Tome of Tactics: A sequel to ToB [PEACH]

[playswithfire]

SOrry about the question before, I was confusing Mercenary and Huntsman.
Also you mention Energy Adaption, what book is it from? I can't find any mention of it on the wizards feat index here.
Did you mean Energy Admixture or Subsitution?

I meant Energy Substitution and have updated Blade Magician accordingly.

[Mayhem]

I really like the huntsman's option to have DR, I think it solves the problem of fitting a barbarian theme perfectly.
Comparing it to the ranger the huntsman's actually pretty balanced, at least until later levels where the ranger will likely PrC out anyway, the huntsman is a bit tougher and sacrifices some tracking abilities and magic in return for martial training. Probably unintentional but it works out nicely.

[jguy]

Question on a maneuver: Healing Palm, level 3 Life's Blood technique, gives you temporary hit points. My question is, how long do they last? You really should put a round or minute limit to it otherwise I could buff myself and the party with gobs of temp hitpoints all day.

[playswithfire]

Question on a maneuver: Healing Palm, level 3 Life's Blood technique, gives you temporary hit points. My question is, how long do they last? You really should put a round or minute limit to it otherwise I could buff myself and the party with gobs of temp hitpoints all day.

Quire right; my oversight. They now expire after a number of rounds equal to either your Int or Wis modifier. Thanks.

Also updated weapon lock to increase the DC for two-handed weapons and larger opponents.

[playswithfire]

Did some more thinking and tweaking.

Changes made based on an earlier version of the tables below:
Removed the 18th level stance from huntsman (brings stance count more in line with everyone else and prevents using 2 eighth level stances at the same time without a feat)
Changed soldier manevuer progression to a more standard 4-13 maneuvers rather than gaining 2 every 5 levels as it had been (makes keeping track of things easier), changed its skills to 4+INT.
Also changed the soldier adaptation so that it learns a power at 1st level in addition to at every even level and its maneuvers/powers ready are increased by 2 (compared to the non-psychic version).
Changed the mercenary so that it swaps maneuvers at odd levels as the huntsman rather than at even levels as most adepts do; makes more sense with its maneuver progression.

The results
Full BAB
{table=head]Class|HD|Skills|Saves|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances
Huntsman |d10|6|Fort,Ref |2-12 |2 - 6 |6
Soldier |d10|4|Fort |4-13 |2 - 8 |5
Crusader |d10|4|Fort |5-14 |5(2)- 7(4)|4
Warblade |d12|4|Fort |3-13 |3 - 7 |4[/table]

Average BAB
{table=head]Class|HD|Skills|Saves|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances
Mercenary |d8 |8|Ref |5-20 |4 -13 |6
Arcane Firebrand|d8 |4|Will |4-23* |4 -11* |5
Firebrand |d8 |4|Fort,Will|4-23 |4 -11 |5
Psychic Soldier |d8 |4|Fort |5-24**|4 -10** |5
Swordsage |d8 |6|Ref,Will |6-25 |4 -12 |6[/table]
* maneuvers or spells
** maneuvers or powers

Feeling pretty good about the average BABs; ok with the full BABs, but I may still mess with skill points to distinguish the d10s. Considering either dropping soldier to 2+INT but giving it something like bardic knack or possibly putting soldier back and 6+INT and dropping huntsman to 2+INT with, obviously, the option to take Street Smarts to be more of a skillmonkey. Not sure; may just leave them alone.


Moving on somewhat from the base classes, any feedback on the variants?

[Mayhem]

A 'bardic knack-like' ability would be pretty interesting, could be discipline based.
All your 3/4 BAB bonus classes have d8, that's kind of boring. Just throwing it out there.

[NineThePuma]

The huntsman and mercenary could probably do with a dropping in HD size by one step.

[Elfstone]

The huntsman and mercenary could probably do with a dropping in HD size by one step.

Once again I disagree.

[NineThePuma]

We've noted your disagreement, and I was merely adding my two cents to the table as well. I'm not going to start an argument with you over it, but please understand that just because someone has a differing opinion doesn't mean that you need to dredge up yours every time that differing opinion is voiced.

The Huntsman feels more like a Ranger analogue than a Barbarian one, and the high skill points help reinforce that. By dropping the hit die by one step you help impress the feeling of being fragile, despite the DR available. If this would 'ruin' the Barbarian adaptation, it could increase the hit die back or offer double the normal DR offered by Survival in the Wild.


The Mercenary has a ridiculous number of skill points, and every skill available to him. On top of that, he's got precision damage, the most maneuvers readied, a respectable amount of maneuvers known, and the maximum number of stances. It has awesome class abilities and is really resilient, with Evasion and Mettle. Getting knocked down a single hit die size won't ruin the class.

[playswithfire]

Brainstorming post; no changes made yet. Thank you all for the feedback.

A 'bardic knack-like' ability would be pretty interesting, could be discipline based.

Yeah; best I've been able to come up with so far is that each discipline you pick gives you bardic knack style 'skill points' for one (cross-class) or two (class) skills related to the discipline skill (would add Ride, drop Use Rope on the class skill list for current thinking) which effectively gives it almost 6 per level, but with restrictions.
Circling Vulture (Sleight of Hand) = Open Lock
Crashing Wave (Swim) = Climb, Ride
Diamond Mind (Concentration) = Martial Lore, Profession(any one)
Giant's Grip (Escape Artist) = Use Rope
Iron Heart (Balance) = Jump, Tumble
Setting Sun (Sense Motive) = Bluff
Could also consider dropping the first level feat and also granting Skill Focus for either two or all of the associated skills of the chosen disciplines.

The huntsman and mercenary could probably do with a dropping in HD size by one step.

The Huntsman feels more like a Ranger analogue than a Barbarian one, and the high skill points help reinforce that. By dropping the hit die by one step you help impress the feeling of being fragile, despite the DR available. If this would 'ruin' the Barbarian adaptation, it could increase the hit die back or offer double the normal DR offered by Survival in the Wild.

Or what if it was a d8, but Survival in the Wild gave you Improved Toughness as well as the DR if you chose not to have an animal companion? A straight huntsman with that option would have, on average, one HP less than a d10 huntsman.
EDIT: Though, in that case, I might have to think about bumping the animal companion to full level instead of half-level since the new non-Animal Companion option would be a feat and a bump and the Animal Companion option gives a worse AC than the Wild Cohort feat.
EDIT2: or it could just be that you gain +1 HP for each huntsman level in the style of Improved Toughness instead of gaining the feat.

All your 3/4 BAB bonus classes have d8, that's kind of boring. Just throwing it out there.

The Mercenary has a ridiculous number of skill points, and every skill available to him. On top of that, he's got precision damage, the most maneuvers readied, a respectable amount of maneuvers known, and the maximum number of stances. It has awesome class abilities and is really resilient, with Evasion and Mettle. Getting knocked down a single hit die size won't ruin the class.

My first thought was to drop the arcane firebrand to d6 (and, on a related note, remove the psychic soldier's heavy armor proficiency) for consistency between the two gish variants (reduce hit die size by 1, lose an armor proficiency) and I'll probably do that.

I could see making the mercenary a d6 (though I'm not too opposed to leaving it a d8 either) since I did so much to compensate for its lower maneuver count compared to swordsage and firebrand because I didn't treat it like the slightly different type of initiator it is.* It also has a nice symmetry of giving INT, which has the highest hit die character in ToB, the lowest hit die in ToT.

*I've started thinking of the three options as poor (adept ends up with 9 or 10 more maneuvers than it starts with e.g. crusader or warblade), full (adept ends up with 19 more maneuvers than it starts with e.g. swordsage or firebrand), and average (adept ends up with 14 or 15 more maneuvers than it started with e.g. mercenary).

[jguy]

I will state now having a d6 HD on a martial, front line fighter character, is a bad idea. Yes, Mercenary has resiliency at late levels with Evasion and Mettle, that is if you don't multiclass out before then. I have good staying power with my Life's Blood Immediate healing but I can only do that once per turn. I have come close to dying a few time by getting ganged up before I could retreat. Good chance that I would have gotten knocked down to negative if I had d6 HD. Mettle seems really good but it is based off Fort and Will, two bad saves for Mercenary and on abilities that one would not focus very much on. Con is tertiary and Will is at best a 12.

Having a lot of skills and access to all doesn't warrant a lower HD. While someone could put points in tumble and intimidate ect, that doesn't lower damage when you get hit with a greataxe from a Barbarian.

[Mayhem]

Putting the huntsman at d8 would make it too similar to the swordsage, the other wisdom based class.

Making the mercenary a d6 would kind of force it into the sniper role, which would make the class less variable and thus more boring( and making the skirmisher line less viable). If you have to change it, then it would be okay for it to have less skill points and if you're concerned with the reduction then grant more skill bonuses as class features to make up for it. You could also make skills( such as gather information, open lock, sense motive) based off of INT, that would be extra skills right there.

For soldier, you could also grant a skill bonus equal to the manuevers and stances of the discipline known. Or it could be a skill bonus based on his current stance, eg in a setting sun stance he might get 2+(1/2 initiator level) to sense motive.

[playswithfire]

Still kicking ideas around. Thanks, everyone, for the feedback and suggestions

I have good staying power with my Life's Blood Immediate healing but I can only do that once per turn.

Shouldn't that be once every two turns, since you can't initiate and refresh in the same round?

Making the mercenary a d6 would kind of force it into the sniper role, which would make the class less variable and thus more boring( and making the skirmisher line less viable.

I will state now having a d6 HD on a martial, front line fighter character, is a bad idea. Yes, Mercenary has resiliency at late levels with Evasion and Mettle, that is if you don't multiclass out before then.
I have come close to dying a few time by getting ganged up before I could retreat. Good chance that I would have gotten knocked down to negative if I had d6 HD. Mettle seems really good but it is based off Fort and Will, two bad saves for Mercenary and on abilities that one would not focus very much on. Con is tertiary and Will is at best a 12.

Yeah, seems like d6 isn't going to work for anything except the arcane firebrand. Firebrand already hangs back and manages/boosts and the arcane would would be even more so.

Mettle does also seem to be a bit of a waste on the mercenary. Toying with the idea of going in the other direction with the mercenary, trying to wedge it into this "average" initiator slot. Drop mettle and Weapon Savvy, lose a d6 and 'professional' from tactics, shuffle things around a bit; cut maneuvers readied to a 3-9 and drop a stance; make it a d10 with 6+INT skill points. Thus making the mercenary roughly as tough as the soldier but relying on guile rather than strength. Thoughts? Is this just a ridiculous idea?

Putting the huntsman at d8 would make it too similar to the swordsage, the other wisdom based class.

In that they'd both be d8 with 6+int skill points? Other than that, they're fairly different, I think, other than both being fluffed as being clever. Other than that fluff, the huntsman (not quite as intended) is a Wisdom-based class the same way a crusader is a charisma based class: one good class feature based on that stat.

If I implement all the changes I'm considering (huntsman goes to d8 with non-Animal Companion choice also granting HP, revamping mercenary, arcane firebrand drops to d6, soldier becomes 2+INT with 'knack,' probably called 'basic training'), then the table of ToB and ToT classes looks like this:
{table=head]Class |BAB |HD |Skills|Saves |Known |Readied |Stances
Warblade |Full|d12|4 |Fort |3-13 |3 - 7 |4
Crusader |Full|d10|4 |Fort |5-14 |5(2)- 7(4)|4
Soldier |Full|d10|2+ |Fort |4-13 |2 - 8 |5
Huntsman |Full|d8^|6 |Fort,Ref |2-12 |2 - 6 |6
Mercenary |3/4 |d10|6 |Ref |5-20 |3 - 9 |5
Swordsage |3/4 |d8 |6 |Ref,Will |6-25 |4 -12 |6
Firebrand |3/4 |d8 |4 |Fort,Will|4-23 |4 -11 |5
Psychic Soldier |3/4 |d8 |2+ |Fort |5-24**|4 -10* |5
Arcane Firebrand|3/4 |d6 |4 |Will |4-23* |4 -11** |5[/table]
which provides a d8-d12 hit die range for full BAB, a d6-d10 hit die range for 3/4 BAB, a skill range of 2-6 for d8s and a skill range of 2-6 for d10s

+ with bardic knack type 'skill points'
^ can effectively be a d10 by dropping animal companion
* maneuvers or powers
** maneuvers or spells

For soldier, you could also grant a skill bonus equal to the manuevers and stances of the discipline known. Or it could be a skill bonus based on his current stance, eg in a setting sun stance he might get 2+(1/2 initiator level) to sense motive.

That would make him excel at certain skills; I was thinking more along the lines of it being a way to dabble in a bunch of skills.

My version, which could either replace or join the first level feat, depending on how good it ends up being, would currently read something like this (still a work in progress/crazy idea):
Basic Training (Ex): All soldiers go through a period of training to learn the skills they need to survive in battle and these lessons are so ingrained that, hen making a skill check involving the skills granted by his chosen disciplines, a soldier can use 1/2 his soldier level (rounded up) in place of the number of ranks he has in that skill, if that would be higher.
You can’t take 10 on checks when using this ability and, if the skill doesn't allow untrained checks, you must have at least 1 actual rank to attempt the check. The skills associated with each discipline are as follows:
Circling Vulture - Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand
Crashing Wave - Climb, Ride, Swim
Diamond Mind - Autohypnosis, Concentration, Knowledge(any one)
Giant's Grip - Craft(any one), Escape Artist, Survival
Iron Heart - Balance, Jump, Tumble
Setting Sun - Listen, Sense Motive, Spot

[Elfstone]

Still kicking ideas around. Thanks, everyone, for the feedback and suggestions

Shouldn't that be once every two turns, since you can't initiate and refresh in the same round?

I think he meant the fact that there were multiple healing manouvers.
Also, To briefly describe my huntsman PC.
CT here
And sheet here

I used another class as a 5 level gestalt with my first 5 levels of huntsman before I singe classed (how the game was set up, 5 free gestalt levels) in huntsman. Those levels never truly came into play at all. I took a giant warbeast Dire Eagle for my animal companion and rode around on him, while focusing on aerial attacks.(Array of the manticore from MIC) with a sword bow and luckblade so I could effectively play both sides of the ranger idiom.

When I went into combat I took a few hits but nothing major, however if I had failed a few saves and had a d8 instead of a d10 I most certainly would not have bade it through the battle.

[jguy]

I was healing by using a heal on an opponents turn as an immediate, recovering on my turn and attacking, then when I got attacked, use my immediate to heal again. I think this work, do tell if I am wrong.

I like mercenary where it is skill wise and HD wise. D8 encourages melee but makes the person focused on preventing or immediately healing hits then just taking it on the chest if they had D10 or D12 HD. The skills are wonderful, mostly because I don't play character with access to so many like factotum and such. I honestly think you should keep the "All Skills" portion, but if you want to knock it down to a 6 per level, that seems fair. I've always pictured Mercenary more akin to a Martial adept Factotum then related to swordsage. While a factotum can modify rolls and gets spells, mercenary shores up needed areas with maneuvers and what tactics it takes.

Instead of Mettle, why not have something more akin to Paladins with Divine Favor. Getting your Int to saves encourages more Int focus stat wise and having it at 9th level means you have to stick it out and not just dip into Merc for the save bonus. Thematic wise, Int to Fort could mean that the Merc has been eating small doses of certain poisons to build up resistances, or researching diseases and ailments to better prepare himself against it. Int to reflex is just 'Think Fast!' with the brain moving faster then the body. Int to Will is simply thinking through a mental attack.

[NineThePuma]

Instead of Mettle, why not have something more akin to Paladins with Divine Favor. Getting your Int to saves encourages more Int focus stat wise and having it at 9th level means you have to stick it out and not just dip into Merc for the save bonus. Thematic wise, Int to Fort could mean that the Merc has been eating small doses of certain poisons to build up resistances, or researching diseases and ailments to better prepare himself against it. Int to reflex is just 'Think Fast!' with the brain moving faster then the body. Int to Will is simply thinking through a mental attack.

What about, instead of Mettle, you get Inspiration Points that can be used to add your Int mod to any given save! Thematic wise, this particular thing is something you're prepared for and planned ahead to.

[playswithfire]

I was healing by using a heal on an opponents turn as an immediate, recovering on my turn and attacking, then when I got attacked, use my immediate to heal again. I think this work, do tell if I am wrong.

Since the current wording of the recovery mechanic only says that you can't initiate in the same round you recover and not that you can't recover in the same round you initiate, as long as the enemy doing the damage has higher initiative than you, it does technically work. Each round you initiate, then recover. I may need to reword it, or maybe not, since counters are the only "loophole" to what I intended, that being that, regardless of order, you can't initiate and recover in the same round.

I like mercenary where it is skill wise and HD wise. D8 encourages melee but makes the person focused on preventing or immediately healing hits then just taking it on the chest if they had D10 or D12 HD. The skills are wonderful, mostly because I don't play character with access to so many like factotum and such. I honestly think you should keep the "All Skills" portion, but if you want to knock it down to a 6 per level, that seems fair.

I'd only knock it to 6 per level if I upped the hit dice and took off some class features.

I've always pictured Mercenary more akin to a Martial adept Factotum then related to swordsage. While a factotum can modify rolls and gets spells, mercenary shores up needed areas with maneuvers and what tactics it takes.

Yeah, it was meant to be the martial rogue/scout, but it does seem to have become the martial factotum.

Instead of Mettle, why not have something more akin to Paladins with Divine Favor. Getting your Int to saves encourages more Int focus stat wise and having it at 9th level means you have to stick it out and not just dip into Merc for the save bonus.

What about, instead of Mettle, you get Inspiration Points that can be used to add your Int mod to any given save! Thematic wise, this particular thing is something you're prepared for and planned ahead to.

While inspiration points would be thematic, I'd rather not, if only to limit the number of other sources required to understand the contents of ToT (so far, I think it's just ToB and Complete Adventurer and Warrior). Giving INT to saves was the other thing I considered, though possibly just to Fort and Will so as to avoid having to deal with interactions with warblade's battle clarity.

So I think mercenary stays as it is (d8, 8+INT), but mettle gets replaced with uncapped (neither by level nor initiator level) INT to Fort and Will saves.

[playswithfire]

Latest round of updates, hopefully homing in on what will be the final versions

Firebrand
arcane variant has d6 hit dice and one less maneuver readied
Huntsman
dropped to a d8 and reinstated 18th level stance
variant gains d10 hit dice, but also loses Survival in the Wild
Mercenary
replaced mettle with int to saves (Forewarned is Forearmed)
Soldier
added Listen, Ride, and Survival to class skills
cut skills to 2+INT, but added Basic Training
variant loses heavy armor proficiency and only gains one extra readied instead of 2

Also tweaked a few numbers in the soulsword and cavalryman variants, so I've added them to the table.

{table=head]Class|BAB|HD|Skills|Saves|Known|Readied|Stances
Warblade |Full|d12|4 |Fort |3-13 |3 - 7 |4
Raging Huntsman |Full|d10|6 |Fort,Ref |2-12 |2 - 6 |7
Crusader |Full|d10|4 |Fort |5-14 |5(2)- 7(4)|4
Cavalryman |Full|d10|4 |Fort |4-13 |4(1)- 6(3)|4
Soldier |Full|d10|2+ |Fort |4-13 |2 - 8 |5
Mercenary |3/4 |d8 |8 |Ref |5-20 |4-13 |6
Huntsman |Full|d8 |6 |Fort,Ref |2-12 |2 - 6 |7
Swordsage |3/4 |d8 |6 |Ref,Will |6-25 |4-12 |6
Soulsword |3/4 |d8 |6 |Ref,Will |4-23 |3-11 |6
Firebrand |3/4 |d8 |4 |Fort,Will|4-23 |4-11 |5
Psychic Soldier |3/4 |d8 |2+ |Fort |5-24* |3- 9* |5
Arcane Firebrand|3/4 |d6 |4 |Will |4-23**|3-10** |5[/table]

[Hazzardevil]

Plays, in my opinoin I think knocking skill points down to 2+ is too drastic, you probably know this but part of the problm for the fighter is they are a one-trick pony, all they do is take part in fights and start them. They can't do anything outside a fight, so I think 4+ skill points is enough.

[playswithfire]

Plays, in my opinoin I think knocking skill points down to 2+ is too drastic, you probably know this but part of the problm for the fighter is they are a one-trick pony, all they do is take part in fights and start them. They can't do anything outside a fight, so I think 4+ skill points is enough.

I agree that the fighter does have that limitation and that the soldier will similarly shine only in combat or, perhaps, on sentry duty. With its skill list, though, the soldier is mainly suited for those tasks even with 4+int. The soldier was sort of intended to be a grunt, now that there's a general (warblade), charismatic knight (crusader), spy/infiltrator (mercenary), and survivalist (huntsman); it seemed ok to have one ToB class devoted solely to combat.
Thanks for all your feedback; I'll keep it in mind as I try it out with 2+Int (with basic training effectively giving him 6/level with the skill points spread across 10-12 skills) and, if it seems too limited, I can up it to 4 again.

[playswithfire]

New legacy weapon added to the weapons thread and linked in first post; next up, either Tidebreaker or Fury.

Things I've realized from building ToT-using NPCs for a game:
Master's Voice needs another maneuver at 3rd and 5th level; in both cases, there are two stances, but only one maneuver.
Geyser force (Crashing Wave level 3) feels like it might need something more, probably a chance to end up prone after falling.
I need to clarify, both in my own mind and in its text, what happens when a soulsword selects Iron Rain for Discipline Focus(Shape mind blade) and forms it into a bow; does it create the bow and he needs arrows as normal, does it create both, or does it let him create mind arrows that can be fired from a normal bow? First one is the simplest mechanically and probably makes the most sense.

[Redshirt Army]

Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, a mercenary chooses a preferred style of combat, essentially a choice between sneak attack damage and skirmish damage and gains d6 of the chosen damage type. This damage increase by d6 at 7th level and every fourth level thereafter. This choice also affects other class features.
skilled: At 3rd level, a mercenary who chose sneak attack damage adds his Intelligence modifier to his Bluff checks and one who chose skirmish damage adds it to his Move Silently checks.
professional: At 7th level, a mercenary who chose sneak attack also adds his Integlligence modifier to his Hide checks and can take 10 on both Bluff and Hide checks even if threatened or distracted and one who chose skirmish leaves no trail in natural surroundings and thus cannot be tracked and his base land speed is increased by 10 ft.
expert: At 15th level, a mercenary who chose sneak attack can hide in plain sight (as the ranger ability, except that the mercenary need not be in natural terrain) and one who chose skirmish damage can move a number of feet equal to his Intelligence score, rounded down to the nearest 5 ft whenever he would normally take a 5 ft step.

I don't particularly like the phrasing here, so here's my rewrite:

Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, a mercenary must choose one of two preferred styles of combat: stealth or speed. If he chose stealth, he gains 1d6 sneak attack damage, and if he chose speed, he gains 1d6 skirmish damage. This damage increases by 1d6 at 7th level and every fourth level thereafter (ignoring normal skirmish progression). This choice also affects other class features.
Skilled: At 3rd level, a mercenary who chose stealth adds his Intelligence modifier to his Bluff checks, and one who chose speed adds his Intelligence modifier to his Move Silently checks.
Professional: At 7th level, a mercenary who chose stealth also adds his Intelligence modifier to his Hide checks and can take 10 on both Bluff and Hide checks even if threatened or distracted, and one who chose speed gains Trackless Step (as the Druid ability) and his base land speed is increased by 10 ft.
Expert: At 15th level, a mercenary who chose stealth can Hide in Plain Sight (as the Ranger ability, except that the mercenary need not be in natural terrain) and one who chose speed can, whenever he would normally take a 5 ft step, instead move a number of feet equal to his Intelligence score, rounded down to the nearest 5 ft.

I assumed it was intentional that it progressed skirmish without adding the bonuses to AC the scout normally gets.

[playswithfire]

I don't particularly like the phrasing here, so here's my rewrite:

...better wording than mine...

I assumed it was intentional that it progressed skirmish without adding the bonuses to AC the scout normally gets.

Thanks for the rewrite; yours is definitely clearer and I've updated the Mercenary post with it. I think mine was a rewrite from the even more awkwardly-worded version in which you could gain a d6 of skirmish or sneak attack (either one) at each of those levels).

Yeah, I meant for it to just progress to 4d6 skirmish. I know it's nonstandard, but it was easier that way to just have both progressions be 4d6.

[playswithfire]

Added new Alternate Class Features for
Barbarian: reduce HD and no damage reduction for some maneuvers based on totem
- also new totems to have one for each ToB and ToT discipline, so these are also available for warblades thanks to warblade academies
Druid: gains maneuvers (almost) as swordsage instead of spells
Wilder: Loses volatile mind for some Diamond Mind maneuvers

Other changes
Clarified the situation where a soulsword creates a mind bow
Crashing Wave: Added chance to knock prone to Geyser Force
Master's Voice: Added 3rd (Fire Eater) and 5th (Frightful Beating) level maneuvers. Realized I probably need to revise lead by fear. Frightful presence may be too weak for an 8th level stance, but I'm not sure what to do with it yet.
Wandering Eye: Renamed and tweaked Back and Forth (now Bob and Weave)

[Hazzardevil]

What happens when a soulsword selects Iron Rain for Discipline Focus(Shape mind blade) and forms it into a bow; does it create the bow and he needs arrows as normal, does it create both, or does it let him create mind arrows that can be fired from a normal bow? First one is the simplest mechanically and probably makes the most sense.

I think you should allow the Soulsword to manifest a Bow and Arrows as an equivalant level soulknife, but DO allow you to use real arrows and bows too.

[playswithfire]

I think you should allow the Soulsword to manifest a Bow and Arrows as an equivalant level soulknife, but DO allow you to use real arrows and bows too.

If he can create the arrows, too:
1. that sort of makes soulbow irrelevant and
2. What's the action to create an arrow? Normally, a soulknife/soulsword needs a move action to manifest the weapon which won't work if he needs to spend a move action for each arrow.

I've added a section that says he still needs to find arrows.
I think I will revise the Mind of Iron feat to add Autohypnosis to class skills, though, so a soulsword can become a soulbow more easily if he wants to dip into that class to create arrows to go with his mind bow.

[playswithfire]

Felt like I was giving Warblade a lot of options and the other two original adept classes not that many, so I've added new ACFs for the Crusader, mostly centered around alignment.
Thinking what to do for swordsage; probably a divine gish of some sort, maybe cleric list but bard levels and can swap the first level stance for the ability of one domain?

I've also realized that the Sublime Shapeshifter ACF for druids sort of makes Force of Nature useless, so I might drop it for a Life's Blood/Devoted Spirit/something gish (divine and/or psionic) class that can both fight and heal effectively.

[Hazzardevil]

I reccomend you give the swordsage an weapon crafting focused ability, I don't know why but it just seems to fit.
I just like the idea of the Cloistered Blacksmith who lives far away in the mountains creating swords.

But, this is a very big but.
Do you do Warheart or Magic weapons?

[playswithfire]

I reccomend you give the swordsage an weapon crafting focused ability, I don't know why but it just seems to fit.
I just like the idea of the Cloistered Blacksmith who lives far away in the mountains creating swords.

But, this is a very big but.
Do you do Warheart or Magic weapons?

I like that idea, too. I think I'll still do a divine gish version, since I've already got an arcane gish, a psionic gish, and a soulknife-type, but a crafting swordsage sounds like an excellent option. I haven't used warheart items, but they sound very interesting.

[Hazzardevil]

I like that idea, too. I think I'll still do a divine gish version, since I've already got an arcane gish, a psionic gish, and a soulknife-type, but a crafting swordsage sounds like an excellent option. I haven't used warheart items, but they sound very interesting.

For divine Gish are you just doing arcane swordsage with the cleric spell list?

Heres an explanation for Warheart items.

You can only make weapons, shields and armour.
You need the warheart version of the appropriate feats and know maneuvers.
You then make an item that costs as much as its equivalant, IE: to make a +5 warheart item it costs the same as a normal +5 item.
Except the only thing to spend the bonuses on are maneuvers that you can use 1/encounter. I think you can have multiple maneuvers on the same item.

Also, you can only have strikes on weapons, counters on shield and boost on armour. ( I might have armour and shield the wrong way round.)

For example, a +10 warheart item, (This it just the number of bonuses, you can't have enhancement bonuses on warjeart itmes) Could have Time stands still (a level 9 maneuver) and steel wind. (a 1st levl maneuver)