a shield. Consider getting a bigger weapon.
3) My favorite replacements for the paladin mount feature are underdark knight, from Dungeonscape, which grants you a series of movement-enhancing powers, and that thingamajig from PH2, which triples your bonus smite damage.
4) You need Wis to cast pally spells, but not very much. Stack Strength from now on.
5) Keep your Intimidate skill maxed out. Your high Charisma is begging to be used on a social skill, and you want some way to contribute when it's not necessary to bash heads.

[Adumbration]

Its best to focus on one or at most two. Jack of all trades, master of none.

Plus, its easier to compensate for a couple of weak ability scores, than to boost a myriad of mediocre ones.

True enough, although paladin is quite Multiple Ability Dependant, so you do need at least something in all the physical stats, wisdom and charisma. The only thing you can dump, really, is intelligence and even that isn't wise.

Belt of magnificence can be a great friend for a paladin, if you can afford it. (Miniatures handbook).

[tyckspoon]

Wis 12 Why is Wis important for Pally's again?

For the Pathfinder Paladin, it isn't. PF Paladin's spellcasting was changed to be based on Charisma, and that was the only mechanical need Paladins had for Wisdom. You may simply want your Paladin to be a decently wise being and put some points in there to reflect that, but in strict power terms you could dump Wisdom down along with Int and move the points into Str and/or Dex.

Edit: Agree with certain aspects of above posters. Ditch Extra Channel for Extra Smiting- as you level you will gain more uses of Lay on Hands anyway, which will give you more Channels, and you don't need the Channels for much of anything until you take some Divine (Whatever) feats. Meanwhile, Pathfinder improved Smite without giving you much more in the way of daily uses, so Extra Smiting will be very useful if you want to mark more than one target a day for Smiting or even just more than one target in a single fight. Also agree on not taking Great Cleave. Pathfinder Cleave is worth considering, but Great Cleave still requires fairly uncommon circumstances to make it worth the feat slot.

[Eldariel]

True enough, although paladin is quite Multiple Ability Dependant, so you do need at least something in all the physical stats, wisdom and charisma. The only thing you can dump, really, is intelligence and even that isn't wise.

Belt of magnificence can be a great friend for a paladin, if you can afford it. (Miniatures handbook).

Dex is relatively dumpable too, much in the same vein as with Cleric. Str, Cha & Con need to be high tho. And Int is kinda nice so you can actually get some damn skill points.

Leap Attack requires 9 ranks in Jump so cannot be taken before level 6. Cleave isn't that amazing; it's decent but definitely could do better. If you want a Paladin Charger, you could either go Mounted or on-Foot. Divine Might + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Smite = Quite a bit of damage. In such a case, taking Improved Bull Rush to qualify for Shock Trooper is like to be better than Cleave. This enables Shock Trooper on 6 and Leap Attack on 9. Note, I'm assuming you're using the 3.5 versions of said feats. Paladin-levels give you little later on; I suggest considering a PrC or just multiclass. Other classes can advance your Mount, though it's unlike to be a factor unless you're doing Mounted Charger.


Smite is kinda worse than Divine Might in the sense that your naturally high Charisma ensures you naturally have a ton of uses for Divine Might. Smite, though, is artificially capped at a very low number per day. So...yeah.

EDIT: Yeah, Wis was removed in PF; MB.

[Jarl is Jarl]

Thanks everyone! Good input.

3) ...and that thingamajig from PH2, which triples your bonus smite damage.

It appears you're talking about Charging Smite, ya? Done.

Wait a tick...

I was under the impression that people were trading their mount for the Charging Smite like it was a special variant, but it looks like I can just pick it up as a feat? I can't be certain because Google's being stubborn and not showing me the official description. Link anyone?

Not that this would be optimized, but couldn't I then choose the nifty summoned mount and still do a Smite build?

My GM also points out that I missed that I could choose Weapon Bond instead of a mount, so who here would rather have the sporty Weapon/Smite build verses a Smite build with the family-friendly mount option package?

[SurlySeraph]

I believe Charging Smite is just a variant, and you always have to trade your mount for it. If you want, there are other ways to get a mount, like the Draconic Cohort feat. Also, I think Charging Smite doubles your smite damage, rather than tripling it.

[Navigator]

As someone that has played a Paladin from low levels to epic, the best thing you can do is take Divine Might. Of course, that's assuming Charisma is your #1/#2 stat. You won't see the real power of this feat until you get multiple attacks per round, so waiting until 9th, or even 12th to pick it up is ok.

Your choice to focus on Charisma is fine, but the key to success of that route is divine feats.

As for Divine Shield, it's really questionable. A few points about this:

• It will be good in lower levels, so definitely consider it. This is a time when life is cheap, and using a standard action for +3 AC can be a really good idea.
• Later levels, probably 11+, you will find yourself using is much less, since getting in front of an enemy and hacking him up will (almost) always be much more important than a bump to AC.
• If your DM allows retraining, I would take Divine Shield for lower levels and swap it for Divine Might when you get your 3rd iterative attack.

Other Feats:

• If you're going all or mostly straight Paladin, Battle Blessing is a ridiculously important feat investment (Complete Champion).
• Awesome Smiting (Complete Champion) is a good investment, especially if you're focusing on your smiting abilities.
• Divine Vigor isn't bad, but is the best divine feat out there aside from Divine Might and Divine Shield.
• Screw Cleave. You have better things to take!
• I'm not a fan of Leap Attack, but has great synergy with the Charging Smite variant, which I recommend regardless.
• Take a look at Person Man's Guide to Melee Combos if you have some extra feat slots.

I would also highly recommend taking a look at Pious Templar in Complete Divine, and if you're a Human, Human Paragon gives you access to Use Magic Device as a class skill forever for a level dip.

Edit: Charging Smite increases your smite damage by +1/level on a charge, and if your target isn't evil, you don't lose your smiting attempt.

[Jarl is Jarl]

Take a look at Person Man's Guide to Melee Combos if you have some extra feat slots.

[sarcasm] Thanks a lot for giving me so much more to read. [/sarcasm]

[sincerity] Thanks a lot for giving me so much more to read. [/sincerity]

Pretty much shakes up what I was going for, right after promising to deliver my character today.

But in a good way. Back to work!

[Roderick_BR]

I have the new Pathfinder Core Rules and older Complete XX books (and forum posts) and I got all confused with the Turn-Undead-is-now-Channel switcheroo.

It's just a name change, to make it more generic than "turn undead" since evil clerics can "bolster unded", and a lot of feats and powers can be used on either.

I believe Charging Smite is just a variant, and you always have to trade your mount for it. If you want, there are other ways to get a mount, like the Draconic Cohort feat. Also, I think Charging Smite doubles your smite damage, rather than tripling it.

It says "add 2 more damage points for each paladin level", therefore people just says it tripple. Consider that a paladin mount is one of the best features he can have, so a power charge is fine as replacement.
Doesn't draconic cohort requires you to have a mount feature? I can't tell, as I'm AFB now.

Navigator's suggestion of feats are very good for paladins. No AoO nor losing actions to cast some minor healing/buffying, be able to churn out more damage on charges, and make sure that smite will NOT miss are always good. Double check it.

[ChakraChanter]

I remember someone posting a thread of how to trade your mount to a dragon mount. I don't have the link unfortunately, nor do I remember what books were cited But I'm sure that would be awesome

[Mongoose87]

Charging Smite variant isn't really a good idea. The Pathfinder Paladin smites a single target ALL DAY. That's better than for one charge.

[Navigator]

Charging Smite variant isn't really a good idea. The Pathfinder Paladin smites a single target ALL DAY. That's better than for one charge.

Charging Smite just trades your Special Mount, or in the case of Pathfinder, Divine Bond.

And honestly, after looking at Divine Bond, I wouldn't automatically pick up Charging Smite because the weapon enhancing abilities are pretty good. The list of special properties you can give your weapon is very impressive, and the ability is still usable if you cast greater magic weapon on your sword every day.

[SongCoyote]

It's amusing to be necro-posting in a Paladin thread :)

Anyway... just wanted to add that I've now run a Pathfinder Paladin specialized in causing massive Smite-crits to Evil to 10th level, and it's been a blast! Falchion with Crit Focus (because Bless Weapon, which auto-confirms crits vs. evil, doesn't work with Keen) means I'm a bit of a glass cannon, but Lay on Hands being a swift action for oneself means I can stand toe-to-toe with only occasional outside assistance. That, being able to casually manage a 72-pt attack of opportunity to a fiend last night.

Oh, and Half-Orc Ferocity is a great way for glass cannons to be a bit less fragile. All that and I have nice social skills, too, including Intimidate when I feel all growly rather than chop-y :) Enjoy your explorations into the holy warrior's quest to batter evil into little pieces!

Light and laughter,
SongCoyote

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Thread necromancy.