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    Default Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Devotee
    ‘I channel the light of Pelor!’
    Artur, Devotee.

    Background: While most who draw on the magic of the gods do so through religious training, some simply have a connection. Many ignore it, and some use their gifts rarely. But some of them embrace them, channelling the power of the gods themselves to slay their enemies and protect their allies.
    Races: Devotees are most common among highly devout races. Devotees of Kurtulmak are common among the kobolds, while their sheer numbers cause humans to bear large amounts of Devotees.
    Other Classes: Devotees often get on well with clerics due to their shared commitment, as well as with sorcerers, who’s natural talent appeals to them.
    Role: A Devotee can serve as many things: a healer, a magical artillerist, or a necromancer.
    Devotees in the World: Some Devotees find their home in religious orders, like clerics. Many take shamanistic roles in more savage communities, and many more become restless, adventuring on behalf of their deity or alignment.
    Inspiration: I needed a cha based caster who could cast Searing Light. Mainly because of the Monk from Fire Emblem.

    Alignment: Any, tending towards extremes.
    Hit Die: d4
    Starting Gold: As Sorcerer.
    Starting Age: As Sorcerer.
    Class Skills: The Devotee’s class skills (And the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Arcana, Nature, Religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).
    Skill Points at 1st level-(4+ Int Modifier) x4
    Skill Points per Level-4 + Int Modifier

    DEVOTEE
    Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1st
    +0
    +0
    +0
    +2
    Turn/Rebuke Undead, Domain 5 3
    2nd
    +1
    +0
    +0
    +3
    6 4
    3rd
    +1
    +1
    +1
    +3
    6 5
    4th
    +2
    +1
    +1
    +4
    6 6 3
    5th
    +2
    +1
    +1
    +4
    Domain 6 6 4
    6th
    +3
    +2
    +2
    +5
    6 6 5 3
    7th
    +3
    +2
    +2
    +5
    6 6 6 4
    8th
    +4
    +2
    +2
    +6
    6 6 6 5 3
    9th
    +4
    +3
    +3
    +6
    6 6 6 6 4
    10th
    +5
    +3
    +3
    +7
    Domain 6 6 6 6 5 3
    11th
    +5
    +3
    +3
    +7
    6 6 6 6 6 4
    12th
    +6/+1
    +4
    +4
    +8
    6 6 6 6 6 5 3
    13th
    +6/+1
    +4
    +4
    +8
    6 6 6 6 6 6 4
    14th
    +7/+2
    +4
    +4
    +9
    6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
    15th
    +7/+2
    +5
    +5
    +9
    Domain 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
    16th
    +8/+3
    +5
    +5
    +10
    6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
    17th
    +8/+3
    +5
    +5
    +10
    6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
    18th
    +9/+4
    +6
    +6
    +11
    6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
    19th
    +9/+4
    +6
    +6
    +11
    6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
    20th
    +10/+5
    +6
    +6
    +12
    Domain 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6

    Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: A Devotee is proficient with simple weapons only. In addition, they require freedom of movement to channel divine energy. Because of this, they suffer an arcane spell failure chance, despite using divine magic.

    Spellcasting: A Devotee casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
    To learn or cast a spell, a Devotee must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Devotee’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Devotee’s Charisma modifier. (Any Divine spells that mention your wisdom modifier instead use your Charisma modifier.)
    Like other spellcasters, a Devotee can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the above table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
    A Devotee’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A Devotee begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new Devotee level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on the spoilered table below. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a Devotee knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Devotee Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the Cleric spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the Devotee has gained some understanding of by study. The Devotee can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

    Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered Devotee level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a Devotee can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the Devotee "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level Devotee spell the Devotee can cast. A Devotee may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
    Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a Devotee need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.

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    Level 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1st 4 1
    2nd 4 1
    3rd 5 2
    4th 6 2 1
    5th 6 3 1
    6th 7 3 1 1
    7th 7 4 2 1
    8th 8 4 2 1 1
    9th 8 5 3 2 1
    10th 9 5 3 2 1 1
    11th 9 5 4 3 2 1
    12th 9 5 4 3 2 1 1
    13th 9 5 5 4 3 2 1
    14th 9 5 5 4 3 2 1 1
    15th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 1
    16th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 1
    17th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1
    18th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 1
    19th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1
    20th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 2


    Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any Devotee, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channelling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).
    A good Devotee (or a neutral Devotee who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil Devotee (or a neutral Devotee who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral Devotee of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good Devotee or an evil Devotee. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed.
    A Devotee may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Charisma modifier. A Devotee with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.

    Domain: A Devotee may choose two domains that they feel fits their character or that of their gods. As well as gaining this domain’s benefit, they add all spells from that domain to their class spell list. Spells that are already on their class spell list are instead added to their Spells Known at the level they can learn to cast them.

    At 5th level and each fifth level after, a Devotee may choose another domain, gaining all the same benefits.

    * * *

    Studied Divinity
    Prerequisites: Devotee level 1.
    Benefit: All Devotee class abilities normally based on Charisma, including spellcasting, are based on Intelligence instead.
    Normal: Devotee class abilities and spellcasting are Charisma based.

    Serene Divinity
    Prerequisites: Devotee level 1.
    Benefit: All Devotee class abilities normally based on Charisma, including spellcasting, are based on Wisdom instead.
    Normal: Devotee class abilities and spellcasting are Charisma based.
    Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2014-04-04 at 11:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Hmm... WotC have already covered this concept with the Favoured Soul, although the result was mildly disappointing, so it will be interesting to see what you do with this.

    Otherwise, you shouldn't use an apostrophe for 'devotees', because it implies that you're talking about one devotee who owns something, not several devotees.

    I'd suggest avoiding making feats that do nothing but change the key ability for something -- you'll probably find a lot of people who'll argue that intelligence is more important than charisma, but it's not so much better that it's worth a feat.

    Build the choice into the class, and add a cute little bonus effect for characters who choose wisdom or charisma.

    Most of the 'official' divine casters are expected to have at least some melee potential -- since you're avoiding that, you need to work out what else the class should be able to do, since that's probably what will make the class unique.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2011-01-10 at 12:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    Hmm... WotC have already covered this concept with the Favoured Soul, although the result was mildly disappointing, so it will be interesting to see what you do with this.

    Otherwise, you shouldn't use an apostrophe for 'devotees', because it implies that you're talking about one devotee who owns something, not several devotees.

    I'd suggest avoiding making feats that do nothing but change the key ability for something -- you'll probably find a lot of people who'll argue that intelligence is more important than charisma, but it's not so much better that it's worth a feat.

    Build the choice into the class, and add a cute little bonus effect for characters who choose wisdom or charisma.

    Otherwise, you're going to need more than just 'cleric who casts spells like a sorcerer', but you probably knew that already.
    I don't like dual casting stat. Blech. xD

    App, good call.

    I tend to make that a standard feature of my classes. Sure, MOST of them are Cha... but there's bound to be some who aren't. I like variety.

    There are some differences! I nerfed them hugely-no familiar. xD
    More seriously, the domain thing is the main interesting thing. It's hard to put class features on a fullcaster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Copy Pasta is undercooked. Starting Gold/Age is "as itself" =\

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Just putting it out there, but Devotee tends to have another meaning in modern society. In short, someone who is attracted to disabled people or people who cannot care for themselves.

    Which gives this class some color, if one reads it that light.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    It does? *blinkblink*

    Read in that light, Lix's class makes much more sense... Scary.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Second result when you google the word.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    Copy Pasta is undercooked. Starting Gold/Age is "as itself" =\
    Find/Replace, you betraaaayed meeee! (edits)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Just putting it out there, but Devotee tends to have another meaning in modern society. In short, someone who is attracted to disabled people or people who cannot care for themselves.

    Which gives this class some color, if one reads it that light.
    I've never encountered that meaning... and it does fit. I can totally see it. xD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Just putting it out there, but Devotee tends to have another meaning in modern society. In short, someone who is attracted to disabled people or people who cannot care for themselves.

    Which gives this class some color, if one reads it that light.
    I've never heard that before. By "modern society", do you mean "the darkest corners of the Internet"?

    Also, the class looks pretty good.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Thank you.

    I was worried it'd be pretty dull, as I just filed off the serial numbers of the sorcerer and added a domain thingy. But hey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Xavius View Post
    I've never heard that before. By "modern society", do you mean "the darkest corners of the Internet"?

    Also, the class looks pretty good.
    I think it's more widely circulated than that. I recall first seeing mention of it in an internationally syndicated advice column in 1995. Five or six years later, it came up (without my having mentioned it) in a discussion between university students. Not long after that, again with no link to either of the two conversations, my aunt (a physical therapist) raised the topic in the context of a hypothetical, philosophical dilemma. So, in my own experience, anyways, it extends beyond just being an internet limited term (like otherkin).

    Getting back on topic, I think the class has too many dead levels, and suffers from a bad case of 'Diet Cleric'. Further, it needs a way to be more distinct from the cleric flavorwise, as it remains a very fuzzy line between the cleric, the devotee and a favored soul.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Fair enough.

    Dead levels is pretty inescapable. Full caster and all.
    And Diet Cleric is also inescapable-it is. Same as Sorcerer is Wizard Lite.

    The flavour issue is a larger one. I'll try to work on that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    These can be Favored Soul+, =V Go steal some stuf off favored soul.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    I don't like any of the class abilities for favoured soul. xD The only decent one is wings, and monks don't fly...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Devotees get along well with Clerics and Devotees?

    Removing Turn/Rebuke would give you some more room to maneuver with giving it class features.

    I suggest letting it choose a path to go down at 1st level, much like sorcerers in Pathfinder. Each path would grant its own class features, and one domain from a small list, in addition to the freely chosen domains the Devotee gets. Perhaps choosing particular paths gives you the option of basing your spells off different stats. Here are some loose ideas, although the only ones I actually like are Contemplative Devotee and Devotee of the Crossroads.

    Martial Devotee:
    Possibly bump BAB up to medium, Weapon Focus line with deity's preferred weapon, maybe pinch some aura effects from the Marshal or somesuch.
    Domain options: Destruction, Protection, War.
    Stat Options: Cha

    Transcendent Devotee:
    Gains outsider traits, and things often associated with outsiders (wings, energy resistance) over time, much like the Favored Soul.
    Domain Options: Chaos, Evil, Good, Law
    Stat Options: Cha

    Elemental Devotee:
    Umm, better blasting? Movement modes or special attacks of the elementals you make a pact with? Standard elemental specialist stuff.
    Domain Options: Air, Earth, Fire, Water
    Stat Options: Cha, Int

    Natural Devotee:
    Can't really think of anything that isn't fluffy or a plot power.
    Domain Options: Sun, Plant, Animal
    Stat Options: Cha, Wis

    Contemplative Devotee:
    Fluff about being centred, serene and detached, striking at the right moment, etc. Abilities such as perceiving the weaknesses of others (similar mechanic to the Archivist's Dark Knowledge), and spending a standard action to gain bonuses on the next thing you do (e.g. bonuses to a skill check, saving throw or caster level check to beat SR).
    Domain options: Knowledge, Magic, Trickery
    Stat Options: Int, Wis

    Devotee of the Crossroads:
    Power over the boundary between life and death. Turn/rebuke undead, bonuses to turning, increases to number of undead it can control, etc. What would be interesting is if it got Turn and Rebuke, likely with fewer uses/day than a cleric. It would emphasise that this is someone who understands the mysteries of death beyond just knowing how to channel positive or negative energy. Note that just because a character can rebuke undead doesn't mean they will, or think it's right.
    Domain options: Sun, Death, Travel
    Stat Options: Cha, Wis?

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    I don't like any of the class abilities for favoured soul. xD The only decent one is wings, and monks don't fly...
    This is D&D. Everything flies at least once, even if only so it can be air-dropped.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2011-01-12 at 12:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    FE Monks. Not D&D monks.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    This is very interesting and reminds me of a class I am making(But still need feedback on.) This looks a lot better, however, then a favored soul and would be a fun gestalt with a Dread Necromancer. If you have any intrest in the class I am making it's basicly a tier 1 class that is ment to be a cloth wearing priest who acts as the closest thing you can get to a "batman cleric(sans archivist) and also adds a cha-based class to tier 1.(No, despite what the books says, artificers use int far more then cha.)

    If you want to help me out with my class, click the link in my sig.

    But back on topic...This is definetly better then the favored soul but dose not replace it. A favored soul gets many melee abilities and has MAD casting, so these two play very different. This guy is much more a traditional caster while a favored soul usually plays like a melee cleric without offensive casting, slapping buffs on himself and hacking people up in melee since his spells will almost always have crappy or sup-par DCs. Also, I love this guy as a Necromancer and he makes a great gestalt with a Dread Necro. A DN with acsses to cleric spells he lacks(desecrate anybody?) AND the deathbound domain? sing me up. This guy also works wonders with the contemplative class since with the right bonus domains he could have a wide range of spells to chose from. In fact, a I might just play one of these in my next game gestalted with Dread Necro provided I don't get my priest class at the point I want it by that point.
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-01-12 at 03:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Devotees get along well with Clerics and Devotees?

    Removing Turn/Rebuke would give you some more room to maneuver with giving it class features.

    I suggest letting it choose a path to go down at 1st level, much like sorcerers in Pathfinder. Each path would grant its own class features, and one domain from a small list, in addition to the freely chosen domains the Devotee gets. Perhaps choosing particular paths gives you the option of basing your spells off different stats. Here are some loose ideas, although the only ones I actually like are Contemplative Devotee and Devotee of the Crossroads.

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    Martial Devotee:
    Possibly bump BAB up to medium, Weapon Focus line with deity's preferred weapon, maybe pinch some aura effects from the Marshal or somesuch.
    Domain options: Destruction, Protection, War.
    Stat Options: Cha

    Transcendent Devotee:
    Gains outsider traits, and things often associated with outsiders (wings, energy resistance) over time, much like the Favored Soul.
    Domain Options: Chaos, Evil, Good, Law
    Stat Options: Cha

    Elemental Devotee:
    Umm, better blasting? Movement modes or special attacks of the elementals you make a pact with? Standard elemental specialist stuff.
    Domain Options: Air, Earth, Fire, Water
    Stat Options: Cha, Int

    Natural Devotee:
    Can't really think of anything that isn't fluffy or a plot power.
    Domain Options: Sun, Plant, Animal
    Stat Options: Cha, Wis

    Contemplative Devotee:
    Fluff about being centred, serene and detached, striking at the right moment, etc. Abilities such as perceiving the weaknesses of others (similar mechanic to the Archivist's Dark Knowledge), and spending a standard action to gain bonuses on the next thing you do (e.g. bonuses to a skill check, saving throw or caster level check to beat SR).
    Domain options: Knowledge, Magic, Trickery
    Stat Options: Int, Wis

    Devotee of the Crossroads:
    Power over the boundary between life and death. Turn/rebuke undead, bonuses to turning, increases to number of undead it can control, etc. What would be interesting is if it got Turn and Rebuke, likely with fewer uses/day than a cleric. It would emphasise that this is someone who understands the mysteries of death beyond just knowing how to channel positive or negative energy. Note that just because a character can rebuke undead doesn't mean they will, or think it's right.
    Domain options: Sun, Death, Travel
    Stat Options: Cha, Wis?
    Ack. Find/replace error.

    A good point, but the only real ideas I can think of are going with the anti-monster feel of the FE8 Bishop.

    They're all very good, but... complex, and to be honest more than I want to put into one class. I tend to not like changing something into a huge project unless I intended it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    This is D&D. Everything flies at least once, even if only so it can be air-dropped.
    Pillage, THEN burn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maho-Tsukai View Post
    This is very interesting and reminds me of a class I am making(But still need feedback on.) This looks a lot better, however, then a favored soul and would be a fun gestalt with a Dread Necromancer. If you have any intrest in the class I am making it's basicly a tier 1 class that is ment to be a cloth wearing priest who both acts as the closest thing you can get to a "batman cleric(sans archivist) and also adding a cha-based class to tier 1.(No, despite what the books says, artificers use int far more then cha.)

    If you want to help me out with my class, click the link in my sig.

    But back on topic...This is definetly better then the favored soul but dose not replace it. A favored soul gets many melee abilities and has MAD casting, so these two play very different. This guy is much more a traditional caster while a favored soul usually plays like a melee cleric without offensive casting, slapping buffs on himself and hacking people up in melee since his spells will almost always have crappy or sup-par DCs. Also, I love this guy as a Necromancer and he makes a great gestalt with a Dread Necro. A DN with acsses to cleric spells he lacks(desecrate anybody?) AND the deathbound domain? sing me up. This guy also works wonders with the contemplative class since with the right bonus domains he could have a wide range of spells to chose from. In fact, a I might just play one of these in my next game gestalted with Dread Necro provided I don't get my priest class at the point I want it by that point.
    Thank you.
    I think I looked at your class, but was busy/unsure how to critique.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Yeah, one thing I forgot to add...why the destruction domain? I understand you wanted something "evil" themed and offensive to be the foil of the healing domain but the Destruction domain feels too CHAOTIC evil and less generally evil for my tastes. I mean, I can hardly see a Lawful evil type running around with that domain. Thus, my sugestion would be to allow good and evil Devotees to chose between domains. A good devotee can get the Healing or Sun domain while an evil one can chose between Destruction or Deathbound. That way you keep the "opposition/foil" flavor of the domains while allowing lawful evil and netural evil characters to have a bonus domain thats not as blaitently CHAOTIC as destruction is.

    Doing that would also benifit good devotees as not every devotee of a good aligenment wants to be a party healer and the sun domain's anti-undead theme gives them a different specalty thats still a typical roll of good aligened divine casters...fighting against undead. Likewise, Deathbound acts as the perfect foil to the sun domain as it's THE domain for undead creation as far as domain powers go and it's spells are fairly nasty and evil. However, if you don't like the deathbound domain due to it's spells not actually being animation spells then the Undeath Domain is a fine replacement that acts just as well as the deathbound domain mechanically and even better flavor wise. After all, what's a better foil for a domain who's spells are focused on destroying undead then a domain who's spells focus on creating them?

    In addition, having good devotees chose between the healing and sun domains and evil ones chose between the destruction and undeath domains allows both aligenments to chose between an offensive domain and a non-offensive domain. Sun serves as the offensive good domain while destruction as the offensive evil domain. Likewise, the healing domain acts as the non-offensive domain for good while undeath acts as the non-offensive domain for evil. Thus, if an evil character is not looking to be an offensive character and a good character wants to be a bit more offensive they have a domain choice that lets them do that.

    Also, just to clarify, the healing/destruction domain powers are also granted to the devotee, correct? If not then I think it would be fitting to give the devotee the domain powers as well as spells. Also, I personally think that the healing/destruction thing should have it's own "class fearture name" instead of being lost in the spellcasting rules text but thats just me.
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-01-12 at 03:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Well, it was to fit with the way normal clerics can spontaneously cast heal/inflict spells.
    I also changed it to not be based on alignment. Evil can heal, good can hurt.
    Yes, they get the granted power.

    I probably should put it in the Domain section.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Yeah, that would be a good idea. Also, I see what your getting at....but an evil healer and a good guy with a domain called destruction(Freedom would be more approprate domain for a chaotic good character, really) is a bit...odd, flavor wise. However, for mechanics if you prefer the streamline to the complex then what you have works fine. The only issue I have with it is the fluff and fluff can be changed to fit your character concept...

    So a lawful evil character with the destruction domain would not call it that. He would just say that his dark nature makes him more inclined to work with negative energy rather then positive and instead of saying "I HAVE THE DESTRUCTION DOMAIN BECAUSE I LOVE TO BLOW STUFF UP AND KILL, KILL, KILL!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!" he can just say something like "In my quest for total power I find the ability to destroy dangerous enemies more important then the ability to preserve the lives of my pawns...After all, minions can be replaced. Dark magic that allows me to off threats to my regime cannot"... and since it's not alignment based having the destruction domain dose not automatically make you chaotic. A lawful evil Devotee could take it and just say he dose not possess such a domain but instead just works with negative energy in the same way a cleric who spontaneously casts inflicts dose, just in a slightly different way.
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-01-12 at 05:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Though, assuming I wanted a cultist of Vecna, it would be hard to sell destruction for a subtle, cunning purveyor of secrets and deception.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    So you could heal, and claim to be good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Yeah, but a cultist of vecna would be a necromancer-type and thus want REBUKE undead, not turn undead. I would say to fix that issue make turn/rebuke and healing/destruction separate choices so an evil necromancer type who wants rebuke but dose not want to be chaotic is not forced to take the destruction domain if he wants the healing. Or use my sugjestion and have good able to choose between healing and sun and evil chose between destruction or undeath.
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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Eeeh... if they want healing and rebuke that much, they do get another domain at first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Yeah, but their deity won't provide it...and the issue is not so much with them wanting the healing domain but rather wanting rebuke and NOT the destruction domain since despite flavor being maliable that domain has a very chaotic evil conotation and while you can still be lawful and take the destruction domain with this class it just dose not feel right since the domain is almost always associated with chaotic evil blood knights rather then scheming lawful evil types.

    If you really don't want to change the mechanics then I would suggest that you do away with actually giving a devotee the destruction and healing domains and instead just say they add the spells of those domains to their spells known. Sure, they lose domain powers, but you could always give them another bonus domain at level 15 and at level 20 give them some kind of capstone.(My class uses a limited ability to turn/rebuke outsiders as it's "capstone."). That way, mechanically, they get the same spells but the chaotic connotation of the destruction domain is removed since they don't get the domain but rather just it's spells. Also, while it is semantics, if you REALLY want to remove the chaotic connotation then it would be best to not even reference the destruction(and also healing) domains but rather say that the class adds these spells to their spells known at the specified levels based on alignment/ability to turn or rebuke undead in the case of neutral devotees and list the spells out.....

    While I know that's kinda a nitpick, it REALLY WOULD help the flavor of the class due to the blatantly chaotic connotation the destruction domain has. While, again, it is fluff, it is fluff that has a very strong connotation and stereotype to it and for many people playing a lawful evil necromancer who wants to rebuke but has to run around with a domain that has a strong association with baby-eating, mass murdering blood knight type characters may just be TOO weird flavor wise.

    The best way to describe how the flavor is weird is like this. Say somebody took the most horrific tale by an author like Edgar Allan Poe, and as appose to making a parody of it was "playing it strait" but presented it entirely in a form of animation that was overly happy, bright, sunny and cheery. Think like the most kiddie, bright, sickeningly cute type of animation you can think of and absolutely no darkness(sans shadows for shading.) or anything even remotely creepy looking...pink, light blue, yellow ect.. would be the most used colors and all music would be extremely upbeat and happy. That's essentially the kind of clash of flavor we have going on here.

    The destruction domain is SO CLOSELY associated with chaotic-ness, and chaotic evil in particular that the flavor for a non-chaotic character having it is just that conflicting. However, at the same time you should not force non-chaotic characters to take the healing domain because that makes it so lawful evil and neutral evil devotees can't rebuke, and that's just totally unfair to all of us who like lawful evil(and neutral evil) necromancers like myself.

    I personally don't mind being lawful evil and taking the destruction domain because it dose not force me to chaotic and I am fine with refluffing. However, I am making this argument on behalf of the MANY people who don't like blatantly conflicting flavor and feel that no amount of refluffing can get rid of the flavor clash. So, while the class is sound mechanically, this flavor clash will turn a lot of people off and while some people like myself are fine with the refluffing others will simply not take this class due to the flavor clash. While you could just tell them "If you don't like the fluff clash, play a cleric" some of them may be looking for high cha instead of high wis for RP and in that case they have no other options except homebrew their own class or perhaps look into the class I have linked in my sig.
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-01-12 at 07:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Just gonna throw it out there... I've NEVER associated the Destruction Domain with Chaos. I've also seen Chaotic Evil schemers. Xanatos Roulette anyone?

    (Not to mention the Lawful Evil blood knights. Or the Lawful Good ones.)

    Going "Rarghalagargle! Destruction Are Chaotic Evil!" isn't exactly... Yeah, it just doesn't work. Of course, seeing Lix do this (Divine Blaster, half in the flavor of FE Monks) has awakened /my/ inner brewer as well.

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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    Yeah, you do have a point. But there are people who do assoiated it with chaos though thats mostly the fault of said domain usually being offered by chaotic evil dieties. Like I said the class is mechanically sound and if the fluff is really bothersome then a person can just refluff it and say it's negative energy powers and not a domain that is usually granted by chaotic evil gods and thus used a lot by the "kill, mame, slaughter!" types. Also, a scheming chaotic evil character IS possible, but VERY uncommon. It's kinda like a smart, scholarly half-orc. It can be done but is almost always an exception to the rule.

    However, the ironic thing is that the most cited example of chaotic evil, the Joker, at least in his Nolenverse portrayal(Since I am unfamiliar with the Joker from the comics due to preferring manga over western superhero comics) is actually very far from the rather lame "I kill, rape or blow up everything I see and never have long-term, thought out plans hahahahahahaha!" type of character that some people who put chaotic evil down on their character sheet look to play. He was indeed motivated by chaos and was a proud agent of it but his planes where very structured, well thought out, effective and rather brilliant. Hardly the "spontaneous, crude schemes" typically associated with chaotic evil characters.

    But despite all of that, the class is, like I said, fine mechanically and fluff can be made into whatever a player or DM wants it to be so, as stated above, if the fluff is TOO clashing then there are other classes for you, including the Favored Soul and the cleric himself. If you want less melee and more cha then you can just homebrew your own class or play 3.Pe and be an oracle.
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-01-12 at 08:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Devotee [3.5 Divine Sorcerer]

    I was going to say pretty much what Nine said. But if someone can't fluff the ability to hurt and smite things as anything but chaotic... well, to be perfectly honest, are they imaginative enough to play a roleplaying game?

    Maybe that's just my personal prejudices coming out. But... it's such a trivial thing, and not only do I not see a flavour disconnect between destruction and law, I don't see the flavour connect that links destruction to chaos to begin with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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