Community Based Monster Classes VI

[DiBastet]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. can you try explaining a bit better?

Sure dark lord. Or lady. Or whatever.

Better, sure Sith Master. You see, you could say tha it has a natural armor bonus equal to Con or something like this, or it could gain inertial armor. Inertial armor, as a psi-like ability, advances with level. It's just like casting a mage armor tha advances with level (and mage armor is very mage-like, huh?), but that you an only cast on yourself. It's the very same as giving a scaling ammount of armor bonus or natural armor bonus, except that you see, can be dispeled.

It could very well read that it haves an inertial armor effect always active. At least for me it seems much more flavorful to give an inertial armor always on than the old Natural Armor = Con score... Helps with the "soft fragile worm with mental powers" thing.

[dsmiles]

Wow. That's a lot of critique. Thanks, guys (and/or gals).

Spoilered for Wall'o'Text-iness. Responses are in bold.

Spoiler

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That seems a little excessive. Maybe give it the bonus power points you normally get from leveling in psionic classes?

Bonus PP may work, but PLAs are already augmented to a max of their ML's worth of PP.

Psi-like abilities augment automatically. (SRD: "When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC.")

See? I told you so.

As far as I know, the warlock require that you take most of the levels in their class to qualify for the 9d6. Assuming the monster doesn't qualify as a manifesting class and took the rest of its levels in a manifesting class, it matches the warlock's damage output.
It still shouldn't be an at will ability unless it needs to be for the class to be functional. The only class I know of that has an at will ability is the lantern archon, and that class does need the ability to function, since there aren't many other ways for it to attack.

Perhaps I could limit the damage output? This is supposed to be the 'main' telekinetic attack of the class, so I believe that at-will is a must.

Yeah, but the warlock isn't really very good at blasting to begin with. The main concern I see with Concussion Blast is that, on a second look-over, it's no-attack no-save, which is a bit much if it's not supposed to be the focus. (If it's supposed to be the centerpiece of the class, then honestly I don't think it's too much - it's strong, but not crazy-strong.)

Hmm. Didn't notice the no attack/no save bit.

Looking at the psurlon entry in Lords of Madness, it says they almost exclusively fight with their telekinetic powers. If the class is supposed to capture the feel of the creature, it pretty much needs either a ton of uses or an at-will telekinetic attack power. Maybe give it a similar-but-not-identical PLA that requires an attack roll or saving throw? (Similar to how Brain In A Jar's Mental Blast doesn't exactly line up with any existing psionic power.)

Regarding counting as a manifesting class, the Psionics entry here gives it an ML equal to its HD.

A power doesn't need to be required for basic functionality before it qualifies to be designated at-will, I'd think. Rather, the criteria should be that it doesn't unbalance the game and that it lets you actually play like the creature you're supposed to be.

You know, I'm thinking...

Brain in a jar is also incapable of wielding weapons, the attack can only target one creature, and it requires a will save. Yes it does. At level 7. Gust of wind also does not give you a +7 armor boost to AC at that level, and the breath has to be maintained in order for its benefit to remain. The fire elementa's spitfire ability is also barely above a first level spell in terms of damage at level 20. yes, but it is a damage dealing ability, the subject gets a reflex save, evasion applies to it, and its once every 1d4 rounds, not at will.

If that were the case, I wouldn't mind, but I don't see any reason the psurlon needs inertial armor or concussive blast at will in order to function as the appropriate monster.

EDIT: The version I'm looking at doesn't have either as at wills. It has mage armor, sound burst, and detect thoughts as at wills. The giant Psurlon does, but that's a CR 11 monster as opposed to the standard Psurlon which is cr 5. Also Dsmiles, I suggest just using the SLAs given for the average Psurlon at the moment, and only adding in the others if you want to make it a level 11 class.

The wheels are turning, give me a sec.

Inertial armor at will is more or less the same that a scalinbg armor bonus tht saves the player to remember he's got some more four uses that last seven hours and that he can only cast on himself. Please keep it at will.

The blast is part of the lore of the monster as already mentioned, and it scales with level. it seems to me to be the base of the whole monster class, a psionic worm that fights with telepathy.

I think 1/day/ML is good for inertial armor. It gives 3 uses covering 21 hours.

No, concussive blast is not a specific part of the lore, it just says "Mental blasts" I suggest changing conussive blast to its own ability for the Psurlon to kill enemies with, since it doesn't get the blast at first level anyway and putting the ability at first level. The fluff and combat strategy also seem to disagree here, as there is no mention of using a mental blast in the combat strategy for a Psurlon. Although, that may be because the original monster doesn't actually have one.

The fluff is really kind of screwy here.

EDIT: Another reason I don't like inertial armor is that, despite the class not being a melee monster, it gets a melee class type ability for an at will.

OK, here it is: Inertial Armor 1/day/ML. Sound good? Great. Moving on.

Concussion Blast At-Will, limited to 3d6 damage and one target. The Elder Psurlon and Giant Psurlon PrCs will improve this ability to be more in line with a scaling ability.

I think I covered the main points. Let me know if I missed anything.

EDIT: Updated original monster entry.

[Frog Dragon]

Critiques in blue.

Hit Dice: d8

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Class Features

1st|

+0

|

+0

|

+0

|

+2

|Worm Body, Blindsight, Immunities, Psionics, Telepathy

2nd|

+1

|

+0

|

+0

|

+3

|Ability Bonus (STR +2, WIS +2, CHA +2), Combat Manifestation, Psionics

3rd|

+2

|

+1

|

+1

|

+3

|Ability Bonus (DEX +2, INT +2), Damage Reduction, Psionics

4th|

+3

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

|Ability Bonus (CON +2, CHA +2), Power Resistance, Psionics

5th|

+3

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

|Ability Bonus (DEX +2, INT +4) Convoluted Mind, Psionics [/table]

Skills Points at First Level: (4+Intelligence Modifier) x 4
Skills Points at Each Level: (4+Intelligence Modifier)
Class Skills: The Psurlon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Psionics) (Int), Psicraft (Int), and Sense Motive (Wis). Skills seem okay, and appropriate to the critter.

Proficiencies: The Psurlon gains is proficient with only its natural weapons. Psurlons gain no proficiency with armor or shields.

Psurlon Class Features: The following are the Class Features of the Psurlon.

Worm Body: At first level the Psurlon loses all racial traits. They become a Medium Aberration. They gain a bite attack as a primary natural weapon, dealing 1d6 damage. A Psurlon also has a two claw attacks as secondary natural weapons, which deal 1d4 damage. A Psurlon's primary natural weapons add their STR modifier to damage, and their secondary natural weapons add half of their STR modifier. A Psurlon has darkvision to a range of 120 ft. They also have a +4 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks due to their soft and flexible bodies. A Psurlon gains a +2 bonus to their Intelligence and Charisma scores. This seems to be a monster focused on its mental powers. Does it really need three natural attacks right off the bat? For that matter, the creature should only have the ability bonuses that either define it as a creature or help its shtick. In this case, the creature should not have bonuses to all six stats, and should probably instead have just intelligence and charisma bonuses, and even those should cap off at +5 for now. Also, there should be a specific ability, titled something like "ability bonuses" which lists and totals the bonuses you get by taking the class.

Blindsight: A Psurlon can ascertain its surroundings by sensing sound, scent, heat, and vibration. This ability allows it to discern objects and creatures within 60'. The Psurlon does not normally need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight. This is a powerful observational ability for level 1, but given the existence of Darkstalker, it can probably slide.

Immunities: Psurlons are immune to sleep, charm, and compulsion effects. Immunities, not much to say.

Psionics: Psurlons are naturally psionic creatures and gain 1 bonus power point at 1st level. They also gain the following powers as Psi-like abilities at first level: inertial armor (1/day per manifester level) and brain lock (1/day per manifester level).
At second level, the Psurlon gains the following Psi-like abilities: concussion blast (3d6, single target, at will) and cloud mind (1/day per manifester level).
At third level, Psurlons gain the following Psi-like abilities: read thoughts (at will) and telekinetic thrust (1/day per 2 manifester levels).
At fourth level, the Psurlon gains the following Psi-like ability: telekinetic maneuver (1/day per 2 manifester levels).
At fifth level, Psurlons gain the following Psi-like abilities: energy bolt (1/day/per manifester level) (There seems to be an extra "/" here.) and psionic dimension door (1/day per two manifester levels).
A Psurlon's manifester level is equal to its Hit Dice, and the save DCs are Charisma-based. It is customary to list the "Psionics" ability at first level, followed by the granted abilities in italics. At later levels, instead of "psionics", it could read Concussion Blast&Cloud Mind.
I don't see a real problem with the psi-like abilities, since even Dim Door doesn't come in before flight would come in in a normal game, so it doesn't really bring obstacle dodging powers any earlier than usual.

Telepathy: A Psurlon can communicate with any creature that has a language telepathically, within 50 ft per Hit Die. Soo... at level 20, you have telepathy out to 1000ft... wow. I'm not sure about the scaling in the first place, but it should at least be capped.

Combat Manifestation: At second level, the Psurlon gains Combat Manifestation as a bonus feat. Bonus feats are boring. But okay.

Damage Reduction: Beginning at third level the Psurlon gains Damage Reduction equal to (1/2HD)/psionic. DR/Psionic? How does that work?

Power Resistance: At fourth level, the Psurlon gains Power Resistance equal to 10 plus its Hit Dice Power resistance. Pretty basic. Okay.

Convoluted Mind: At fifth level the Psurlon's neural pathways become twisted and a mental door unlocks. The Psurlon manifests its psi-like abilities as if it had 2 extra Hit Dice. So, essentially, free extra scaling for psionic powers. You might want to clarify if this also gives an extra use of the Psi-Like-Abilities.

Apart from the problems I outlined, it could probably use something a bit more interesting than just a glob of psi-like-abilities. Flavor text is your friend here.

[TheGeckoKing]

The vivisector seems really cool now. I would just add the following:

Choice Cuts: At 3rd level, when a Vivisector successfully uses its Vivisection or Dissection ability on a creature and kills them with it, they may scoop up the organs extracted, eat them, and pick a bonus from the following list, as a free action. (...) A Vivisector can also use Choice Cuts on a creature that died by other causes, but only if the creature has been dead by no longer than 1 minute.

One of my players would love use it.

Will do.
Also, Hazzardevil brings up a good point. What happens if an undead dies and is Ressurected? Do they lose their class abilities until they're re-undead-ified?

[DiBastet]

DR/Psionic? How does that work?

It's probably the same as DR / Magic since in EPH there are references to Power Resistance (equals magic resistance) and things like this. In most campaigns a psionic weapons counts as magic weapons for purposes of defeating DR.

It was either a typo or he wanted to leave it like this: In most campaigns, magic weapons count, if you use Psionics are Different then it must be a psionic weapon...

[dsmiles]

This seems to be a monster focused on its mental powers. Does it really need three natural attacks right off the bat? For that matter, the creature should only have the ability bonuses that either define it as a creature or help its shtick. In this case, the creature should not have bonuses to all six stats, and should probably instead have just intelligence and charisma bonuses, and even those should cap off at +5 for now. Also, there should be a specific ability, titled something like "ability bonuses" which lists and totals the bonuses you get by taking the class.

So...ability bonuses listed in the monster's original entry are null and void? I can live with that. I'll move the claws to...3rd?

This is a powerful observational ability for level 1, but given the existence of Darkstalker, it can probably slide.

Meh. I'm not married to blindsight, but the fluff kind of fits. Giant psionic earthworm, and all. Move it to 2nd?

It is customary to list the "Psionics" ability at first level, followed by the granted abilities in italics. At later levels, instead of "psionics", it could read Concussion Blast&Cloud Mind.

Too easy.

Soo... at level 20, you have telepathy out to 1000ft... wow. I'm not sure about the scaling in the first place, but it should at least be capped.

I'll change the wording, then. I though I implied that it capped at level 5. No problem.

DR/Psionic? How does that work?

Psionically enhanced weapons via Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, just like DR/magic is for magically enhanced weapons.

So, essentially, free extra scaling for psionic powers. You might want to clarify if this also gives an extra use of the Psi-Like-Abilities.

Well...it's a 7HD creature, but the thread guidelines suggested to not go over the creature's CR. So I went with 5HD + 2 extra ML. Should I go 7HD?

Apart from the problems I outlined, it could probably use something a bit more interesting than just a glob of psi-like-abilities. Flavor text is your friend here.

Yeah, I'm working on the fluff text for the abilities. The monster entry doesn't list much...stupid WotC.

EDIT: Updated.
Also: @DiBastet: Yes, I use the Psionics are Different variant, but in a Psionics are the Same campaign setting, like FR, DR/Psionic is the same as DR/magic. You are correct.

[Lix Lorn]

Sith? Sylvanas?
If you're arguing over one against the other, you have not heard of the power of Combine and Conquer!
....The darkest lady will have a word with you later.

In the name of Kane: PEACE THROUGH POWER.

But if it's that same then on death knight it has conflicting abilities, one says it can be ressurected and get turned into a living being before it became a death knight, what I want to know is that if you get ressurected you lose your death knight abilities, I don't know if you gain levels to replace it.

From Races of the Dragon: If you no longer qualify for a prestige class, you lose the benefit of any class features or special abilities granted by the class. You retain hit dice gained from advancing in the class, as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided. If you later meet all the prerequisites for the class, you regain the benefits.

tl;dr, you lose all class abilities, but not hit die, BAB, or saves. It doesn't specify on skills, but I'd rule you keep them.

[TheGeckoKing]

From Races of the Dragon: If you no longer qualify for a prestige class, you lose the benefit of any class features or special abilities granted by the class. You retain hit dice gained from advancing in the class, as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided. If you later meet all the prerequisites for the class, you regain the benefits.

tl;dr, you lose all class abilities, but not hit die, BAB, or saves. It doesn't specify on skills, but I'd rule you keep them.

I'd say that's about right......would be a pain to re-undead-ify yourself short of DM Fiat though.

[Frog Dragon]

So...ability bonuses listed in the monster's original entry are null and void? I can live with that. I'll move the claws to...3rd? Yes, the original ability scores are indeed null and void. Also, bonuses should come in increments of +1 in this project.
Meh. I'm not married to blindsight, but the fluff kind of fits. Giant psionic earthworm, and all. Move it to 2nd? Doesn't make that much of a difference, really.
Too easy.
I'll change the wording, then. I though I implied that it capped at level 5. No problem. HD in this project always means ALL HD, not just Monstrous HD. Which is really how it should be, so the scaling keeps things relevant.
Psionically enhanced weapons via Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, just like DR/magic is for magically enhanced weapons. Okay, it was just a little nonstandard. I don't really see the point of the distinction.
Well...it's a 7HD creature, but the thread guidelines suggested to not go over the creature's CR. So I went with 5HD + 2 extra ML. Should I go 7HD? No, you shouldn't. Again, creatures are supposed to keep gaining some racial benefits after they finish the class.
Yeah, I'm working on the fluff text for the abilities. The monster entry doesn't list much...stupid WotC. The thing is fixating on a random four word sentence in the monster description. For example, what if you gave them abilities relating to them being manipulative SoBs?

EDIT: Updated.
Also: @DiBastet: Yes, I use the Psionics are Different variant, but in a Psionics are the Same campaign setting, like FR, DR/Psionic is the same as DR/magic. You are correct.

Flying half-badger unicorns taste good sprinkled with a little salt.

[Hyudra]

So...ability bonuses listed in the monster's original entry are null and void? I can live with that. I'll move the claws to...3rd?

Yeah. We're not married to the rules of the type, the original creature's stat bonuses, etc. Generally speaking, we cut most of the attribute bonuses (so no Hill Giants with +14 Str at 5th level) and then stick to giving attribute bonuses that are both flavorful and deemed necessary.

The primary goal, remember, is that we're striving for monsters that make good classes.

You may have glanced over it - I did make a post dubbed 'Writing up a Monster Class, a Guide' last night. Some of the stuff in there might help as far as getting into the project mindset. Don't know.

So with all that in mind, a few things that caught my eye:

• Most monsters don't have a fluff & a crunch box in each post. For those who assume your monster follows usual format, clicking on the first spoiler to see the monster stats & rules, they're just getting fluff. Including such isn't a bad idea (unless you're copying directly from copyrighted material, in which case it is problematic), just try to aim more for convention as far as formatting goes. The fluff could be in a sub-spoiler in the comments, for example.
• On the table, it's convention (and looks nicer) to list Core Ability, Ability, Stat bonus... with Core abilities being those archetypical ones that keep coming up (Psurlon Body, Growth) other abilities being whatever you came up with, and the Stat Bonuses being the stats gained with the level, appearing last.
• As I implied above, we're not stuck on the type HD, skills, proficiencies, etc. We do try to pick stuff that makes sense, but try to pick HD/Skills/proficiencies/whatever that make sense for your monster as a class. At times, so long as it supports the flavor, we've even taken away abilities and replaced them with close equivalents that fit the class we were intending to portray better. I do believe this latter point is what Kyuubi was going for in reference to the concussion blast.
• Just glancing over the Psurloin Psurlon, it seems it doesn't know what it wants to be, rolewise. What role is this taking in a group? I ask because...
  
  • At 1st level we've got fairly big HD (d8), three natural attacks and one of our two psionic abilities grants us armor, giving the impression of a psionically augmented beatstick.
  • But then it sorta drops this, thematically, gaining a fairly extensive repertoire of PLAs that make it something more like a psionic caster, while still having fairly beefy HD, gaining a bunch of defenses (DR, PR, etc).

That isn't an extensive critique, just my impressions from going over it once. Hope it helps with the design direction. Do ask questions if they come up. The others seem to be doing a good job as far as reviewing goes.

Edit: I realize, now, that I did you a disservice by linking you to Chumplump's post with the monster class copy-paste form, I'd sorta been under the impression you just wanted the table, but you used the entire monster class. I say it's a disservice because the monster class form there is kinda outdated and there's a bunch of stuff that tends to bug me or that I tend to ask people to change. You already fixed some of it, and I guess I'll get to the rest when I do a solid critique of the Psurloin Psurlon, but just let me apologize in advance.

I'll be replacing the link to Chumplump's post with a link to my own.

[dsmiles]

Frog Demon & Hyudra: Thanks. I'll have to get back to this a little later on today, my RL game starts in an hour.

[Frog Dragon]

Frog Demon & Hyudra: Thanks. I'll have to get back to this a little later on today, my RL game starts in an hour.

It's Dragon, not Demon .

[Benly]

No, concussive blast is not a specific part of the lore, it just says "Mental blasts" I suggest changing conussive blast to its own ability for the Psurlon to kill enemies with, since it doesn't get the blast at first level anyway and putting the ability at first level. The fluff and combat strategy also seem to disagree here, as there is no mention of using a mental blast in the combat strategy for a Psurlon. Although, that may be because the original monster doesn't actually have one.

The fluff is really kind of screwy here.

"Psurlons never use melee weapons. They can fight with their bare claws and teeth, but they are not particularly formidable in melee combat. Instead, they attack with their psionic powers, battering foes with telekinetic blasts or immobilizing them with mental energy."

To me it sounds like having a psychic-focused combat style is most appropriate. Letting the mental blast scale reasonably at the expense of the natural weapons and physical stats slacking off would make sense to me.

[dsmiles]

It's Dragon, not Demon .

My bad, yo.

[Mystic Muse]

Sure dark lord. Or lady. Or whatever.

Better, sure Sith Master. You see, you could say that it has a natural armor bonus equal to Con or something like this, or it could gain inertial armor. Inertial armor, as a psi-like ability, advances with level. It's just like casting a mage armor that advances with level (and mage armor is very mage-like, huh?)

There are many many different types of mages, and an armor type ability fits for certain concepts. Its the same case with Wilders and Psions. This is not the case with Psurlon which the fluff specifically states is not a melee monster. The player can make them one, but it shouldn't have inertial armor at will according to its original fluff.

It's the very same as giving a scaling amount of armor bonus or natural armor bonus, except that as you see, can be dispelled.

Not really. I can't think of many classes that will have a natural armor bonus of +4 at first, +5 at secdond, +6 at third, ETC. and those I'm aware of that do are melee monsters. Granted, its dispelable, but when its at will, there's not much reason to dispel it.

It could very well read that it haves an inertial armor effect always active. At least for me it seems much more flavorful to give an inertial armor always on than the old Natural Armor = Con score... Helps with the "soft fragile worm with mental powers" thing.

To me it takes away from the "Soft fragile worm with mental powers" thing.

"Psurlons never use melee weapons. They can fight with their bare claws and teeth, but they are not particularly formidable in melee combat. Instead, they attack with their psionic powers, battering foes with telekinetic blasts or immobilizing them with mental energy."

To me it sounds like having a psychic-focused combat style is most appropriate. Letting the mental blast scale reasonably at the expense of the natural weapons and physical stats slacking off would make sense to me.

Yes, if it scales Reasonably. Concussion blast really didn't, but dsmiles has changed it, and now I don't mind it.

[Benly]

The player can make them one, but it shouldn't have inertial armor at will according to its original fluff. Not really. I can't think of many classes that will have a natural armor bonus of +4 at first, +5 at secdond, +6 at third, ETC. and those I'm aware of that do are melee monsters.

It would actually be +4 at first, +5 at third, +6 at fifth, etc. That said, I think that the designers didn't take into account Inertial Armor's scaling when they designed the monster - the statblocks all use Mage Armor's nonscaling bonus. Maybe a flat "main stat as deflection bonus to AC" ability would work better - it still scales, but it's much less sharp.

Yes, if it scales Reasonably. Concussion blast really didn't, but dsmiles has changed it, and now I don't mind it.

Looking at the original creature's stat block in detail, they actually did something interesting. They do scale Concussion Blast, but they force its augmentation after the first 3d6 to be split between damage and targets. It seems that the monster class could do something like that, scaling up damage and number of targets in alternation.

[Mystic Muse]

It would actually be +4 at first, +5 at third, +6 at fifth, etc. That said, I think that the designers didn't take into account Inertial Armor's scaling when they designed the monster - the statblocks all use Mage Armor's nonscaling bonus. Maybe a flat "main stat as deflection bonus to AC" ability would work better - it still scales, but it's much less sharp.

Yeah, that could work.

Looking at the original creature's stat block in detail, they actually did something interesting. They do scale Concussion Blast, but they force its augmentation after the first 3d6 to be split between damage and targets. It seems that the monster class could do something like that, scaling up damage and number of targets in alternation.

Hmm. I'm not sure what I'll think of this until I see it implemented.

[Benly]

Hmm. I'm not sure what I'll think of this until I see it implemented.

The main thing is that as it stands, Concussion Blast is a great ability when the Psurlon first gets it and quickly becomes terrible. If it's going to fight using Concussion Blast as a primary offense, it needs to do more than "3d6 damage to one target as a standard action". The other abilities don't feel like they have enough uses, to me.

For my part, I quite like the original damage scaling it has as a class's at-will fallback attack (1d6 at first, an additional 1d6 at each odd level after that). My only problem with it is the no save/no attack roll, and I think a saving throw would make it perfectly fine. Internally, I'm comparing it to the brain in a jar's Mind Thrust, since that's the monster class I most recently used - the BIAJ has problems the Psurlon doesn't, but I find that ability a pretty good basis for a psychic blasty class's staple offense.

If I were to think of something from the ground up for the psurlon, I would probably make it something like "Telekinetic Blast (Ps): The psurlon fires a blast of telekinetic force at a single target, dealing 1d8 damage (Fortitude save for half). This damage increases by 1d8 at third level, and again at every odd-numbered level after that. The psurlon may target more than one creature with this ability, but each additional target reduces the damage dealt by 1d8. The psurlon may not add more targets if doing so would reduce the damage of the telekinetic blast below 1d8 damage."

It has a fortitude save, so the issue of inescapable damage is avoided. It's slightly less damage than BIAJ's Mind Thrust, but the Mind Thrust is mind-affecting so that's a fair tradeoff to me.

[Noxsis]

can i requst a few monster classes which are infernal, shadow elemental and sadly a nightwalker one as the old one seems to have been removed

[Mystic Muse]

can i requst a few monster classes which are infernal, shadow elemental and sadly a nightwalker one as the old one seems to have been removed

Please list the sources of the monsters. Also, I wouldn't expect the infernal any time soon. There are already several level 20 monsters that are being worked on.

[Noxsis]

nightwalker is from MM, shadow elmental is from ToM, and infernal is from epic level handbook also any other creature from the shadow magic chapter in ToM would be nice but il setle for the first three though

[Hyudra]

The old Nightwalker was removed from the list of links because the first user to start it (Oslecamo) got banned, and the second (Megawizard) let me know via. PM that he was leaving GitP.

[Noxsis]

the reason why its its gone isint really important what is important is that it IS gone

[Hyudra]

the reason why its its gone isint really important what is important is that it IS gone

Well, if it's any consolation, it was pretty poorly done, so you didn't miss out on much.

[Noxsis]

it still needs to be replaced. agreed?

[Frog Dragon]

The balance of the dragon classes is something that has been raised up, and which I am not so sure about. While the three natural attacks at first level in the older dragons are a real problem, given that the only other critter that gets them is the RotD Web Enhancement kobold, who has a -4 strength penalty.

Whatever minor dragon-specific abilities the dragons gain is usually of little import to game balance, and most of the power comes from the chassis itself here, which is casting, mobility and combat power, all of which the dragon has. The dragon is a frontliner on par with the barbarian, with a helping of bard casting. Certainly seems impressive, maybe even overpowered. However, the bard casting is not "true" bard casting, and spells are instead chosen from either the sorcerer or the cleric (druid, with my Black Dragon) lists. This means that the spells it gains cap off at a lower threshold of effectiveness, since bards gain some spells at much lower spell levels than other classes. Irresistible Dance is a good example.

I figure the dragon comes out to about tier 2, but it does stack a lot of power, from combat skills to spellcasting to excellent flying mobility. However, since we are typically shooting for tier 3, and it uses a bard base, the dragons may well be too powerful for the intended power level of this project. However, they are not really that broken, like, for example, the Black Ethergaunt, so even if they do need a fix, it probably isn't very high on our list.[/Rant]

[Hyudra]

The balance of the dragon classes is something that has been raised up, and which I am not so sure about. While the three natural attacks at first level in the older dragons are a real problem, given that the only other critter that gets them is the RotD Web Enhancement kobold, who has a -4 strength penalty.

Whatever minor dragon-specific abilities the dragons gain is usually of little import to game balance, and most of the power comes from the chassis itself here, which is casting, mobility and combat power, all of which the dragon has. The dragon is a frontliner on par with the barbarian, with a helping of bard casting. Certainly seems impressive, maybe even overpowered. However, the bard casting is not "true" bard casting, and spells are instead chosen from either the sorcerer or the cleric (druid, with my Black Dragon) lists. This means that the spells it gains cap off at a lower threshold of effectiveness, since bards gain some spells at much lower spell levels than other classes. Irresistible Dance is a good example.

I figure the dragon comes out to about tier 2, but it does stack a lot of power, from combat skills to spellcasting to excellent flying mobility. However, since we are typically shooting for tier 3, and it uses a bard base, the dragons may well be too powerful for the intended power level of this project. However, they are not really that broken, like, for example, the Black Ethergaunt, so even if they do need a fix, it probably isn't very high on our list.[/Rant]

Wondering what prompted that rant. I appreciate hearing it - I do like discussion on balance & methodology, because it helps us hammer stuff out, but I just wonder where it came from.

My issue with the Dragon is that, much like the Druid, it's a very hard class to build wrong. Assuming you have a passable grasp of the game, and that you're not being daft with stuff like attribute allocation, you can pick up the Red Dragon monster class and easily be head and shoulders above the rest of the group in terms of general effectiveness and what you're bringing to the table. MAD aside, they've got no meaningful drawbacks.

What's more is that it's (again, like the Druid) a very easy class to optimize, to a degree that you can do it almost accidentally. Not only are there scads of sourcebooks out there relating to or dedicated to Dragons alone (Draconomicon, Races of the Dragon, Dragon Magic, Dragons of Eberron, etc), but Dragons lend themselves exceptionally well to building off of feats, classes, spells and class features that assume either a humanoid chassis or a monster one, and then taking those feats/abilities/spells/whatever the extra mile. So in the former case (scads of sourcebooks) you've got stuff out there like entangling exhalation... essentially a no-save entangle tacked onto your breath weapon at the cost of halving the damage you do. It's the ultimate support/battlefield control skill that trivializes many encounters, even into mid-high levels. In the latter case (using stuff intended for humanoids) you've got the threat of dragons taking initiator levels to couple six natural attacks with punishing stance (at the very mildest) to add +1d6 damage to every attack... at a stage in the game where it's assumed players will have two or three-at-the-most attacks in a round. Or (again, second case), just throw down obscuring mist to auto-win half your fights.

So there's that, which means Dragons are a headache, and they're a headache both for DMs and for those of us who have to keep an eye out for power creep with each successive Dragon that could potentially take Dragons beyond the high end of Tier 2.

Then I have to concede, I hate the flavor of the dragon monster classes as they are portrayed in these threads. They don't feel draconic to me. They're majestic, impressive and terrifying only insofar as they are borderline overpowered. Not game breaking on the ethergaunt level, that's true, but still borderline overpowered.

And there's the fact that so many of them are the same, beyond a half dozen abilities... which makes them boring.

Finally, all of the above is compounded by the fact that each new dragon that comes out has the same overall set of issues. Non-true dragons without the bardish spellcasting less so, and less so for the more recent dragons that've toned down somewhat, but still, many of the above issues do persist. So it's a bunch of problems that might be able to be overlooked, repeating to varying extents over a dozen different dragons.

So that's the basis for my grumbling and groaning whenever I approach the review and critique of a new dragon.

[Lix Lorn]

Maybe you should try doing one? Crystal perhaps, I like Crystal, but any of the true(ish) dragons, to provide a template..?

[ScionoftheVoid]

I'm officially taking on the Verdant Prince (MMIV) since I only have one creature and it should be near completion.

On a related note, when checking the list for my Lodestone Marauder I found it was credited to Zemro Shivic (spelling may be off). I am, to say the least, glad I checked.

[Hyudra]

Fixed, Scion. My apologies. I realized, reading over the list, that I'd somehow left the Lodestone Marauder off the list despite taking it off the abandoned list, so I put it up and falsely credited it in the doing (likely because I'd also recently posted the Marrash, which was done by Zemro).

So again, apologies.