General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

[Xefas]

You severely underestimate just how much of a disadvantage it is to have mutations, which you have to look at in a setting as established as it is in Exalted. You dismiss social stigma, which is in fact going to cripple you unless you're constantly socially-persuading people, which is not really a viable option. People in Creation are people, and they are heavily prejudiced against mutants. They're also not stupid. They're not going to believe a line about being blessed by a non-existant god. Unless you're using social-fu. Which has it's own problems.

I think you're overestimating. Yes, they're prejudiced against mutants, but in this case, you wouldn't be a mutant. And there are sufficiently enough things in the world that could reasonably give you something that is mechanically represented as a mutation that I don't think everyone is going to immediately jump on you. I said "God of Things That Can Fly", but I certainly hope you knew that wasn't completely serious.

Find a god that is reasonably associated with something resembling an animal or the sky or something. Do something nice for him. Ask him to give you a high-five. Proceed to tell everyone you were blessed by him. It's not a lie. Alternatively, say you were blessed by Luna - you're speaking figuratively, because her ever-shifting form inspired you to dabble in altering yourself. Or say your were blessed by the Sun - that's absolutely true.

Or are you suggesting entire towns of people will just attack anything that looks remotely strange? Lost Eggs? Godbloods? Their own city god who happens to look like a winged ferret? Ted, the carpenter from down the street who wrote a poem so beautiful that the Goddess of Desert Herons hit him with her wing-granting mojo?

There's also reason that the Solars rely on internal techniques, or have abilities that allow them to always have their external aids at hand. A fight against anyone with the capability to harm you is going to see your wings being targeted.

You can apply this to anything. Oh, the Solar has arms? Called shot; he's dumb for having such a weakness. Eyes? Well, called shot on them too. What's the penalty for targeting the poor Solar's junk who hasn't bought Junk Internalizing Technique?

A starting Solar is astronomically far from being anywhere near the top. They have the potential to get there, but that's a long way away.

We're not talking about a starting Solar. We're talking about an Essence 4 Solar who has sunk a non-trivial amount of experience into doing this one thing.

And I think you know full well what I meant. Solars are the most powerful entities in the Exalted universe, and they should be able to do this with relative ease. Becoming Essence 10, dying, and then having a Neverborn soul attached to you is not "relative ease".

It fits within the thematics of the Solar Exalted, which is really what you should be considering when you look at a Charm.

They are peerless archers. And an archer is never without his bow. A Solar never need find himself defenseless from chance or malice, for he can will it and his weapon will appear at his hand.

That's absolutely what I'm considering. I think flight fits very nicely into the thematics of the Solar Exalted. I agree that Summoning the Loyal Bow works with the thematics of an archer, I do not, however, think it works with the thematic of "mundane abilities, but better", which is what we were talking about. You're changing the context of what I said.

Of course, you're also wrong.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I think you're overestimating. Yes, they're prejudiced against mutants, but in this case, you wouldn't be a mutant.

And they know this how?

And there are sufficiently enough things in the world that could reasonably give you something that is mechanically represented as a mutation that I don't think everyone is going to immediately jump on you.

There are several things that can give you a mutation. I can't think of a single one that's benevolent.

I said "God of Things That Can Fly", but I certainly hope you knew that wasn't completely serious.

There is in fact a God of Things That Can Fly. The last threads title was not hyperbole.

Or are you suggesting entire towns of people will just attack anything that looks remotely strange?

There's a slight difference between "remotely strange" and having a thirty-foot wingspan.

Lost Eggs?

Are Dragon-Blooded. Rulers of a good chunk of Creation. People know what a DB is. They also don't have incredibly glaring physical abnormalities.

Godbloods?

Are heavily persecuted in a lot of places.

Their own city god who happens to look like a winged ferret?

Is a god. One they grew up with.

Ted, the carpenter from down the street who wrote a poem so beautiful that the Goddess of Desert Herons hit him with her wing-granting mojo?

Ted is going to likely find himself run out of town. Or burned to death.

You can apply this to anything. Oh, the Solar has arms? Called shot; he's dumb for having such a weakness. Eyes? Well, called shot on them too. What's the penalty for targeting the poor Solar's junk who hasn't bought Junk Internalizing Technique?

This is fair enough. I'll withdraw that remark. However, there is a slight difference between a giant obvious pair of wings and your arms.

We're not talking about a starting Solar. We're talking about an Essence 4 Solar who has sunk a non-trivial amount of experience into doing this one thing.

Three or four charms is not a heavy amount of experience.

And an Essence 4 Solar still has a ways to go.

And I think you know full well what I meant. Solars are the most powerful entities in the Exalted universe, and they should be able to do this with relative ease. Becoming Essence 10, dying, and then having a Neverborn soul attached to you is not "relative ease".

A Essence 10 Solar is the most powerful entity in the Exalted universe, sure. A lower Essence Solar can beat a lot of things, even things you would suspect would be outside of his weight class. But they are not the most powerful beings in the Exalted universe.

And again, being a Solar does not automatically make you able to do everything with ease. A Solar can do almost anything with enough time and work. That does not mean they can do anything easily.

Flying is one of those things. Hell, flying is not one of those things. Waiting until Essence 4 to gain personal flight isn't a huge restriction.

That's absolutely what I'm considering. I think flight fits very nicely into the thematics of the Solar Exalted. I agree that Summoning the Loyal Bow works with the thematics of an archer, I do not, however, think it works with the thematic of "mundane abilities, but better", which is what we were talking about. You're changing the context of what I said.

Except "mundane abilities, but better" is only one theme of the Solar Exalted.

Uh. Page 189, Exalted 2e. Check it.

[Xefas]

Ted is going to likely find himself run out of town. Or burned to death.

Okay, I think this characterizes the problem with this whole first bit. You're making the world out to be more vicious and xenophobic that I think the default necessarily is. I get that the world is meant to be vicious and xenophobic to a degree, but it's also supposed to be a place of fantasy. A place where fantasy things happen; not a place that just stamps out any overtly fantastic things without asking any questions.

Hell, I posted an article earlier written by one of the Exalted developers saying that no one in Creation would hate you even if they knew you were an Infernal. Even if you glowed with malicious green light and had wings and horns and giant brass armor covered with spikes and blasphemous writing.

Now, maybe you play in a world far more grimdark than the developers intended, but I don't think that should enter into the equation.

Three or four charms is not a heavy amount of experience.

That's why I said "non-trivial". If I gave everyone in a party 100xp, but Steve only gets 68xp, he'll notice. So, it's non-trivial.

A Essence 10 Solar is the most powerful entity in the Exalted universe, sure. A lower Essence Solar can beat a lot of things, even things you would suspect would be outside of his weight class. But they are not the most powerful beings in the Exalted universe.

I don't understand. You're simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing with me. I'm saying "Solars are the most powerful entity in the Exalted Universe", and you're saying "Yes. But no, if they're weaker than everyone else".

And again, being a Solar does not automatically make you able to do everything with ease. A Solar can do almost anything with enough time and work. That does not mean they can do anything easily.

Flying is one of those things. Hell, flying is not one of those things. Waiting until Essence 4 to gain personal flight isn't a huge restriction.

I'm not disagreeing with this. I'm fine with Solars waiting until Essence 4. Solars can already do almost what I'm saying. I'm just saying they should be able to do it without the arbitrary restrictions.

Except "mundane abilities, but better" is only one theme of the Solar Exalted.

Which was the one we were talking about when I said the thing you were quoting and then opposing.

Uh. Page 189, Exalted 2e. Check it.

I realize that. However, I can use that same information as a counter argument. "Look!", I could say, "Essence Arrow Attack and Phantom Arrow Technique are its prerequisites, which involve doing Archery, but better, whereas Summoning the Loyal Bow has nothing to do with Archery - but rather to do with being an Archer, which is completely different."

[Tavar]

By default setting, the people of the Air must hide their wings or be mistaken for mutants/beastmen. People of the Air, if you don't know, look like mortals with wings.


Yeah, creation's pretty zenophobic.

[Kris Strife]

So, I just read Eagle Wing Style, and it sounds pretty much exactly like what Gohan said when he taught Videl to fly. I'm wondering if that was intentional.

[The Rose Dragon]

EDIT: Parallel discussion: Does anyone think it's too freaking difficult for Solars to fly? They get Eagle Wing Style, which is Ath 5, Ess 4, with three prerequisites that are rendered mostly useless once you actually get Eagle Wing Style. It's 4m,1wp, scene long, has an arbitrary distance-from-ground cap, and prohibits the use of two-handed weapons.

It's three prerequisites are Graceful Crane Stance, Spider-Foot Style and Feather-Foot Style, which are all Essence 2 and thus never rendered useless, since unlike an Essence 4 Charm, you can have them up indefinitely.

[Lix Lorn]

But why would you need perfect balance when you can fly?

[The Rose Dragon]

But why would you need perfect balance when you can fly?

Because it is scene-long, costs Willpower to use and Essence 4. At Essence 4, you can get Unparalleled Acumen Meditation and have all three Charms (plus Lightning Speed and Monkey Leap Technique if you have them) up indefinitely for a lower cost than the sum of all three. And you can stop your movement and use your grand daiklave at the same time.

Why would you need flight if no one else is flying, anyway? Maybe if you need to cross lava or something, but otherwise, perfect balance gets you the same amount of places as flight for cheaper.

[Lix Lorn]

Flying is cooller?
Otherwise fair points.

[The Rose Dragon]

Flying is cooller?
Otherwise fair points.

I prefer function over form in most things, so I'll have to agree to disagree if that is your argument.

[Lix Lorn]

In the case of function, you are certainly right.

[Drascin]

Hmm... Heroic mortals, wielding special weapons made from the bodies of dead behemoths... it could work. Trick is, you would need an exalt to enchant the weapons with some form of sorcery to give the mortals a chance. Perhaps something to make the weapon better at killing the class of being it was made from, and armor that boosts DVs against the same... Also: all the monsters have very small accuracy pools.

Small accuracy pools? You've never been on the wrong side of a Diablos's Homing Charge, have you? The only thing that allows you to dodge that thing is the game-induced temprary invulnerabilty hax

But, in any case, as said, the problems are manyfold. First, an important point about Monhun weapons is that while they are near-magic, it's not their forger that makes them magic. It's the materials used, the fiery gullet of a fire wyvern giving your hammer fire powers, or the nimbleness of the Nargacuga getting imbued in the armor made from its skin. This doesn't jive much with Exalted's "you must have this much Essence to forge decent weapons" rollercoaster-like entry bar. Plus an Exalt can make the same thing with the terrible skypiercer of an Alatreon's head (which, for the noninitiated, is basically a Penta-Elemental Elemental Dragon) as with a chunk of orichalcum, which kind of hurts the conceit of it all a bit. Actually, on a practical sense, it'd be better to go with the Orichalcum or whatever - it's just going to look gaudy as hell, as the Magical materials are wont to. And of course, there's the attunement cost.

However, this is really the least bothersome part. Waive Attunements, make the Wyverian crafters into Mountain Folk, and works well enough.

No, the problem is, again, there's the annoying "mortals just lose at everything" attitude pervading all of Exalted's ruleset. There's entirely too many effects that don't so much as allow a save to mortals (especially among the Fae, which is a big problem if we're going to be fighting Behemoths, since Fae are generally the ones that make the behemoths). Monster Hunter is all about how normal humans, through arduous training, smart fighting, and balls of solid orichalcum, can overcome impressive monsters that could kill them wenty times over (fairly reflected on how you need a couple hundred hits to kill a monster that kills you in two). Exalted is mostly about how normal humans suck and you all but need magic to not trip on your own feet. This causes a bit of a themathic and mechanical clash, to put it mildly. It's probably going to take a fair deal of houseruling and plain ignoring a great deal of stuff, to be honest.

[horngeek]

Incidentally, a question:

How often do you make a character and then go 'hey, I've just made [insert anime/movie/tv show character] as an Exalted!'?

I mean, in one game on these forums, one of my characters has a lot in common with Winry... but that's all. On the other hand, I'm itching to play a Night Caste based on Ezio Auditore da Firenze or Assassin from Fate/Stay Night (Tsubame Gaeshi is easy to do with Solar Melee, though).

[The Rose Dragon]

But, in any case, as said, the problems are manyfold. First, an important point about Monhun weapons is that while they are near-magic, it's not their forger that makes them magic. It's the materials used, the fiery gullet of a fire wyvern giving your hammer fire powers, or the nimbleness of the Nargacuga getting imbued in the armor made from its skin. This doesn't jive much with Exalted's "you must have this much Essence to forge decent weapons" rollercoaster-like entry bar.

This does not seem to be a big problem, since a mortal with no Essence pool and an Essence rating of 1 can create artifacts up to 3 dots (it will take hell of a long time, and if he does it alone, he will need to find the exotic components himself, which is mighty dangerous, but still).

[Lix Lorn]

Incidentally, a question:

How often do you make a character and then go 'hey, I've just made [insert anime/movie/tv show character] as an Exalted!'?

I mean, in one game on these forums, one of my characters has a lot in common with Winry... but that's all. On the other hand, I'm itching to play a Night Caste based on Ezio Auditore da Firenze or Assassin from Fate/Stay Night (Tsubame Gaeshi is easy to do with Solar Melee, though).

Only when it's deliberate? No, that's a lie.
My DB, Cynis Aeris Saera, is essentially a non-evil, slutty version of Azula.

She is also the most awesome character I have. She does the roleplaying for me!

[TheCountAlucard]

How often do you make a character and then go 'hey, I've just made [insert anime/movie/tv show character] as an Exalted!'?

Not too often, myself, but I obviously see how it can be done. It's mostly because the number of Exalts I've statted out myself can still be counted on one hand.

But partially-due to my vision being blurry when I've taken my contact lenses out, having read your post, I feel the strangest desire to make an Exalt based off of Yotsuba.

[Drascin]

Incidentally, a question:

How often do you make a character and then go 'hey, I've just made [insert anime/movie/tv show character] as an Exalted!'?

I mean, in one game on these forums, one of my characters has a lot in common with Winry... but that's all. On the other hand, I'm itching to play a Night Caste based on Ezio Auditore da Firenze or Assassin from Fate/Stay Night (Tsubame Gaeshi is easy to do with Solar Melee, though).

Generally, it's relatively deliberate when it happens - I have little problem in cribbing inspiration from anywhere at all, long as it's not a total clone. I've done a Zero-based alchemical (which, to be honest, was a short ride. The Alchemicals manual is swimming in Megaman references), and if I ever manage to get the stomach to play a Solar, it's going to be based off either Carmen Sandiego or Ferb Fletcher.

This does not seem to be a big problem, since a mortal with no Essence pool and an Essence rating of 1 can create artifacts up to 3 dots (it will take hell of a long time, and if he does it alone, he will need to find the exotic components himself, which is mighty dangerous, but still).

Oh, the craftsman wouldn't find the components himself. Really, Hunters and craftsmen have a symbiotic relationship. Hunters are the ones who go out and beat horrible monsters and expertly skin them - craftsmen then use those pieces to make stuff for the Hunters. Still, Wyverians do fit as Mountain Folk in any case.

But partially-due to my vision being blurry when I've taken my contact lenses out, having read your post, I feel the strangest desire to make an Exalt based off of Yotsuba.

Yotsuba doesn't need no stinking Social Charms to make everyone's lives happier!

[Jokasti]

Incidentally, a question:

How often do you make a character and then go 'hey, I've just made [insert anime/movie/tv show character] as an Exalted!'?

I mean, in one game on these forums, one of my characters has a lot in common with Winry... but that's all. On the other hand, I'm itching to play a Night Caste based on Ezio Auditore da Firenze or Assassin from Fate/Stay Night (Tsubame Gaeshi is easy to do with Solar Melee, though).

Not too often to never. I can't remember a case except for one time I made a lawyer who ended up like Phoenix Wright? I've never played that game though so i'unno.

[SurlySeraph]

I'm trying to make a Ghost-Blooded character, and I ran up against this in Scroll of Heroes: "Children of ghosts can learn Arcanoi just as their parents, but they suffer the same limitations as other God-Blooded. For example, Ghost-Bloods cannot usually reshape their flesh."

What exactly does that mean? Does it ban using Shifting Ghost-Clay Arcanoi on yourself? Does it ban using Pyre Smoke Form to become immaterial?

How often do you make a character and then go 'hey, I've just made [insert anime/movie/tv show character] as an Exalted!'?

Not often, but halfway through writing up a Twilight with Deliberate Cruelty, every healing-related artifact and hearthstone I could, and a Wrackstaff fluffed as a cane, I realized that he was basically House.

[The Rose Dragon]

I'm trying to make a Ghost-Blooded character, and I ran up against this in Scroll of Heroes: "Children of ghosts can learn Arcanoi just as their parents, but they suffer the same limitations as other God-Blooded. For example, Ghost-Bloods cannot usually reshape their flesh."

What exactly does that mean? Does it ban using Shifting Ghost-Clay Arcanoi on yourself? Does it ban using Pyre Smoke Form to become immaterial?

Basically, it means that Arcanoi depending on immaterial nature and corpus do not work on Ghost-blooded. So, you can use Pyre Smoke Form, but not Shifting Ghost-Clay arcanoi.

[Cyborg Mage]

I am officially a slave to my muse. So far I have a desire to homebrew:

• A martial art style combining extreme muscle control with essence to do stuff like providing natural lethal/bashing soak and hardness.
• A Yozi charm tree (And a few souls/demons) with a higher-power charm (Just for flavour so far) that basically makes history false.
• A Warstrider-sized adamant daiklaive made from a piece of The Core.
• A Soulsteel daiklaive forged from one of the Neverborn. (Rather brave, rather stupid Abyssal.)

Thoughts?

[Lix Lorn]

I am officially a slave to my muse. So far I have a desire to homebrew:

A martial art style combining extreme muscle control with essence to do stuff like providing natural lethal/bashing soak and hardness.

So... Earth Dragon Style?

A Yozi charm tree (And a few souls/demons) with a higher-power charm (Just for flavour so far) that basically makes history false.

Sounds headachey.

A Warstrider-sized adamant daiklaive made from a piece of The Core.

Awesome!

A Soulsteel daiklaive forged from one of the Neverborn. (Rather brave, rather stupid Abyssal.)

They are gonna HATE you. xD Plus how?

[meschlum]

Flying 101:

a) Find a f(r)iendly Fair Folk Diplomat.
b) Give it gossamer (or mortals, or...)
c) Get your own Staff Grace from your f(r)iend
d) Have the f(r)iend turn it into a 1-dot Adjuration with Gossamer Winged Flight
e) Enjoy the ability to fly, per Wings mutation, without wings, for 1 commited mote.

f) If you really want to go further, be an Exalt, get a 2-dot Adjuration instead of 1-dot, and add Racing Dragon Speed for accelerated flight.

Feasible at Essence 2 (or 1)

[Mr.Bookworm]

A martial art style combining extreme muscle control with essence to do stuff like providing natural lethal/bashing soak and hardness.

There are martial arts that can do this kind of stuff, but it's not really an appropriate thing to base an entire style around (not that my opinion should stop you if you want to do this). Martial arts are supposed to do weird things that you can't access with your own charm tree.

A Yozi charm tree (And a few souls/demons) with a higher-power charm (Just for flavour so far) that basically makes history false.

That's a loooooot of homebrewing. What do you mean by "makes history false"?

A Warstrider-sized adamant daiklaive made from a piece of The Core.

The Core is the fetich soul or jouten of Autochthon. If you knock a piece off it, you're going to have bigger problems then figuring out how to make it into a daiklave.

A Soulsteel daiklaive forged from one of the Neverborn. (Rather brave, rather stupid Abyssal.)

Primordials and their ilk don't have souls.

They have people to do that for them.

a) Find a f(r)iendly Fair Folk Diplomat.

I have cunningly spotted the flaw in your plan.

[Cyborg Mage]

So... Earth Dragon Style?

Was wondering if there was anything similar. Soz.

Sounds headachey.

It's more straightforward than it sounds. It doesn't rewrite history per se, but instead changes any document on the event, monument, piece of artwork and even people's memories of said event. However, a great honking crater or something will still be there, they'll just put it down to something else.

Awesome!

Exactly the point. Basically, even wielding this weapon declares ULTIMATE GENOCIDE!

They are gonna HATE you. xD Plus how?

Yes. I am worried. No wait, now I can turn my school into a shadowland! MWAHAHA! DIE, MORONS! And on a serious note, let's say it's the reason Resonance exists.

[Tavar]

The Core is the fetich soul or jouten of Autochthon. If you knock a piece off it, you're going to have bigger problems then figuring out how to make it into a daiklave.

Well, there's a pretty big tradition of spirits giving parts of themselves into the creation of an artifact. Not going to be easy, by any means, but perhaps you can ask him about it.

Primordials and their ilk don't have souls.

They have people to do that for them.

Well, using part of the neverborn itself would certainly be an exotic component. Probably fit for an N/A artifact, all by itself(getting the piece, now that's the hard part.).



Also, anyone have a good idea for the name of an Earth Manse? It's supposed to be a hidden cavern, and either a Workshop manse or more likely an Atelier-Manse.

[golentan]

As I remembered, Autocthon already had chunks of his core pulled out for artifact creation. He's got defense spirits there to keep people from just randomly pulling out bits of his brain, but the divine ministers do periodically approve the taking of small amounts of adamant from the great maker's mind for vital projects.

[Tavar]

Just checking, since I lack the book, what does Repair 4 entail?

[The Rose Dragon]

Just checking, since I lack the book, what does Repair 4 entail?

Not much. It means that if you find one lying around, it's probably going to require some repairs. It also means that some effects work differently for it. It does not, however, mean it needs maintenance.

[Cyborg Mage]

This is, however, no small ammount. While not exactly very dangerous to his health, it's widely agreed that the chunk of the Core that made the daiklaive is the reason Autochthon isn't waking up. However, they simply aren't sure how to reattach such a large shard without causing further damage to The Core. For example, they're not sure whether the Design Weavers will reattach it themselves or go autoimmune on it (It was made a long time ago).