[3.5] Hide in Plain Sight on the Battlefield

[balistafreak]

So I'm crazy enough to build a character that reads Unarmed Swordsage5/Shadow Sun Ninja1/Warblade1: becoming a stealth expert with the Dark Template, treating that last Warblade level like a bit of swashbuckling experience on the side, taking the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat to heal thyself, and taking grafts from the Maug to improve my unarmed strike, a race of construct mercenaries from the Fiend Folio.

Yup. That's a Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot.

In any case, I have a few questions about Hide in Plain Sight (ex). Presume that the battlefield is not in "natural daylight" or any of the other specific circumstances called out by the ability. When in battle, does hiding take any specific action, or is it a nonaction that takes penalties for moving/attacking like previously described?

My interpretation seems to be that it is a nonaction: that as long as my enemies are failing their Spot checks against my massive Hide modifier (which will admittedly be at -20 for "practically impossible to hide while attacking", but still has a not-negligible chance of success), I'm treated as if I have total concealment, although they'll know where a melee attack came from. Combine with Darkstalker to negate unusual forms of detection.

Also, what cheap ways are there to shroud a small area in shadowy darkness? There's the Dark Lantern from Tome of Magic, but the effect is a bit large (annoying fellow party members) and the item a bit pricier then I'd like. The first is a minor concern, the second is more important. WBL is tight, as always.

My other thought was simply the Child of Shadow Stance and constant movement, but I'm confused as how the wording of "cannot hide in plain sight" works there. It sounds like Child of Shadow is saying it doesn't grant you the ability to hide in plain sight, it just nets you concealment. It says "you still need some other terrain feature that normally allows you to use the Hide skill"... which is something negated by having HiPS in the first place place. However, since Child of Shadow only affects oneself, this only provides at best total concealment, not the "I have no clue where he is at all" that I can get from say a Dark Lantern.

[Zaq]

I'm not sure about any of the questions you directly asked, but if you don't take a Hadozee (Stormwrack) as your race, thereby making yourself a Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot Monkey, I think everyone's going to be a little bit disappointed.

[Defiant]

In any case, I have a few questions about Hide in Plain Sight (ex). Presume that the battlefield is not in "natural daylight" or any of the other specific circumstances called out by the ability. When in battle, does hiding take any specific action, or is it a nonaction that takes penalties for moving/attacking like previously described?

My interpretation seems to be that it is a nonaction: that as long as my enemies are failing their Spot checks against my massive Hide modifier (which will admittedly be at -20 for "practically impossible to hide while attacking", but still has a not-negligible chance of success), I'm treated as if I have total concealment, although they'll know where a melee attack came from. Combine with Darkstalker to negate unusual forms of detection.

Hiding is typically done as part of other actions. You hide as part of movement. You hide as part of attacking. And so on. It doesn't take a specific action because it is done as part of some other action.

If you attempt to hide and your opponent does not beat your Hide check, then for your next attack, you will be denying your opponent's dexterity bonus to AC (unaware opponent). You will not be treated as if you have total concealment, like you've said.

Bear in mind that it's the other way around - you need cover or concealment to make a hide attempt (hide check), or some ability/feature that allows you to obviate the need for it or substitute it in certain circumstances.

[Curmudgeon]

Defiant has steered you in the right direction for the actions that allow a Hide check (moving, running, charging, attacking). The most common way (because there's no added penalty) is with movement. Note that's actual movement, including 5' adjustments, but not "non-moving" move actions like retrieving stored items.

Also, what cheap ways are there to shroud a small area in shadowy darkness?

Get your party Cleric or Favored Soul to cast Deeper Darkness on the tip of your blade every few days. When you draw it from its sheath you'll have shadowy illumination, and you can do so as part of normal movement (which you'll likely want for your Hide check anyway). While this requires a party member with the appropriate spell, it's much less cumbersome than a Dark Lantern.

My other thought was simply the Child of Shadow Stance and constant movement, but I'm confused as how the wording of "cannot hide in plain sight" works there.

Child of Shadow will not provide you with the cover/concealment required for your form of Hide in Plain Sight, so it just flat out will not work to enable you to Hide.

[randomhero00]

its a free action, but as we all know your DM can limit your free actions and generally mess with them. So I'd say its up to the DM.

[Curmudgeon]

its a free action, but as we all know your DM can limit your free actions and generally mess with them.

This is wrong. Hide is never a free action.

Action: Usually none.

Sniping requires a move action to Hide; all other uses are piggy-backed on top of other actions. There are no other possibilities.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Also, if you get blur cast on you somehow, if I remember correctly, you can use the concealment that it grants to hide...

[Defiant]

Also, if you get blur cast on you somehow, if I remember correctly, you can use the concealment that it grants to hide...

Blur can satisfy the cover/concealment requirement of hiding. You'll still need to satisfy the not being observed part, either by having Hide in Plain Sight or by breaking line of sight somehow (if you were being observed in the first place).

[balistafreak]

If you attempt to hide and your opponent does not beat your Hide check, then for your next attack, you will be denying your opponent's dexterity bonus to AC (unaware opponent). You will not be treated as if you have total concealment, like you've said.

I'm not doubting you, but citation please? I don't see anything like that in the Hide skill's description. I was going with the "if he can't see me, I'm basically invisible" rules-as-guessed-by-someone-without-a-clear-idea interpretation.

Bear in mind that it's the other way around - you need cover or concealment to make a hide attempt (hide check), or some ability/feature that allows you to obviate the need for it or substitute it in certain circumstances.

Concealment is coming from shadowy illumination via the awkward Dark Lantern. I'd rather not rely on a dispellable spell from a Cleric - call me Not a Team Player but when crafting characters I prefer to have them not suffer from the Fighter's "require Haste to be cast on me to be effective" syndrome.

But alternatively, getting an item that can cast blur is a neat idea.

[Defiant]

I'm not doubting you, but citation please? I don't see anything like that in the Hide skill's description. I was going with the "if he can't see me, I'm basically invisible" rules-as-guessed-by-someone-without-a-clear-idea interpretation.

That is correct, if he can't see you, you are invisible to your opponent. I failed to include the fact that this would come with an additional +2 to hit.

Nowhere in the hide skill does it mention that you hide when you use the skill, nor does it mention that if you succeed the opposing checks, you are hidden. However, given the complete lack of writing on what the skill actually does (observe how the entry explains only how to make a hide check and use the skill, not what actually happens when you use it successfully), we are forced to take that it means to hide.

Hide

transitive verb
1a : to put out of sight

intransitive verb
1: to remain out of sight

The condition summary lists Invisible as the following:

Invisible

Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any).

If you are hidden from an opponent, you are effectively invisible to the opponent. Not the standard definition of (see-through) "invisible", but the D&D definition of invisible (which is outright defined), which merely posits that you are visually undetectable.

As such, if you successfully hide, you will be denying your opponent's Dex bonus to AC, as well as the oft-forgotten invisibility bonus of a +2 to hit against sighted opponents.

[balistafreak]

And then my thought process about "having total concealment" defensively was that if I'm being treated as invisible, I'll have a 50% miss chance from enemies who guess my square correctly anyways.

[Defiant]

And then my thought process about "having total concealment" defensively was that if I'm being treated as invisible, I'll have a 50% miss chance from enemies who guess my square correctly anyways.

That is correct. My mistake, I have adjusted my above reply. Oddly enough, it seems that if you manage to successfully hide, then this functional invisibility can replace the concealment requirement.

[I'm tired, so I'll just leave it at that]

[Curmudgeon]

I'm not doubting you, but citation please? I don't see anything like that in the Hide skill's description. I was going with the "if he can't see me, I'm basically invisible" rules-as-guessed-by-someone-without-a-clear-idea interpretation.

That's basically right.

Invisible

Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any).

When you Hide you are visually undetectable to those who cannot Spot you, and get the associated benefits. From Merriam-Webster.com:

in·vis·i·ble adj

1
a : incapable by nature of being seen
b : inaccessible to view : hidden

And from Encarta:

in·vis·i·ble
adjective

1. impossible to see: not able to be seen with the eyes

2. hidden: hidden from view

3. made transparent magically: impossible to see as a result of magic or pseudoscientific processes

4. not easily noticed: not readily noticed or detected

Except where terms need game-specific definitions, the D&D rules use the ordinary meanings of words.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Yeah, Core RAW doesn't actually support the "hide, attack, deny your foe his DEX bonus" combo. But Rules Compendium does. Describing the Hide skill under the Movement section (p.92), it incorporates a reasonable but new rule (AFAIK), called Sneak up from Hiding.

Basically, if you have already hidden successfully and then attack, you can make a Hide check. This check suffers a -5 penalty for each 5 ft of movement in "open space". (For a character with HiPS, this would arguably be zero, though it doesn't say so explicitly.) If it succeeds, the target is denied his DEX to AC, because he doesn't notice you in time to prepare.

Excellent little rule, if you ask me, and too bad it isn't in Core for all to see.

[elonin]

Does't hide in plane sight work better for ranged sneak attack? RAW if the concealment for hips doesn't go all the way to the target then conealment is lost and no longer qualifies for sneak attack. And even with hips the -20 to hide still applies.

[Curmudgeon]

Yeah, Core RAW doesn't actually support the "hide, attack, deny your foe his DEX bonus" combo. But Rules Compendium does.
...
Excellent little rule, if you ask me, and too bad it isn't in Core for all to see.

Rules Compendium is just rehashing the rule from Complete Adventurer (pages 101-102), which is a variant of the rule from Song and Silence (page 37). Sneaking up on someone has been part of D&D for a long time.

RAW if the concealment for hips doesn't go all the way to the target then conealment is lost and no longer qualifies for sneak attack.

I'm not sure where you got that idea, but it isn't true.

Concealment

To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment.