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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    I have always used dragons in my campaigns and I have never found them to be tiresome or cliche. Somehow seeing your entire village burned/melted/frozen/shocked/ect to the ground/sea/sky by the terrible flying mythic scaled beast tends to get the message across to players that they are not only mortal but could very easily be eaten at any given time. The perfect combination of power, magic, intellect, and terror... dragons are amazing creatures. The only problem is that even the lowest tier power gamer can give a dragon a run for its money once they get high enough level. My solution? Make dragons terrifying again.

    I have taken a look at dragon magic and the other dragon books by WoTC. What I need is suggestions for items or spells and how to use them to keep dragons terrifying for my players.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Volos View Post
    I have always used dragons in my campaigns and I have never found them to be tiresome or cliche. Somehow seeing your entire village burned/melted/frozen/shocked/ect to the ground/sea/sky by the terrible flying mythic scaled beast tends to get the message across to players that they are not only mortal but could very easily be eaten at any given time. The perfect combination of power, magic, intellect, and terror... dragons are amazing creatures. The only problem is that even the lowest tier power gamer can give a dragon a run for its money once they get high enough level. My solution? Make dragons terrifying again.

    I have taken a look at dragon magic and the other dragon books by WoTC. What I need is suggestions for items or spells and how to use them to keep dragons terrifying for my players.
    Spam flyby attack and have it keep a Deathward up

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Perhaps giving them a Divine Rank is worth a look? Rank 1 with the right salient divine ability can throw at least some powergaming ideas for a loop.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Every dragon needs a mother.

    Intelligent selection of spells is a must. Using their huge flight movement with flyby attack (yes, usually with their breath weapon). Use Scintillating Scales if your mages get happy with touch attacks. Deathward, Mindblank, True Seeing. Metabreath feats can be pretty nasty.

    More than anything else, give it a personality. Dragons are long-lived, intelligent, creatures. Not mindless beasts. Give them a plan, a reason for attacking.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Dragons with class levels can be quite frightening if done well, even just the Dragon classes that the Draconomicon has. The Unholy Ravager of Tiamat, for example, with its cleric spellcasting and semi-Divine Blast salient ability. Even just a straight Divine Rank 0 (which can also be gained through the Dragon Ascendant class) provides a number of rather hefty boosts to a dragon, what with the immunities, hit points, speed, AC bonus, DR and so on.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Here are a few homebrew feats you can use to dial them up a notch, though be wary about letting them slip over to players:

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    Dauntless [Monstrous]
    Your powerful stature is not easily afflicted by attempts to totally overcome you.
    Prerequisites Con 21+, Huge or larger size
    Benefit Whenever you fail a Fortitude save, you may reduce your current hit points by 100 to treat the effect as though you had succeeded on that save. This is not damage and is not subject to DR, other effects or abilities that would reduce or mitigate damage, or effects or abilities that trigger on hit point damage.

    Monstrous Toughness [Monstrous]
    Your endurance is indomitable and without peer.
    Prerequisites 21+ HD, Con 21+
    Benefit You gain an additional 100 hit points.

    Resist Precision Damage [Monstrous]
    You exhibit remarkable self-concern when it comes to your vital spots, helping you better protect them.
    Prerequisites Natural armor bonus 10+
    Benefit Halve the amount of any precision damage (sneak attack, etc.) dealt to you. Reduce the critical multiplier on attacks against you by 1 (to a minimum x2 multiplier).

    Spell Aegis [Monstrous]
    You are unaffected by certain specific magics.
    Prerequisites Racial spell resistance 18+ or Spell Immunity, 5+ racial HD
    Benefit Choose one spell per 2 HD you possess (maximum five spells) of a level no greater than half your HD, rounded down. When it would be beneficial to you, you completely ignore the effects of such spells as they pertain to you, save in such ways as would be physically irrelevant (you cannot ignore the rain and mud from control weather, nor pass through a wall of stone, nor cause a flying creature to crash to the ground).


    Use Monstrous Toughness to increase the fight duration, Dauntless as a buffer against save-or-die effects, and Spell Aegis to selectively deny extreme "problem spells" (shivering touch being a big one).
    Last edited by afroakuma; 2011-01-09 at 02:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    I'm completely failing to remember where I read this, but someone once posted a spin on draconic greed that I liked.

    A dragon does not care about what mortal's value. A quartz and a diamond are both shiny rocks to them. Rather, they care about what the object is worth to the person who possesses it. A dragon might lay waste to a king's castle and make off with treasure and princess. Or it might find a beggar and take his worn shoes, his ragged clothes, his walking staff, the two copper pieces in his belt. The dragon ascribes equal value to both sets of treasure, because he has taken what they value most from both of them.

    If you want to scare your players with mechanics, I don't think dragons need any particular buffs. Sorcerer spellcasting is quite good, and most of the standard stuff applies there. Just remember to play the dragon smart. A dragon should always be fighting on the ground of it's choice, between it's spellcasting and it's own mobility. It's lair in particular should have years or decades worth of work put into trapping, warding, and shaping. Tucker's Kobolds with giant lizards, basically.
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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    A 2 level swordsage dip grants +1 to-hit, +wis AC, elite array(normally 10s or 11s), all 3 concentration check substitution maneuvers, and your choice of stances from a very useful list(20% concealment or +2d6 SA are both excellent).

    And that's non-associated, so +1 CR.
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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Scarab of Protection is a nice simple item. Prevents level drain, death attacks and if the dragon is younger, it might provide a better SR.
    With a strict reading of Shivering Touch, one could argue that any item or spell that provides cold immunity would also protect against it (and as the DM, you win arguments.)
    I think the idea of a dragon with a Gauntlet of Rusting Grasp is just amusing. Or Eyes of Charming (Someone will eventually roll 1.) Why not Boots of Speed too? And then for a last chuckle, Dust of Disappearance. I could have grabbed some really obscure items from any number of books, but in the hands (claws?) of a dragon, these can all be amusing.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Loredrake, from Dragons of Eberron, gives the dragon 2 more sorcerer levels and downgrades racial HD to d10s; spellhoarding from dragon 313 is a CR 0 template that turns its sorc casting into wizard casting. Turns the dragon into a brutal gish. Use stuff like blood wind to stay out of range and land full attacks, scintillating scales to ignore touch spells and wraithstrike, etc.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Shadow dragon with levels of rogue and the various monster/dragon feats that give more attacks. Generally speaking it will have total concealment and so get off a lot of sneak attacks on its victim without being seen.

    He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Keep them in the open. A dragon in a small cave is a trapped beast, a dragon outside is death on wings.
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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Spc has a ton of spells which can be used to buff them to the heavens. Ray deflection to get rid of pesky ray spells, bite of the werebear for obscene boost to stats, metabreath spells to deal more damage than the PCs have hp. As well as contingencies like fortunate fate.

    Don't forget gear like monk's belt, amulet of mighty fists and bracers of armour.

    Though I am actually going in the opposite direction, how to make them more like dragons and less like draconic spellcasters.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Dragons should always fight on their own terms. They have two primary advantages that the PCs are likely going to have to prepare for if they expect the battle:

    1. Flight. Never put the dragon in an environment where its flight is negated. As such, while the cliche of the dragon in the cave comes from the lovable tradition of The Hobbit, where was Smaug's battle fought? In the sky, with a lot of flying room. Bilbo didn't fight Smaug in his own lair. (So yeah, I really hate the "fight the sleeping dragon in its lair" cliche.)

    2. Energy immunity. It helps a lot if the dragon can either prepare the battlefield, but as a DM, consider having the PCs fight that blue dragon on top of a crag during a violent thunderstorm. (Wind effects can keep the smaller PCs in check, while the rain offers concealment. The dragon does not care about lightning strikes, but that damage (anywhere from 1d8 to 10d8) has got to count for something. Heck, that's like getting an extra breath weapon attack.

    While red dragons do have that "I live in a volcano" cliche, there might be many other potential battlefields. A burning city is one thing I've done. The narrow streets hamper the PCs' mobility, and the burning buildings are very dangerous things to get trapped in. Don't forget the smoke either; a smokescreen that blocks sight can be easily pierced by the dragon's blindsense, as the smoke doesn't block line of effect.
    Other potential lairs for fire-based dragons: a desert (make sure it's bloody hot), a temple of elemental fire or something similar, or in more industrial settings, a metal foundry (such as The Cogs in Eberron).

    Unfortunately for the other types of dragons, their energy types are a bit harder to come by, but they have other abilities that might count. Here's a list of my recommendations:

    Black Dragons: Swamps. If you read the DMG's entry on marshes, they're pretty darn scary. The PCs can't often see if they're about to step into deep water; the mud slows them down, and there's a lot of places for the dragon to hide, including in the water. Furthermore, if the dragon can cast fire spells, you have pockets of flammable marsh gas.

    Blue Dragons: Dragons are said to live in deserts, and are supposed to burrow underground. I dunno. You have a bright blue creature in a stark brown terrain. Yeah, he can burrow, but it's difficult to move around and you dramatically decrease speed. Instead, I recommend treacherous crags in a mountainous zone notorious for foul weather. Strong winds, rain, lightning strikes, scree-covered slopes can give the PCs pause. If you do want to stay in the desert, have the dragon use pre-made traps that can drop a ton of sand on the PCs.

    Green Dragons: Not much to go with here. They work well in forests, but to play up the acid immunity, you can have acid geysers, or maybe even a region of carnivorous plants that release acidic pollen.

    Red Dragons: As mentioned above, volcanoes, metal plants, regions of magical elemental fire, or even a burning city can prove a fantastic battlefield.

    White Dragons: Poor guys. You're pretty much limited to cold terrain, but the top of a glacier can still prove awful: the dragon has icewalking, the PCs likely don't. You could even have the dragon attack them on top of a frozen lake. Slippery ice, thin ice, jagged ice---the land itself wants to kill the PCs and feed them to the dragon.

    Brass Dragons: See the red dragon entry.

    Bronze Dragons: See the blue dragon entry; bronze dragons like the water, though, so maybe a high mountain lake or a series of sea stacks near the ocean can work.

    Copper Dragon: Spider Climb helps the Copper Dragon take advantage of narrow and sheer cliffs, allowing the dragon to come to a stop and ignore the usual limitations of poor mobility ratings in flight. Narrow gorges seem to work well with the Coppers.

    Gold Dragons: Two words: underwater volcano. You have steam explosions, lava flows that don't look like they're hot (but they are!) and toxic gases.

    Silver Dragons: Put Cloudwalking to use. Remember that they can walk across fog too. Mountaintops are obvious, but even a city notorious for fog, on the shores of a mist-shrouded lake is a fantastic place for a silver dragon ambush. Use alternate form. Sail out on a boat with the PCs. Vanish. Kill the PCs.

    Flight and immunities are easy to prepare for. It's the dragons' less known racial abilities that can end up giving the PCs a severe handicap.

    (Btw, I'm assuming the dragons are all fighting the PCs, ignoring Color-Coding.)
    Last edited by AslanCross; 2011-01-09 at 08:08 AM.


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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekkin View Post
    Perhaps giving them a Divine Rank is worth a look? Rank 1 with the right salient divine ability can throw at least some powergaming ideas for a loop.
    i agree divine ranks are a good way to make stuff awesome
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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Everything AslanCross said is spot on. Dragons have a terrifying array of special abilities, amazing casting abilities (if properly done up), and a frightening intellect to make it so literally no plan you come up with for them, no trap you put in their lair, nothing whatsoever is too over the top or too powerful.
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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Fluff-wise, I like to play up the idea of just how old dragons can be.

    Think about it. Individual dragons have lived eons before humanoid civilization sprang up, and they'll be alive and kicking far after we're gone. To a dragon, a human is barely a figment, less then ants or fleas are too us. We barely exist even for an equivalent second of their lifespans, and fade into nothingness. The sheer matter is that dragons simply do not care about us at all, unless we get in their immediate way. We are simply irrelevant by comparison.

    Basically, play up the potential cosmic horror aspects of them. Dragons as Cthulhu, that sort of thing.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Super_Fluous View Post
    Fluff-wise, I like to play up the idea of just how old dragons can be.

    Think about it. Individual dragons have lived eons before humanoid civilization sprang up, and they'll be alive and kicking far after we're gone. To a dragon, a human is barely a figment, less then ants or fleas are too us. We barely exist even for an equivalent second of their lifespans, and fade into nothingness. The sheer matter is that dragons simply do not care about us at all, unless we get in their immediate way. We are simply irrelevant by comparison.

    Basically, play up the potential cosmic horror aspects of them. Dragons as Cthulhu, that sort of thing.
    This works a lot better when the 'irrelevant figments' are not demonstrably capable of kicking the cosmic horrors asses to the Seven Heavens and back. This kind of situation in D&D is more Gurren Lagann than Cthulu.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    I'll second the class levels thing.
    My poor poor PCs are opposing the assassin's guild. They don't know the leader is an adult white dragon Assassin 10

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    They are smart and they are usually spellcasters. Do you really need more?

    (And the more social ones will have minions, too. Kobolds, anyone?)

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Callista View Post
    They are smart and they are usually spellcasters. Do you really need more?
    Well, you don't need it, but after (Improved) Rapidstrike and metabreath feats, your party will think twice before attacking a dragon ever again.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Once my players bombarded a pirate fleet with fireballs and control water wirlpools only to see from the flagship a red dragon rip his way from the admiral's cabin and dispel the crud out of their flight and invisibility. Had it not rolled a one on its save vs hold monster it likely would have killed them all.
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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    This works a lot better when the 'irrelevant figments' are not demonstrably capable of kicking the cosmic horrors asses to the Seven Heavens and back. This kind of situation in D&D is more Gurren Lagann than Cthulu.
    Semantics.

    But yes, I will admit that this sort of thing tends to work best in lower level campaigns. But still, that doesn't mean it isn't necessarily without merit elsewhere. Have the dragons less be characters in there own right, so much as they are a natural part of the environment. Have them be so enormous that entire civilizations have settled on their back without even knowing what the land truly is. That sorts thing.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    I don't know. Making dragons better spell-casters only turns them into sorcerers/clerics with lots of hit points and already shape-changed into dragon form.

    Emphasizing their breath weapons, their kick-ass huge wings with which they fly or blow anything lighter than an iron golem away and their hurty-crunchy bite attack strikes me as more dragonish and fun in the end than something that needs to cast improved invisibility, true seeing, gate in a few balors, has spell contingency with heal prepared and all that mumbo-jumbo to keep up with the player character tier 1 characters supported by magically enhanced fighters that need to be immobilized with hold person or something like that.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by AslanCross View Post
    Dragons should always fight on their own terms. They have two primary advantages that the PCs are likely going to have to prepare for if they expect the battle:

    1. Flight. Never put the dragon in an environment where its flight is negated. As such, while the cliche of the dragon in the cave comes from the lovable tradition of The Hobbit, where was Smaug's battle fought? In the sky, with a lot of flying room. Bilbo didn't fight Smaug in his own lair. (So yeah, I really hate the "fight the sleeping dragon in its lair" cliche.)
    Just to expand on this, I'd like to point out how little space is required to accomplish this task, in terms of cave sizes. Low-CR dragons can easily have lairs made by their parents that are large enough to navigate without issue. For mid-high CR dragons, it'd be harder, but then, they'd probably focus on having a roomy 'front yard'(red dragons would have an entrance that opened up onto the volcano's top, for instance) and secret escape pathways.
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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by WeLoveFireballs View Post
    Once my players bombarded a pirate fleet with fireballs and control water wirlpools only to see from the flagship a red dragon rip his way from the admiral's cabin and dispel the crud out of their flight and invisibility. Had it not rolled a one on its save vs hold monster it likely would have killed them all.
    From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm:

    Dragon Type

    A dragon is a reptilelike creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities.

    Features
    A dragon has the following features.

    12-sided Hit Dice.
    Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
    Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
    Skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
    Traits
    A dragon possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in the description of a particular kind).

    Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
    Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
    Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
    Proficient with no armor.
    Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe.
    Emphasis is mine, dragons should normally be immune to hold monster.

    Although if it was a dramatically epic enough situation, I could certainly see ruling otherwise as a one time thing, just so the party could have its moment of epic awesomeness.
    Last edited by Neoseanster; 2011-01-09 at 06:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Multiple dragons (like, send hordes of them at the players)? Also, templates stacked onto them?

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Since this kinda drifts away from your original request, I am somewhat hesitant to suggest it, but it could still be fun.
    Try adding a template to a dragon. It doesn't have to be anything huge, but if the parties strategy is based on a certain premise (White Dragons vunerable to fire) then it might throw them off if they find out that the dragon actually died and has since become a White Dragon Ghost. There are many different templates, and unless the party has some means to definitely find out what abilities this dragon has, they can't expect to be fully prepared.
    Obviously there are some good reasons to have the dragon make the first move, most prominently giving the party less time to make plans, but don't forget that even a young dragon has been playing the devious schemer longer than the party. Thinking that an older dragon wouldn't have their lairs protected from adventurers is just silly. "Oh no, the party is flying through the hallways! Now they can bypass all the traps without altering the dragon." But there are ways around even a skilled intruder. Alarm can detect any creatures in the area that aren't ethereal or astral, no save to bypass. No reason the dragon couldn't have several permanent alarms located around the lair. "The party just became ethereal to avoid the alarms." Dragons can employ many minions (through domination or actual pay), stick some alarms on the Ethereal Plane too, when the party sets one off, the dragons Ethereal Filcher minion hops onto the Material Plane to warn him.
    And what would stop a dragon from booby trapping their own resting place? The party managed to bypass or defeat all of the wards the dragon set in place? Have the dragon pull a plug and let the room flood with lava (Red Dragon the best choice). Acid, water or any number of other things could work, depending on the dragons type.
    Or how about if the party manages to pull some other crazy antics, like traveling through the astral plane or teleporting and you decide to allow it. The party has the drop on the dragon and they let loose their biggest attacks and then...nothing happens. Apparently the dragon had prepared a Permanent Image to confound any would-be intruders.
    Never forget, that not only are dragons incredibly intelligent, but they have hundreds if not thousands of years worth of time to prepare against a wyrmslayer.

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Waker View Post
    Have the dragon pull a plug and let the room flood with lava (Red Dragon the best choice). Acid, water or any number of other things could work, depending on the dragons type
    I really like this idea! Though, wouldn't the lava/acid just eat through the floor relatively easy?

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    Default Re: Making Dragons Terrifying Again [3.5]

    It is entirely dependent on the substance, but as a general rule no. Acids might only dissolve organic material, while lava would scorch away the top surface of the rock (assuming rock is the floor) but wouldn't melt through it all.

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