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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    So, I had a very interesting debate on the nature of the Yozi. Specifically, how limited are they by their nature. This matters, as I mentioned how (myself included) many feel some sympathy for the Yozi, but also that the Ebon Dragon often doesn't get this sympathy. The other began to question the difference that makes the others worthy of sympathy/pity, and not him, and in the end I was unable to really give a good answer. So, anyone else have a good one?
    As Golentan pointed out, if something is a threat, I'm going to deal with it accordingly because, as a human being, that's all I can do.

    But, it seems like he's lumping "hate" in there, too. I'm not. If a starving wolf attacks my grandma, I would not hesitate to end its life, because it's a threat; not because I hate it. It's nature is to fight and eat and kill, and it can do nothing else; how could I begrudge it for that? That's like hating the wind for blowing, or the grass for growing, or the sea for flowing (I swear to god I didn't mean for that to rhyme).

    In a way, a Primordial is even more restricted than that wolf. A wolf has a limited capacity to learn, and can be convinced (probably via slabs of meat) to not attack a grandma because you're giving them a better option. A grandma-killing Primordial can not be. There's nothing you can do; even if it's within their best interest not to; a grandma-killing Primordial is going to kill grandmas because the idea of doing so is what they are.

    So, why hate the Ebon Dragon? First, I'd like to point out that every Yozi "is a threat". I don't really "hate" any other Yozi, but I would certainly agree to the elimination of any of the ones that we've seen, because they're a direct threat to me and my loved ones.

    Lets look at Malfeas. Why is he a threat? Well, he'll light you on fire if you don't do exactly what he says all the time unquestioningly and subserviently. But that's because he doesn't even realize you're a person. He's so big and powerful that, to him, you're basically an ant. Have you ever stepped on an ant before? Did you ever stop to mourn them? And why shouldn't he think that? He's a world, and a concept, and a horde of demons; if anything, we're comparing the bacteria that you squish as you walk around in your daily life. Do you care about their lives too? It's only a matter of degree; they're small, and you're big. They're simple, and you're complex. We're all alive, but they're so simple and tiny, why do the bacteria matter? And now you know what Malfeas is thinking when he shifts a city block and murders 10,000 people without even noticing.

    Adorjan is different. She's a bit more personal; she might be able to see you as a person. The problem is that she doesn't understand why you're so wrapping up in this "being alive thing".

    I posted this quote before when talking about Adorjan, but here it is again:
    You know where the sanctity of life came from? We made it up. You know why? 'Cuz we're alive. Self-interest. Living people have a strong interest in promoting the idea that somehow life is sacred. Only living people care about it so the whole thing grows out of a completely biased point of view. It's a self serving, man-made ******** story.
    Adorjan is wind. Wind that happens to kill people as it passes through. How do you expect her to value life the same way a living human being does? How is she going to land on the exact arbitrary designation the rest of us have decided life is worth? When it says "she kills you because she loves you", that's not some macabre crap; it's quite literal. She values life in a different way than you do, and she can do nothing else.

    I could go on and on about each Yozi, but lets get to the Ebon Dragon, because this post is getting long and I'm hungry. The Ebon Dragon is different. He thinks in very human terms. He doesn't kill you because he doesn't know better, he kills you because he wants to act like an *******. He comprehends life and death on the same plane as humans do. Murder is evil to us, and it's evil to him, but he does it anyway. He completely understands Virtue in the way humans understand it (he doesn't have something like Swilly's Cosmic Transcendence of [Virtue]), he's just a psychopathic serial-everything-bad-ist.

    This is where I draw the line. Can he change himself? No. So part of me wants to pity him. But, to me, that's where I draw my arbitrary line of hate. In his own mind, he is evil, and he's overjoyed with that.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    So, I did mention I'm reading GWM, which is really cool but a damn lot of stuff. Anyone who is up to date on the Fae can tell me how you go about actually forging Oaths and Oneiromancies and such other Grace arti-magics? I seem to be missing something. Or is it just a matter of normal Craft (perhaps with Glamour)?
    Creating Grace magic happens in one of five ways:

    A) Making new 1- or 2- dot artifacts

    Find a commoner (for 1-dot stuff) or noble (for 2-dot stuff) and acquire the relevant Grace (Staff if you want to make an Oath, etc.)
    Use the Great Works of the X (Staff for an Oath...) charm on the grace. This takes a few seasons, typically, and requires commited motes all the way.
    Done!
    Post errata, remember to put your commoner in Elsewhere storage, as your artifact will be destroyed if the commoner dies.
    Nobles are harder to toss into Elsewhere indefinitely, but are also a weak point in your artifact (barring GM kindness / Heart 4 nobles).

    B) Making new 3- dot artifacts

    Go on a quest to pester the Unshaped, and succeed using shaping conflict of the proper type (Cup for Oneiromancy). This gives you a 'proto artifact'
    Use Great Works of the X on the Unshaped's gift. This takes many seasons.
    Done!

    C) Making new 4- or 5- dot artifacts

    Own an artifact of the proper type which is 1 dot less than your target
    Go on a quest to pester the Unshaped. If you succeed, they'll empower your artifact.
    Use Great Works of the X. This takes almost forever.
    Done!

    D) Converting existing artifacts

    Own an artifact of the proper type which has as many dots as the one you want.
    Use the Unshaped Grace Transformation Charm (suited to the artifact type). This takes fewer seasons than making a new artifact.
    You now have the artifact you wanted (and lost the old one)
    Done!

    E) Cheating

    Create a noble Fair Folk via Ecstatic Reproduction Style. They have bonus points, which can be spent on artifacts.
    Meddle with Unshaped charms to get someone else to become an Unshaped, then revert to noble Fair Folk status. They get bonus points to spend on artifacts.
    Use Behemoth Forging Meditation to turn mortals into 1-dot behemoth equivalents (with a lower commitment cost, more mutations but fewer options for mutations).

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Hey, I've heard/seen several mentions of the fact that one balance point for melee is that you have to draw a weapon, so if you're unarmed/haven't drawn it, you can't use melee charms(because you can't use a charm from one ability with a roll for another unless specifically allowed). But in the core book, above the Martial Arts section, it says that you can use the higher of your martial arts or melee abilities with the following weapons, and lists unarmed strikes(of all kinds) in that section. Is that a goof? Or am I missing something?
    He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
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  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Hey, I've heard/seen several mentions of the fact that one balance point for melee is that you have to draw a weapon, so if you're unarmed/haven't drawn it, you can't use melee charms(because you can't use a charm from one ability with a roll for another unless specifically allowed). But in the core book, above the Martial Arts section, it says that you can use the higher of your martial arts or melee abilities with the following weapons, and lists unarmed strikes(of all kinds) in that section. Is that a goof? Or am I missing something?
    Unarmed strikes have the N tag, which means they must be used with martial arts. The same goes for several clinch weapons, which have the C tag. The M tag allows you to use weapons with either ability, which most martial arts weapons have, including smashfists.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Here now. I don't lump "hate" in with "danger." I see though that I combined bits of my argument in a confusing way. Bear in mind, I've got a crush on SWLiHN, and want to give malfeas and half a dozen other yozis a big hug. Doesn't mean I would ever consider letting them out, but I like them while recognizing their danger. I sympathize.

    But I sympathize because their nature is sympathetic to me. Because I (having understood their nature as best as available observation allows) feel I understand the reasons they are what they are, and feel that they lash out in pain and fear (or curiosity in some cases) more than malice. I still want to get them away so they don't kill grandma, but I just want them away rather than hating them.

    The ebon dragon, though, is something I hate intrinsically. He is malice and cruelty, no other justification required or given. The fact that he can't change just means that as long as I don't change I will continue to hate him ad infinitum rather than saying "oh, but he can't change so it isn't his fault."
    My motto: Repensum Est Canicula.

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
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  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    The ebon dragon, though, is something I hate intrinsically. He is malice and cruelty, no other justification required or given. The fact that he can't change just means that as long as I don't change I will continue to hate him ad infinitum rather than saying "oh, but he can't change so it isn't his fault."
    Oddly, I find him the most forgivable of the Yozis. Yes, he is evil incarnate and must be checked at every turn and never allowed free ever again, but in him is embodied one of the best traits: free will. The Ebon Dragon embodies freedom within his dark and spiteful majesty and because of him humanity has a chance to be whatever it can be. Every scrap of dignity, everything virtuous and noble, owes its existance to the Ebon Dragon.

    And, in a way, that makes the Ebon Dragon even more evil. Of all the Yozis, he has the most power to choose differently. He doesn't always have to lie or cheat or steal or backstab. It's what makes him dangerous. You could be getting exactly what you bargained for when dealing with the Ebon Dragon but then again the Shadow of All Things might decide that this one is the time he's gonna screw you over you feel like you've been violated in orifices you never knew you had. You can never know which it will be and so he can always hold out another temptation and you'll always find yourself wondering "maybe this time it won't happen?"

    And something about that makes the Ebon Dragon the most human. He acts not just out of an inability to concieve of others having a choice or an opinion worth mattering, but because he knows you have hopes and dreams and fears. He's evil because he likes it. He revels in your pain because that's just how he gets his kicks. He is that part of ourselves that coined the words "schadenfruede" and "sadism", that part that we don't like to acknowledge that we have and try to sweep under the rug and lock in the closet.

    Perhaps that's why his punishment is greater than that of any other Yozi. Sure, some of them lost their fetich souls and were changed into things other than what they were, but the Ebon Dragon is shackled to his greatest fear. He's the definition of claustrophobic. It rises from that core of free will that gives him his greatest strength. The Ebon Dragon cannot abide being shackled or imprisoned, yet he finds himself shackled with oaths and imprisoned within Malfeas. The only thing he fears more is death and it was only the threat of death that got him to agree to the surrender oaths. For millenia, he has not known a moment of peace. His torment is endless and I can only say that it serves him right.

    To say that I find him the most forgivable is really to say that he is the only one of the Yozis who needs forgiveness, for he is the only one of the Yozis who can sin. And he would not have it any other way.

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    Because of his whole "freedom" schtick, I think any Ebon Dragon Charm that exerts any sort of Compulsion is completely retarded. The Shadow of All Things doesn't force people to become monsters, they make themselves monsters. He's just a facilitator in bringing out your own inner darkness, using your own lusts to tempt you to step just a bit farther into the night, just another step, until you find you can no longer see the light of day. When you find yourself damned, you can not say that it was any hand but your own that signed over your soul to the devil.
    Last edited by Kyeudo; 2011-01-24 at 09:39 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
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    Because of his whole "freedom" schtick, I think any Ebon Dragon Charm that exerts any sort of Compulsion is completely retarded. The Shadow of All Things doesn't force people to become monsters, they make themselves monsters. He's just a facilitator in bringing out your own inner darkness, using your own lusts to tempt you to step just a bit farther into the night, just another step, until you find you can no longer see the light of day. When you find yourself damned, you can not say that it was any hand but your own that signed over your soul to the devil.
    *snicker* You think the Ebon Dragon cares about everyone else's freedom? That's silly. Sure, it is likely more satisfying for him to facilitate someone's downfall rather than force someone into it, but when it comes to getting the job done, sometimes you just have to use some sort of mass Inner Devils Unchained charm and make them do messed up stuff (murder, cannibalism, etc). Then, after that's over, change them back, let them realize all the horror they've wrought, and wallow in self-pity... then use Golden Years Tarnished Black expansions to make them enjoy what they did, and make them want even more.

    Hell, you could even do some weird thing with Inner Devils Unchained that imprisons them within their new demon body while the darker nature takes over, and force them to experience every single second of the basest desire, and be able to do absolutely nothing about it. Then use Everything Gets Worse to make what they did seem even worse... Then make them enjoy it again.

    Ebbie cares for no ones else's freedom other than his own.
    Last edited by Primal Fury; 2011-01-24 at 11:36 PM.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Fury View Post
    *snicker* You think the Ebon Dragon cares about everyone else's freedom? That's silly. Sure, it is likely more satisfying for him to facilitate someone's downfall rather than force someone into it, but when it comes to getting the job done, sometimes you just have to use some sort of mass Inner Devils Unchained charm and make them do messed up stuff (murder, cannibalism, etc).
    Might want to go re-read Inner Devils Unchained. While it does make you into a demon, it enforces no behavior on you. The Charm in fact specifically says that it does not allow the Infernal to control the target in any way. The Charm makes you a demon on the outside. Whether you are a demon on the inside is your choice.

    Then, after that's over, change them back, let them realize all the horror they've wrought, and wallow in self-pity... then use Golden Years Tarnished Black expansions to make them enjoy what they did, and make them want even more.

    Hell, you could even do some weird thing with Inner Devils Unchained that imprisons them within their new demon body while the darker nature takes over, and force them to experience every single second of the basest desire, and be able to do absolutely nothing about it. Then use Everything Gets Worse to make what they did seem even worse... Then make them enjoy it again.
    Note that everything you use there to play mind games on people was released by the Ink Monkeys, not in the MoEP: Infernals proper. I tend to disagree with the direction the Ink Monkeys are taking every Exalted Charm set they've touched. Yes, I realize Goodwin is an Ink Monkey and has worked on every Charm set I have ever considered to be amazing. The paradox boggles my mind too.

    Ebbie cares for no ones else's freedom other than his own.
    Really now? You mean the Ebon Dragon didn't fight SWLIHN to keep the Green Sun Princes largely free of supernatural shackles? You mean he wasn't the one who wrote free will into the pattern of every god and mortal despite SWLIHN's insistance?

    The Ebon Dragon values free will, because otherwise how can betrayal happen? Does slavery rankle if you have never tasted freedom? How can you be degraded if you could not choose to be better? How can you hate if you can not instead choose to love? The Ebon Dragon would see you in chains made from your own choices, forced by your own hand to destroy everything you hold dear, and laugh as you throw away all your supposed virtues just to fufill your own lusts, but to do it he needs you to have the agency to have stepped from his black path, because otherwise your damnation holds no pain, no torment at the end of your days when you remember the love you murdered and the nation you betrayed. His motives are far from pure, but the Ebon Dragon values free will and will do much to see it continue to exist.

    Tell me, honestly, which sounds more like the Ebon Dragon: "I made that man kill his lover." or "That man killed his lover because I led him to believe she was unfaithful."

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    Might want to go re-read Inner Devils Unchained. While it does make you into a demon, it enforces no behavior on you. The Charm in fact specifically says that it does not allow the Infernal to control the target in any way. The Charm makes you a demon on the outside. Whether you are a demon on the inside is your choice.
    Nonsense. Some of us can't choose to be a demon on the inside. Some of us have safety measures built in so that we are incapable of violating a preprogrammed code without the proper passcode and resonance key.

    Some of us also find free will chafes something awful on our psyche when that resonance key gets taken away. Some of us wonder if any of it was worth the pain when that happened.

    Though I do wish to point out that using inner devils unchained to spawn mutant superheroes is an awesome use of one's time.
    My motto: Repensum Est Canicula.

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
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  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    Might want to go re-read Inner Devils Unchained. While it does make you into a demon, it enforces no behavior on you. The Charm in fact specifically says that it does not allow the Infernal to control the target in any way. The Charm makes you a demon on the outside. Whether you are a demon on the inside is your choice.
    Easy. Pull an FFC or whatever they were called and TELL the victim they'll have no control. (smirk)

    Really now? You mean the Ebon Dragon didn't fight SWLIHN to keep the Green Sun Princes largely free of supernatural shackles? You mean he wasn't the one who wrote free will into the pattern of every god and mortal despite SWLIHN's insistance?

    The Ebon Dragon values free will, because otherwise how can betrayal happen? Does slavery rankle if you have never tasted freedom? How can you be degraded if you could not choose to be better? How can you hate if you can not instead choose to love? The Ebon Dragon would see you in chains made from your own choices, forced by your own hand to destroy everything you hold dear, and laugh as you throw away all your supposed virtues just to fufill your own lusts, but to do it he needs you to have the agency to have stepped from his black path, because otherwise your damnation holds no pain, no torment at the end of your days when you remember the love you murdered and the nation you betrayed. His motives are far from pure, but the Ebon Dragon values free will and will do much to see it continue to exist.

    Tell me, honestly, which sounds more like the Ebon Dragon: "I made that man kill his lover." or "That man killed his lover because I led him to believe she was unfaithful."
    Sure he wants free will, but only so he can screw people over more. The ED seems to me to be an embodiment of selfishness as much as betrayal-he wants his own pleasure, and if someone else is made happy/free on the way, that's a shame, and he'll try to rectify it later.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    Might want to go re-read Inner Devils Unchained. While it does make you into a demon, it enforces no behavior on you. The Charm in fact specifically says that it does not allow the Infernal to control the target in any way. The Charm makes you a demon on the outside. Whether you are a demon on the inside is your choice.
    Oh dear. My mistake. I was under the impression that IDU forced the behavioral aspects upon them as well. I figured you'd still love your wife, but as a blood ape, you'd express said love by ripping her legs off and giving them to her as an anniversary present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    Note that everything you use there to play mind games on people was released by the Ink Monkeys, not in the MoEP: Infernals proper. I tend to disagree with the direction the Ink Monkeys are taking every Exalted Charm set they've touched. Yes, I realize Goodwin is an Ink Monkey and has worked on every Charm set I have ever considered to be amazing. The paradox boggles my mind too.
    To each their own I suppose. I, for one, love what their doing with the various Yozi charms, though some of them do feel a bit... off to me, such as Swillin's more "playful" charms (seriously, where did that come from?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    (Awesome)

    Tell me, honestly, which sounds more like the Ebon Dragon: "I made that man kill his lover." or "That man killed his lover because I led him to believe she was unfaithful."
    I withdraw my argument then. All of your points are quite good, and make me look at the Ebon Dragon differently. I sometimes have difficultly seeing him as something other than a mustache twirling villain. He's so much worse than that.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Fury View Post
    Oh dear. My mistake. I was under the impression that IDU forced the behavioral aspects upon them as well. I figured you'd still love your wife, but as a blood ape, you'd express said love by ripping her legs off and giving them to her as an anniversary present.
    Well, you can use IDU to impose behavior on someone if you know sorcery because once they are a demon they are a legitimate target for Slave Spawn Summons, but if you know sorcery there's easier ways to brainwash people.

    To each their own I suppose. I, for one, love what their doing with the various Yozi charms, though some of them do feel a bit... off to me, such as Swillin's more "playful" charms (seriously, where did that come from?).
    I'm glad other people notice the problem as well. The Ink Monkeys do some good things and have great ideas that I can't help but steal, but they also print some Charm text that makes me want to slap someone.

    I withdraw my argument then. All of your points are quite good, and make me look at the Ebon Dragon differently. I sometimes have difficultly seeing him as something other than a mustache twirling villain. He's so much worse than that.
    Let's not forget he is the mustache-twirling villain as well. If he isn't going to be able to corrupt you, he'll just smash your plans and give you the finger. But he is the grandest villian, the progenitor of true evil. Just stealing a baby's lolipop is not beneath him, but its not worth his time when he could be whispering about treason to the king's vizier and finding a way out of prison.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    See, I like most of the ink monkey's stuff, but I also view it as optional source material.

    That said, I do like their SWLiHN charms. Follow the Leader to me, for example, reads as "the universe has physical laws because I set those rules. You are breaking my rules. RAGE!!!" if you ignore the name and some of the text. Though I'm not sure I prefer it as a SWLiHN charm rather than a Cecelyne: it seems to hit the arbitrary social laws rather than actual physical ones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Two of Swilly's themes are social ones, though: Hierarchy and Taboo (mostly as a way to control people below you in the hierarchy). And, really, I think it's fine if the themes of two Yozi overlap a little. For instance, Malfeas and Isidoros both share the "Never give up, never surrender! ALWAYS FULL POWER! No one can control me! I will punch my limitations in the face until they stop being limitations!" themes.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    I know, which is why I'm ambivalent about it rather than opposed. I feel the workup works *better* as written for cecelyne, but I do like it as a moe charm.

    Also, Malfeas and Isidoros totally need to be spiral warriors, as do their exalts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    Also, Malfeas and Isidoros totally need to be spiral warriors, as do their exalts.
    What about Qaf, who is quite literally a drill-shaped entity that pierces the heavens? He also created the "principle of perfection", forging the first Perfect Defense, the concept of which he shared with the rest of the primordials so that they could fight off the Unshaped that wished to dissolve them back into the Wyld before they could make Creation.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    I'm not familiar with Qaf, but if he's the actual drill maybe malfeas and isidoros can Gattai! and wield him in battle.

    I have some reading to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I'm not familiar with Qaf, but if he's the actual drill maybe malfeas and isidoros can Gattai! and wield him in battle.

    I have some reading to do.
    Well, he's not a drill; he's a mountain. But mountains and drills have similar shapes, and there's nothing stopping Malfeas from Unity of the Closed Fist-ifying the two of them together, and having a giant rapidly-spinning mountain for the arm of their amalgam (or something similar).

    The size of such a thing...
    Last edited by Xefas; 2011-01-25 at 05:35 PM.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I know, which is why I'm ambivalent about it rather than opposed. I feel the workup works *better* as written for cecelyne, but I do like it as a moe charm.

    Also, Malfeas and Isidoros totally need to be spiral warriors, as do their exalts.
    Malfeas is entirely too trapped in the past and in his own immutable nature to be a Spiral Warrior. Spiral power is the power of evolution and change - the self-hating, past-dwelling Malfeas would suck as one.

    Plus SWLiHN would have an aneurysm to see her boss and emperor using the power that is most rawly opposed to herself in the universe .
    Last edited by Drascin; 2011-01-25 at 05:55 PM.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    Malfeas is entirely too trapped in the past and in his own immutable nature to be a Spiral Warrior. Spiral power is the power of evolution and change - the self-hating, past-dwelling Malfeas would suck as one.

    Plus SWLiHN would have an aneurysm to see her boss and emperor using the power that is most rawly opposed to herself in the universe .
    And that wouldn't be worth it in and of itself? And I was thinking of Malfeas as more "Pre-timeskip Lordgenome:" I.E. still mighty, but trapped in a spiral of self hatred and loneliness without possibility of living up to the person he might once have been, but still with a desire to be that person and the will to fight. Locked in a prison of his own making because of the surrender oaths he swore, unable to do the only things left in his life that bring him joy because of the same oaths without extenuating circumstances.

    I think it fits.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    Plus SWLiHN would have an aneurysm to see her boss and emperor using the power that is most rawly opposed to herself in the universe.
    Considering that Malfeas used to be The Empyreal Chaos, a being of pure power, evolution, and change, I think Swilly would be just fine. I imagine her as the typical secretary/personal-assistant-to-the-freakishly-eccentric-billionaire archetype.

    Like Mercy Graves, who's like "Oh, Lex, you're going to use 7.5 billion dollars to make yet another kryptonite laser cannon, instead of retiring with your fabulous wealth and living like a god on your own personal island/planet-if-you-wanted? possibly with me Yeah, I guess that's okay..."

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    Last edited by Xefas; 2011-01-25 at 06:21 PM.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    Really now? You mean the Ebon Dragon didn't fight SWLIHN to keep the Green Sun Princes largely free of supernatural shackles? You mean he wasn't the one who wrote free will into the pattern of every god and mortal despite SWLIHN's insistance?
    ******* over SWLIHN is kind of the thing Ebby would do, but again, remember, the Ebon Dragon always acts in his own interests.

    He values his own freedom. The Ebon Dragon is selfish. The only reason he's not a hypocrite is because that would imply he has standards.

    He gave the Green Sun Princes free will not because he gave a crap about their freedom, but because their freedom was necessary to carry out the Reclamation.

    Take a look at his First Excellency, the thing that dictates what he is capable of doing. He hates his own restraint in any form, but he literally cannot help someone else unless he would profit more then the person he's helping by that help.

    Also, his ultimate goal, his Urge (he doesn't have a Motivation) is to reduce the universe to a dark, Virtueless place, where his will alone dictates possibility.

    Just stealing a baby's lolipop is not beneath him, but its not worth his time when he could be whispering about treason to the king's vizier and finding a way out of prison.
    He has a self-inflicted Ophidian Urge. When he goes into Torment for a day, his vice that he is compelled to follow is petty evil for it's own sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    Two of Swilly's themes are social ones, though: Hierarchy and Taboo (mostly as a way to control people below you in the hierarchy)
    Controlling people below you is more Cecelyne's schtick then SWLIHN's, though there is some overlap.

    SWILIHN would create a social structure and enforce it strictly, but she doesn't necessarily have to be on the top of that structure (see: how she does everything Malfeas tells her to).

    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    Malfeas is entirely too trapped in the past and in his own immutable nature to be a Spiral Warrior. Spiral power is the power of evolution and change - the self-hating, past-dwelling Malfeas would suck as one.

    Plus SWLiHN would have an aneurysm to see her boss and emperor using the power that is most rawly opposed to herself in the universe .
    Malfeas-That-Was would be a great Spiral Warrior, though.

    And I dunno if SWLIHN would be that opposed to Spiral Energy. She's opposed to chaos in itself, but she dismantles order to make way for better order.

    She's totally Rossiu, in other words.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Actually, the Ebon Dragon's principles and excellency bring up a question my friend had. He asked if 1) you could arrange a situation where you profited massively from the perspective of virtue and only from that perspective, and 2) lied about it, and 3) the ebon dragon gained profit, 4) would he believe he was screwing you over and help save that orphanage?

    I said yes, but it would be difficult to convince him. Or that he might realize you're lying but not necessarily about what or be able to grasp that saving the orphans gives you a warm fuzzy just for the joy of helping them.

    Thoughts?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    ******* over SWLIHN is kind of the thing Ebby would do, but again, remember, the Ebon Dragon always acts in his own interests.

    He values his own freedom. The Ebon Dragon is selfish. The only reason he's not a hypocrite is because that would imply he has standards.

    He gave the Green Sun Princes free will not because he gave a crap about their freedom, but because their freedom was necessary to carry out the Reclamation.

    Take a look at his First Excellency, the thing that dictates what he is capable of doing. He hates his own restraint in any form, but he literally cannot help someone else unless he would profit more then the person he's helping by that help.
    But the Ebon Dragon does benefit from the freedom of others more than anyone. Back when the Primordials crafted Creation, he insisted on free will just so all the gods could realize how screwed over they were. They only got to watch as the Primordials played X-Box and pwnt noobs on the interwebs and had to do the grunt work of keeping all those dang-blasted raksha from sneaking in the back door like cockroaches. Mortals? What good did free will do mortals? I mean even in the High First Age the average mortal's choices amounted to "Will I wear red today or blue?" Their free will just meant that when the Ebon Dragon felt like torturing ants (Who doesn't get that feeling once or twice a century?) he could go ruin a few hundred thousand mortals lives for kicks and giggles.

    Now? Free will is his only possible get-out-of-jail-free card. He needs not only 50 Green Sun Princes choosing to send Creation to Hell, but countless cultists, powermongers, corrupt bureaucrats, and lust-blinded idiots all choosing the wrong things for the wrong reasons at all the wrong times to get his schemes to fruition. He needs Chejop Kejack choosing to look left when he might see something important by looking right, the Bull of the North commiting forces to fighting the Realm when he could be fighting Hell, and so on and so forth.

    And if he wins? I think you'll find the Ebon Dragon leaves free will right where it is. He'll tie up all those nasty loose ends called the Exalted, seal them away in Lytek's cabnet where they can't muck up his schemes any longer, and spend a few millenia getting everyone else to destroy themselves for him. What other way could be more entertaining? In the end, the only remaining choice will be to listen to the voice in the darkness, but how you get there matters ever so much.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    ...
    You know why the ED is a great villain?

    You're completely right, completely in character, and your posts about him are making my spine tingle in fear.

    Rock on you, rock on Exalted.
    Now I need to hide behind some solars. Back later.
    Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2011-01-26 at 03:55 AM.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    I'm here for you lixie, don't worry.

    Seriously, though, any thoughts on the possibility of tricking the ebon dragon with things he is incapable of understanding?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I'm here for you lixie, don't worry.

    Seriously, though, any thoughts on the possibility of tricking the ebon dragon with things he is incapable of understanding?
    (clings. Sexily.)

    Hmm. Potentially possible... but as people said earlier, he IS capable of change... it's likely he does comprehend the ideas of good and such, but despises them...
    Then again, truly sociopathic humans, AFAIK, don't understand virtuous behaviour. So it's likely he wouldn't either.

    ....in conclusion, I haven't a clue. Yet I managed to tack my sexy clinging onto an on-topic post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    (clings. Sexily.)

    Hmm. Potentially possible... but as people said earlier, he IS capable of change... it's likely he does comprehend the ideas of good and such, but despises them...
    Then again, truly sociopathic humans, AFAIK, don't understand virtuous behaviour. So it's likely he wouldn't either.
    He can, through Black Mirror Shintai, get an Intelligence and Perception score, which allows him to think of things outside his Excellency and consider virtuous and non-anti-heroic things for a while. However, then he will become Ebon Dragon again, and forget why he considered such things.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Not only that, Black Mirror Shintai also copies Virtue ratings. Make of that what you will.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

    Oy. So my lady was having some difficulty sleeping last night, and we got to talking about a weird dream I had had, which involved pestering Toad (from the Mario series) until he gave me a bi-plane which flew around firing essence cannons at a bunch of other planes.
    ...
    Anyways, that got us talking about Mario & Exalted, and trying to fit the various characters into various Exaltations and things like that. Now, I'm still relatively new to Exalted, and a lot of the various types are still pretty foreign to me, but this is what we came up with - feel free to offer your own opinions, a lot of ours are probably not the most accurate.

    Mario - Solar. He's the main man, he's pretty much gotta be. Besides which, fire flower = Blazing Solar Bolt? Invincibility Star = Perfect defense with Valor flaw?

    Luigi - Solar, low Valor score.

    Yoshi - Lunar?

    Toads - We weren't sure whether the toads would be mortals, or if you would equate the Mushroom Kingdom to the Realm, and have the Toads be Terrestrials. If this is the case, then I'm really a bit hazy on where Peach fits in.

    Princess Peach - The Scarlet Empress?!?! (Probably not, we just couldn't figure her out.)

    Rosalina (Galaxy) - Sidereal. No question here.

    Goombas - Extras? Weak First Circle Demons?

    Koopa troops - First circle demons, probably.

    Boos - Spirits, ghosts.

    Bowser - Not sure with him, either. 3rd circle demon? Deathlord? Primordial?

    Wario - Abyssal, probably.

    Waluigi - Abyssal

    Geno (Legend of Seven Stars) - Sidereal

    Haunted Mansions - Shadowlands


    Anyways, that's all I can come up with right now, which is probably for the best.

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