Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

**true_shinken** · 2011-01-06, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XVII. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59pm CUT on Friday, January 14th 2010 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, true_shinken. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.

Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points.

I am going to have to ask the contestants to PM me about any disagreement with the judges. Under no circumstances is a contestant to defend themselves inside the thread, since it breaks anonymity.

Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

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NAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|

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|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

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[b]NAME OF ENTRY[/b]
{table=head][b]Level[/b]|[B]Class[/B]|[b]Base Attack<br>Bonus[/b]|[b]Fort Save[/b]|[b]Ref Save[/b]|[b]Will Save[/b]|[B]Skills[/B]|[B]Feats[/B]|[b]Class Features[/b]

1st|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)

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Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

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[b]Spells per day/Spells Known[/b]
{table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]0lvl[/b]|[b]1st[/b]|[b]2nd[/b]|[b]3rd[/b]|[b]4th[/b]|[b]5th[/b]|[b]6th[/b]|[b]7th[/b]|[b]8th[/b]|[b]9th[/b]

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

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For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for about 5 judges and as many contestants as feel like playing!

This week's special ingredient is:
Planar Handbook's Ardent Dilettante!
We will have trophies for 1st through 3rd places, as well as a special trophy for honorable mention. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.

Allez optimiser!

Judges
TG Oskar
Tam_Oconnor
vikingofdoom
OMGPonies

Contestants
Amphetryon
Zonugal
FishAreWet
TheGuildedDuke
Fearan
kestrel404
OMGPonies
monkeysammich
Ernir
Xodion
Urpriest
NoldorForce
Ingus
dextercorvia
Zaq
KitTheOdd

The Builds
Aesh Duan Dee
The Slide
Snow
Gabriella
Anette
Arleigh Skye
V'grax
"Hazy" Vernal Equinox
Designate 32-20-53-65-6e-73-65-73

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord
Iron Chef V: War Chanter
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo
Iron Chef XII: War Mind
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin

**T.G. Oskar** · 2011-01-06, 09:24 PM (ISO 8601)

Yuuuup, gonna be judging this one. Assassin was quite hard to deal with, but it was something that was easy to work with (and darn, it was complicated to judge, even though I was a competitor!).

But this? With the scaled progression? This is gonna be a challenge for the chefs. And why not judge a PrC that relates to exploring sensory experiences?

Will keep the guidelines as a secret, but one thing's for certain: so as long as the competition doesn't provide with an "allowance" in magic items, I don't partake of building stuff through Magic Items. The severity of the penalty comes with the severity of how I visualize the creature's dependance on magic items. I find those in the competition as stuff that just modifies the flavor of the build, and doesn't allow the build to flourish. However, if the class provides or requires a magic item, I will consider it.

Other than that, surprise me. This is a really hard PrC to work with.

**Amphetryon** · 2011-01-06, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)

I'll compete, though as has been said earlier about this PrC, I worry that with the increasing difficulty of staying in the class, the builds will ultimately be more about qualifying than anything else.

**bartman** · 2011-01-06, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)

Wow, I was considering maybe entering this one as a competitor, even though I am nowhere on the level of optimization I have seen on here, but after taking a look at the SI, well, only 2 words... holy crap....

I have never seen a prestige class so hard to qualify for...

ok, thats my 2 cents, thats all, you may continue on with your competition.

**Zonugal** · 2011-01-06, 10:20 PM (ISO 8601)

I'm on-call this entire weekend for my job so I'll throw my hat into the ring.

Certainly a very difficult prestige class, should make for an amazing challenge.

**Tvtyrant** · 2011-01-06, 10:58 PM (ISO 8601)

Don't own this one. Oh well such is life.

**Tam_OConnor** · 2011-01-06, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)

I think I'm going to try judging this one.

My criteria:
Originality: Essentially, measuring the degree to which I screw up my face and say 'what?' The secret ingredient itself has predetermined fluff, but I won't deduct points for reflavoring that (within reason).

Power: Like others have said, how much does this build elevate its component classes?

Elegance: How well does this build flow from class to class? I get twitchy when I see more than one template. I may not like the multiclassing penalties, but having them will still impact your score. This prestige class seems to encourage dips, so I'll be lenient on them: in this case, a lack of dips will probably increase your elegance score. Justifying odd choices, through fiction or otherwise, will be to your benefit.

Use of Secret Ingredient: Why does this build need Ardent Dilettante? Did you take at least nine levels of it?

Go forth, and don't come back until you've finished snogging Madam de Pompadour and invented the banana daiquiri.

**FishAreWet** · 2011-01-07, 01:43 AM (ISO 8601)

I'll try entering. But I must say this class is terrible. Short of 9/10 casting progression, bonus feats and See It Again the class has no remediable features. The latter being the only thing unique about it.

EDIT: Damn Dragon Mag being banned, I had a great idea!

**T.G. Oskar** · 2011-01-07, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by FishAreWet

I'll try entering. But I must say this class is terrible. Short of 9/10 casting progression, bonus feats and See It Again the class has no remediable features. The latter being the only thing unique about it.

That's...pretty much the idea of ICO.

Take a PrC that's hard to work with, and make a build that's original, playable, and that really uses the ingredient. Original is played in Originality: instead of going for the expected entry, explain why you used X race and Y background. Playability is defined by Power and Elegance; Power means just how good the build is, and generally the best scores are those that are strong overall. If your build relies on a specific trick, then it might lose points; if your build blooms late but begins awfully, then it might lose points (and viceversa). Elegance, on the other hand, relies on how easy it is to reach the full power potential of the build, whether it relies on several tricks or whether it's nice and easy, whether the build is legal and other things.

A good example is...Drunken Master, or Blade Bravo. People used Stoneblessed to enter with other races in what was a gnome-specific class. Using stuff like Psionics and rogue-inclined classes maximized the benefits of the class. It required a very specific type of playstyle to make it effective, and in the end, people made builds that played with that style, added something no one else had thought of, or simply gave it a twist to the old utility of the class. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a challenge.

Another was Mythic Exemplar. You could do a lot of things with that PrC because it had 6 different entry points; however, some entry points were less effective than others (namely Reikhardt's path). And yet, there were entries which pushed what you could get from Mythic Exemplar to the limit; that doesn't mean, though, that the PrC is really good or useful. Quite the contrary; it's one of the few PrCs that are easily forgettable. Imagine if, say, Ordained Champion was used instead; Ordained Champion is a great PrC, quite specific but rife with good class abilities. Thus, the class would have had a lot of entries and a lot of strong and elegant entries, which wouldn't have been a challenge at all.

Thus, why the need for challenging, hard to optimize PrCs, and hence why Ardent Dilettante. Perhaps you make one of those "unredeemable features" a very important part of your build, perhaps you can find tricks no one else might have figured out, perhaps adding bits of another PrC brings out the full potential of Ardent Dilettante... That's what the entire ICO competition is about.

But of course, not everyone is driven to make a great build with it; interests are different. Hence, why some dive in, why some bow out and why some decide to go for the judging ;)

**Thurbane** · 2011-01-07, 02:00 AM (ISO 8601)

Woo! After 2+ weeks with no internet (modem arrived today) I was worried I'd missed this one!

**vikingofdoom** · 2011-01-07, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)

I volunteer to judge this contest, with the following guidelines:
Power-I dislike overly powered build, and prefer Tiers 2-4 for the builds. Due to the nature of this PrC, I am willing to consider a wider range of power levels though.
Originality-If I can recognize the build from somewhere, or the build is really obvious, I will dock marks here.
Elegance: I normally dislike dipping, but for this contest, understand that it is necessary for this class. As such, minimal dipping is encouraged. Also, the better your build "flows" from one level to the next, the better you will do.
Use of the Secret Ingredient: The more the secret ingredient is central to the build, the better it will do. Straight-foward, but I encourage taking 9-10 levels (I won't dock you for getting True Ress cast to come back to life if necessary.
I look forward to examining all the tasty submissions this one should get.

**T.G. Oskar** · 2011-01-07, 02:11 AM (ISO 8601)

I dunno, shink...but it seems like everybody just wanna judge this one.

But, I gave my word that I would (possibly) judge this competition, not that I would (possibly) compete in this one, so I can't change my decision (except for saying no, but that would be silly don't you think?).

Really, we already have...what, 4 judges and 0 competitors? Oh wait, it's...3 judges and 1 and 2/2nds competitors (2? 3?)...never mind...

**The Gilded Duke** · 2011-01-07, 02:16 AM (ISO 8601)

I'm in it to compete. Got one idea I'm thinking of right now, will see how it works out.

**Fearan** · 2011-01-07, 05:54 AM (ISO 8601)

Well, this is not a surprise. Although the PrC itself sucks, so did the GSA. So no quaries with this one. I'll enter as a contestant
By the way, some clarification, plz. Will exotic weapon proficiency via "X may treat Y as a martial weapon, rather then exotic" count?

**Kesnit** · 2011-01-07, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)

Somehow I knew what the SI would be, give that TS said it was one that had been requested a lot.

I'm just going to watch this one from the sideline. Classes start up again Monday and I need to focus on them until I get settled into the routine.

**kestrel404** · 2011-01-07, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)

I'll be competing again, I've got time this weekend.

Fish: Dragon Compendium is available - if what you desire is in there, you can still use it.

Fearan: That generally works just fine - it's still an exotic weapon, and you've got proficiency with it (from a level of fighter or ranger or something), so you 'have proficiency with an exotic weapon'.

**OMG PONIES** · 2011-01-07, 07:36 AM (ISO 8601)

Competing.

**monkeysammich** · 2011-01-07, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)

I'd like to join as a competitor.

**Ernir** · 2011-01-07, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)

Hmm. Interesting class. I'll try to compete for once.

**true_shinken** · 2011-01-07, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Fearan

Well, this is not a surprise. Although the PrC itself sucks, so did the GSA. So no quaries with this one. I'll enter as a contestant
By the way, some clarification, plz. Will exotic weapon proficiency via "X may treat Y as a martial weapon, rather then exotic" count?

Yes, it counts. It's adressed in the FAQ or something like that somewhere.

OP updated with contestants and judges. I must confess I'm really excited with this contest. As atested by Amphetryon, qualifying by itself is a challenge, so this will be very different from Assassin.

**Grynning** · 2011-01-07, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)

Having never owned or even looked at the Planar Handbook, and having no desire to go buy it right now, I'll sit this one out guys. However, if you're short judges let me know and I'll see if I can borrow a copy from someone. Have fun!

**Fearan** · 2011-01-07, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by true_shinken

Yes, it counts. It's adressed in the FAQ or something like that somewhere.

OP updated with contestants and judges. I must confess I'm really excited with this contest. As atested by Amphetryon, qualifying by itself is a challenge, so this will be very different from Assassin.

IMHO, the main challenge will be to explain, why your build actually needs the Ardent Dilettante

**monkeysammich** · 2011-01-07, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Fearan

Actually, the main challenge will be to explain, why your build actually needs the Ardent Dilettante

How, as I'm trying to work out... how Ardent Dilettante adds to what I already have. It's... tricky.

I like it.

**Xodion** · 2011-01-07, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)

I'm not familiar with this class either, but from what everyone else is saying it sounds very intriguing and challenging, so I'm probably going to have a go anyway. I'll borrow the book from my DM on Monday (he has every 3.5e book ever, or close to it).

Does anyone mind giving me an idea of the flavour of the class, so I can think about how I can fit it into a character's background over the weekend? Obviously you can't post the actual stats and abilities, or any suggestions for classes to go with it, but some idea of the fluff would be great

.

**monkeysammich** · 2011-01-07, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)

Its the prestige class associated with the Society of Sensation... and it is all about experience all there is to life (and death!). Its a very interesting class.

**Xodion** · 2011-01-07, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)

Thanks, that's great. It does sound very interesting, and very difficult to pin down into a role... Yeah, I'm going to try and have a go at this one

**Urpriest** · 2011-01-07, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)

I intend to compete. I've got an idea for this one that's at least amusing, if not powerful.

**NoldorForce** · 2011-01-07, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)

Put me down as a competitor. I recall actually making a build with this for some now-defunct arena, so mentioning the AD brought some nice memories.

**Ingus** · 2011-01-07, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)

Wonderful pick, this time. I'll check tomorrow, but I'll try to partecipate

**Akal Saris** · 2011-01-07, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)

Honestly, it doesn't look that difficult to qualify for even the highest level parts, since it's a high skills PrC and the 5 levels before you can enter can take care of the rest of the qualifications. It's more a matter of finding a niche where the PrC will actually benefit the character more than levels in Unseen Seer or whatever.

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