General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

[Kris Strife]

So... Gaia's a chronic masturbator?

There's a questionable joke about earthquakes somewhere in this.

[golentan]

What, did the earth move for you too?

[Rockphed]

So... Gaia's a chronic masturbator?

Also, I think Gnosis is mentioned as one of her jouten rather than one of her souls.

Was it this thread that put forward the idea that Sol was The Ebon Dragon's fetich? Either way, I was going to suggest that Luna was Gaia's Fetich because if one god is a Primordial Fetich, then couldn't more be? Then again, how much disconnect can there be between a primordial and his souls? Also, if Sol was a demon, wouldn't he have been able to prance about doing what he wanted instead of having to kow-tow to any primordial who so much as glared at him?

[Reynard]

Was it this thread that put forward the idea that Sol was The Ebon Dragon's fetich? Either way, I was going to suggest that Luna was Gaia's Fetich because if one god is a Primordial Fetich, then couldn't more be? Then again, how much disconnect can there be between a primordial and his souls? Also, if Sol was a demon, wouldn't he have been able to prance about doing what he wanted instead of having to kow-tow to any primordial who so much as glared at him?

Actually, I can't find any canon instances of Sol actually doing that. He's also the one who organized the first Usurpation, something which a God shouldn't have been able to do, given the safeguards the Primordials put in place when creating Gods.

That's evidence for Luna and the Maidens possibly being fetiches as well, due to their very very close involvement of the creation of the Exalts.

Also, it makes sense that the Primordials wouldn't leave 7 powerful Gods in charge of running the place. Not that their souls have a decent track record for reliability, but their egos probably couldn't resist it.

[meschlum]

Wait, how did you find a way to bring someone back from the dead?

There are ways to give people lots of health levels. Lots. If you time it just right, you can restore them after they take a hit that drops them past their last Dying level. It's harder post-errata, true (rather than an Adjuration with lots of Ox Bodies in it, you now use a Bestial Transformation for massive size).

Imposition of Law may let you cure the Great Contagion, so that deals with most mundane diseases.

Behemoth Forging Meditation no longer works on Exalts. Otherwise (or for mortals), turn them into Fey Beasts via mutations that have no effect (large/small/large/small...), and Unshaped Sword Transformation lets you restore them after they've been destroyed.

With a little preparation time, use Outward Facing Bestial Transformation to grant people nearby (including Exalts) the Immortal Flesh mutation. Say it's because they're turned into starfish. It only lasts for Essence days, but still... Add in the Immortality mutation (turtle transformation) for temporary immunity to aging - even if you're an Exalt. It's preventive rather than reactive, but there you go.

[Primal Fury]

Was it this thread that put forward the idea that Sol was The Ebon Dragon's fetich? Either way, I was going to suggest that Luna was Gaia's Fetich because if one god is a Primordial Fetich, then couldn't more be? Then again, how much disconnect can there be between a primordial and his souls? Also, if Sol was a demon, wouldn't he have been able to prance about doing what he wanted instead of having to kow-tow to any primordial who so much as glared at him?

I don't like the idea that god's can be Fetiches, or even souls of Primordials. It really makes no sense. More than anything it's the timeline. Gods explicitly did not exist before Creation was created, but the Primordials did, in all their glory (including the Devas of various circles).

[vegetalss4]

There are ways to give people lots of health levels. Lots. If you time it just right, you can restore them after they take a hit that drops them past their last Dying level. It's harder post-errata, true (rather than an Adjuration with lots of Ox Bodies in it, you now use a Bestial Transformation for massive size).

this doesn't actually work since once they have lost their last dying health level, they die and their corpse becomes an object, so all you are doing is creating a very big very tough, but still dead, corpse.

Imposition of Law may let you cure the Great Contagion, so that deals with most mundane diseases.

I am not sure that you can cure the Great Contagion merely by getting a lot of successes, but even if it works this will only help someone who hasn't been killed yet.

Behemoth Forging Meditation no longer works on Exalts. Otherwise (or for mortals), turn them into Fey Beasts via mutations that have no effect (large/small/large/small...), and Unshaped Sword Transformation lets you restore them after they've been destroyed.

those Fey Beasts are artifact not just mutated creatures, they aren't really "alive" in the first place nor are they sapient or even sentient, so if you turn people into Fey Beasts you are killing them.

[Jokasti]

I'm working on my poem for one SMA I'm working on and would like some feedback.
The Student's Sutra of Sensation: Once, there was a guardian maiden
Who was placed on the tallest mountain
In the tallest spire
And told to watch.
"For what?" she asked.
"You will know when you see it."
She saw it, and she knew
But there was no way down anymore
The Elder's Sutra of Sensation: except for a window.
On the way down, she said,
"Life is not what you see, but what you

[Mr.Bookworm]

Was it this thread that put forward the idea that Sol was The Ebon Dragon's fetich? Either way, I was going to suggest that Luna was Gaia's Fetich because if one god is a Primordial Fetich, then couldn't more be? Then again, how much disconnect can there be between a primordial and his souls? Also, if Sol was a demon, wouldn't he have been able to prance about doing what he wanted instead of having to kow-tow to any primordial who so much as glared at him?

It makes sense with Sol, because he came into existence to define and give form to the Ebon Dragon, which is pretty much exactly what a fetich is. It makes far less sense with any of the other gods.

We also have gotten some expansion (I'll see if I can dig it up) on what the Charm that the Primordials used to keep the gods from directly attacking them does. Basically, that geas only applies if a god directly attacks a Primordial. If one of the Primordials attacks a god, that god has the geas lifted from him for a day. Also, Malfeas can lift the geas. Hence why, say, the Primordials never took out the Incarnae in the Primordial War.

[Kyeudo]

I'm working on my poem for one SMA I'm working on and would like some feedback.
The Student's Sutra of Sensation: Once, there was a guardian maiden
Who was placed on the tallest mountain
In the tallest spire
And told to watch.
"For what?" she asked.
"You will know when you see it."
She saw it, and she knew
But there was no way down anymore
The Elder's Sutra of Sensation: except for a window.
On the way down, she said,
"Life is not what you see, but what you

Looks good except for that last line. It just drops off.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Looks good except for that last line. It just drops off.

The maiden just went out a window.

Think about it.

[Kyeudo]

The maiden just went out a window.

Think about it.

The maidens are Essence 10 gods. Physics need not apply, plus the drop off is jarring to read.

[Friv]

I don't like the idea that god's can be Fetiches, or even souls of Primordials. It really makes no sense. More than anything it's the timeline. Gods explicitly did not exist before Creation was created, but the Primordials did, in all their glory (including the Devas of various circles).

The idea for the UCS as Fetich comes from the fact that the Ebon Dragon wasn't the Ebon Dragon before the UCS existed, he was the Dragon's Shadow. It was only when the Sun gave him definition by becoming the embodiment of virtue that he became its antithesis.

Therefore, an argument could be made that, rules-wise, the Dragon's Shadow successfully gave up his fetich and took a new one by filling the material created by Malfeas, thereby transforming his nature as usual for Primordials. It requires probably a few tweaks, but if you assume that the Unconquered Sun is a synthesis of the mantle and the being, it could be a weird edge case. (It would mean that it would be conceivably possible to give the mantle to another fetich later on, too, which would make for interesting story material.)

The same argument can't be made for Luna, unless you drastically change her backstory - Gaia's nature has not, as near as we have seen, changed at all, and Luna was canonically made by Cytherea and Oramus.

[The Rose Dragon]

The idea for the UCS as Fetich comes from the fact that the Ebon Dragon wasn't the Ebon Dragon before the UCS existed, he was the Dragon's Shadow. It was only when the Sun gave him definition by becoming the embodiment of virtue that he became its antithesis.

He was the Dragon's Shadow until the end of the Primordial War. Only after one of his souls was executed did he become the Ebon Dragon.

[Mr.Bookworm]

The idea for the UCS as Fetich comes from the fact that the Ebon Dragon wasn't the Ebon Dragon before the UCS existed, he was the Dragon's Shadow. It was only when the Sun gave him definition by becoming the embodiment of virtue that he became its antithesis.

Actually, the Dragon's Shadow is what the Ebon Dragon became post-UCS.

But before the Unconquered Sun existed, the Dragon's Shadow could not affect the world at all. He was completely impotent, unable to interact with the world in any way.

When the Solars shoved him into Malfeas, like all of the other Primordials, his form was changed. In his case, from being the shadow of a dragon to being the dragon itself.

The maidens are Essence 10 gods. Physics need not apply, plus the drop off is jarring to read.

The maidens of the sutras are not the Five Maidens (otherwise, one of the Maidens should be short a hand). The sutras are just poems that prove the point and thematics of a style.

[meschlum]

this doesn't actually work since once they have lost their last dying health level, they die and their corpse becomes an object, so all you are doing is creating a very big very tough, but still dead, corpse.

Quite. Which is why timing is crucial.

I am not sure that you can cure the Great Contagion merely by getting a lot of successes, but even if it works this will only help someone who hasn't been killed yet.

Absolutely. If it works, it's still helpful, though.

those Fey Beasts are artifact not just mutated creatures, they aren't really "alive" in the first place nor are they sapient or even sentient, so if you turn people into Fey Beasts you are killing them.

Nope! Normal Fey Beasts, certainly. Targets of Behemoth Forging Meditation, not so much. They keep their attributes (even pre-errata), so they are sentient. And post-errata, it is specifically stated that they need to be 'broken in' and social-fu'd into service, which sounds like keeping a lot of their former selves to me...

I never said any of this was easy, but Fair Folk are fairly close to making it possible, which I find fun (and GM dependent).

The interesting setting chatter may now resume.

[Tavar]

If they haven't lost their last dying level yet, though, then they aren't dead. Thus, you're not bringing them back from the dead any more than, say, a solar using charms to instantly heal someone is.

[vegetalss4]

Quite. Which is why timing is crucial.



Absolutely. If it works, it's still helpful, though.

but then you don't actually resurrect someone, you just prevent them from dying, which can be done far easier, defend other and a perfect parry of some-kind for instance.

Nope! Normal Fey Beasts, certainly. Targets of Behemoth Forging Meditation, not so much. They keep their attributes (even pre-errata), so they are sentient. And post-errata, it is specifically stated that they need to be 'broken in' and social-fu'd into service, which sounds like keeping a lot of their former selves to me...

I never said any of this was easy, but Fair Folk are fairly close to making it possible, which I find fun (and GM dependent).

The interesting setting chatter may now resume.

huh, I did not know that, it is quite interesting.
by the way I couldn't find the bit where it talks about remaking a behemoth with a shaping action, do you remember where it talked about it? and possibly a keyword I could search for?

[meschlum]

but then you don't actually resurrect someone, you just prevent them from dying, which can be done far easier, defend other and a perfect parry of some-kind for instance.

Very true, except you're a Fair Folk with no perfects (and spawning 200+ inch tall homunculi to all defend other for you is silly). It is as close as I've got the Fair Folk to healing damage, though.

huh, I did not know that, it is quite interesting.
by the way I couldn't find the bit where it talks about remaking a behemoth with a shaping action, do you remember where it talked about it? and possibly a keyword I could search for?

Unshaped <Grace> Transformation, the charm just before Behemoth Forging Meditation in the book. It lets you repair damaged or destroyed artifacts (and turn old ones into new), and is faster with low dot things - such as 1-dot fey beasts. Plus, repairs are easier.

[SurlySeraph]

I found something interesting in MoEP: Sidereals. The Strength of the Mast resplendency multiplies a Sid's Strength + Athletics by 10 for how much she can lift. Everything that gives you a bonus on Feats of Strength adds directly to the Strength + Athletics total. You know where this is going.

5 Strength + 5 Athletics + 3 Specialties + 5 Virtue channel + 5 Cooperation + 2 Stunt + 2 Second Excellency, multiplied by 10, gives you a total of 270 on a Feat of Strength pretty easily.
Throwing an object takes a Strength + Athletics 5 higher than that needed to lift it, and you throw it Strength + Athletics yards. It does Strength + Athletics bashing damage, piercing.
I refuse to spend my free time doing a Taylor approximation to figure out how much weight a 265 Feat of Strength should let you lift from the table in the book, but that's got to be at least a small mountain.

But wait, there's more! The Spear has the Hero-Supporting Performance resplendency, which lets you take the highest number of successes someone going before you has had on an Athletics roll, or use the same Strength + Athletics total as the strongest person helping you lift!

I can only conclude that the Primordial War was full of Sidereal mountain-hurling teams, scattering Behemoths like bowling pins and surrounded by Earth Aspect groupies. If they don't appear in Dreams of the First Age, it's because the Solars were jealous.

I'm working on my poem for one SMA I'm working on and would like some feedback.
The Student's Sutra of Sensation: Once, there was a guardian maiden
Who was placed on the tallest mountain
In the tallest spire
And told to watch.
"For what?" she asked.
"You will know when you see it."
She saw it, and she knew
But there was no way down anymore
The Elder's Sutra of Sensation: except for a window.
On the way down, she said,
"Life is not what you see, but what you

Might want to end it with "but what you - " or "but what you" to make it clear that there wasn't a line cut off. Also, 7-8 pre-form but only 3 post-form Charms?

[golentan]

So... A Sidereal can wield Islebreaker is what I'm hearing.

[Kyeudo]

I found something interesting in MoEP: Sidereals. The Strength of the Mast resplendency multiplies a Sid's Strength + Athletics by 10 for how much she can lift. Everything that gives you a bonus on Feats of Strength adds directly to the Strength + Athletics total. You know where this is going.

5 Strength + 5 Athletics + 3 Specialties + 5 Virtue channel + 5 Cooperation + 2 Stunt + 2 Second Excellency, multiplied by 10, gives you a total of 270 on a Feat of Strength pretty easily.
Throwing an object takes a Strength + Athletics 5 higher than that needed to lift it, and you throw it Strength + Athletics yards. It does Strength + Athletics bashing damage, piercing.
I refuse to spend my free time doing a Taylor approximation to figure out how much weight a 265 Feat of Strength should let you lift from the table in the book, but that's got to be at least a small mountain.

But wait, there's more! The Spear has the Hero-Supporting Performance resplendency, which lets you take the highest number of successes someone going before you has had on an Athletics roll, or use the same Strength + Athletics total as the strongest person helping you lift!

I can only conclude that the Primordial War was full of Sidereal mountain-hurling teams, scattering Behemoths like bowling pins and surrounded by Earth Aspect groupies. If they don't appear in Dreams of the First Age, it's because the Solars were jealous.

That only really works if you are the strongest person present but are not alone. Strength 10+ is easy for a demon to get. As soon as a single such demon shows up, you are crushed beneath the mountain you were about to throw.

Now, if you want to throw large objects in combat, there are ways for Lunars and Solars to get fairly ridiculous Feat of Strength scores.
From a discussion on throwing a supertanker into orbit:

Spoiler

Show

A Full Moon Lunar with Strength 5, Athletics 5, Yeddim's Back Method and Tearing Claw Atemi and Lightning Flash Might Methodology Combod together and using his Anima power has a Feat of Strength score with a minimum of 30 in ordinary human form, 10 points higher than the "Lift a Yeddim, Punch a hole through a heavily armored fortress gate" line on the table. My calculator estimates that this means something in the area of 35,000 pounds. A starting Lunar can do this.

Now, if that Lunar has a Tyrant Lizard, Yeddim, or Mammoth for his Spirit Shape, he can achieve a minimum score of 56 for the purposes of Feats of Strength using the same combo of effects. My estimate of how much that can throw is 4,000,000 pounds, or 2000 tons. This is all, due to Lightning Flash Might Methodology, done as a single miscelaneous action, so roughly 5 seconds.

Now, that's not exactly throwing a supertanker into orbit, but then that's at Essence 3. An Essence 10 Lunar and the same Combo with the Second Strength Excellency added has a Feat of Strength Score of 81, which I estimate to mean a lift strength of 385,000,000 lbs or 192,500 tons.

Now, that allows you to throw the tanker. The trouble is throwing if far enough to get it above the atmostphere. Even if a Lunar comboed in Wind-Wings Carry Technique, he'd still need 450 motes to hurl it to a height of 62 miles, and Lunar Essence Pools top out at 160 motes total (Solar Essence pools top out at 190 motes total).

So, lets try a different tack. An Essence 10 Eclipse Caste Solar who has learned the Lunar Charms of the given combo can, through Strength Increasing Excercise and adding in Hill Hurling Might, easily reach a Feat of Strength Score of 85 (allowing him to throw up to 400,000 tons). Through Triple Distance Attack Technique, we can get the required motes for Wind-Wings Carry Technique down to just 15 (+2 for the cross-Exalt surchage).

(Note: The Solar could actually add an addtional 10 to his Feat of Strenght Score by adding the Second Athletics Excellency to the Combo, for a total throwing power of almost 5,000,000,000 lbs or 2,500,000 tons)

So, to throw a Supertanker into orbit, an Essence 10 Eclipse Caste Solar (Strength 10, Athletics 10) with Yeddim's Back Method, Increasing Strength Excercise, and a Combo of Tearing Claw Atemi, Lightning Flash Might Methodology, Wind-Wings Carry Technique, Hill-Hurling Might, and Triple-Distance Attack Technique is probably the minimum you'd use.

Essence cost to pull this off: 6 + 30 + 5 + 4 + 17 + 3 + 3 = 68 motes.
Cost to repeat = 68 - 36 = 32 motes.
This Solar can therefore throw 4 Supertankers into orbit in succession.

This is also using only Charms from the Lunar book and the Core book. Custom charms at high Essence should make this much easier than shown.

Might want to end it with "but what you - " or "but what you" to make it clear that there wasn't a line cut off. Also, 7-8 pre-form but only 3 post-form Charms?

First, I still don't like it. The point of the sutras in the setting is to convey hidden wisdom to those who undestand the sutras. A cheap joke seems to spoil that mistique. Yes, I realize that Charcoal March of Spiders has the itsy-bitsy spider for its student sutra, but that's meta-humor.

Second, there is precendent for having very few post form Charms. Take a look at Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style. It has only one Charm post-form and that is another form Charm.

[Xefas]

First, I still don't like it. The point of the sutras in the setting is to convey hidden wisdom to those who undestand the sutras. A cheap joke seems to spoil that mistique. Yes, I realize that Charcoal March of Spiders has the itsy-bitsy spider for its student sutra, but that's meta-humor.

I don't see it as a cheap joke. I don't know what her Martial Art is going to be about but, to me-

"Life is not what you see, but what you

-is basically daring the reader to find their own meaning for life, rather than having it spoon-fed to you by someone else. It's inferring that we must all find our own meaning that is right for us, because there is no single right answer; there's no way someone can finish that sentence for you. And if the Martial Art is not actually about that, then I'm going to look very silly.

And I actually like the jarring cut-off in that case.

[SurlySeraph]

A Sid *could* wield Islebreaker, but it wouldn't be a good idea because you get Paradox. If you absolutely must break an isle and know only one way how then sure, if you want Islebreaker as your primary weapon then no.

The team leader using Strength of the Mast can safely throw mountains until he's near 10 Paradox and gets 1 paradox die per use, so maybe 16 mountains thrown before taking a break to make the Pattern Spiders stop twitching. Incidentally, taking Crane Style up to the Form so he can recover Compassion channels in place of normal stunt awards would be a good idea, since channeling a virtue adds 5 to his unmultiplied pool; otherwise he'd run out of Virtue channels before he got to a dangerous level of Paradox, and so would have to throw smaller mountains. Man, Crane Style is awesome.
His assistants using Hero-Supporting Performance don't gain 'dox, so they can keep throwing using his Strength + Athletics until he stops using Strength of the Mast.

That only really works if you are the strongest person present but are not alone. Strength 10+ is easy for a demon to get. As soon as a single such demon shows up, you are crushed beneath the mountain you were about to throw.

"If someone in the Sidereal’s unit can do something, the Sidereal can, too. For the rest of the scene, the Sidereal can choose to accept the highest number of successes anyone going before her has rolled on a given Athletics-related roll. Likewise, she can carry her share, and has the (Strength + Athletics) total of the strongest person helping her lift." Enemies don't come into it.

Second, there is precendent for having very few post form Charms. Take a look at Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style. It has only one Charm post-form and that is another form Charm.

Or 11 post-form charms, if you start from its first form charm rather than the one named PAoC Form. I see your point, though.

And thanks for that Solar and Lunar post. A Cascade of Cutting Supertankers is a beautiful image.

[Kyeudo]

And thanks for that Solar and Lunar post. A Cascade of Cutting Supertankers is a beautiful image.

Use Mist on Water Attack instead. No one will notice that Jeff just got crushed by a 200,000 ton object for about a minute.

[Weimann]

And thanks for that Solar and Lunar post. A Cascade of Cutting Supertankers is a beautiful image.

Completely unrelated, but it reminded me of a thing I read about two Solars fighting a strong spirit. The problem they had was that while the Dawn could hit past the spirits DV, it wouldn't matter unless they totally destroyed it, which required Ghost Eating Technique, which the Twilight had. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to overcome the DV.

So how to deal with this? Well, the Dawn and his partner delayed their actions until they acted on the same tick. Then... Cascade of Cutting Twilight. That is, a rain of Solar Exalted, each and everyone capable of utterly destroying you with a touch, coming at you with the accuracy of the most capable warriors there is, as an undodgable attack.

That is beautiful.

[Primal Fury]

So... The Dawn threw the Twilight (as a Thrown weapon), and that allowed activation of Cascade of Cutting Terror? Is that about right?

[Weimann]

Yeah, that's how I understood it. Probably counts as an improvised weapon, but the stunt should more than justify it. Subject to ST approval, of course, so probably not a spammable tactic

[TheCountAlucard]

I can only conclude that the Primordial War was full of Sidereal mountain-hurling teams, scattering Behemoths like bowling pins and surrounded by Earth Aspect groupies.

Because the Sidereals clearly had time to get to Essence 10 before/during the Primordial War...

[Xefas]

Because the Sidereals clearly had time to get to Essence 10 before/during the Primordial War...

I don't think Surly's method required Essence 10. Though, didn't Porkchop Crackerjack get pretty close anyway?