General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

[Xefas]

Once you cease to be human, you cease to be interesting as a character.

I disagree, and I think you're making a hasty, sweeping generalization.

There is nothing else that matters but the soul in Exalted for classification as a human. Look at the beastmen, for example. They are still human, even though they might have eight legs, no head and tentacles for arms. As long as they have a hun soul and a po soul attached together, they are human. There are other beings that look human, act human and otherwise function as human, but are not human because they do not have the right soul.

The limits cast aside by Green Sun Princes are not that of humanity, it's that of being a Primordial. It's like having the best hardware of the world but being limited to DOS for your computing needs. Heretical-keyworded Charms just allow you to upgrade your operating system. Solars already come packaged with the best hardware and operating system. What are you gonna transcend to?

Yes. You said "human". I said "human". We meant different things. It's called arguing semantics.

Solars could theoretically transcend in the same way that a computer could, theoretically, one day build a better computer than themselves. And then that computer could do the same. And so on. It's a classic sci-fi thing.

[Drascin]

You've got part of your answer right there. I mean, besides the comments on the writers. In 1e, all defenses were rolled - so Imposition of Law helped you attack and defend. Plus, if your GM allowed the winner of an attack / defend rolloff to hit (i.e. counterattack if the defender), things got very scary very fast.

IoL only gives one net success, so it's mostly ownership of a Big Stick that gives massive combat advantage. If you want protection from damage, look at the Bastion of the Self (Heart) charm - same stunt vulnerable immunity, applies to all pain coming your way.

Of course, because the Exalted writers Do Not Approve of the Fair Folk (it seems), Bastion of the Self is now ruled to fail if the attacker uses an Excellency - so if you just put 1 mote into attacking, a Charm that otherwise makes you immune to terminal velocity impacts with a giant propeller will fail.

Ahem. Reining in the rant.

There are a few areas in 2e where opposed rolls occur, hence IoL might inherit a Flaw of Invulnerability that way. Specifically, Picking Pockets requires an opposed roll, so IoL means automatic theft occurs, even on the most potent Exalts and gods. It's really borderline and friendly reading of the text, I will grant.

Kind of reading what isn't there, to be honest. A pity, because the Charm would be really cool otherwise. But, fact is, says nothing about opposed rolls - it says "attacks". Does stealing from someone count as an attack?

That said, there are Specialties in Dodge which can technically be augmented by IoL, so while I wouldn't allow a single iteration of IoL to provide 'perfect' attacks and parries, I'd allow it to provide one or the other.

...but specialties in Dodge from IoL would give a single success - that is, a +1DV - because it's not an attack.

And inward facing oneiromancies mean that you have as many versions of IoL running as you want, anyway.

Now that's true. Still, sad that such a defining Charm is so utterly unworthy of being purchased with actual XP and relegated to an artifact-only power.

[The Rose Dragon]

That's because the raksha artifacts are silly. Few Charms are worth taking on their own, because their artifacts give them so much more power and flexibility.

[Kyeudo]

I disagree, and I think you're making a hasty, sweeping generalization.

Not really. The things that make us care about a character is their hopes and dreams, their feelings and drives. If you strip away everything that makes a character human, you strip away all that makes your Green Sun Prince different from a monster in a horror movie. It wants what it wants because it is that thing's nature to want whatever it is that it wants, not because it chose to want it. All the remains is whether to destroy the monster or not.

[Xefas]

Not really. The things that make us care about a character is their hopes and dreams, their feelings and drives. If you strip away everything that makes a character human, you strip away all that makes your Green Sun Prince different from a monster in a horror movie. It wants what it wants because it is that thing's nature to want whatever it is that it wants, not because it chose to want it. All the remains is whether to destroy the monster or not.

I disagree. Though this may be another case of us using different terms for "human".

I think Doctor Manhattan was an interesting character. I also don't think he was human in any way. If you think he had even a tiny bit of humanity left, then we're operating under different definitions, and so the argument is pointless.

[The Rose Dragon]

Doctor Manhattan himself would disagree. After all, he had exactly the same amount and distribution of molecules as a human. There is no intrinsic difference between him and any other human. Sure, he lost his intrinsic field for a while, but he got it back. Why would he be less human than you in any way that matters?

Also, a pantsless body contains the same amount of molecules as one with pants, Nite Owl. Observe.

[Jokasti]

Are Raksha human? Do you not think Raksha can be interesting characters?

[The Rose Dragon]

Are Raksha human? Do you not think Raksha can be interesting characters?

Personally, no, and no.

[Xefas]

Doctor Manhattan himself would disagree. After all, he had exactly the same amount and distribution of molecules as a human. There is no intrinsic difference between him and any other human. Sure, he lost his intrinsic field for a while, but he got it back. Why would he be less human than you in any way that matters?

If he ever made that distinction, I would say that it reinforces his transhumanism, not his humanity.

[The Rose Dragon]

If he ever made that distinction, I would say that it reinforces his transhumanism, not his humanity.

See, that's you being racist.

((I'm kidding. Please don't shoot me.))

But honestly, you are arguing from an OOC perspective, while I'm arguing from an IC perspective. That is pretty much all the difference. You, the real world person you are, believe there is a philosophical debate to be had in the nature of humanity. There is no such thing in Exalted. Human means capable of Exalting, because it has the right hun and po soul. That's it.

[Weimann]

Quickie question: does anyone have a link to the alternative Lunar creation rules handy? The ones that an author leaked in a chat log or something?

In other news: the official Exalted Wiki sucks.

[Xefas]

But honestly, you are arguing from an OOC perspective, while I'm arguing from an IC perspective. That is pretty much all the difference. You, the real world person you are, believe there is a philosophical debate to be had in the nature of humanity. There is no such thing in Exalted. Human means capable of Exalting, because it has the right hun and po soul. That's it.

Yes, I acknowledged that, and then I amended my post to be more precise in my meaning.

Quickie question: does anyone have a link to the alternative Lunar creation rules handy? The ones that an author leaked in a chat log or something?

In other news: the official Exalted Wiki sucks.

Here it is. It's also linked to in the Exalted Character Repository!

[Drascin]

That's because the raksha artifacts are silly. Few Charms are worth taking on their own, because their artifacts give them so much more power and flexibility.

You say "silly", I say "interesting". I know that it goes against the average in Exalted, but I can deal with the fact that you can make some downright broken combinations (and boy, can you) if in exchange I get guidelines for building artifacts and artifact-creatures that actually work and have interesting effects, instead of eyeballing rough guesstimates off the (horribly unbalanced and unequal) artifacts in Core and groveling to the ST so he allows them .

[Weimann]

Thanks :) I might pop into the repository as well.

[meschlum]

Kind of reading what isn't there, to be honest. A pity, because the Charm would be really cool otherwise. But, fact is, says nothing about opposed rolls - it says "attacks". Does stealing from someone count as an attack?

I'm trying to give the writers some credit. The Charm text gives you an automatic success no matter what the penalties are. When stealing something, you need more successes than your target. Thus...

But yes, it's really pushing the Flaw of Invulnerability language to the limit.

Technically, you could use IoL with a specialty in noticing pickpockets. This would gran you automatic success at not being robbed, with the Flaw of Invulnerability that anyone describing how they want to rob you (or using Charms to do it) would succeed.

...but specialties in Dodge from IoL would give a single success - that is, a +1DV - because it's not an attack.

Nope. It's never rolled, so it would give you nothing. If it were rolled, you'd get one net success over the person attacking you - no matter how many onslaught penalties, action penalties, etc. you were under. Again, 1e inheritance.

Now that's true. Still, sad that such a defining Charm is so utterly unworthy of being purchased with actual XP and relegated to an artifact-only power.

Even if it were worth taking with xp, the xp version costs 10 motes, 1 willpower to activate. And those motes are committed.

A 1-dot inward facing Oneiromancy with 3 iterations of IoL costs 3 committed motes, and lasts for 1 season. Plus, you can have your retinue commit the motes.

If the IoL charm were more versatile (granting something like IoL in multiple specialties when taken as a charm) it might be worthwhile. But the Exalted writers appear to hate the Fair Folk, and have instead opted to make IoL weaker and weaker over the iterations. One upon a time, IoL could be used for things like fertility, drawing the attention of the Realm, making emperors... now it's Attribute + Ability + Specialty, fails if an Excellency is used, no residual benefits from being almost perfect even in the face of magic...

Must restrain rant.


Edited to add:

Ranting about how things were better before, or how things don't work, isn't productive. Therefore, I'll drop the topic, but first! Some uses for IoL:

- Perform a heart - brain - liver transplant from an ailing Dragonblood into a songbird. Using a sharpened rock and bits of straw for sutures. Complete success! This is based on the surgery rules, such as they are.

- Call on the Unconquered Sun for help while being tortured in the Underworld, fervently reciting the Yozi creed and offering a handful of offal as a gift. Automatic success on a prayer roll.

- Win a drinking contest where you're tossing back a gallon of Yozi venom for each glass of weak beer your opponents chug.


If you want to have a perfect defense, don't use IoL. Use Curse of Definition instead, in a 3-dot Oneiromancy. Specifically, set the Curse to Dex + Melee + Specialty (hitting me), and done! Of course, you're vulnerable to Martial Arts and missiles, but that's nothing more Oneiromancy can't help.

[Jokasti]

HeyguysguesswhatHOMEBREW!

This time I want to make an SMA designed to let the user rapidly and repetedly phase into/out of Elsewhere (Or some other dimension, whatever has to be done to get non-fiddly fluff) for actions such as one-on-one forced dueling or teleportation flurry attacks. Think about it. Perfect Dodges that work because, instead of avoiding an attack, you are simply not there, and crap like that. Thoughts? (Though I'll probably only work on this, and that Infernal style I had in the works, once I have a better grasp of the game.)

Also, can someone please fill in for ST here? I've already been through several games I've either failed to get into or have simply failed to start, and I'm getting sick of it. I have, so far, never played a single game of Exalted. It's irritating me to no end.

Here's the link.

[SurlySeraph]

@^: I've been working on homebrewing an SMA about the concept of connection, and I suddenly feel that the need for mine has been obviated.

That style is good, is what I mean.

[DragonSinged]

It occurs to me (and I'm sure most of you have had this thought before, but I feel like sharing anyways) that writing for Exalted must be fairly difficult at times, based on the intentional lack of balance in the system.

In other games, at least an attempt is made at pretending that different classes or whatever are, ah... "balanced". Obviously, anyone with any experience with D&D knows that, in the end, a Wizard is more powerful than a Fighter (without weird wealth shenanigans or something), but you know, it's not exactly pointed out in the books anywhere.

In Exalted, on the other hand, you are supposed to know that, if the two being compared have equal experience, a Solar is probably going to be more powerful than a Terrestrial, for example. Or, as I understand it, anything else, for that matter.


But everyone has their favorite, uh... thing. I mean, look at the tables that we're using in this very thread, there are spots for favorite type of character to play and whatnot. Obviously it's not just the players that have their favorite Exalt type, the authors have got to have their favorites as well...
And I imagine that it must be really hard to write for, say, the Fair Folk, and intentionally limit them so that they will be weaker than Solars (or whatever).
I mean, I know that if the Fair Folk were my favorite, uh.. creature? and I had to write for them, then I'd probably do a lot of reading to make sure that I knew everything about them that existed already... and after doing all that reading I'd probably be pretty attached to them, and it would probably be pretty difficult not to look at Solar charms and think, "Why can't the Fair Folk have nice things, too?"
Of course, this is all just an example, as I really don't know anything about the Fair Folk, and when people get to talking about oneiromancies and things like that, I can see the words, but I don't know what they mean. (I try to follow along anyways, but that's just my nature.)

Anyways, yeah. It's gotta be hard writing intentionally unbalanced material is my point, I guess.

[Lix Lorn]

The SYSTEM may not be balanced, but each charmset should be balanced internally.

Emphasis on should.

[Weimann]

Anyways, yeah. It's gotta be hard writing intentionally unbalanced material is my point, I guess.

Well, it depends on how they are balanced. I quite agree that it's really hard to balance Exalted stuff, both with and without bias of the kind you mention.

However, in D&D you balance stuff to be approximately equally powerful. In Exalted you don't. That doesn't mean it's "intentionally unbalanced", it just means that it's balanced differently.

[Jokasti]

Supposedly, the guy who wrote the Wizard and Sorcerer 3.5 classes thought Vancian casting was supposed to be better. That's why Wizards are better than Sorcerers at any given level- they were written that way.
Solars whole gig is that they are the best- the pinnacle- in equal situations, a Solar WILL be better because they're supposed to be, not because people like Solars better.
Fair Folk can have nice things- they get all that stuff that they are naturally great at, I think they're Virtue based? I haven't bothered reading GWM. Thing is, if an equal Solar and Fae go at it at something they both could do, the Solar will win- that's what Solars do.

[Sanguine]

Supposedly, the guy who wrote the Wizard and Sorcerer 3.5 classes thought Vancian casting was supposed to be better. That's why Wizards are better than Sorcerers at any given level- they were written that way.
Solars whole gig is that they are the best- the pinnacle- in equal situations, a Solar WILL be better because they're supposed to be, not because people like Solars better.
Fair Folk can have nice things- they get all that stuff that they are naturally great at, I think they're Virtue based? I haven't bothered reading GWM. Thing is, if an equal Solar and Fae go at it at something they both could do, the Solar will win- that's what Solars do.

Actually their Charms are based on traits that only they have.(Unless they use their Charms to give them to a non-Raksha)

[DragonSinged]

Well, it depends on how they are balanced. I quite agree that it's really hard to balance Exalted stuff, both with and without bias of the kind you mention.

However, in D&D you balance stuff to be approximately equally powerful. In Exalted you don't. That doesn't mean it's "intentionally unbalanced", it just means that it's balanced differently.

Erm, "balanced differently" sounds like a different way of saying "unbalanced" to me. If you have a set of scales, and both scales are in the middle, then they are balanced. If one side is heavier than the other, they are unbalanced. If you did that intentionally, then, yes, they are, uh.. "balanced differently." They are also "unbalanced" in that they are not balanced.

Unbalanced does not equal bad. I'm not saying that there's a problem with the balance in Exalted. I'm not saying there isn't, either. Just that intentionally writing things that can be PCs to intentionally be weaker than other things that can also be PCs must be tough.

Solars whole gig is that they are the best- the pinnacle- in equal situations, a Solar WILL be better because they're supposed to be, not because people like Solars better.
Fair Folk can have nice things- they get all that stuff that they are naturally great at, I think they're Virtue based? I haven't bothered reading GWM. Thing is, if an equal Solar and Fae go at it at something they both could do, the Solar will win- that's what Solars do.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that Solars were stronger because someone liked them better. I know that Solars are stronger because Solars are supposed to be stronger. That's actually fairly central to what I was bringing up.
What I meant to imply is that it must be tempting at times to write things for people other than Solars, things that will make those, I don't know, Fair Folk or Sidereals or whatever at least equally as strong as Solars. And it must be tough reining in those temptations, and being like, "No, if I release this charm for this dude who isn't a Solar, then he might have a pretty good chance of kicking a Solar's ass." or.. whatever.

Maybe I'm losing my point, or not getting across what I mean. I just thought it was an interesting thought, I guess - That the writers for Exalted face somewhat unique challenges.

[Xefas]

Some people like the scrappy underdog.

[Kyeudo]

Are Raksha human? Do you not think Raksha can be interesting characters?

Raksha can vary from mostly uninteresting to very interesting, depending on how they aproach things. To use some Star Trek references, they can be like Lore, pretty much out to smash something on a whim, or they can be like Data, looking to be something more than what they are made out of. One is a one-shot villian, the other a character to watch for years.

[Drascin]

Some people like the scrappy underdog.

Well, Scrappy in trope-talk are characters that no-one likes, so I assume you meant it as in rag-tag and such?

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that Solars were stronger because someone liked them better. I know that Solars are stronger because Solars are supposed to be stronger. That's actually fairly central to what I was bringing up.
What I meant to imply is that it must be tempting at times to write things for people other than Solars, things that will make those, I don't know, Fair Folk or Sidereals or whatever at least equally as strong as Solars. And it must be tough reining in those temptations, and being like, "No, if I release this charm for this dude who isn't a Solar, then he might have a pretty good chance of kicking a Solar's ass." or.. whatever.

Maybe I'm losing my point, or not getting across what I mean. I just thought it was an interesting thought, I guess - That the writers for Exalted face somewhat unique challenges.

Indeed. I also figure that the fact the Core Solar Charmset sucks must be a serious problem with that - we can't make Charms for any splat that are so much as equal, never mind better, as the Solar ones in the Core book inside their function. But the Solar Charms in the core vary from good to "this is so useless you'd have to be drunk to purchase it" - and writers are forced to balance on the second ones, too, making Charms even worse because otherwise the splat would be equal to Solars at something. This is really very limiting.

Needless to say, this leads to much feeling of uselessness among the other splats in these areas .

[Kris Strife]

Well, Scrappy in trope-talk are characters that no-one likes, so I assume you meant it as in rag-tag and such?

scrap·py/ˈskrapē/Adjective
1. Consisting of disorganized, untidy, or incomplete parts.
2. Determined, argumentative, or pugnacious.

In this case, the second definition.

Also: I would be interested in playing KH Exalted.

[Aether]

scrap·py/ˈskrapē/Adjective
1. Consisting of disorganized, untidy, or incomplete parts.
2. Determined, argumentative, or pugnacious.

In this case, the second definition.

He meant that, when he read "scrappy underdog", his mind went to TVTropes. In TVTropes, underdog has a similar meaning to what it usually means.

A TVTropes scrappy, however, is an "unlikeable character, named after Scrappy Doo."

Thus, in "trope-talk" a "scrappy" "underdog" would be an underpowered character who was victorious and extremely unlikeable. Hence why he asked for clarification.

[Kris Strife]

He meant that, when he read "scrappy underdog", his mind went to TVTropes. In TVTropes, underdog has a similar meaning to what it usually means.

A TVTropes scrappy, however, is an "unlikeable character, named after Scrappy Doo."

Thus, in "trope-talk" a "scrappy" "underdog" would be an underpowered character who was victorious and extremely unlikeable. Hence why he asked for clarification.

I think this link will cover that.

[Weimann]

Erm, "balanced differently" sounds like a different way of saying "unbalanced" to me. If you have a set of scales, and both scales are in the middle, then they are balanced. If one side is heavier than the other, they are unbalanced. If you did that intentionally, then, yes, they are, uh.. "balanced differently." They are also "unbalanced" in that they are not balanced

Unbalanced does not equal bad. I'm not saying that there's a problem with the balance in Exalted. I'm not saying there isn't, either. Just that intentionally writing things that can be PCs to intentionally be weaker than other things that can also be PCs must be tough.

We obviously have different ideas on what "balance" means. However, I can agree with that I think it's very hard to properly balance Exalted