Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 46
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Where the Wild Things Are
    Gender
    Male

    Default Golden's Guide to Race Building

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Part 0: Golden's Foreword
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


    Before I start, most of this work isn't mine; I'm just posting it here on the Playground and making some changes for clarity. I'll do my best to keep checking back to this thread to provide any feedback that I can. If you want to see the original thread that started this one, I will gladly redirect you to the Paizo Homebrew Forums; the original creator is a user named Voodoo Mike, and it was his compilation that most of this work comes from. His thread taught me how to make a balanced race, so I wanted to pass it on to the Playgrounders.

    Now that the pleasantries are out of the way, it's time to begin! Obviously, you're here because you want to make or adapt a race to the Pathfinder system, but are a little unsure of how to do it without upsetting your game's balance. This is perfectly fine, and it is a valid concern. If your race is too powerful for a single role, your players are not going to pick anything else but if it's too weak, you'll never see it in action! Remember that this thread is NOT for DM monsters; it is intended and designed for the PLAYERS. Not for us!

    Now that this is out of the way, let's talk about power. It's relatively agreed on that most of the core races have abilities that are worth roughly 2.5 feats, give or take. 2.5 is a funky number to work with though, so multiplying that number by 4 gives us a nice, solid 10 points to work with. This is roughly what most of the Pathfinder races are balanced around. (The Pathfinder Elf comes to 11 points while the Half-Orc comes to 9 points. Nobody's perfect.) The abilities are priced not only by what they do, but also by how desirable they are. For example, a Human's bonus feat is equal to 8 points while a Half-Elf's Skill Focus is only 4 points. That's because choosing your own feat is seen as being much more powerful, and therefore desirable, for players.

    So remember this, my friends: If you're are going to make a LA +0 race for Pathfinder and you want it to be about as powerful as a human, you get 10 points to spend. But oh ho! You can also place penalties on your race to be refunded additional points! This is where the Gnome and Dwarf's relatively large number of features come from. (That, and many of them are relatively inexpensive compared to human, which buys a Bonus Feat and spends the rest on Skilled before calling it a day.)

    Before we step off of the reality of Pathfinder Races and down the rabbit hole of our imaginations, there is one more thing we need to keep in mind. No matter WHAT, we need to keep in mind the players. Don't think about how awesome it will be to kill them with your nice race; you're making the race for your players first and foremost; if you want a Monster, go to a Monster making forum where you can do whatever you want. Here, we operate under strict rules so our players don't get rushed with too much power. If your idea doesn't fit the point value, consider adding something else and making your "cool, over-expensive features" happen via racial feats; it'll be much more balanced in the long run, and it'll give your players more choice. Remember, we don't want to make our races completely overshadow the originals. That kills roleplaying and leads to 3.5's "human or elan" problem.

    And with that, let the fun begin!

    Part One: Ability Scores
    Ability scores are the racial bonuses and penalties you receive to your Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma for playing a particular race. The six ability scores are divided into two categories; physical and mental. The physical abilities are Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution while the mental abilities are Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. All races in Pathfinder use one of two base templates when defining their Ability Score Modifiers. They are the Human Progression and the Non-Human Progression. Utilizing either progression costs the race zero points.

    Human Progression: +2 to any Ability Score
    Non-Human Progression: +2 to a Physical Score, +2 to a Mental Score, -2 to any Ability Score

    You can modify the progression further, however, by paying additional points for bonuses. You are refunded points for taking additional penalties.

    • (-4 Points) - Your race gains a -2 ability score penalty in a stat that was previously unpenalized, in a category that does not possess any other ability score penalties.
    • (-2 Points) - Your race increases the ability penalty to any ability score that it already possesses a penalty in by -2.
    • (-2 Points) - Your race negates one of its ability bonuses, reducing it from +2 to 0.
    • (-1 Points) - Your race gains a -2 penalty to any non-penalized ability score in an ability score category that already possesses a penalized ability score.
    • (+4 Points) - Your race gains a +2 bonus to any ability score, as long as that ability score's category has no bonuses in it yet.
    • (+4 Points) - Your Non-Human Progression race negates its -2 penalty to Any Ability Score.
    • (+8 Points) - Your race gains a +2 bonus to any ability score that does not already have a bonus to that stat.
    • (+10 Points) - Your Non-Human Progression race improves a +2 bonus to any ability score to +4. Your Human Progression race improves its +2 to any ability score to +4.


    Part Two: Size Category
    Your size category determines many factors, from trival fluff to the race's maximum height and weight to the size of weapons it can wield, its reach, and any size bonuses or penalties it possesses. The most common size categories for player races are Small and Medium. Utilizing the Small size category or the Medium size category costs the race zero points.

    Small Size: The race has a +1 size bonus on attack rolls and to their Armor Class but take a -1 penalty to their CMB and CMD. A Small creature has a natural reach of 5 feet and takes up a space of 5 feet.

    Medium Size: The race gains no bonuses or penalties related to their size. A Medium creature has a natural reach of 5 feet and takes up a space of 5 feet.

    Many homebrewers want to make their race's size category Large. This is not advised, as there are many sizeable benefits (heh, pun!) for being a Large creature.

    Large Size: The race has a -1 size bonus on attack rolls and to their Armor Class, but gains a +1 bonus to their CMB and CMD. A Large creature has a natural reach of 10 feet and takes up a space of 10 feet.

    When we move on to Part Five: Special Abilities, the reasoning why this is overpowered for a Human-equivelent race will make sense, but what it comes down to is that a +1 bonus to a CMB and CMD with and against a single combat maneuver by itself is worth 1 point (see the Improved and Greater Combat Maneuver feats).. As of the printing of the Advanced Player's Guide, there are 10 Combat Maneuvers, which means that without factoring in the reach benefits, being Large is worth 10 points (see Part Five for why this occurs). As more combat maneuvers are surely added, the price cost of being Large will only increase.

    Part Three: Movement Speed
    Your speed determines how many squares you can move with a single move action, which later improves to determine your traveling distance with other actions. There are different types of speed depending on how your race can move; they are burrow speed, climb speed, fly speed, land speed, and swim speed. Land speed is the most common speed for player races, and the average land speed for most player races is 30 feet. A land speed of 30 feet, from here on out, will be referred to as "Normal Speed." Modifying your land speed costs a different number of points, depending on how much you add.

    • (-4 Points) Slow Speed: A creature with a Slow Speed has a land speed of 20ft. Because of this, it takes a -8 penalty on Acrobatics checks made to jump.
    • (0 Points) Normal Speed: A creature with a Medium Speed has a land speed of 30ft. A creature with a Normal Speed takes no penalties and gains no bonuses related to speed.
    • (+4 Points) Additional Speed: Your race is naturally fleed of foot. For every 4 points you spend on your race, its base land speed increases by 5 feet. However, your race must lose this bonus, reverting to a Normal Speed if carrying a Medium or Heavy Load, as per the Fleet of Foot feat. Note that unless your race specifically receives Fleet of Foot as a bonus feat, these speeds stack. This is a another point cost that will make more sense in Part Five: Additional Abilities.


    By spending additional points, you can add additional movement modes to your race.

    • (+4 Points) Burrow Speed: Your race is adept at moving through the earth. It possesses a 30ft. burrow speed.
    • (+4 Points) Climb Speed: Your race is adept at locomotion via swinging through the trees. It possesses a 30ft. climb speed. Having a climb speed grants the creature a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. See the Climb Speed section for more information.
    • (+4 Points) Fly Speed: Your race possesses wings and is able to soar through the sky. It possesses a 30ft. climb speed with poor maneurvability. Creatures with poor maneuverability take a -4 penalty on Fly checks.
    • (+4 Points) Swim Speed: Your race is adept at swimming and can effortlessly navigate the deeps. It possesses a 50ft. swim speed. Having a swim speed grants the creature a +8 racial bonus on Swim see the Swim Speed section for more information.


    Part Four: Creature Type (Subtype)
    Player races should always have the Humanoid subtype; not being humanoid usually grants a creature with too many bonuses to be considered for a typical player race; for example, immunity to many of the low-level spells and powers that specifically target humanoids (Charm Person, Reduce Person, etc.). Having the humanoid creature type does not cost any points; anything else should be dropped for balance purposes.

    Your creature subtype denotes the various subtypes that you belong to. Subtypes do not usually apply any benefits and are used for abilities such as the Ranger's Favored Enemy and some magic items and spell effects. In any case where having a subtype grants you abilities (for example, creatures with the Earth subtype typically have a Burrow Speed and tremorsense) you most pay for those abilities in the creature's point cost if you want them; otherwise, specifically note that your race does not gain those effects. Having a subtype does not cost points, but it may require that you spend your points in places that you would not normally desire.

    Occasionally, having a subtype may be designed to play penalties on the race. In such a case, the race may be refunded points, but it should be according to how detremental the penalties are.

    • (-4 Points) The penalty either comes into play extremely often or can be expected to kill the character quickly if not dealt with. It deals massive damage or renders the character completely useless or leads to a great descrepency in power. Examples include being unable to wear magical armor or taking double damage from cold or fire effects (super vulnerability).
    • (-2 Points) The penalty either comes into play fairly often or is slightly detrimental. The penalty will either come into play often or if it seldomly does, when it is in effect it can be expected to easily hinder or completely shut down the race.
    • (0 Points) The penalty is seldom-occuring or overly specific. You cannot expcet to commonly see it without intricate GM planning to exploit the penalty. Examples include being affected by a type of spell that is specific or uncommon (such as mind-affecting abilities that target animal creatures).


    Part Five: Special Abilities
    Ah, here's the part that EVERYONE wants! The perks for being a member of a race. Usually, most of a race's point budget goes into its racial features, and most homebrewers will be compelled to do the same. Below, there is a chart with common racial abilities and the point costs associated with them. After this, there is some rules and guidelines on how to judge for yourself the power level of abilities. Remember: some abilities are actually downsides, and therefore will refund you points. The abilities will be listed from negative to positive; least to greatest.

    -4-Point Abilities
    • Vulnerability (Cold or Fire): Your race is vulnerable to the specified element, causing it to take x1.5 times damage from that type of energy damage. This ability only applies to cold damage and fire damage; they are significantly more common than the other energy types, and therefore constitute a better point refund.


    -2-Point Abilities
    • Vulnerability (Acid, Electricity, or Sonic): Your race is vulnerable to the specified element, causing it to take x1.5 times damage from that type of energy damage. This ability only applies to acid damage, electricity damage, and sonic damage.


    -1-Point Abilities
    • Extremely Situational Penalties: Your race has an achilles heel; it isn't particularly common, but under the right situations it can spell disaster for you. An example of a -1 point penalty is a Merfolk's dislike of being out of water, which has little to no actual gameplay value.
    • Light Sensitivity (as a Drow or an Orc)


    0-Point Abilities
    • Little More Than Useless: Your race has ability that is slightly more than useless because it is either negileble or extremely specific! Whoopie! (i.e. A dwarf's bonus on Appraise checks on items made of stone or gems.)
    • Weapon Familiarity: Martially inclined members of your race are trained in combat with special weapons. This ability is only a 0-Point ability if the ability treats Exotic Weapons as Martial Weapons (for example, a dwarf treating the dwarven waraxe and dwarven urgosh as martial weapons).


    1-Point Abilities
    • Combat Training: Your race has a hatred for a specific creature type or subtype, and they receive a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class when fighting creatures of that type. You must select one creature type to apply this bonus to (i.e. vs. giants).
    • Combat Defense: Your race, for whatever race, is particularly good at resisting specific techniques, granting them a +4 bonus to their CMB against one type of combat maneuver (i.e. a dwarf's racial bonus against bull rush attempts).
    • Great Resistance: Your race is well suited to resisting something, granting them a +2 bonus to their saving throws against a specific thing (i.e. an elf's bonus against enchantment spells or a dwarf's bonus against poisons).
    • Hatred: Your race has an ancient animosity against a specific creature type, granting it a +1 bonus on attack rolls against them. If you select Humanoid or Outsider, select two specific subtypes to apply this bonus to instead.
    • Low Light Vision
    • Skilled: Your race is good at something, granting them a +2 bonus to one specific skill check (i.e. a Half-Elf's +2 bonus on Perception checks)
    • Weapon Proficiency: Your race apparently trains EVERYONE in the use of several weapons. Somehow. Even the babies. Huh? Anyway, you can select up to 4 martial weapons for everyone in your race to automatically become proficient in. (such as an elf's ability to use the longsword, shortswort, shortbow, and longbow)


    2-Point Abilities
    • Amphibious: You can breathe water and air equally well.
    • Dark Vision: I don't feel like I need to explain this to an experienced gamer. Always out to 60."
    • Mad Skills: Your race is good at using several skills, granting them a +2 bonus on two specific skills. (i.e. a Halfling's bonuses to Acrobatics and Climb)
    • Half-A-Feat: This ability grants a bonus that resembles a feat, but at half effectiveness.
    • Immunity to Sleep: Your race is immune to magical sleep effects. This immunity can be applied to a different condition based on the condition in question. For example, immunity to daze or other relatively weak conditions can be considered a 2 point ability. Immunity to other conditions is not suggested; use the specific saving throw bonuses instead!
    • Improved Spell Resistance: Your race is extremely resistance to spells, increasing their prexisting spell resistance by +5. You must also buy the Spell Restance ability (+4 points) to take this one.
    • Minor Natural Attack: Your race has a weak natural attack that has devolved over time. Your natural attack deals 1d3 points of damage, though you are automatically proficient with it. (No examples, and yes, it's 1d2 for Small creatures).
    • Skilled Like a Human: Your race has got mad skillz, yo, and gains 1 additional skill point at 1st level and each time they gain a level thereafter.
    • Slow and Steady: Your speed is not reduced by wearing medium or heavy armor or while carrying a heavy load. This ability does not negate the Fleet of Foot feat (and thereby does not negate buying additional speed, as shown above).
    • Super Saver: Your race is particularly good at shrugging off a small number of effects, granting them a +2 bonus on saving throws against a set of two or three specific things. (i.e. a dwarf's bonus to Fortitude against poisons, spells, and spell-like abilities).


    4-Point Abilities
    • Armed to the Teeth: Your race either posses natural armor or is very quick, granting them a +1 bonus to Armor Class (either dodge bonus or natural armor bonus; your choice).
    • Better Natural Attack: You gain one natural attack that does 1d6 damage (tentacle or slam) or two attacks that deal 1d4 damage (claws). This damage is reduced by one step if you are a Small creature.
    • Feat Worthy: Your race gains a benefit that looks suspiciously like another feat. (i.e. a Gnome's bonus to Illusion spell DCs is exactly like Spell Focus).
    • Lucky: Your race is lucky, granting them a +1 bonus on all saving throws. (i.e. HALFLING!!!)
    • Spell Resistance: Your race is naturally resistant to spells, granting them spell resistance equal to 6 + their hit dice. (Drow got changed to this in Pathfinder and Dwarfs can pick it up in the Advanced Players Guide)


    8-Point Abilities
    • Bonus Feat: Your race picked up a little something over its time, granting it a bonus feat of the player's choice. (Oh, so THAT's where the Human's point budget went to!)


    Part 6 - Analyzing Races
    So you've seen all the buying, but you're more visual instead of reading, right? Well, I have some good news and some bad news. You're gonna need to do MORE reading, but here's the section of the thread where I give you some examples of this theory in action. I'm going to show everyone several of the common races, at very points, of course, and then show you a race I made and my reasoning behind the point cost. Let's go!

    Human
    • +2 to One Ability Score: Human characters get a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
    • Medium: Humans are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
    • Normal Speed: Humans have a base speed of 30 feet.
    • Bonus Feat: Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.
    • Skilled: Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.


    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Bonus Feat: 8 Points.
    -Skilled: 2 Points.
    ---Total: 10 points

    Gnome
    • +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength: Gnomes are physically weak but surprisingly hardy, and their attitude makes them naturally agreeable.
    • Small: Gnomes are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB) and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD), and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
    • Slow Speed: Gnomes have a base speed of 20 feet.
    • Low-Light Vision: Gnomes can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light (see low-light vision.)
    • Defensive Training: Gnomes get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant subtype.
    • Gnome Magic: Gnomes add +1 to the DC of any saving throws against illusion spells that they cast. Gnomes with a Charisma of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities:
    • 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, and speak with animals. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level. The DC for these spells is equal to 10 + the spell's level + the gnome's Charisma modifier.
    • Hatred: Gnomes receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the reptilian and goblinoid subtypes due to special training against these hated foes.
    • Illusion Resistance: Gnomes get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against illusion spells or effects.
    • Keen Senses: Gnomes receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
    • Obsessive: Gnomes receive a +2 racial bonus on a Craft or Profession skill of their choice.
    • Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes treat any weapon with the word “gnome” in its name as a martial weapon.


    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: -4 Points.
    -Low Light Vision: 1 Point.
    -Defensive Training: 1 Point.
    -Gnome Magic: 4 Points.
    -Gnome Cantrips: 4 Points.
    -Hatred: 1 Point.
    -Keen Senses: 1 Point.
    -Illusion Resistance: 1 Point.
    -Obsessive: 1 Point.
    -Weapon Familiarity: 0 Points.
    ---Total: 10 Points

    Half-Orc
    • +2 to One Ability Score: Half-orc characters get a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
    • Medium: Half-orcs are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
    • Normal Speed: Half-orcs have a base speed of 30 feet.
    • Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet (see darkvision.)
    • Intimidating: Half-orcs receive a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate skill checks due to their fearsome nature.
    • Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
    • Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for one more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
    • Weapon Familiarity: Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.


    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Dark Vision: 2 Points.
    -Intimidating: 1 Point.
    -Orc Blood: 1 Point.
    -Orc Ferocity: 4 Points.
    -Weapon Familiarity: 1 Point.
    ---Total: 9 Points

    Elf
    • +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Constitution: Elves are nimble, both in body and mind, but their form is frail.
    • Medium: Elves are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
    • Normal Speed: Elves have a base speed of 30 feet.
    • Low-Light Vision: Elves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light (see low-light vision).
    • Elven Immunities: Elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects.
    • Elven Magic: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition, elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft skill checks made to identify the properties of magic items.
    • Keen Senses: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
    • Weapon Familiarity: Elves are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), longswords, rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon.


    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Low Light Vision: 1 Point.
    -Elven Immunities: 3 Points. (Immunity and a +2 to a specific thing)
    -Elven Magic: 5 Points. (Spell Penetration and a skill bonus)
    -Keen Senses: 1 Point.
    -Weapon Familiarity: 1 Point.
    ---Total: 11 Points

    Here's one from me:

    Vulsune
    +2 Int, +2 Dex: Vulsune are quick of mind and body.
    Medium: Vulsune are Medium sized creatures, and therefore they gain no bonuses and take no penalties due to size.
    Normal: Vulsune have a 30ft. movement speed.
    Therian: Vulsune are humanoids of the therian subtype. A therian is affected by mind-affecting spells and abilities as if it was a creature of the animal type in addition to the humanoid type. If the ability does not affect creatures with an Intelligence higher than 2, the therian gains a +2 bonus on their saving throw, but is otherwise affected by the ability as if their Intelligence were 1 or 2.
    Elemental Boon - All vulsune are born under one of the four primodial elementals. At 1st level, the vulsune selects one of the following feats as a bonus feat: Air Blessed, Earth Touched, Flame Kissed, or Water Caressed.
    Instinct: . A vulsune gains a +2 bonus on Perception and Survival checks.
    Low Light Vision: A vulsune can see twice as far in low light conditions as a human (+1 pts.)
    Weapon Familiarity: Vulsune treat the bastard sword as well as any weapon with 'vulsune' in its name as a martial weapon instead of an exotic weapon.

    -Ability Scores: 4 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Therian Subtype: -1 Points (It's an extremely situational, minor penalty.)
    -Elemental Boon: 4 Points.
    -Instinct: 2 Points.
    -Low Light Vision: 1 Point.
    -Weapon Familiarity: 0 Points.
    ---Total: 10 points.

    And here's one from DracoDei, renamed and refluffed because I didn't ask xD.

    Mephian
    • +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma, -2 Wisdom: Mephians are stout of body and very sociable, but they can be extremely rash and prone to bad decisions.
    • Medium: Mephians are Medium creatures.
    • Normal: Mephians have a 30ft. movement speed.
    • Therian: Mephians are humanoids of the therian subtype. A therian is affected by mind-affecting spells and abilities as if it was a creature of the animal type in addition to the humanoid type. If the ability does not affect creatures with an Intelligence higher than 2, the therian gains a +2 bonus on their saving throw, but is otherwise affected by the ability as if their Intelligence were 1 or 2.
    • Charming Personality: Mephians gain a +2 bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks and the DC of all charm effects they use increases by 1.
    • Low Light Vision: A Mephian can see twice as far in low light conditions as a human
    • Mephian Musk: As a standard action, a Mephian can make a touch attack to a creature to douse it with mephian musk. The creature must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the Mephian's hit dice + their Constitution modifier) or become sickened for 1d4 rounds. This ability can only be used once per day, and a creature can end the sickened condition early by taking a full round action to remove it. Doing so provokes attacks of opportunities.
    • Strong Nose: Mephians gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against inhaled effects or effects that are smell-based, such as the Stinking Cloud spell.
    • Tail: Mephians gain a +2 bonus on Acrobatics checks.


    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Therian Subtype: -1 Point.
    -Charming Personality: 4 Points. (two skill bonuses and half a feat because it only applies to a specific subschool)
    -Low Light Vision: 1 Point.
    -Mephian Musk: 4 Points.
    -Strong Nose: 1 Point.
    -Tail: 1 Point.
    ---Total: 10 Points.

    Part 7: FAQs
    And before I close, here's the section where I close with some common questions.

    Q - How come you didn't include the [X] ability?
    A- Throughout the many printings and publishers, there are MANY abilities out there. Some abilities aren't included because they're simply too strong (3.5's Powerful Build for example, though I heard that Psionics Unleashed did a much better balanced redo of it) other abilities I simply forgot about. For that, I'm sorry!

    Q - How do I figure out how many points an ability costs?
    Excellent question. The best way to do this is to use 4-Point and 2-Point abilities to compare your ability to feats. If it's as good as feat, it's probably a 4-Point ability. If it's half as good, it's a 2-Point ability. Be warned though, not all feats are created equal (Power Attack vs. Deceitful) and you need to keep this in mind. Also, look at prerequisites and how the feat interacts with other abilities; Spell Focus is fine, but do you REALLY want to give your players Cockatrice Strike?

    Q - What are you talking about?! I followed the guide PERFECTLY! How is my race OP?
    A - Well friend, let me be frank. No matter what I do, I really can't write "Use your common sense!" can I? What I mean by this is simply don't min-max; you can build a broken race with 10 points, TRUST ME. Use your brain and compare your races to the existing ones. Also, when you look at a race, try to envision it in different roles. Not every Gnome is a Druid and not every Elf is a Fighter; all races have SOMETHING that lets each of them excel at melee, ranged, divine, and arcane. Make sure that your race is competent at each one in at least some way; you have a terrible Strength? Well, maybe you don't want to be a Barbarian, but that Dexterity of yours makes you a pretty good Fighter with a bow! Stuff like that. Also, if you look at your race and see the perfect Fighter, the perfect Wizard, or the perfect Psion; you're doing it wrong.

    Q - What if I want to make a Level Adjusted Race?
    Don't do it. You'll save yourself a headache. As of the Advanced Player's Guide, there's still only six "official" playable races, with several "You can if you want to" in each the Bestiary 1 and 2. Since Paizo has had no official statement on how to handle racial hit dice as a player, just don't balance around it. I personally feel that you want to keep your players on the same playing field, and even if long-term there will be an evening-out of power, in the present one of your players is probably going to be a little ridiculous.

    If you really want to go through with it (Why bother? There's no rules for it anyway in Pathfinder) then my suggestion would be to go no higher than LA +2 and use the Experience Path table to set your players apart; use the quickest possible for your LA 0 and work up from there for the other races. I'd say every 2 points above 10 would equate to another LA for simplicity, but yeah, just don't do it and you'll save everyone a huge headache. Power down those OP races!
    Last edited by Golden-Esque; 2011-01-31 at 08:55 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Mulletmanalive's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    WOTC ≱ my opinion

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Am I going mad? I would have sworn that being small was a -1 penalty to CMB/D and being large is a +1 bonus to the same...

    Was this changed or something?
    Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!
    Fae-o-matic Want a fae from folklore stated? Give me the lore and I'll do it for you!
    Le Cirque Funeste Evil Fairy Circus! Ray Bradbury, refined down to snortable powder!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Where the Wild Things Are
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    Am I going mad? I would have sworn that being small was a -1 penalty to CMB/D and being large is a +1 bonus to the same...

    Was this changed or something?
    No, you're 100% correct. I went back and fixed it. I must have been thinking of 3.5, when being Large gave you a +4 bonus on Grapple attempts. I guess it was close, considering that grapple is a combat maneuver now xD. Thanks for catching this, and the formula has been changed up in the Large Size section.

    This doesn't change my opinion on making a Large player race though; the benefits still scale as new content is published, and being Large is worth 10 points without trying to figure out how many points reach is worth (it's probably worth at least 4, given the Lunge feat adds temporary, situational reach.)

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    (Wa)^3
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    So assuming you don't end up at 9-11 points, how would you decide how many RHD to give the race (since 3.P doesn't use LA)?

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Mulletmanalive's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    WOTC ≱ my opinion

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Quote Originally Posted by ajkkjjk52 View Post
    So assuming you don't end up at 9-11 points, how would you decide how many RHD to give the race (since 3.P doesn't use LA)?
    Thus far, there's no published example of this. You'd be best designing a practical monster and then simply using the standard pathfinder "playing monsters" rule of "your effective level is equal to your CR"
    Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!
    Fae-o-matic Want a fae from folklore stated? Give me the lore and I'll do it for you!
    Le Cirque Funeste Evil Fairy Circus! Ray Bradbury, refined down to snortable powder!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Where the Wild Things Are
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Quote Originally Posted by ajkkjjk52 View Post
    So assuming you don't end up at 9-11 points, how would you decide how many RHD to give the race (since 3.P doesn't use LA)?
    There are several solutions to this. First, Paizo has a system called Experience Paths in the Core Rulebook. It lists several different variant amounts of Experience it can take to level up a character. This is a good means to effectively give a Level Adjustment to a character if you want to. If you use this variant, I'd recommend 12-13 points as a good place for one XP Track higher and 14 - 15 for two tracks higher. Anything more than 16 I would say is completely unplayable.

    However, the easier alternative is to just make sure you don't go over the 11 point limit. Balance is balance after all, and even under Level Adjustment, LA characters were still vastly superior then their LA 0 counterparts until at higher levels.
    Last edited by Golden-Esque; 2011-01-12 at 08:53 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    I'd be interested in how this race stacks up.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Where the Wild Things Are
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Puppet of Mirth Racial Traits

    • +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution: Puppets of mirth are lithe and entertaining, but have fragile forms.
    • Medium: Puppets of mirth are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
    • Normal Speed: Puppets of mirth have a base speed of 30 feet.
    • Living Construct Subtype: Puppets of mirth are sentient but ultimately artificial beings, and as such have the features and traits of the living construct subtype.
    • Low-Light Vision: Puppets of mirth can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
    • Joyful: Puppets of mirth receive a +2 racial saving throw bonus against all spells and effects that alter mood (including fear and despair effects).
    • Foolish: Puppets of mirth receive a +2 racial bonus on all Bluff, Disguise, and Perform checks.
    • Jester's Magic: Puppets of mirth add +1 to the DC of any saving throws against enchantment spells that they cast. Puppets of mirth with a Charisma of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day - dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, and hideous laughter*. The caster level for these effects is equal to the puppet of mirth's level. The DC for these spells is equal to 10 + the spell's level + the puppet of mirth's charisma modifier.
      * As a 1st-level spell-like ability.
      • Jester's Prowess (Alternate Racial Feature; replaces Jester's Magic): Puppets of mirth have access to the Falling Anvil discipline regardless of class. In addition, a puppet of mirth may choose one 1st-level strike from the falling anvil discipline and use it once per encounter (as if she picked up a strike with the Martial Study feat, although this does not count against the number of times she may select this feat).
    • Comedic Treasure Trove: A puppet of mirth is essentially a hollow shell filled with funny objects. When a puppet of mirth dies, it pops like a balloon, and all of its contents spill out onto the ground below it; these objects are various gag items, the sum of which is not worth more than 5d4 gp. The types of objects that fill any specific puppet of mirth depends on its personality and what it finds funny. In order to revive a puppet of mirth, one of its component objects (either one that fell out of the original body, or one that is otherwise purchased or obtained) must be used to summon back its soul and reform the puppet. Some sample objects include: whoopee cushions, playing cards, confetti, rubber ducks, candy, or marbles.


    -Ability Scores: 0 Points
    -Size Category: 0 Points
    -Speed: 0 Points
    -Living Construct Subtype: 11 Points
    -Low Light Vision: 1 Point
    -Joyful: 3 Points
    -Foolish: 3 Points
    -Jester's Mirth: 9 Points
    -Comedic Treasure Trove: 0 Points
    ---Total: 27 Points

    Living Construction
    Spoiler
    Show

    Immunity is 2 points per Immunity. I count Poison, Sleep, Paralysis, Disease, Nausea, Fatigue, Exhaustion, and Energy Drain. That's 16 Points on a nice day.
    They also restore half the normal amount from healing effects. That's REALLY huge. We'll say that's a 10 point disadvantage right there; that's bigger then anything I have on the chart.
    They don't need to breathe, which is effectively underwater breathing and immunity to inhaled effects. Inhaled is super specific, so I'll give it 2 points. Amphibious is also 2 points. You also have immunity to all of those cooky suffocation rules; I'll give that 1 point as well for 5 points.
    Everything else is standard humanoid rules.
    Total: 16 -10+5=11


    Joyful is three +2s. That's a 3 Point ability.

    Jester's Mirth
    Spoiler
    Show

    Adding to the DC is the equivalent of the Spell Focus feat. 4 Points.
    Heineous Laughter, even at a base DC of 12 (your racial ability) is still very powerful at low levels. I'm willing to give the kit and kaboodle an effective 5 Points though (Gnome Magic, which are ALL cantrips, is 4 Points)


    Looking over your race, two things REALLY killed this race being for Player Characters; the living construct bonuses and Jester's Mirth. This race clearly suffers from "too many good ideas"-itious. It's very fun and very flavorful, but the flavor is not balanced against other races. Here are my suggestions:

    First, I would make a new Humanoid subtype. Call it Living Doll or something new. Humanoid (Poppetoid) or something. Your pick. Drop most of the immunities; I would suggest to keep Immunity to Sleep and pay for a +2 bonus against Fatigue, Poison, and Disease since their bodies are, well, not entirely real. If you want to keep that ability that halves the healing you take, I'd give it -10 points personal, but drop the bit about spells that heal Constructs healing them; I don't think that there are many of those, to be honest, and I don't know how well the balance would work without looking at them all. Plus, you could technically heal them with Craft checks; that's a little OP.

    Second, I would say that you could give this ability to the race at 0 Points: A Martial Adept adds the Falling Anvil discipline to the list of any disciplines the Jester of Mirth has access to. They do not need to trade an existing discipline known to gain this benefit. It's definitely a good ability, yes, but adepts are mostly balanced on the number of maneuvers they know, of which, this changes nothing.

    Third, I'd either drop the spells per day and keep the feat portion or allow the race to, as a touch attack, use an effect identical to Heinous Laughter. Make it on-use once per day, DC 10 + 1/2 the Jester's hit dice + their Charisma modifier, and heck, for the fun of it say that unlike the Heinous Laughter spell, the Jester's humor translates extraordinarily well so you don't need to do the saving throw book keeping. Remember that in Pathfinder, Heinous Laughter has a chance to end at the start of each round.

    Hope this helps you out :D.
    Last edited by Golden-Esque; 2011-01-13 at 02:06 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DracoDei's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Near Atlanta,GA USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    I just woke up, so this might be a bit rambling.

    WRT Puppets of Mirth:
    There are a whole set of spells that heal constructs in the Ebberon sourcebooks... not co-incidentally this is allow where one finds the Warforged, who are a LA +0 race with the Living Construct sub-type.
    Repair Light Damage
    Repair Moderate Damage
    Repair Serious Damage
    Repair Critical Damage
    I-can't-remember-what-the-Heal-equivalent-is


    WRT the mephians:
    Asking would have been nice... I can't think of any reason I wouldn't have said yes. Not railing at you since you did link, and you did re-fluff.

    Are you sure you don't mean a RANGED touch attack? Or does Pathfinder not have that distinction?

    I would think that Therian sub-type would be worth more than -1... wait... actually, I think I may have just realized why that is... Druid in the party (or take Rich's feat that lets you base druid spells on Charisma) and then load yourself up on Enlarge Animal and whatever else you can think of. Come to that there could be cheese with Awaken... but that is such total cheese that you don't have to worry about it since any GM that allows it needs his head examined.

    1/day I can live with (trying to keep the power level down)... 1d4 rounds or Full-Round action to remove? Sticks in my craw...

    If one wanted more points 20 foot speed might be the way to go.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2011-01-13 at 12:17 PM.
    Running: Ruceeglaelsktinag IC OOC Active Map
    Power Rangers:"BIG TWIST!!" (working title) IC OOC Active Map:None.
    For everything else (including my extensive homebrew) see: Extended Signature
    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Where the Wild Things Are
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    I just woke up, so this might be a bit rambling.

    [quotes]WRT Puppets of Mirth:
    There are a whole set of spells that heal constructs in the Ebberon sourcebooks... not co-incidentally this is allow where one finds the Warforged, who are a LA +0 race with the Living Construct sub-type.
    Repair Light Damage
    Repair Moderate Damage
    Repair Serious Damage
    Repair Critical Damage
    I-can't-remember-what-the-Heal-equivalent-is
    I'll have to take a peak at the Warforged and see what I think then. If they have sizeable penalties that make up for the many pluses of being a Living Construct, I might offer some different adjustments to the Jester of Mirth. However, for the sear number of immunities they get at 1st level, I think they're a little overpowered.

    WRT the mephians:
    Asking would have been nice... I can't think of any reason I wouldn't have said yes. Not railing at you since you did link, and you did re-fluff.
    Actually, I adapted the race for my own campaign setting while ago; I want to say several months. I completely redid their society to suite my campaign; I won't bore anyone with the details here, but they are certainly an interesting race that has gotten mixed responses from my players (most depending on who doesn't mind skunks and who is terribly afraid of them xD). I didn't post the fluff here, however, so I listed you as holding credit in case some Douchey McBadbag came into the thread, screaming, "You stole that from DracoDei," effectively derailing the thread. And, of course, you were my muse for this race and I am happy to give credit where credit is due :-P.

    Are you sure you don't mean a RANGED touch attack? Or does Pathfinder not have that distinction?
    Pathfinder certainly does make that distinction, but there are several reasons why I went with the melee touch instead of the ranged touch. Most of it thematic, part of it balance, and part of it was my own insatiable quest for real world physicals in a world with magic and fairies. Although I didn't do NEARLY as good of a job as I could have filling out the fluff in this thread, I ended up going with the idea that the Mephian's humanoid characteristics have made it, dare I say, socially embarrassing to bend over, aim one's rectum at an enemy, and fire. To me, that seems a little bit impractical, so instead I envisioned an alternative where said Mephian thwacks them with their tail and sprays on contact. The idea had a little bit less ... exposure to it, plus my players didn't want to think about getting "ass flashed" as they called it when the Mephians fired xD. Plus, wouldn't bending over like that provoke attacks of opportunity? 0_o

    Naturally, this is your race and you're still playing with the 3.5 rule set, if I'm not mistaken. If you like the idea of a ranged attack, then by all means boot my rules onto the curb and send them packing home on a grand walk of shame.

    I would think that Therian sub-type would be worth more than -1... wait... actually, I think I may have just realized why that is... Druid in the party (or take Rich's feat that lets you base druid spells on Charisma) and then load yourself up on Enlarge Animal and whatever else you can think of. Come to that there could be cheese with Awaken... but that is such total cheese that you don't have to worry about it since any GM that allows it needs his head examined.
    The reason the Therian subtype is a very small penalty is because it only ends up applying to five or six spells. If you read it closely, it only affects [Mind-Affecting] spells that normally only target animals. That's the killer right there; Enlarge Animal isn't Mind-Affecting, for example, so it can't target them. Of all the spells in the game that fall into this category, only one of them doesn't have a counterpart at the same level that targets humanoids normally (that spell being Fascinate Animal). On top of that, Therians actually get a BETTER save against Animal spells then they do against Humanoid spells. It's an extremely situational negative that can sometimes screw you over, but it's not very common at all. Unless you send scores of Druids and Rangers at your opponent.

    1/day I can live with (trying to keep the power level down)... 1d4 rounds or Full-Round action to remove? Sticks in my craw...
    Trust me, my original draft was MUCH more powerful, but then I didn't have any points to spend on anything else that was fluffy! I don't like giving penalties if they don't make sense, and most of the penalties I could have placed on the Mephians didn't make sense towards what I was going for. So I nerfed Mephian Musk. I did decide, however, that I was going to add Racial Feats to give back some of the ability's sting, if the player chose to go for it. Stuff like "usable 3 + Con modifier times per day" and "activates as if it were a Stinking Cloud spell." Because of my own visual imagery, however, I doubt I'd make it a ranged touch attack personally.

    If one wanted more points 20 foot speed might be the way to go.
    But DracoDei! That's thinking like a Min-Maxer! GASP!!!!!!!!!

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DracoDei's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Near Atlanta,GA USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    *Tries to nod sagely, but ends up nodding in a thyme sort of way instead.*
    (Translation, sounds about right.)

    More Rambling:
    Was just making a suggesting with the speed thing, and it DOES fit the flavor to my mind. I understand that logical it is a bit min/maxy and perhaps illogical.
    Mepholk don't have to bend over (I could figure out the anatomical geometry if I really wanted to, but, as you noted, we are already in "brain bleach" territory), although the rest of the points about the "getting mooned" thing do apply, and I can understand having a care for your players sensibilities. IMHO You do need to explain the fluff (tail pun not intended, but it is welcome to stay since it showed up) of how the ability works... it would prevent a lot of reactions from the players (although maybe, in the full version you DID cover it)...

    I would like to see the full fluff.
    Running: Ruceeglaelsktinag IC OOC Active Map
    Power Rangers:"BIG TWIST!!" (working title) IC OOC Active Map:None.
    For everything else (including my extensive homebrew) see: Extended Signature
    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Cieyrin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Before reposting my Pathfinderized Thri-Kreen, I would like to point out that the Slow Speed penalty to jump is -4, not -8, for 20' movement. Also, Armed to the Teeth should probably be Armored to the Eye, which is the meaning your going for.

    Now, slightly revised, my PF Thri-Kreen!

    Thri-Kreen
    +2 Dex +2 Wis -2 Int -4 Cha (-3)
    Monstrous Humanoid (1)
    Move 30' (0)
    Darkvision (2)
    Sleep Immunity (2) (Immune to magic sleep effects)
    Multi-Limbed (4) (Has 4 arms: allows Multiweapon Fighting[1pt], +2 grapple[2pt), +2.5 Str when using all 4 hands on a two-handed weapon[1])
    Weapon Familiarity (0)
    Leap (1) (+5 Acrobatics when jumping)
    Wild Talent (4)
    Psionic Aptitude (0)
    Total: 11

    Thri-Kreen Paragon
    Hit Die:
    d8
    Class Skills: The Thri-Kreen Paragon’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Perception (Wis) and Stealth (Dex).
    Skill ranks at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Powers Known

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Great Leap (+10), Natural Attacks, Thri-Kreen Carapace (+1)|
    -

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Great Leap (+15), Psychic Heritage, Thri-Kreen Poison|+1 level of existing manifesting level

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Ability Boost (Dex +2), Great Leap (+20), Greater Psychic Heritage, Thri-Kreen Carapace (+2)|+1 level of existing manifesting level[/table]

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A thri-kreen paragon is proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the gythka and chatkcha. A thri-kreen paragon is not proficient in any armor or shields.
    Great Leap (Ex): A thri-kreen paragon’s racial bonus to Acrobatics when jumping increases to the amount indicated in the table above.
    Natural Attacks (Ex): At 1st level, a thri-kreen paragon hones their claws and bite into natural weapons. They gain four claw attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage as primary natural attacks and a bite that deals 1d4 points of damage as a secondary natural attack.
    Thri-Kreen Carapace (Ex): A thri-kreen paragon gains the indicated bonus to natural armor.
    Psychic Heritage (Ps): At 2nd and 3rd level, a thri-kreen paragon unlocks some of the mental powers that their ancestors once wielded. At 2nd, the thri-kreen paragon may use chameleon and know direction and location as psi-like abilities three times per day, each. At 3rd, they gain concealing amorpha and metaphysical claw as additional psi-like abilities once per day, each. Manifester level is equal to their character level.
    Powers Known: At the indicated levels, a thri-kreen paragon gains new additional power points per day and access to new powers as if he had also gained a level in a manifesting class he belonged to before. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional power points, powers known and an increased effective level of manifesting. If a character had more than one manifesting class before becoming a thri-kreen paragon, he must decide to which class he adds the level for purposes of determining power points per day, powers known and manifester level.
    If a thri-kreen paragon has no levels in a manifesting class, this class feature has no effect.
    Thri-Kreen Poison (Ex): At 2nd level, a thri-kreen paragon, through adherence to modified sleep and diet patterns, activates his racial poison glands. On a successful bite attack, a thri-kreen paragon may inject his victim with his poison. Type: Injury; Save: Fortitude DC (10 + class level + Con modifier); Frequency 1/round for 5 rounds; Initial Effect: 1d3 Dex; Secondary Effect: paralysis for 10 minutes; Cure: 1 save. A thri-kreen paragon produces sufficient poison for only one poisonous bite per day.
    Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a thri-kreen paragon’s Dexterity score increases by 2 points.

    I tweaked the Leap ability to only affect jumping, as it doesn't make sense that their grasshopper legs make them better able to tumble or balance.

    I included exactly what Multi-Limbed entails, as well as point break down.

    I dropped the point value of being Monstrous Humanoid, as, again, there are exactly 5 spells in core PF that target Humanoid, 6 if you include Hideous Laughter's "Humor doesn't translate" clause. Most spells and effects don't really care what type you are, they just ask for your touch AC, for you to roll the appropriate save or to suck it, no save. Plus, unlike the Dromites, having more than 4 limbs and other attributes really pushes Thri-Kreen outside the base Humanoid type but they're still Humanoid enough to not be an Aberration or something else, which makes them Monstrous Humanoid in my opinion.

    As for the Paragon class, I tried to model it off of the monstrous humanoid hit dice and abilities. I do worry about the poison being too much, though the low save DC may balance it if they manage to fail their save.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2011-01-15 at 04:15 PM.
    Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon

    Goblin Cannon Crew avatar by Vrythas.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Gnome Gun Mage avatar by NEO|Phyte
    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    Damn you Cieyrin! Cieyrin!!!!!read as Khaaaaan!

    My badges! :D
    My Homebrew
    The Gunslinger's Handbook
    Archetype Combo List!

  13. - Top - End - #13

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Could you check to see the current balance of Waspinator's version 4 of the main 3 my little pony types?

    I still feel he is off with them but could easily make them balanced with base races without requiring players to level adjust to use them so would like statistical back-up to see if I'm right.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    togapika's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Let's see if I can make this system work...
    I'm making a race of shark men:

    +2 Con +2 Wis -2 Cha -2 Dex (-4)
    Large +10
    Normal Speed-0
    Swim Speed:+4
    Vulnerability to Cold-4
    Amphibious+2
    Darkvision+2
    Blood Sniffing:+0 (+2 to tracking when target has taken at least 1hp of damage)
    Total:+10

    Everything is as listed
    Might also give them racial feats for a bite attack and such
    Last edited by togapika; 2011-01-30 at 02:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredaintdead View Post
    *high fives*
    Someone get this man a medal, because he either reads my posts or my mind.

    Avvy by azuyomi244
    A Warforged Warlock who thinks he's a gnome in a power-suit?

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Where the Wild Things Are
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Quote Originally Posted by invinible View Post
    Could you check to see the current balance of Waspinator's version 4 of the main 3 my little pony types?

    I still feel he is off with them but could easily make them balanced with base races without requiring players to level adjust to use them so would like statistical back-up to see if I'm right.
    Hold on, I need to go do some manly things before I review these races.
    *Runs off to the gym*
    . . .
    . . .
    . . .

    Okay, I'm good. Let's go!

    First off, you're going to want to separate the creature's size from quadruped. Being a quadruped has a specific set of rules associated with it if I'm not mistaken. Going to the d20 SRD (Paizo SRD has been down for a while :/) gives me this:

    Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. Any creature with four or more motive limbs can carry a load as a quadruped, even if it does not necessarily use all the limbs at once. I also thing there's already a rule about how having additional legs gives you a bonus against trip and bull rush maneuvers, so you might want to keep that in mind when you're building the race (you'd have to pay for quadruped based on the bonuses it gives as well; if it gives nothing but the carrying capacity, then that's a 0 point ability. If it gives tangible bonuses, you'll have to pay accordingly).

    I also want to take the time to remind you that Pathfinder does things a little bit differently from 3.5; most nonmagical options are more powerful than their 3.5 counterparts. This is mostly going to come into play when calculating their ability score modifiers, as Pathfinder gives better bonuses to those then 3.5 did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earth Pony
    • Type: Magical Beast, treated as Humanoid for the purposes of Mind-Affecting spells and abilities.
    • +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity.
    • Small Quadruped: As a Small creature, an Earth Pony gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use. Her lifting and carrying limits are the same as those of a Medium character.
    • Earth Pony base land speed is 30 feet.
    • +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, Listen, and Swim checks.
    • Stability: An Earth Pony gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
    • 1 extra feat at 1st level.
    • Automatic Languages: Common and Equine.
    • Even though they lack hands, Earth Ponies are able to use a combination of their hooves and mouths in order to manipulate items and use equipment in the way that humanoids can. Just accept it and move on.
    • Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass Earth Pony takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.
    -Ability Scores: -2 Points.
    -Creature Type: 0 Points.
    -Size: 0 Points
    -Quadruped: ?? (needs to be clarified)
    -Speed: 0 Points
    -Bonus Feat: 8 Points
    -Deleterious Hooves: 0 Points
    -Skills: 4 Points
    -Stability: 1 Point (normally would be 2, but it's not a constant effect)
    ---Total: 11 Points

    Thoughts and opinions: This race is about as powerful as an elf point-wise, but what you find out about the benefits being a quadruped grants may change this total up or down accordingly. Many of its abilities are fluff abilities so that you can mechanically play as a quadruped without suffering the penalties of doing so. Having a Dexterity bonus is a little odd to me, probably because they're horses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unicorn Pony
    • Type: Magical Beast, treated as Humanoid for the purposes of Mind-Affecting spells and abilities.
    • +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, -2 Strength, -2 Dexterity
    • Small Quadruped: As a Small creature, an Earth Pony gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use. Her lifting and carrying limits are the same as those of a Medium character.
    • Unicorn Pony base land speed is 30 feet.
    • +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, Listen, and Swim checks.
    • Stability: A Unicorn Pony gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
    • 1 extra feat at 1st level.
    • Arcane Ability: Unicorn Ponies with Intelligence or Charisma scores of 10 or higher can cast cantrips as a racial ability. They may choose one 0-level spell per +1 modifier on Charisma or Intelligence (whichever is higher) and cast that spell at-will. They are always treated as a level 1 caster for these spells and are subject to arcane spell failure, but do not need to prepare them. These spells are handled separately from any other spell-casting the Unicorn Pony may be capable of.
    • Increased Caster Level: Unicorn Ponies are considered to have +1 caster level for purposes such as spell range, duration, and damage. They do not gain any other benefits of caster level, such as class features of spells know, earlier than other races.
    • Empowered Magic: One per day, a Unicorn Pony can apply the Empower Spell feat to any spell as it is being cast without incurring the normal spell slot penalty. This must be declared before casting the spell and is lost if the spell cannot be completed for any reason.
    • Automatic Languages: Common and Equine.
    • Even though they lack hands, Unicorn Ponies are able to use a combination of their hooves and mouths in order to manipulate items and use equipment in the way that humanoids can. Just accept it and move on.
    • Favored Class: Wizard or Sorcerer. As soon as a level in either is taken, the player must decide which will permanently be considered favored.
    • +1 Level Adjustment
    -Ability Scores: +3
    -Small Size: 0 Points
    -Base Speed: 0 Points
    -Skill Bonuses: +4
    -Stability: +2
    -Bonus Feat: +8
    -Cantrips: +4
    -Increased Caster Level: +8
    -Empowered Magic: +2
    -Dexterous Hooves: 0 Points
    ---Total: 31 Points

    Thoughts and Opinions: FAR too powerful to be a LA race. This race is good. Really good. It also has a few problems. First, why would you be ANYTHING but an Arcane Spellcaster as this race? It screams Min-Max, but if you want to play as this race, you basically have to do so because it gets no other bonuses anywhere else.

    The reason I charged you so much for the caster level bonus is due to the Gnome. Yes, the Gnome. Other races that have a caster level bonus apply it to one specific thing (such as Illusions for Gnomes). The pony applies it to EVERY spell they cast. It's ridiculously good, and if it stays, it needs some reworking. First, how does it interact with their cantrips? The cantrips say they are always cast as if a 1st level caster (which is kind of lame in and of itself).

    Also, the Empower Magic thing is weird, I wouldn't keep it. If you're looking to make this a player race, here are my opinions:

    -Ability Scores: Drop the Intelligence or Charisma bonus (your choice) and either the Dexterity or Strength penalty (again, your choice). Give the pony a +2 bonus to a physical ability stat (Str, Dex, Con).
    -Cantrips: Model this after the gnome's cantrips. All I can say, really.
    -Drop the increased caster level and empower magic thing.
    ---Total: 19 Points. Even trimming all of that leaves the race at 19 points! You still have a lot of trimming to do, sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasus Pony
    • Type: Magical Beast, treated as Humanoid for the purposes of Mind-Affecting spells and abilities.
    • +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength.
    • Small Quadruped: As a Small creature, an Earth Pony gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use. Her lifting and carrying limits are the same as those of a Medium character.
    • Pegasus Pony base land speed is 30 feet.
    • +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, Listen, and Swim checks.
    • Stability: A Pegasus Pony gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
    • 1 extra feat at 1st level.
    • Gliding: A Pegasus Pony can use her wings to glide, negating damage from a fall of any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. Pegasus Ponies glide at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability). Even if her maneuverability improves, she can't hover while gliding. A Pegasus Pony can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load. If a Pegasus Pony becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, her wings naturally unfurl and powerful ligaments stiffen the wings. The Pegasus Pony descends in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter what the actual distance of the fall.
    • Flight: When a Pegasus Pony reaches 5 Hit Dice, she becomes able to fly at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability). A Pegasus Pony can't fly while carrying a medium or heavy load or while fatigued or exhausted. Pegasus Ponies can safely fly for a number of rounds equal to double their Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round). They can exert themselves to fly for up to twice as long, but then they're fatigued at the end of the flight. They are likewise fatigued after spending a total of more than 10 minutes per day flying. Because Pegasus Ponies can glide before, after, and between rounds of actual flight, they can remain aloft for extended periods (even if they can only use flight for 1 round at a time without becoming fatigued). When they reach 10 Hit Dice, Pegasus Ponies have enough stamina and prowess to fly for longer periods. They can fly at a speed of 60 feet (average maneuverability), and flying requires no more exertion than walking or running. A Pegasus Pony with flight can make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but the creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. A Pegasus Pony can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon; if the attack hits, it deals double damage. A Pegasus Pony with flight can use the run action while flying, provided she flies in a straight line. While using the run action and flying, the Pegasus Pony leaves a brightly colored trail behind them, the exact appearance of which depends on the individual Pegasus.
    • Wing Buffet: A Pegasus Pony has two wing attacks as secondary natural weapons (damage 1d6 for a Medium creature) and may make a special bull-rush attack with a range of 25ft, +5ft per two character levels once per two rounds. This is a ranged attack which must be made with the Pegasus Pony's wings, and the Pegasus Pony does not move with his target, but otherwise functions as a normal bull rush.
    • Shielding Wing: The Pegasus Pony may encase themselves in their own wings, gaining a +4 shield bonus to AC when they take the total defense action, +1 per three character levels.
    • Cloudwalking: A Pegasus Pony can tread on clouds or fog as though on solid ground. The ability functions continuously but can be negated or resumed at will. They may also otherwise interact with clouds as though they are made of a solid material, at DM discretion.
    • Automatic Languages: Common and Equine.
    • Even though they lack hands, Pegasus Ponies are able to use a combination of their hooves and mouths in order to manipulate items and use equipment in the way that humanoids can. Just accept it and move on.
    • Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass Pegasus Pony takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.
    • +1 Level Adjustment
    Ugh, I only had to glance at the amount of text to know that this one is going to be a headache T_T.

    Ability Scores: -2
    Small Normal Speed Quadruped: 0 Points
    Skills: +4
    Stability: +2
    Bonus Feat: +8
    Gliding/Flying: +4
    Natural Attack: +4
    Shielding Wings: +2 Points
    Cloud Walking: +8 Points
    Total: 28 Points

    Thoughts and Opinions: Well, that wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be! To be honest, this race has a LOT of weird mechanics that are hard to gage the point values of. In my opinion, you should try to make as many of these abilities resemble pre-existing abilities as possible; ingenuity is fun and all, but if there's at least SOMETHING I can compare it to, it makes the point system a lot easier to go by.

    This is another one of those situations where Pathfinder does things differently. Flying is kind of different, sort of, but not so much so that it changes this class feature. I think waiting until the Wizard is high enough to cast fly for this ability is a good idea, though I think I would make it a racial feat instead of part of the race, personally. How do you measure the value of something you don't get right away? Also, instead of the gliding thing I'd just say that they always fall as if under the effects of a Feather Fall spell. So much easier!

    Overall on all of the Ponies: The major place that ALL of your races become overpriced at is the bonus feats. In my opinion, races other than humans should either get specific feats or pick from a list; choosing any feat you want should be the human's perk, because once you start giving it to everyone else, then the human is overshadowed. If your players want to play as humans, let them! More so in Pathfinder than in 3.5, one extra feat is not going to usually make or break your build.

    Another important thing to remember is Making Sense vs. Making Balance. There are TONS of things that just make sense for your race, but you can't or shouldn't always include them because of balance. Maybe trimming one some of those millions of bonuses your races have might help a bit :P.

    Quote Originally Posted by togapika View Post
    Let's see if I can make this system work...
    I'm making a race of shark men:

    +2 Con +2 Wis -2 Cha -2 Dex (-4)
    Large +10
    Normal Speed-0
    Swim Speed:+4
    Vulnerability to Cold-4
    Amphibious+2
    Darkvision+2
    Blood Sniffing:+1
    Total:+11

    Everything is as listed, blood sniffing would be a +2 to tracking when the target is bleeding, and the ability to smell blood close range...
    Might also give them racial feats for a bite attack and such
    Normally I'm a huge advocate against making Large-sized player races (see above), but vulnerability to cold damage is huge, and other then Large-sized this race gets no extremely powerful abilities, so I think I'm okay with that here.

    Everything looks good, except for Blood-Sniffing. First, you need to clarify exactly how it works. What constitutes as "Bleeding," and how long does that penalty last? If they're shark-people, does this benefit only lasts in the water? (blood takes longer to coagulate in water because of the lower concentration of oxygen or something like that) Give me a more specific rule on how the ability works and I'll be able to critique the race better; other then that, I'd say that this ability is ridiculously situational and doesn't warrant a point, leaving the race at 10 points.
    Last edited by Golden-Esque; 2011-01-30 at 01:40 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    T.G. Oskar's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    If the point-based class balancing system has taught me anything, is that balancing things based on points isn't usually a good idea. They're better done based on a different rationale: I'd suggest JaronK's tier system for classes as a good point, though even it requires some work (but it tries to analyze the classes based on their utility assuming a similar level of optimization). It's not a bad idea, to balance each race based on the others, but the problem lies mostly in that some things may be redundant to each other, thus reducing their worth.

    For example: I observed the rationale for Living Construct, and I found it should be lower than expected. It's only one part of the racial traits, but it's important to consider each point based on how much that trait will be useful within the game, and how something else might counteract that point. Thus:

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden-Esque View Post
    Immunity is 2 points per Immunity. I count Poison, Sleep, Paralysis, Disease, Nausea, Fatigue, Exhaustion, and Energy Drain. That's 16 Points on a nice day.
    Let's go with this point by point. Immunity value shouldn't be blanketed; some immunities are better than others.

    Poison: Arguably a useful immunity, but one that's situational. It's one of the immunities that can be solved with a good Fort save: if the race has poor Con and is meant for poor Fort classes, then a 2 is pretty much worth it. This is the case, hence it remains 2 points.

    Sleep: Sleep is only useful at the beginning of the game, where you might find creatures using sleep effects. Later on, the uses of sleep effects become more and more distant, until the biggest CR menace with a sleep effect that comes to memory is a good-aligned dragon. So it loses its worth, and if you have a race with good Wis or bonuses to Will saves and/or a race with good Will scores, you'll rarely get hit. With Dex and Cha, you might expect probably a Beguiler which has good Will scores; furthermore, the strongest core spell I can recall that deals with sleep effects is Deep Slumber, and you become immune to it right around the moment it goes into play (5th level, because it can only affect 10 HD worth of creatures and your Will save might be strong enough to counteract). Thus, immunity to sleep might be a 1 point bonus, 0 points if going strictly with benefits.

    Paralysis: Always an important one. Again, this is like poison, but it has the real threat of instant death. However, paralysis is even more limited than poison: the biggest effect would be Hold Monster (or Mass Hold Monster), and that's a Will saving throw. So it would be 2 points base, but 1 point if you don't find most people that use Hold Monster; if your Will save is off the roof, the immunity might come to play even less.

    Disease: Much like poison, but even more hilarious. Really. You see, immunity to disease only works well against two types of diseases: mummy rot, and lycanthropy. This is because those are the two core-based diseases that cannot be removed that easily. The rest rely on Fortitude saves, and a good Heal score can eliminate them. Finally, the chance of landing a disease is so high, you'll rarely see yourself using it; enemies might, but that's because disease is mostly a challenge for players. Even then, the incubation period and effect period are so distant to each other, it will only be challenging during the first 5 levels; once you get Remove Disease even on a scroll, the challenge is gone. 1 point maximum, but I'd really give this a 0 because the challenge is pretty much not there.

    Nausea: If nausea and disease were part of the same immunity (and sickness as well), disease would have a higher worth: nausea is, much like daze and stun, one of the most common action economy disabling attacks you have. Working as poison, if you have low Fort and the creature is meant for low-Fort classes, then it's useful. I'd rate it 2, quite probably 3 if nausea were a bit more common (and with Stinking Cloud, it probably is, but SC has its own stuff to watch out).

    Fatigue/Exhaustion: Never, EVER, place fatigue and exhaustion separately. It's like triplicating the worth of immunity to fear just because you're immune to shaken, frightened and panicked. Having said that: fatigue is rare to see used IN battle; it's something that's seen outside of battle. Exhaustion only happens if you're affected by fatigue although some abilities take you directly to exhausted. Both require a Fort save, and the penalties are so-so based on each choice: -2/-6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity hurts pretty much everyone, but if you already have an average Strength and Dexterity score and you don't use those scores anyways, it's less of a hit. Puppets of Mirth seem better for bard or beguiler-related classes, so the hit to Dexterity will hurt more than the hit to Strength. Even then, a very simple spell such as Lesser Restoration will keep them in optimum condition, so the immunity is rather limited. I'd keep it 2, but closer to 1 IMO.

    Energy Drain: Different from poison, the penalties for Energy Drain are severe. You take a hit to everything, and you can just keep taking more hits which intensifies the effect. 3, and that's being conservative; such an immunity is best worth 4.

    So, summing all up, you get 10/11 as a conservative estimate. That's taking Energy Drain as 3 and most on their minimal scores. Far cry from the 16 you claim, but that's depending (again) on the class they choose.

    As a specific point: Paladins get immunity to fear and disease. Both immunities don't do much to add to their power as Divine Grace does. Generally, a boost to saving throws is slightly more powerful than an outright immunity, if only because saving throws affect everything. If you affect all three saving throws, you gain a massive boost on defenses. That's why it's not recommendable to place immunities on a blanket; because if boosting your saving throws (your primary defense) does a much better work of resistance, then the immunity becomes slightly unnecessary (only on a roll of 1, and that's such a rare event that it might be inconsequential).

    They also restore half the normal amount from healing effects. That's REALLY huge. We'll say that's a 10 point disadvantage right there; that's bigger then anything I have on the chart.
    That's relative. Not only do they get half effect from conjuration (healing) spells (that means Wholeness of Body, Lay on Hands and non-conjuration based spells work nice), they can't heal naturally. Period. That's the big hit, though HP can be repaired through Craft (rather than Heal). Exactly how much that's a hit can't be measured appropriately, since you get the same damage from Inflict Wounds (because you aren't immune to negative energy effects) but also from Inflict Damage spells (being a construct, of course). Go wild with that hit, but consider that they aren't affected by ALL healing effects, just a few.

    They don't need to breathe, which is effectively underwater breathing and immunity to inhaled effects. Inhaled is super specific, so I'll give it 2 points. Amphibious is also 2 points. You also have immunity to all of those cooky suffocation rules; I'll give that 1 point as well for 5 points.
    Now, here's something I think you didn't consider. Most of the effects dealing with inhaling are either poisons or diseases, so you get here a redundant immunity. This shouldn't count as immunity, because otherwise you'd have to count all redundant immunities as separate things; and as I mentioned, fatigue and exhaustion are generally tied because one condition is effectively the improved version of the other (much like daze and stun, sickness and nausea, shaken/frightened/panicked). Thus, you should reduce 2 points from that. I'll admit there are some moments where the inability to breathe is an advantage (Crisis of Breath, probably smoke) but the DC to resist that is not that brutal (except for Crisis of Breath); the immunity becomes important if you're constantly on a place where suffocation happens, so that's almost an entirely separate immunity.

    Amphibious nature is only a mild benefit that works when you're on a largely anaerobic environment; generally, you'll be on places with a good amount of air, so the benefit you'd get would be quite minimal; again, reduce to 1 or even 0 because the benefit is not THAT crucial.

    Suffocation is the result of being on anaerobic spaces, so you'll usually want to be on places where there's air. You have that immunity; the rest of the party doesn't, so it's less of a crucial ability and more of a quirk. 1 point is reasonable, but 0 would be closer to the point.

    There's one more thing I'd like to consider: living constructs, based on their construction, are vulnerable to effects that would affect objects. Warforged, the base living construct, has vulnerabilities to rust monsters, Heat Metal, Chill Metal and Repel Metal or Stone; if anything, that would be a 1 point disability based on how common those are. Generally, unless you're on places with extreme temperatures, this doesn't come to play very much, so it's fine to consider it as a 0 point disability; however, it should be considered as part of the racial abilities. Presuming puppets of mirth are made from wood, anything that affects wood constructs will affect them, so keep that under consideration.

    So in general, you'd get 10-11 points worth of the immunities (based on the type of race you're trying to create; could be lower or higher), -6 or -10 worth the healing disability (-6 if you have good access to non conjuration based healing, -10 if the only healer is a cleric and a wand of Cure Light Wounds), and up to 2 points benefit from the inability to breathe (hence "water breathing" and immunity to suffocation). All in all, that's between 0 and 7 points based on the subtype only, and that's being generous on the latter one. The range of difference is such, you couldn't really define a standardized benefit out of the living construct subtype, except that immunities seem like a lot until you realize that the DM might not be attacking them that much.

    Thus, with that explanation, the puppet of mirth (as a brief example) would get a reduction between 3-10 points out of its perceived "balance score", making the balancing act a bit closer to its main abilities rather than its subtype. If you wish to keep using this as a guide, be my guest; however, as a piece of advice, don't try to go for standardized scores because otherwise you'd be inflating the worth of some abilities that might rarely, if ever, come into play.

    Another example? Jester's Mirth. Really, it should cost one third that amount, if not less. Reason? Enchantment is blocked pretty easily: of all four spells, only Hideous Laughter is a threat, and if you have something like Protection from (Alignment) or even a non-ability at Intelligence, you won't get affected. Undead are very numerous on early levels, and on later levels you'll find creatures with different forms of immunities towards enchantments and mind-affecting abilities. That's a real problem with standardized abilities, because each spell you grant has worth based on how useful it may be in general and how useful the player makes the spell.

    Then you can go with the rest, and you can realize that their worth is based exclusively on the utility you might get from it. If you're going with Bard or Beguiler (which is the expected entry point), then a puppet of mirth is really, really, really good; otherwise, it's not that good, and the balance point goes off scale. Just a heads-up, because while the guide seems good, the point-based balancing system isn't; an explanation of why X or Y thing is more useful on a per-case basis and a general idea on how to build a race would work wonders. The premise is good (trying to prevent the "human or elan" problem) but goes into an entirely different problem (the "monks are overpowered because they have lots of abilities while sorcerers are underpowered because they only get familiars and spells" problem).
    Retooler of D&D 3.5 (and 5e/Next) content. See here for more.
    Now with a comprehensive guide for 3.5 Paladin players porting to Pathfinder. Also available for 5th Edition
    On Lawful Good:
    Quote Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc View Post
    My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.
    T.G. Oskar profile by Specter.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Where the Wild Things Are
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Really, really huge wall of text.
    I mean wow, that's a lot of text. I'll try to address some things, in your post, but the blunt of what I have to say in response is this:

    The pricing of a large majority of the abilities that you are complaining about isn't big and their advantages aren't insanely good. This is intention. Pathfinder's system, for the most part, is based off of the idea that 10 points is roughly equal to two and a half feats. This means that 4 points is roughly worth a feat, so yeah, some races are going to have a lot of small benefits (Dwarf & Gnome) while others just have one big one (Human).

    Statement #1: Balancing races against each other is a bad idea because it makes them redundant.

    No offense dude, but this is basically what you say in your very first paragraph. I highly disagree with this. There are a LOT of abilities you can choose from on this chart alone, and it leaves for a lot of room for rational comparison. Like I said, most of the system is based on the idea of 4 points equaling a feat, so as long as you have points to spend and feats to base your ideas off of, you can theoretically make any race you want.


    Statement #2: Some immunities are better than others.

    I agree with you on this. Immunity to fear effects is much better than immunity to the dazzled condition. Let's face it, for the most part it's the Dungeon Masters and Game Masters of the community that would use a guide like this to build a race; personally, I would never let my player hand me a custom-made race they built and allow it in my game unless I went through it and made sure that not only was it balanced, but it fit in my setting. I expect most GMs (especially on this forum) to either have a good sense of balance or to seek answers and feedback on their creations. I can add something about which immunities would be a good choice, but ultimately if your GM homebrews overpowered material, there isn't much I can do about it :/.

    I also disagree with you on the value of specific immunities. For example, immunity to inhaled effects technically makes you immune to the suffocation condition, which isn't much at the beginning of the game, but gets huge towards the end. There are tons of spells and traps at end game that attempt to suffocate their victims, making this one of the immunities that scales well.

    Statement #3: X Class gets Y as a class feature, so that means Z.

    We're not talking about classes, we're talking about races. Don't try to compare the two; class features (much like feats) aren't balanced exactly the same. The difference is, though, that for feats like Deception that provide a flat bonus, there's a different point equivalent for (almost) the same effect. Use that instead.

    Statement #5: You were totally unfair to living construct!

    I stand by my analysis of the living construct subtype. I agree that half effectiveness of healing is a huge hit, but I don't agree with the natural healing bit. Natural healing is 1 hit point per hit die; it's not a huge loss at all, and it's not difficult to be healed for that much; especially considering that a skill check can repair you. Also, compared to every other race save other living constructs, there are ridiculous benefits in immunities alone. Sure, healing you is a pain in the butt, but you can easily bypass plenty of game mechanics and story elements.

    Also, I noticed that you didn't dispute my stance on the healing disability, but you disputed every single one of my stances on the immunities. None of them overlap, just so you know. While some effects are covered under multiple immunities, each one provides immunity to something that the others cannot cover, which gives living constructs a huge umbrella of things they are completely unaffected by. Many of the immunities may never see play; you're right. But the fact remains that your bases are so thoroughly covered that even if they never come up, you can play under the assumption that if they do come up, it doesn't matter to you. Safety of mind is a powerful thing indeed.

    Statement #6: This benefit does nothing in Y situation!"

    It doesn't matter. Plain and simple. If you want a race that stands up to LA 0 standards, then you need to balance by their rules. Sprinkles may not be very high in calorie content compared to the chocolate syrup you put on your ice cream, but the more you pour onto your treat, the more calories stack; they don't look at each other and say "Hey there, we're not THAT fatting compared to the chocolate syrup! Let's hold back a bit on clogging this person's arteries, m'kay?" Your basic argument seems to be that the ability "is only as useful as the players make it" which is not an argument in your favor at all. For people trying to make LA 0 races, this guide works great. You can do a lot with it based on these restrictions.

    Statement #7: My race is only REALLY good if you pick a specific class!

    Someone clearly didn't read my guide very well! One of the first things I say is that a well balanced race avoids this problem; a race shouldn't never, ever be one that is only good at one or two classes. This is terrible for balance, because if the class is amazing at one or two classes but terrible at every other one because of your players. They're going to look at a race like that and say, "Well, I guess I HAVE to pick this race if I want to be a Bard. Otherwise, I'll suck." You can't expect your players to avoid metagame thinking; you need to make it as hard to do as possible. Character creation in D&D or Pathfinder is only fun if the choices matter; once you take away the choice, you take away the fun.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kellus's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Frozen North
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    When we move on to Part Five: Special Abilities, the reasoning why this is overpowered for a Human-equivelent race will make sense, but what it comes down to is that a +1 bonus to a CMB and CMD with and against a single combat maneuver by itself is worth 1 point (see the Improved and Greater Combat Maneuver feats).. As of the printing of the Advanced Player's Guide, there are 10 Combat Maneuvers, which means that without factoring in the reach benefits, being Large is worth 10 points (see Part Five for why this occurs). As more combat maneuvers are surely added, the price cost of being Large will only increase.
    This is ludicrous. Having +1 to 10 different combat maneuvers by virtue of being Large is not equivalent to having 10 different abilities which each give you a +1 bonus. By this logic the gnome should be getting a price break of 10 free points to spend on other stuff, since he takes a penalty on all those rolls.

    Your CMB is equal to your BAB + your Str modifier + your size modifier + your roll. Your CMD is 10 + your BAB + your Str + your Dex + your size modifier.

    A +2 to Str gives all the benefits you claim are overpowered for being Large, and more stuff besides.

    There are valid reasons why being Large is hard to do as a player, mostly involving typical dungeons, but a +1 to your CMB and CMD are not among them.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Mayhem's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Very interesting, just like JabbaTheWhat's feature points. However there are a few things that need to be reworked a little bit such as what Kellus pointed out, but that'll come in time. I'm working on assessing about 2 dozen races using this system, so I think that'll turn up a whole lot of stuff that might have been overlooked.

    If there's no more posts before I'm done, I'll edit them in here.

    Edit: Alright, here they are. These are from Umbragia found at the bottom of the page here.
    Spoiler
    Show

    ACOTA
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +4 to Strength; -2 to Intelligence, Wisdom,
    and Charisma.
    Medium Size.
    Base Speed: 40 feet.
    Great Health: Acota always roll Hit Points using two dice and take the higher of the two results.
    Natural Outdoorsmen: +2 on the skills Balance, Climb, Handle Animal, Hide, and Wilderness Lore.
    Spellblind: Acota cannot take the Dragon Touched feat and therefore cannot cast arcane spells.
    Tough-skinned: Due to a tough hide, Acota apply their Constitution bonus to their Armor Class.
    Uneducated: The Acota do not have centers of learning. Coupled with a very short lifespan, they receive only half the normal number of skill points for each level of experience.
    Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: None. Due to the lack of education facilities, Acota rarely speak more than one language. Acota have no native tongue.
    Favored Class: Barbarian.

    Determining Ability scores' worth
    Spoiler
    Show

    There's two ways to approach this, I'll look at both of them.
    Non-human method.
    •+10( Non-Human Progression race improves a +2 bonus to +4)
    •-2( Your race negates one of its ability bonuses)
    •-1( race gains a -2 penalty to any non-penalized ability score in an ability score category that already possesses a penalized ability score)x2
    ________
    = +6

    Alternatively we can look at it from the human perspective:
    •(+10) - Human Progression race improves its +2 to any ability score to +4
    •(-4 Points) - Your race gains a -2 ability score penalty in a stat that was previously unpenalized, in a category that does not possess any other ability score penalties.
    (-1 Points) - (Your race gains a -2 penalty to any non-penalized ability score in an ability score category that already possesses a penalized ability score)x2
    ________
    = +4

    I think I'll go with the human one, since not being able to choose your score is weaker.


    -Ability Scores: 4 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 8 Points.
    -Great Health: 2 Points. ( worth somewhere around toughness in strength)
    -Natural Outdoorsmen: 4 Points. ( Many of those skills are very specific- I'd argue they're not even worth as much as +4)
    -Tough-skinned: 4 Points. ( worth around as much as armed to the teeth)
    -Spellblind: -1 Points. ( Not even really a penalty)
    -Uneducated: -4 Points.
    -(Bonus Languages, None) + (Humanoid( Acota)): -1 point ( both campaign specific)
    ---Total: 16 points.
    Comments:
    Due to the setting have no 'common' language, having no bonus languages can be a pain. However, due to their intelligence penalty they aren't very likely to even qualify and add to the fact that most other PCs will speak multiple languages, it isn't a huge deal.
    Uneducated is quite nasty and stays with them for their entire career. However due to their speed bonus and skill bonuses, they are somewhat recompensated for this.
    For their ability scores I argue that it's simply not worth +6 points on its own- it's not even worth +4 points really.
    Concerning speed, this point system would have be believe it's worth two "Fleet of Foot" feats plus half of 'Slow and Steady,' which is 9 points. That's just too much so in readjusting it, I'll just ignore the extra 1 point. "Fleet of Foot" could presumably be a prerequisite feat, and a +10 moves peed bonus isn't that hard to get, so I don't think it's worth as much on that basis.


    AESIR
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +2 to Dexterity and Wisdom; -2 to Strength.
    Medium Size: As medium sized creatures, Aesir have no
    special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
    Base Speed: 30 feet. Typical speed for a medium-sized
    creature.
    Adaptability: An Aesir may choose two skills to add to the
    list of ‘class skills’ at first level. Each even level (2nd, 4th, etc)
    beyond first, s/he may select an additional skill to add to this
    list. The skills chosen cannot be exclusive skills.
    Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: Minstrel.

    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Adaptability: 2 Points.
    -Bonus feat: 8 Points.

    ---Total: 10 points

    Comments:
    Strangely for a 3.0 race it already has pathfinder ability scores. However this also happens to be its primary racial feature sadly, but since they're human I'll give them a bonus feat to boost their power to an acceptable standard.


    DAERMIN
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +2 to Constitution and Wisdom; -2 to Dexterity.
    Medium Size: As medium sized creatures, Daermin have no
    special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
    Base Speed: 30 feet. Average speed for medium-sized
    creatures.
    Endurance: Daermin receive the feat Endurance for free.
    Hightened Awareness: Daermin receive the feat Blind Fight for free.
    Mental Focus: Daermin receive a racial bonus of +4 on the skill Concentration.
    Spellblind and Spell Immunities: Daermin cannot take the feat Dragon Touched and thus cannot cast arcane spells. Additionally, Daermin are immune to sleep and charm spells.
    Automatic Languages: Common and Daermin. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: Fighter

    -Ability Scores: -2 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Endurance: 4 Points.
    -Heightened awareness: 4 Points
    -Mental focus: 2 Points
    -Spellblind and Spell Immunities: 2 Points
    ---Total: 10 points
    Comments:
    Strangely for a 3.0 race this one fits pathfinder perfectly.


    ELGARPH
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +2 to Dexterity and Intelligence; -4 to Strength.
    Small Size.
    Base Speed: 25 feet
    Cultural Adaptability: Elgarph have a natural feel for cultures and traditions. Individuals may make an Intelligence check at Difficulty Class 10 (modified by the degree oddity for the situation) to determin the proper course of action in any given situation.
    Fast Healing: Elgarph have the extraordinary ability of Fast Healing for 2 points every round.
    Slave Mentality: Elgarph have a physiological need for constant instruction or the slowly spiral into depression. For each day s/he does not have a set of defined duties, s/he takes permanent ability damage, losing 1d4 Intelligence and 1d4 Wisdom (rolled separately). If either score ever reaches 1, the character begins to lose 1 Hit Point per day (2 if both scores are at 1), and no longer heals naturally. Should instruction ever be restored to the character, the ability damage from Slave Mentality is converted from permanent to temporary, and can be healed both naturally and magically.
    Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: None

    -Ability Scores: -1 Point.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: -2 Points.
    -Cultural Adaptability: 2 Points.
    -Fast Healing: 8 Points. (?)
    -Slave Mentality: -1 Point
    -Favored Class, None: -1 Point
    ---Total: 5 points

    Comments:
    Roleplay heavy race, and aimed more for NPCs rather than players so it's fine if it's a bit weak.


    GOUMIN
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +2 to Wisdom and Charisma; -2 to Strength and Constitution
    Medium Size.
    Base Speed: 20 feet.
    Collected: Gouman receive a racial bonus of +4 to resist any and all effects of fear, intimidation, diplomacy, sense motive, etc.
    Increased Encumberance: Gouman may carry 20% more weight than their strength would normally indicate.
    Keen Vision: Goumin see four times as well as a human in all light conditions (reduce all penalties for vision related checks by 75%). Additionally, this ability grants a +4 racial bonus to Spot and Search checks.
    Manual Dexterity: Goumin receive a racial bonus of +2 on any use of skill where fine motor control could be a benefit (Dungeon Master’s call). Examples include Pick Pocket and Open Locks.
    Automatic Languages: Common and Goumin. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: Druid

    -Ability Scores: -1 Point.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: -4 Points.
    -Collected: 5 Points.
    -Increased Encumberance: 2 Points.
    -Keen Vision: 5 Points
    -Manual Dexterity: 2 Points
    ---Total: 10 points
    Comments:
    As usual for whats seen from Umbragia races so far, this race is pretty reasonable for pathfinder as is.


    GYOR
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +2 to Dexterity and Wisdom; -2 to Strength
    Medium Size
    Base Speed: 30 feet.
    Calculator: Gyor receive a racial bonus of +2 on the skill Appraise and all Profession skills. Additionally, the Dungeon Master may add a bonus to any skill where the intuitive understanding of numbers and economics would be of benefit.
    Natural Spells: Gyor have a natural ability to cast spells. Upon reaching puberty, Gyor begin casting spells without training. By the time they are full grown, they may cast several spells. These spells are always cast as a 1st level caster, and each may only be used once per day. Gyor characters get a number of spell slots equal to four plus one per point of Intelligence and Wisdom bonus. Cantrips take one slot, first level spells take three slots. The number of cantrips must be greater than the number of first level spells.
    For example: a Gyor with an Intelligence of 9 and a Wisdom of 14 would receive (4 base slots, plus 0 slots for having no Intelligence bonus, plus 2 slots for having a Wisdom bonus of +2) 6 spell slots. The player looks it over and decides that his Gyor character will have three cantrips and a first level spell and selects Mage Hand, Detect Magic, and Daze for the cantrips and True Strike for the first level spell.
    Thin-skinned: Gyor always roll Hit Points using two dice and take the lower of the two results.
    Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: Rogue

    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Calculator: 2 Points.
    -Natural Spells: 6 Points.
    -Thin-skinned: -2 Points
    ---Total: 6 points
    Comments:
    I'm not too sure on the balance on this one, depending on the interpretation of the natural spells ability. They could presumably be limited by armour, but it seems that they can choose any wizard spells they want each day so I'm not sure how to rate it.


    HAITIR
    Well this will use the pathfinder human conversion.


    IZHAN
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +4 to Constitution, -2 to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
    Medium Size: As medium sized creatures, Izhan have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
    Base Speed: 30 feet.
    Automatic Languages: Common and Izhan. Bonus
    Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: None. Izhan may only be Clerics, Fighters, Rogues or
    Mages. Mages, although available, are very rare.

    IZHAN-EM
    Ability Scores: +2 Strength (this is in addition to the scores
    listed above)
    Great Health: Izhan-em always roll Hit Points using two
    dice and take the higher of the two results.

    IZHAN-OR
    Keen Hearing: Izhan-or may hear four times as well as a
    human. This will allow the race to distiguish between similar
    sounds, pick out a single voice in a crowd, etc. Additionally,
    this ability grants a +4 racial bonus on Listen checks.
    Silence: Izhan-or make very little noise. Izhan-or recieve a
    racial bonus of +4 on the skill Move Silently.

    IZHAN-RU
    Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity (this is in addition to the scores
    listed above)
    Tough-skinned: Due to a tough hide, Izhan-ru apply their
    Constitution bonus to their Armor Class.

    Izhan-Em
    -Ability Scores: 10 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Great Health: 2 Points
    -Favoured Class, None: -1 Point
    -Class limitation: -1 Point
    ---Total: 10 points.

    Izhan-Or
    -Ability Scores: 4 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Keen Hearing: 4 Points
    -Silence: 2 Points
    -Favoured Class, None: -1 Point
    -Class limitation: -1 Point
    ---Total: 8 points.

    Izhan-Ru
    -Ability Scores: 10 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Tough-Skinned: 4 Points
    -Favoured Class, None: -1 Point
    -Class limitation: -1 Point
    ---Total: 12 points.
    Comments:
    Fairly reasonable, though a very roleplay heavy race.


    KHUTAI
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: As human.
    Medium Size.
    Base Speed: 25 feet. Khutai are hampered in speed a little by their mode of movement (slithering).
    Cold-Blooded: Khutai cannot operate in colder temperatures. They take double damage from cold-based attacks, as well as taking damage from prolonged exposure to temperatures below 50ºF. For every hour of exposure, Khutai take 1 point of damage, plus an additional 1 damage for every 10 full degrees below 50. For example, at 0ºF, Khutai take 6 damage per hour. Optionally, a generous Dungeon Master may drop this to 1d6 damage per hour.
    Enchanting Voice: Khutai have a naturally soothing and hypnotic voice. Anyone who hears and understands the Khutai is apt to believe her/him. Treat this as a continuous Charm Person spell that the victim recieves a bonus of +4 to save against. Once a victim saves, they are immune to the effects of that individual’s voice for the next hour. Additionally, as a normal action, once per day, the Khutai may enhance their voice further. This acts as a Charm Person spell that the victim recieves a penalty of –4 to save against.
    Sharp Teeth: 1d6 bite.
    S’ira: Khutai start with 0 points of S’ira (it may never be negative). Each time they do something that detracts from the Khutai race, s/he accumulates a point of S’ira. Each time they do something that enhances the Khutai race, s/he looses one point of accumulated S’ira. This effect is entirely at the judgement of the Dungeon Master. For every 5 full points of S’ira accumulated, Khuta receive a racial penalty of -1 on all die rolls.
    Tough-skinned: Due to a tough hide, Khutai apply their Constitution bonus to their Armor Class.
    Automatic Languages: Common and Khuai.
    Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: Cleric

    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: -2 Points.
    -Tough-Skinned: 4 Points.
    -Cold-Blooded: -5 Points.
    -Sharp Teeth: 4 Points.
    -S’ira: -1 Point.
    -Enchanting Voice: 8 Points.
    ---Total: 8 Points.
    Comments:
    Enchanting voice is quite strong, but that and tough skinned are there only bonuses and they come with a whole heap of drawbacks.


    LUKAR’R
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +2 to Strength.
    Medium Size.
    Base Speed: 35 feet
    Compulsive Honesty: Lukar’r cannot lie. Ever.
    Focused Strength: Lukar’r have the ability to gain short bursts of tremendous strength. S/he may use this ability once per day, plus one additional use per point of Constitution bonus. Each use grants her/him a 50% bonus to their strength for one minute. Immediately following each use, s/he suffers a 50% penalty to their strength for the next thirty minutes.
    For example, an average Lukar’r with a strength of 12, focuses their strength gaining a bonus of (12 x 50%) +6 for a total of 18 Strength. After one minute, the character’s strength drops to 50% normal (or 6) and will stay that way for the next thirty minutes.
    Lunar Influences: Lukar’r have personalities that are tied to the phases of the moon. When the moon is full, they are calm, slow to anger and easy to deal with. When the moon is new, they are edgy, irratable and generally tough to deal with. While calm (full moon +/- 4 days), they gains a racial bonus of +2 to all skills they have at least one rank in. While edgy (new moon, +/- 4days), they suffer a penalty of -2 to all skill rolls.
    Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: Figher

    -Ability Scores: -1 Point.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 5 Points.
    -Focused Strength: 6 Points.
    -Lunar Influences: 0 Points.
    -Compulsive Honesty: -1 Points.
    ---Total: 10 Points.
    Comments:
    Focused Strength would be quite powerful if they could also be a barbarian. Thankfully this isn't the case, however it's still pretty strong.



    NATHAS
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +2 to Wisdom and Charisma; -2 to Strength.
    Medium Size.
    Base Speed: 30 feet.
    Fearlessness: Nathas are immune to effects of intimidation, fear, horror and the like. This does not mean that they are foolhardy, just that they never loose their calm and ability to think rationally.
    Hard to Kill: Nathas gain the Diehard feat as a bonus feat at first level.
    Keen Smell: As per the SCENT ability.
    Automatic Languages: Common and Nathas. Bonus
    Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: Any.

    -Ability Scores: 1 Point.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Fearlessness: 2 Points.
    -Hard to Kill: 4 Points.
    -Keen Smell: 4 Points.
    ---Total: 11 Points.
    Comments:
    Actually a bit on the strong side here, I think the half-orc's ferocity ability would suffice for hard to kill.


    NIMORI
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +2 to Dexterity and Wisdom.
    Medium Size.
    Base Speed: 40 feet.
    Colorless Vision: Nimori cannot detect colors of any kind, seeing the world in black and white and shades of gray. The vision of a Nimori is not adept at detecting stationary objects, either. Thus, they suffer a -2 penalty on spot checks.
    Focused Reflexes: Nimori have the ability to gain short bursts of tremendous speed, reaction and balance. S/he may use this ability once per day, plus one additional use per point of Constitution bonus. Each use grants the character a 50% bonus to their dexterity and speed for one minute. Immediately following each use, the character suffers a 50% penalty to their strength (not dexterity) and speed for the next thirty minutes.
    For example, assume an average character with strength and dexterity 10, speed 30 feet. When using this ability, gainse a bonus of (10 x 50%) +5 Dexterity and (30 x 50%) +15 feet speed. After one minute, the character’s strength and speed drops to 50% normal (5 and 15 respectively) and will stay that way for the next thirty minutes.
    Increased Sleep: Nimori need 50% more sleep than normal (12 hours per day) to be effective. Additionally, they suffer a -2 penalty to resist sleep spells and spell-like effects.
    Keen Hearing: Nimori hear four times as well as a human (reduce all penalties for hearing related checks by 75%). This will allow the race to distinguish between similar sounds, pick out a single voice in a crowd, etc. Additionally, this ability grants a +4 racial bonus on Listen checks.
    Sharp Claws: Claws 1d6.
    Automatic Languages: Common and Nimori. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: Ranger

    -Ability Scores: 4 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 8 Points.
    -Focused Reflexes: 6 Points.
    -Colorless Vision: -1 Point.
    -Increased Sleep: -1 Point.
    -Keen Hearing: 4 Points.
    -Sharp Claws: 4 Points
    ---Total: 22 Points.
    Comments:
    Yep, definately a 3.5 LA+1 race.


    POLYMARIE
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +2 to Constitution and Wisdom.
    Medium Size.
    Base Speed: 15 feet; 60 feet (swim).
    Aquatic (salt-water): Polymarie are aquatic and are dependent upon submersion in salt-water for survival. S/he must submerge her/his body in water for one hour each week (note: a week in Umbragia is 8-days long). If s/he does not accomplish this by the end of day eight, s/he is treated as though s/he is fatigued. S/he will suffer from 1d8 damage (non-healing) each 6-hours following the 8th day. At any time before death, this can be corrected by being submerged. Once submerged, the s/he will recover 1d8 of the damage suffered in this manner for each full 3-hours of submersion.
    Fast Healing: Polymarie have the extraordinary ability of Fast Healing for 3 points per round.
    Gills: Polymarie may breathe normaly underwater and may not drown. Polymarie are amphibious, and thus may function out of the water as well.
    Magic Dampener: Polymarie disrupt the flow of magic in their general vacinity. All use of arcane magic within 50 feet of the individual (meaning the caster is within 50 feet of the Polymarie when the spell was cast) is treated as though the target had Spell Resistance +15. This will effect all spell use, even spells where SR normally does not apply. Divine magic is uneffected.
    Automatic Languages: Common and Polymarie. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: None

    -Ability Scores: 4 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Focused Reflexes: 6 Points.
    -Aquatic (salt-water): -1 Point.
    -Favored Class, None -1 Point.
    -Gills: 2 Points.
    -Fast Healing: 8 Points
    -Magic Dampener: 4 Points.
    ---Total: 20 Points.
    Comments:
    Too strong.

    QUINA
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +2 to Dexterity; -4 to Wisdom; -2 to Strength,
    Constitution and Intelligence.
    Small Size.
    Base Speed: 30 feet.
    Ambidexterity: Two-weapon fighting feat.
    Chamleon: Quina naturally blend into their surroundings. This gives them a racial bonus of +2 on the skill Hide as well as a +2 Armor Class bonus.
    Tail: The tail strikes with a reach of 5 feet doing 1d6 damage.
    Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: None

    -Ability Scores: -10 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Ambidexterity: 4 Points.
    -Favored Class, None: -1 Point.
    -Chamleon: 6 Points.
    -Tail: 6 Points.
    ---Total: 5 Points.
    Comments:
    Very weak race. Regarded( By other races) as little more than animals, I suppose that's to be expected.


    SHADAHS
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: -2 to Constitution
    Medium Size: As medium sized creatures, Shadahs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
    Base Speed: 30 feet (if the Shadahs can fly, s/he has a speed of 60 feet in the air)
    Dying Race: Shadahs characters may (at the Dungeon Master’s option) suffer from one of the character flaws listed below.
    Sharp Claws: Claws 1d6
    Tough-skinned: Shadahs add their Constitution bonus to their Armor Class.
    Winged Flight: Shadahs have wings. Not all of them can fly, however. Those that can have a speed of twice their ground speed. Shadahs also lack the ability to hover when they fly.
    Automatic Languages: Common and Shadahs. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: Fighter.

    -Ability Scores: -8 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Winged Flight: 8 Points.
    -Sharp Claws: 4 Points.
    -Tough-skinned: 4 Points.
    ---Total: 8 Points.
    Comments:
    The flight ability is quite good, and it's intended to be balanced with a flaw. However, since the race has ability score drawbacks, I think it's ok as is.


    VANIR
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +2 to Strength and Charisma; -2 to Dexterity
    Medium Size.
    Base Speed: 35 feet
    Natual Talents: Vanir receive a bonus feat at 6th, 12th and 18th levels.
    Aural Spirit (non-Kristophen Vanir only): Vanir are highly sensitive to personality, intentions and emotions. They receive a +2 racial bonus on the skills Animal Empathy, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Innuendo, Perform, and Sense Motive.
    Aural Taint (Kristophen Vanir only): Vanir are highly resistant to all forms of Divinition. Treat this as a Spell Resistance 15 against all forms of divinition spells and spelllike abiltities.
    Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: Fighter (Kristophen Vanir) or Cleric (non-Kristophen Vanir)

    Kristophen Vanir
    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 5 Points.
    -Natual Talents: 2 Points.
    -Aural Taint: 4 Points.
    ---Total: 11 Points.

    Non-Kristophen Vanir
    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 5 Points.
    -Natual Talents: 2 Points.
    -Aural Spirit: 4 Points.
    ---Total: 11 Points.


    VASYL
    Spoiler
    Show

    Normal
    Ability Scores: +2 to Dexterity and Charisma; -2 to Strength
    Medium Size.
    Base Speed: 30 feet.
    Manual Dexterity: Vasyl receive a racial bonus of +2 on any use of skill where fine motor control could be a benefit (Dungeon Master’s call). Examples include Pick Pocket and Open Locks.
    Mage Sense: Vasyl can feel the presence of magical and spiritual energies. Treat this as though s/he were constantly casting the spell Detect Magic (this is involuntary. The longer s/he stays in the area, the more potent the reading of the area is going to be). This is a spell-like ability.
    Night Vision: Vasyl can see four times as far in low light conditions as a normal human. In normal daylight, s/he can only see half as far as a normal human. Normal daylight is also somewhat uncomfortable.
    Thin-skinned: Vasyl always roll Hit Points using two dice and take the lower of the two results.
    Automatic Languages: Common and Vasyl. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: Any.

    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Mage Sense: 4 Points.
    -Manual Dexterity: 4 Points.
    -Night Vision: 0 Points.
    Thin-skinned: -2 Points.
    ---Total: 6 Points.
    Comments:
    Slightly weak, I'm considering giving them a bonus to intelligence.

    TORIC NA’KTU
    Ability Scores: As human.
    Medium Size.
    Dark Vision: Toric Na’ktu can see equally well in total darkness as a human can in normal daylight. Normal daylight is still as uncomfortable for

    them as it is for a typical Vasyl.
    Spellblind: Toric Na'ktu cannot take the feat Dragon Touched and thus cannot cast arcane spells.
    Tough Skinned: Toric Na’ktu get to add their Constitution bonus to their Armor Class.
    Automatic Languages: Common and Vasyl. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: Fighter

    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Dark Vision: 2 Points.
    -Spellblind: -1 Point.
    -Night Vision: 0 Points.
    -Tough Skinned: 4 Points.
    -Manual Dexterity: 4 Points.
    ---Total: 9 Points.
    Comments:
    They were also quite weak, so I gave them manual dexterity to round them out a bit more.



    XXYXX
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +2 to Wisdom
    Medium Size.
    Base Speed: 30 feet.
    Additional Arms: Xxyxx have six limbs.
    Hard to Kill: Xxyxx gain the Diehard feat as a bonus feat at first level.
    Tough-skinned: Xxyxx get to add their Constitution bonus to their Armor Class.
    Xxyxx Sense: Xxyxx can, via antennae, detect minute vibrations in the air. This has many effects, such as granting her/him the equivalent of low light vision (being able to ‘see’ twice as far in low light conditions). Additionally, a Dungeon Master may rule that certain feats are more effective (such as Blindfighting), or even assess penalties to anyone attempting to sneak up on her/him, etc.
    Automatic Languages: Xxyxx. Bonus Languages: Any (cannot be spoken).
    Favored Class: None. Multiclass Xxyxx always suffer an XP penalty.

    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Hard to Kill: 4 Points.
    -Tough-skinned: 4 Points.
    -Xxyxx Sense: 4 Points.
    -Additional Arms: 4 Points.
    -Favored Class, None: -1 Point.
    -Cannot speak anything other than Xxyxx: -1 Point.
    ---Total: 14 Points.


    ZYNAR
    Spoiler
    Show
    Ability Scores: +2 to Dexterity and Constitution; -2 to Strength
    Medium Size.
    Base Speed: 35 feet. With their powerful legs, they are slightly faster than most.
    Internal Clock: Zynar have an uncanny awareness of the passage of time. They instinctively know exactly how much time has passed, even

    without any form of reference. Internal Compass: Zynar have an uncanny awareness of direction. They instinctively know exactly what

    direction is north, even without any form of reference.
    Sharp Teeth: Zynar have very sharp teeth. They may do 1d6 damage (piercing) with a successful bite in combat.
    Ultra-hearing: Zynar have hearing that extends well beyond the normal range allowing them to hear higher and lower frequencies of sound than

    a normal human. This also confers a +6 racial bonus on Listen checks as well as any attempt to hear something, intuit the direction a sound

    came from, etc. In some circumstances, they could even track someone by sound alone. This also rendered the individual more suseptable to

    sonic-based attacks (DM’s call).
    Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any.
    Favored Class: Ranger.

    -Ability Scores: 0 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 5 Points.
    -Internal Clock: 1 Point.
    -Sharp Teeth: 4 Points.
    -Ultra-hearing: 2 Points.
    ---Total: 12 Points.
    Last edited by Mayhem; 2011-05-07 at 07:26 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #20

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    If I'm indeed right that the way Hasbro had them used that the following are the rules to Cutie Marks:

    1. Can only have as many cutie marks as your character has personalities, all of which are to be chosen by the DM(s) rather the the player(s) controlling the character(s). (Remember there is a different between bipolar or so personality and multiple personalities even if the latter also has 1 or more of the former within them.)

    2. The cutie mark that is visible to see to see at any point is based on the character's personality their personality in charge.

    3. If multiple personalities are in charge of the character at the same time than the cutie marks that represent each of the controlling personalities rotate in a cycle.

    4. If somebody tries to get a cutie mark by forcing it than they are straight out denied the cutie mark every time they do so.

    5. If the character's cutie mark is beyond recommission once your character is dead than anybody whom attempts to resurrect that character can forego trying to restore the cutie mark so they don't have to deal with the penalty of getting the mark wrong rather causing a new blank flank status expect if the resurrecter is the character being resurrected whom than must always attempt to restore the cutie mark to its previous state than.

    6. Cutie marks don't carry over between reincarnations.

    7. Cutie mark is determined when 1 or more facts of the character are so strongly represented by the character at a time they aren't trying to force them as such.

    and 8. Cutie marks are only visible in a race form that the race's template states the race is associated with cutie marks.

    than they would fall under Extremely Situational Penalties costing the race -1 points or rather gain 1 point to spend on other abilities hence not needing their own section in the race builder.


    However, I feel the Belly Badges of the Care Bears need to be in the race builder at the +8 cost seeing as they do make them way more powerful rather than just represent them. And I think this is the way many Internet users were trying to take the cutie marks when they should only be representing the respective characters they are on rather than actually make them tougher in anyway.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tanuki Tales's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Out of curiousity, why was the Half-Orc's Orc Ferocity rated as being 4 points? It's half as useful as true Ferocity (if that) and Ferocity itself is subpar compared to the actual feat Diehard. So that ability ends up being half of a half-feat but costs as much as if another race directly copied Diehard instead as a racial feature?

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    I was looking at your stats for character creation for different races and I noticed something

    Halflings Racial Traits
    +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength: +0
    Small: +0
    Slow Speed: -4
    Fearless: +2 racial bonus on against fear. +1
    Halfling Luck: +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. +4
    Keen Senses: +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks. +1
    Sure-Footed: +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb skill checks. +2
    Weapon Familiarity: Halflings are proficient with slings and treat any weapon with the word “halfling” in its name as a martial weapon. +0

    I total that up and it comes to a measly +4
    Are halflings simply the most under powered race in the game or did I miss calculate something?

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2011

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    I got a concept going but a lot of question marks to answer. My GM is letting me play test this in a few weeks starting him at level 6

    Concept: reverse lycanthrope. These are wolves that transform or transform partway into humans. Think Tera West from the Dresden Files.

    CLASS RESTRICTIONS:
    Can not be the following: Paladin, Barbarian, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Witch, Sorcerer, Wizard, Magus (-?)
    +2 Con +1 Dex +2 Wisdom -2 Charisma (2)
    Medium
    Sacred Wolf Guardians Subtype: Shapechanger
    DR 10 /Silver and Arrows
    Change Shape: Modified only druid class can shift into completely human unlimited shifts/day shifting in combat takes 2 rounds but at start of combat can fully shift as a swift action provided not ambushed (?)
    Vulnerability: Sonic (-2)
    Lowlight Vision (1)
    +4 Sharp Senses (2)
    Weapon Proficiency: greatsword, Longbow, quarterstaff, spear (1)
    Scent (1)
    Bite
    Improved Natural attack (shifted Only) (3)
    Metal armor can not be shifted between forms. All leather cloth, leather, or hide armors can including dragon
    Speed: 40 unshifted 30 shifted

    I know i am going to catch flak for the class restrictions. I am doing that for fluff reasons and I will be doing a full fluff right up eventually
    Last edited by ORCACommander; 2011-12-18 at 05:24 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Caracas, Venezuela
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Thanks for the guide! I made the Drow and Avariel races for my campaign, since I couldn't find them anywhere... So let me share them...

    Drow:
    • +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Constitution: Drow are nimble, smart, and manipulative but share the elven lack of stamina that most other races posses
    • Size: Medium (have no bonuses or penalties due to their size).
    • Speed: Normal (30 ft).
    • Vision: Darkvision 60 ft.
    • Keen Senses: Drow receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks.
    • Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light blinds a dark elf for 1 round; on subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area. After long periods, they can got accustomed to live in the light, thus overcoming the dazzled effect.
    • Drow Weapon Familiarity: Drow are proficient with weapons of the crossbow and light blade weapon subgroups (see Fighter class), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” or "drow" in its name as a martial weapon.
    • Poison Use: Drow are trained in the use of poison and cannot accidentally poison themselves when applying poison to a blade.
    • Spell-Like Abilities: Drow can cast detect magic 3/day as a spell-like ability. When a drow reaches 5th level in any combination of classes, it gains faerie fire as a spell-like ability usable 1/day, at 7h level, it gains darkness usable 1/day, and at 8th level, it gains levitate (only) usable 1/day. A dark elf’s caster level is equal to its total Hit Dice.
    • Spell Resistance: Drow have spell resistance equal to 6 + their character level.
    • Languages: Drow begin play speaking Common and Undercommon as well as any other bonus language they gain from possessing a high intelligence. They also get Drow Silent Sign Language as a bonus language.


    Avariel:
    • +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Strength, -2 Constitution: Avariel spend most of their lives airborne, becoming more dexterous every day; their angelic wings make them as beautiful as fey, but they lack in constitution like other elves, and they are weaker than they look due to their light musculature and hollow bones. (-8 Points: Non-Human Progression & -2 penalty in same category)
    • Size: Medium (have no bonuses or penalties due to their size). A Medium creature has a natural reach of 5 feet and takes up a space of 5 feet.
    • Speed: Normal (30 ft). A creature with a Normal/Medium Speed has a land speed of 30ft and takes no penalties and gains no bonuses related to speed.
    • Flight: Your race possesses wings and is able to soar through the sky. It possesses a 60ft. fly speed with excellent maneuverability (no penalties on Fly checks), as long as they do not carry more than a Medium load, are not wearing heavy armor, and are not fatigued or exhausted. If avariels carry a heavy load or wear heavy armor, their flight speed drops to 30 feet with poor maneuverability (-4 penalty on Fly checks). An avariel’s wing span is typically 12 feet, and cannot fly in an area that does not allow them to fully extend their wings. (+8 Points)
    • Vision: Eagle-Eye Vision. Avariel can see twice as far as human in any condition, including moonlight, starlight or torchlight and similar conditions of poor illumination (as per Low-Light Vision). Avariel retain the ability to distinguish colors at these conditions. (+2 Points)
    • Hollow Bones: Avariel receive a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks. (+1 Points)
    • Keen Senses: Avariel receive a +4 racial bonus on Perception checks. (+2 Points)
    • High altitude adaption: Avariel can breathe without problems up to 20.000 feet above sea level, and have Cold Resistance 5. (+3 Points)
    • Diving Charge: When flying, an avariel may make a dive attack, which functions just like a charge. To do so, the avariel must descend at least 30 feet and make a single attack with a piercing weapon. If the avariel makes a successful hit, he deals double damage. (+2 Points)
    • Armor Customization: Avariels must have their armor specially customized to allow them to use their wings for flight, and therefore pay an additional 50% of the armors base price to buy it or alter it. (-1 Points)
    • Weapon Familiarity: Avariels are proficient with spears, longswords, rapiers, and crossbows of any type, and treat any weapon with the word “elven” or "avariel" in its name as a martial weapon. Avariel tend to stay away from bow weapons (unlike their cousins, drawing a bow in flight interferes with their wings) and anything that cannot be used while in mid flight (they dislike heavy two-handed slashing and bludgeoning weapons which require them to stay grounded for proper use). (+1 Points)
    • Languages: Avariels begin play speaking Common, Avari and Elven. Avariels with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Auran, Celestial, Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Caracas, Venezuela
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Dark Sun's Mul
    • +2 Str, +2 Con: As a race breed to fight, Muls are tough and strong. (+4 pts)
    • Size: Medium (have no bonuses or penalties due to their size).
    • Speed: Normal (30 ft).
    • Vision: Normal.
    • Dwarven Blood: Mul’s count as both humans and dwarves for any effect related to race. (+1 pts)
    • Mul Vitality: +2 to Fortitude Saves against fatigue and exhaustion. Muls also get a +2 racial bonus to checks for performing a physical action that extends over a period of time (running, swimming, holding their breath, and so on, but only when it extends for some time). This bonus stacks with the Endurance feat. (+2 pts)
    • Tireless: A Mul only needs to sleep 6 hours (consecutive) in a 72 hour period to feel rested. (+1 pts)
    • Incredible Toughness: +2 to all Fortitude Saves. This effect stacks with Mul Vitality. (+3 pts)
    • Languages: Common, Dwarven


    You can see the whole list of all my homebrew races, created using Golden's Guide to Race Building, at https://sites.google.com/site/tsolre...se-rules/razas

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2012

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    There are several races that I think should be playable depending on the type of campaign you are playing (such as orc, goblin, and hobgoblin), that have significantly higher scores than any of the base races, according to this method:

    Orc:

    • +4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma: Orcs are brutal and savage.
    • Darkvision: Orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
    • Ferocity: An orc remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0. It is still staggered and loses 1 hit point each round. A creature with ferocity still dies when its hit point total reaches a negative amount equal to its Constitution score.
    • Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled as long as they remain in an area of bright light.
    • Weapon Familiarity: Orcs are always proficient with greataxes and falchions, and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.


    -Ability Scores: 8 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Darkvision: 2 Points.
    -Orc Ferocity: 4 Points.
    -Light Sensitivity: -1 Point.
    -Weapon Familiarity: 1 Point.
    ---Total: 14 Points

    Goblin:

    • –2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, –2 Charisma: Goblins are fast, but weak and unpleasant to be around.
    • Small: Goblins are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
    • Fast: Goblins are fast for their size, and have a base speed of 30 feet.
    • Darkvision: Goblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
    • Skilled: +4 racial bonus on Ride and Stealth checks.


    -Ability Scores: 7 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Darkvision: 2 Points.
    -Skilled: 4 Points. (since they get +4 instead of +2 to two skills)
    ---Total: 13 Points

    I realize that the +4 on two skills should probably cost more than 4 points based on the way you have set up the rest of this.

    Hobgoblin:

    • +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution: Hobgoblins are fast and hearty.
    • Darkvision: Hobgoblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
    • Sneaky: Hobgoblins gain a +4 racial bonus on Stealth checks.


    -Ability Scores: 10 Points.
    -Size Category: 0 Points.
    -Speed: 0 Points.
    -Darkvision: 2 Points.
    -Sneaky: 4 Points.
    ---Total: 16 Points

    The hobgoblin would only have a score of 10 (only need 4 points for ability scores) if you ignore that you can't start with +2 bonus to two physical scores.

    I realize these are all "monster races" but they all seem like they should be playable, and I don't think any of these races are overpowered compared to the standard base races. Also, I agree that giving a half-orc a score of 9 seems pretty generous ... it should probably be more like 7. Half-orcs are pretty terrible compared with humans. As a GM, I usually buff them a little by allowing them to have the full version of orc ferocity so it isn't a practically useless ability (as Diehard is better than an orc's ferocity ability anyway). It seems to make them a little more balanced. That said, I also give hobgoblins a -2 on charisma, and have some homebrew rules for orcs as well.


    Another thing I noticed is that it seems like it should be worth more than 2 points (I definitely think it is better than most of the other 2 point abilities). The human bonus skill points ability is really good.

    Overall it seems like a pretty decent system for players to be able to make up their own races, and puts some reasonable limitations on that to keep power gamers from exploiting it too much. As a GM though, I think it is a little too limiting, even if you are designing races that are intended to be playable. I think that particularly the amount of points it costs to get +4 on a particular ability or +2 on two physical or mental abilities seems a little too steep. Maybe reducing those costs by a point or two would be a little more reasonable, but still keep things balanced.

    Anyway, I just thought I would put in my two cents. What do you guys think?

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Statesville NC
    Gender
    Male

    Post Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    Hi, Ive been using your guide for a while now and have been trying to peice togather a set of homebrew races. But I have hit a snag. Here is the skeliton stats of the race i was working on:

    Ildaren
    Plant(human subtype)
    -2 Dex(not flxible)
    +2 Con(sturdy)
    +2 Wis(used to paying attention to their surroundings and meditating)

    -Medium(no bonuses)
    -Space: 5ft Reach: 10ft(Ildaren have very long arms)
    -Speed 30ft
    -Natural Armor +1
    -Skilled in Wood working(+2 craft) and Hide(+2 stealth to hide in forests)
    -Vulnerable to Fire and Acid attacks. Can also catch fire(their body, not just
    equipment.)
    -Immune V.S. Sleep
    -Low Light Vision

    Reach: ? points
    Plant Type(Humanoid Subtype)
    -Vulnerable to fire: -4 points
    -Vilnerable to Acid: -2 points
    -Low-light vision: 1 point
    -Immune to sleep: 2 points
    Mad Skills(Hide in forest and wood working): 2 point
    Armoed To the Teeth: 4 points

    I thought that reach might be worth about 6 points, but I wanted to check and see how this race balanced out in your opinion.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    i have created this racial ability. what do you think it's worth? here it is


    Life Blade: While a Serai has their Life Blade, they gain a +2 to Strength and to Constitution. Once a Serai has lost claim to his Life Blade, they lose all their strength and Wisdom, and become petrified. They become normal upon regaining their Life Blade. They are considered proficient with their Life Blade.

    {{Scrubbed}}
    Last edited by Mark Hall; 2012-08-28 at 09:45 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Where the Wild Things Are
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    So this is going to sound really silly, but I had no idea that people actually used this thread anymore. 0_0 I've been off co-writing Secrets of Pact Magic, Vol. 1 for Radiance House publishing so I haven't really been in the Playground much these past few months.

    I'll try to answer whatever I can, but please keep in mind that I A) did not write this system (I state so in the first couple paragraphs) and B) I personally use the race builder in the Advanced Race Guide now because its more of a universal standard, what with it being an official product and all :).


    Quote Originally Posted by Silverseraph View Post
    I was looking at your stats for character creation for different races and I noticed something

    Halflings Racial Traits
    +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength: +0
    Small: +0
    Slow Speed: -4
    Fearless: +2 racial bonus on against fear. +1
    Halfling Luck: +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. +4
    Keen Senses: +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks. +1
    Sure-Footed: +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb skill checks. +2
    Weapon Familiarity: Halflings are proficient with slings and treat any weapon with the word “halfling” in its name as a martial weapon. +0

    I total that up and it comes to a measly +4
    Are halflings simply the most under powered race in the game or did I miss calculate something?
    Yeah, halflings are very bad in this systems. In the [i]Advanced Race Guide[i], they're only 1 point behind standard (10 rp). It really comes down to how highly you prize those racial bonuses on skill checks; this system does not prize it very highly.


    I got a concept going but a lot of question marks to answer. My GM is letting me play test this in a few weeks starting him at level 6

    Concept: reverse lycanthrope. These are wolves that transform or transform partway into humans. Think Tera West from the Dresden Files.

    CLASS RESTRICTIONS:
    Can not be the following: Paladin, Barbarian, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Witch, Sorcerer, Wizard, Magus (-?)
    +2 Con +1 Dex +2 Wisdom -2 Charisma (2)
    Medium
    Sacred Wolf Guardians Subtype: Shapechanger
    DR 10 /Silver and Arrows
    Change Shape: Modified only druid class can shift into completely human unlimited shifts/day shifting in combat takes 2 rounds but at start of combat can fully shift as a swift action provided not ambushed (?)
    Vulnerability: Sonic (-2)
    Lowlight Vision (1)
    +4 Sharp Senses (2)
    Weapon Proficiency: greatsword, Longbow, quarterstaff, spear (1)
    Scent (1)
    Bite
    Improved Natural attack (shifted Only) (3)
    Metal armor can not be shifted between forms. All leather cloth, leather, or hide armors can including dragon
    Speed: 40 unshifted 30 shifted
    I don't like this set of racial features. First, restricting classes is a pointless way to "restrict" a race's power because it doesn't handicap the race at all if the player doesn't want to be any class that isn't on your list. DR 10/silver is FAR too strong to give to a race baseline; a barbarian doesn't even get DR 10 from class features and even though silver isn't hard to come across, its not something low-level players are going to have which is where racials tend to make more of a difference. The shifted ability replicates a 5th level class feature at will; far too strong in my opinion and the armor restriction, again, isn't really a restriction. The huge speed buff is too much as well.

    Reverse lycanthrope is a cool idea for a monster, but not really a race. You'll be playing an animal; that's weird and raises too many questions about where your gear goes.

    @Morbridae: Because you don't have any questions or point values listed, I am going to assume you're just showing those creations off. Drow are baseline in Pathfinder so you don't really need to build them (see Bestiary 1). The thing to remember with the Avariel is that 60 foot flight with excellent maneuverability is roughly as strong as a constant 3rd level spell, so that race already is pretty expensive.

    @Morbridae: You have an entire list of races? I'm flattered!

    @gruzjmal: Goblins are definitely very strong because of how many bonuses to Stealth they get. Its a good dissection you've got there, however. I let my players play Goblins if and when they want to, however. They're a race designed to fill a very specific character package, though they branch out rather well.

    @Babnoba: The biggest problem I see with your race is that you made it a plant creature. Plants are incredibly difficult to balance in this system because they get TONS of immunities by merit of their creature type. Namely: immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) and immunity to paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep effects, and stunning effects.

    In short, if you use this system this is not a 6 point race. Being generous, its closer to a 20+ point race.

    @Rasputin: Huh. Are you a Secrets of Pact Magic fan? I actually just updated Rasputin and previewed him on our Pact Magic facebook page yesterday. Funny coincidence. Anyway, no. I do not like that racial at all. First, it allows the character to effectively reduce the cost of increasing your ability scores (why pay the normal price for a +4 when you can play the price for a +2 to Strength or Con and then this ability?). Also, petrified when they lose the blade? The heck? The way its written, you're automatically petrified if you're disarmed. Can the blade be sheathed, or do they always have to wield it? What is the blade's damage? How are they going to regain the life blade while they're petrified? No, this is something for a monster (similar to a kappa becoming stunned if the water in its head bowl is spilled). This is not a weakness you give to a PC; there is no benefit that makes such a crippling penalty worthwhile.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    LordErebus12's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Oldhelwyn Wilds

    Default Re: [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building

    how might this little race of teddy bears stack up to this system of construction?


    Teddy Bears

    Spoiler
    Show

    Spoiler
    Show

    +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, -2 Con, -2 Int: The Stalwart Teddy Bears embody bravery and wisdom, their abilities make them valuable allies when lost or in trouble. However, they are rather slow and are not always the ones with the knowhow, but they make up for it with an unwavering loyalty and toughness.

    Tiny: Teddy Bears are tiny creatures and gain a +2 size bonus to their AC, a +2 size bonus on attack rolls, a -2 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +8 size bonus on Stealth checks.

    Powerful Build: The teddy bear's inner courage and force of charisma lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger. Whenever a teddy is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the teddy is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

    A teddy is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A teddy can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. His space and reach equal that of a small creature. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

    Slow Speed: Teddy Bears have a base speed of 20 feet.

    Childhood's Bond (Su): Whenever the teddy bear is protecting its allies, It grants a deflection bonus to all adjacent allies (but not itself) equal to his Charisma Modifier.

    It’s What We Do: Teddy Bears receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against undead creatures or outsiders with the evil subtype due to special training against these hated foes.

    Fearless Loyalty: Teddy Bears are immune to all fear effects (including intimidation). These Teddy Bears may be tiny in stature, but they’re packed tight with all the courage of a bear. Teddy Bears receive a +2 bonus to will saves to resist mind affecting effects at might make the teddy bear hurt or abandon their allies.

    I Know The Truth: Teddy Bears receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception and Sense Motive skill checks. Teddy Bears are very perceptive, always looking for ways to keep everyone safe.

    Languages: Teddy Bears begin play speaking Common, Teddy Bears with high Intelligence scores can choose from any language available.

    CR/LA +1
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2012-08-21 at 12:51 AM.
    Avatar by Gurgleflep

    Spoiler
    Show
    Belladonis Campaign Setting 3.5
    Casting as a Skill

    Learn from your mistakes, 3.5...
    Fill in those dead levels...

    Abrothia's Vision
    Spoiler
    Show


    Welcome to the World Serpent Inn!
    Spoiler
    Show

    - - - IC - - - OOC - - -


    Extended Signature (90% complete)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •