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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Hey new the forums.

    Starting a new 3.5 game tomorrow and Iíve decided that I want to be a necromancer. We are playing by gestalt rules I have to pick another class but I want necromancy to be the focal point. I also want to stick with 2 classes just for ease of book keeping. Originally I was thinking 20 dread necromancer// 20 Binder. However Iíve reading that clerics raise the dead just as well as dread necros and have better access to spells. So Iím at a loss. If any one has any ideas for two classes that can both provide rasing dead abilities while still being able to hold your own. Maybe dread//warblade, dread//cleric, dread//wiz, Cleric//Wiz ectÖ

    And incase I end up going Dread Necro heres a sample of what I was trying to go for with Dread//Binder Human 38 point buy

    18-Cha
    16-Dex
    12-Con
    14-Str
    10-Int
    10-Wis

    Note: I think binder pretty much takes care of itself

    Feats:
    1st: Tomb Tainted Soul, Corpse Crafter
    3rd: (not sure maybe maximize spell for maximized touch attks but seems useless at this level)
    6th: Destruction Retribution
    9th: (not sure maybe spell penetration)

    Main concerns are handling battle without undead supporting me (Low BAB and light armor sucks) and limited spell list just as a dread necro, weapon choice,ect... also any way to get acess to animate dead other than getting it at lv 8, kinda sucks being a dread necromancer and not be able to actually raise the dead until 8th level.
    Last edited by Spartan089; 2011-01-06 at 02:04 AM.

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    DaragosKitsune's Avatar

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Well, I'll address one of your main concerns right off the bat. As a necromancer, you should be in direct melee as little as possible. If you want melee, add Warblade. Also, don't be afraid to use prestige classes. Gestalt gives a lot of options, so your DN spells aren't your only resort. Consider at least two levels in Pale Master on the DN side of your build for free Animate Dead.
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    There's a guide to necromancy over here that, if you can get past the rhetoric, can be informative.

    Dread//Cleric is a fun build if you just want lots and lots of undead while not (quite) sacrificing melee survivability.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    I forgot to mention that our DM altered the gestalt rules. Basically at level one you chose both your classes but if you deviate and try to level up in something else you level up in that class and not another. Example would be after taking 2 classes in DN//Binder I decided to level up in cleric at 3rd but canít choose anything else to level with me including the base classes. Its one of the reasons why I wanted a straight 20//20 on both sides.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    So once you PrC out, you are no longer a Gestalt character?

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    You are just in the two original classes. so if your PrC out, next lv you can go back to the first two and gestalt.

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    DaragosKitsune's Avatar

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    DN//Binder/Ur-Priest1/Mystic Theurge
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    If the line between genius and madness is so thin...

    Then why do so few in this day and age toe said line?

    Thanks to Bongos for the v-13 avvie!

    I think the lesson that we can take away from this is that tentacles solve everything, and if you have a problem, then you just need more tentacles. - seadragonknight of the BG boards.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    One character that I'd love to play, but I never could because I have access to few DMs, none of which would go Gestalt, was a warforged Dread Necro/Artificer, for a master of the unliving kind of thing - undead and constructs galore.

    I'd suggest checking the rest of the players' characters before going definitive on class picks, just to ensure you stay on an approximate power level.
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Well the party consists of three, me, a warforged barbarian, and a druid wizard with a vow of poverty

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan089 View Post
    Well the party consists of three, me, a warforged barbarian, and a druid wizard with a vow of poverty
    in that case, the warforged drean necro//artificer is perfect, because you can buff the balls off of both warforged with your infusions.
    Thanks to araveugnitsuga for the awesome Warforged Artificer Avatar.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Depending on the druid/wiz skill, you might want to go cleric instead of dread necro. You can still go all-out necromancy, but you'll have power/versatility to not feel useless if the d/w bumps up the effectiveness.
    Morituri nolumus morit - We who are about to die... don't want to

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan089 View Post
    Main concerns are handling battle without undead supporting me (Low BAB and light armor sucks) and limited spell list just as a dread necro, weapon choice,ect... also any way to get acess to animate dead other than getting it at lv 8, kinda sucks being a dread necromancer and not be able to actually raise the dead until 8th level.
    My first suggestion would be to take one of the following feats (at first level, corpse crafter can wait until 3rd).

    Law Devotion, Chaos Devotion, Protection Devotion, Travel Devotion. (All in complete champ)

    Law or Chaos (Law is better but IDK your alignment) will raise your AC or to-hit for a fight. Protection gives a bonus to your entire party's AC which stacks with almost everything. Travel is good for attacking something and then moving away. All 4 last for a minute, and can be done additional times per day by spending turn attempts, which you should have in spades.

    Weapon choice? You want either a ranged weapon like longbow, or a reach weapon like glaive. Longbow keeps you out of combats, Glaive lets you intimidate opponents 10 feet away (good for fear stacking) and helps you get AoOs.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2011-01-06 at 01:54 PM.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Warblade is a great option 1-20. Sorcerer is good, more spells and more options. Duskblade turns you into a melee monster who channels necromancy into his sword. Mixes well with the dread necro self healing and DR.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Well first answering what Gnaeus asked, I'm going for a nuetral human, being a warforged neco artificer while being optimal and beastly doesn't really work out story or rp wise. I might just switch the main nceroing class to cleric after looking at it since cleric can cast necro spell and don't have to worry about arcane spell failure (yay divine) so a war blade/cleric would fit the mele aspects and still make me versitile, while best of all letting me get undead, how ever only problem is that its dependant on too many stats (wis for cleric, str for warblade, cha for keeping undead) though I guess I can circumvent the str by using cleric buffs. Though going that route I lose the ability to better amass and buff my undead as a dreadncero does. Maybe I can go DN//cleric since they both need high Charisma for rebuking and I would only need to dip into wisdom for my cleric spells.
    Last edited by Spartan089; 2011-01-06 at 10:21 PM.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan089 View Post
    Maybe I can go DN//cleric sincer they both need high Charisma for rebuking and I would only need to dip into wisdom for my cleric spells.
    Check w/ your DM. I would say that as a duplicated class feature, you couldn't get rebuking on both sides of your gestalt. As a neutral cleric, you could, however, turn undead on that side and rebuke on the other. YMMV.

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    DMofDarkness's Avatar

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan089 View Post
    Well first answering what Gnaeus asked, I'm going for a nuetral human, being a warforged neco artificer while being optimal and beastly doesn't really work out story or rp wise. I might just switch the main nceroing class to cleric after looking at it since cleric can cast necro spell and don't have to worry about arcane spell failure (yay divine) so a war blade/cleric would fit the mele aspects and still make me versitile, while best of all letting me get undead, how ever only problem is that its dependant on too many stats (wis for cleric, str for warblade, cha for keeping undead) though I guess I can circumvent the str by using cleric buffs. Though going that route I lose the ability to better amass and buff my undead as a dreadncero does. Maybe I can go DN//cleric sincer they both need high Charisma for rebuking and I would only need to dip into wisdom for my cleric spells.
    One idea might be to go Illumian for your race (From Races of Destiny). If you take as your two power runes Aesh and Krau, you get a +2 bonus to caster level (Cannot increase beyond your HD), +2 bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks, and, best of all, you can use your strength instead of your wisdom for the purposes of determining bonus spells per day. With that, you could become a buff-bot with an undead focus, with the warblade damage output. It lessens the strain of MAD a bit. In addition, when you die, you get to talk for one round/character level. In this time, (assuming your DM lets you,) you can direct your undead for possibly the remainder of the battle, and maybe give them instructions on how to ressurect you. Like, for instance, ordering them to mine some diamonds and deliver them to a predestined point every month. It could certainly be an interesting thing to try...
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    One idea might be to go Illumian for your race (From Races of Destiny). If you take as your two power runes Aesh and Krau, you get a +2 bonus to caster level (Cannot increase beyond your HD), +2 bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks, and, best of all, you can use your strength instead of your wisdom for the purposes of determining bonus spells per day. With that, you could become a buff-bot with an undead focus, with the warblade damage output. It lessens the strain of MAD a bit. In addition, when you die, you get to talk for one round/character level. In this time, (assuming your DM lets you,) you can direct your undead for possibly the remainder of the battle, and maybe give them instructions on how to ressurect you. Like, for instance, ordering them to mine some diamonds and deliver them to a predestined point every month. It could certainly be an interesting thing to try...
    Just looked at Illumian, though the basic gist of what you said was true it seems its only a +1 bonus to caster level (max equal to character level) and +1 to strength checks. Though my offensive spells still lack due to the low base wisdom score I wont be using those since clerics mainly buff themselves. I don't play clerics (or spellcasters for that matter) so Im basically new the spell casting system. Also don't I need 19 wisdom to cast up to 9th level spells or does the above trick circumvent that, I was under the impression from reading it that the strength score only counted towards bonus spells when using the Illumian template with Aeshkaru.
    Last edited by Spartan089; 2011-01-07 at 01:39 AM.

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    DMofDarkness's Avatar

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan089 View Post
    Just looked at Illumian, though the basic gist of what you said was true it seems its only a +1 bonus to caster level (max equal to charecter level) and +1 to strength checks. Though my offensive spells still lack due to the low base wisdom score I wont be using those since clerics mainly buff themselves. I dont play clerics (or spllcasters for that matter) so Im basicly new the spell casting system. Also dont I need 19 wisdom to cast up to 9th level spells or does the above trick circumvent that, I was under the impression from reading it that the strength score only counted towards bonus spells when using the Illumian template with Aeshkaru.
    Read the description closer. Namely, the second paragraph of the power sigils power. The bonus for both of them increases by 1. Also, I said that it helped ease the MAD, not completely remove it. This way, you can pump your Strength and still get extra healing, buffing, and ranged attack spells for the day. You still need 19 wisdom, yes- but with, say, a Periapt of Wisdom +4 or +6 (After reallocating the stats a bit), you could fix that. However, you can now pump your strength to get ridiculous levels and not worry as much about your wisdom. Keep in mind, though- you will not be able to use offensive spells well as a cleric with that configuration. You will still have a low save DC for your spells, which is why you should keep them to ranged touch-based attacks that deny the use of a save, or buffs to grant ridiculous levels of power to yourself. Use the bonus spell slots to get all-day buffs, or general undead-based spells. It's your choice, but it is good as long as you don't rely on save-or-suck spells.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Sorry about that should have read a bit closer, as always the advice helps and I thank you. I think theres alot of potential in this. If anything I wont really have to worry about offensive spells since Ill just be throwing my undead at the enemy while buffing myself as a cleric and buffing my undead as a dread necro.

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    I concur with you Spartan.

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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Help with gestalt Necromancer

    Wait. You have someone in the group with Vow of Poverty, which means they must be exalted, which means they can't party up with someone who uses undead. Remember, exalted is like Paladins, only even more so.

    So, you might want to make sure that's clear.

    With that said, Binder//Dread Necromancer is a solid gestalt combo. If you wanted raw power, Necromancer (UA Wizard Variant)//Archivist would be far stronger, but that might be too much for the group (Wizard//Druid is a silly combo since with Vow of Poverty he can't even have a spellbook and the Int/Wiz dependency sucks with VoP as well... what is that player thinking?).

    JaronK

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