General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

[golentan]

Why would Alchemicals need Celestial Battle Armor? They ARE Celestial Battle Armor!

Yo, dawg, we heard you like armor so we put armor in your armor so you can tank while you tank...

Seriously though, I wholeheartedly support Adamant and Jade battle armors.

[The Rose Dragon]

Why would Alchemicals need Celestial Battle Armor? They ARE Celestial Battle Armor!

No, they are synthetic people. Even a metropolis or a patropolis is still fundamentally human, despite the massive divergence from the human body plan and psychology. And their bodies in the Champion form are so woefully fragile and incapable without Charms. The problem is, then, that Charms are very inefficient compared to Celestial Battle Armor. After all, the same armor can be used by dozens of Champions, even several different Champions at the same generation, if the state so approves. And if a current user of the armor dies in battle, the armor can be recovered and passed on to another. The Charms, on the other hand, are specific to a single Exalt, and will need to be reconstructed with each Alchemical. Clarity demands that redundant Charms not be created when a cheaper and more efficient alternate exists.

[Tavar]

So, I got my hands on the Dragonblooded book, and might be making one for a game. But, I haven't had much time to look over the book. So, is there anything one should know before making a DB? Traps in the system, or the like?

[Kyeudo]

So, I got my hands on the Dragonblooded book, and might be making one for a game. But, I haven't had much time to look over the book. So, is there anything one should know before making a DB? Traps in the system, or the like?

Practically every Charm has been Errata'd, sometimes beyond recognition.

[The Rose Dragon]

So, I got my hands on the Dragonblooded book, and might be making one for a game. But, I haven't had much time to look over the book. So, is there anything one should know before making a DB? Traps in the system, or the like?

Their Charm trees are badly organized, and badly written. The errata fixes some of the problems, but not all of them. On the other hand, while their Charm trees are ability based, they do have Charms where elemental association is more important than the ability association, such as a defensive Charm in Thrown and an acrobatic Charm in Stealth.

[Indon]

You wouldn't have to do this, necessarily. Exalted is not 100% transparent. There are some game mechanics with no in-setting equivalent. Health Levels, for instance. Health Levels are already an abstraction with no in-setting equivalent. If we abstracted them further, it would not change the setting at all.

In fact, I think abstracting them in the correct way would actually make the system reflect the setting more so.

Certainly.

But a lot of concepts people have problems with are ones that aren't abstract at all, like the aforementioned perfects. You essentially describe the point I've been trying to make all this time later in your post, though, so it's all good.

So? Well, so, the problem is fundamentally unsolvable. The best you can do is fix it for some people.

That aspect of the system works for some people already.

That subset of people are those GMs who derive a Creation from source materials but ultimately make it their own, rather than trying to stick to every RAW reference.

Using that paradigm, inconsistency can easily enrich the setting by providing GMs with multiple options on how to shape the story's 'backbone' to match the mechanics and concepts - though it can be tricky to know what material you need to keep an eye on as a GM to maintain consistency.

That, to me, is Exalted. The current mechanics don't give me that. They give me a game that reward optimization and system mastery over roleplaying a shunned God-King, where it takes 5 hours to make a reasonably experienced character whereas I could be spending that time raiding decrepit manses and fighting demons, where artifacts range from stupidly useless to stupidly overpowered, and absolutely no ones charm set functions as advertised.

I tell you what, I have never ran or played in a game of Exalted like this - except for the character creation part, which I encourage.

Edit:

And what about Adamant Caste Alchemicals - do they not deserve an Adamant Celestial Battle Armor of their own?

I thought Adamant wasn't a Magical Material because it's indigenous to Malfeas, and resonates with the now-exiled Yozis?

You could make artifacts with it, but I'm pretty sure they'd have to be Malfean ones.

[Tavar]

I think that's Virtol, or what ever it's called. Adamant is found in creation, though it's not too common. It's somewhat more common in Autobot, as the core is comprised completely of it.

[golentan]

Yeah. Adamant is most emphatically NOT malfean. Malfeas uses Vitriol (which is an Element, not a Magical Material), and when need be Malfean Brass, Malfean Iron, or Corrupted (by the use of vitriol) magical materials in their artifacts.

Edit: Or living and tortured demon souls. Those are fun too.

[Drascin]

So, four out of the Five Magical Materials have Celestial Battle Armor made out of it. What about the other two (yes, despite the name, there are six materials within the Five Magical Materials now)? Originally, there was no jade Celestial Battle Armor, since Terrestrials could not attune to Celestial Battle Armors anyway, but what about Jade Caste Alchemicals? And what about Adamant Caste Alchemicals - do they not deserve an Adamant Celestial Battle Armor of their own?

In a game I was, my ST patched the Jade issue by creating a couple new Jade powers - don't remember the second, because I didn't pick it in the end, but one was Elemental Panoply, which basically let you pick and choose any two of the effects in Immaculate Dragon armor as one effect.

For adamant, I got nothing.

I tell you what, I have never ran or played in a game of Exalted like this - except for the character creation part, which I encourage.

To be honest, I have to back up Xefas on this. Whenever I play Exalted, given I don't have much system mastery, I routinely keep getting that feeling that my character is only still alive through luck and plot. There's very little feeling of god-kingness and a lot of feeling of halfcompetent-wimpness, really

[Reynard]

CBA should probably be 4-dot anyway, with the possible exception of the Oblivion's Panoply set up. It's certainly not that much better than the Immaculate Dragon armors to warrant another dot. Some might even say it was worse than the jade armours in some respects.

--

Earlier in this thread, I saw someone suggesting more charm activations, D&D style. So, rather than having "Charm use: y/n" you have Swift-action, Move-action, etc-action charms.

This sounds like a pretty good idea to my ears, and I may be hashing out some firmer rules (and suggestions for converting existing charms.)

[horngeek]

Eh... that only really works if you switch from a tick-based system to a turn-based system.

And to be honest? I like the tick-based system. It's different, and it makes Exalted work in terms of tactics- but time-based, not positioning-based.

[Lix Lorn]

I quite like the tick system. It gives a sense of some things actually being fast way better than d&d.

[Drascin]

I quite like the tick system. It gives a sense of some things actually being fast way better than d&d.

I dunno. Fights theorethically last twelve seconds, give or take, if ticks are taken literally, but I've never seen a fight were stunts wouldn't inevitably make it seem much longer - no matter what mechanics say, you can't backflip, bounce on a wall, grab the candelabra, swing round twice, and smash someone's face with the inertia... in three-four seconds, which is what the Speed of the average attack. Unless you're doing it so fast nobody's seen you do it anyway, which takes off the whole point of it . Especially since, actually, it would seem you do it just in a single second, because you can move again from your opponent freely in any other ticks than your action one.

And then there's Rate. Apparently it's how many times you can hit with a weapon in a second? Because, again, you can get away soon as your action tick is over. Then after hitting five times in a single second, you have to wait for a few seconds, while your weapon repositions or something, I suppose.

With such redundancy and weirdness, it's hard to imagine the scenes in your head. Really, the whole Tick/Rate system kind of needs a cleanup.

Anyway, to the actual thing I wanted to talk about... anyone have any idea of what Lunar Intelligence Charms are supposed to do, niche-wise? I'm trying to make some custom stuff because poor No Moons get the least Charms of any Caste ever, even less that are actually usable in your average game (Form-Fixing is important for the setting, but doesn't actually do anything for a PC. Harmony with Reality is either useless or broken as hell depending on whether the ST allows Wyld Questing. Predator is Prey doesn't actually do anything mechanically. Seriously, reread it. A couple Intelligence charms are basically useless in any campaign that doesn't heavily feature the Fair Folk, and are underweming even then. And so on.). But while Perception Charms are easy and Wits seem to be primarily about reaction speed and dimensional ****ery, which is enough to imagine some stuff... I just don't know what to put into Intelligence. At least, what to put into intelligence that isn't "Solar Ability Charm, but sucking a lot", which seems to be kind of a standard in the Lunar charmset...

I've been making an Illusion tree, since No Moons are supposed to be tricky, indirect bastards (you get that Caste through beating trials through lateral thinking and indirect action), but as the mechanics grow, I get the feeling that people are going to scream at me to put them into Manipulation instead. So, maybe mutation stuff?

[Tavar]

A tick being one second is at a bare minimum. Generally, if you're doing more stuff, it's actually longer than that.

As for rate and speed, I always viewed it as part of the abstraction necessary in any system. You're still fighting back and forth, but when it's not your action you haven't managed to set up the right opportunities to actually wound the other guy.

[Indon]

I think that's Virtol, or what ever it's called. Adamant is found in creation, though it's not too common. It's somewhat more common in Autobot, as the core is comprised completely of it.

Ah. I suppose that makes sense, since Autochthon is still a full primordial, and so's Gaia, so even elements associated with Primordials could still be hanging around Creation.

Still, Adamant seems to me to resonate with Primordial essence, and, well, the closest thing to a Primordial-associated Exalt as far as I'd figure is an Alchemical of any caste.

Edit: What I'm getting at is that Adamant Battle Armor should be wildly distinct from the Exalts-designed-to-kill-Primordials battle armor. Something oriented more towards utility than sheer beatemupness.

Perhaps... Wyld/shaping resistance, active fate manipulation tools (so you could use it to defend or attack, or for other things, for a more versatile albeit less efficient implementation)... and I'll have to look up the other Celestial Battle Armor effects later so I can conjecture Adamant equivalents.

To be honest, I have to back up Xefas on this. Whenever I play Exalted, given I don't have much system mastery, I routinely keep getting that feeling that my character is only still alive through luck and plot. There's very little feeling of god-kingness and a lot of feeling of halfcompetent-wimpness, really

Maybe it's a question of approach - what sort of thing goes on in the games you're in?

Eh... that only really works if you switch from a tick-based system to a turn-based system.

Hmm. Maybe not - you could use something like that to make a more sophisticated version of the Stunt system, with 'lesser', more easily-activated stunts and 'greater', more powerful ones, for instance.

And Drascin, I can't think of anything offhand driven by pure intelligence in the Exalted system - maybe some artifact crafting roll difficulties?

[SurlySeraph]

@Drascin: Given No Moons' prophecy and behind-the-scenes themes, there seem to be some good unfilled possibilities for Intelligence charms.

I hesitate to say "Lunar Astrology," but it seems weird to me that there's so much emphasis on how the No Moons use astrology to track down newly exalted Lunars and they don't seem to have much that motivates that. A Charm that lets you near-instantly complete a thaumaturgical procedure if you succeed at the roll, but increases the risk of botching if you fail, is an idea; a No Moon burning some incense, glancing up at the sky, and immediately saying "37 miles northeast, skinny blonde kid, he Exalted near a river" seems thematic to me.

As a corollary to the "mind-shapeshifting" thoughts earlier in the thread, something that lets you shuffle around what thaumaturgy you can do would be an idea. Maybe say that you can only switch Procedures around within the same art but can switch Degrees between art, so buying a couple procedures doesn't mean instantly being able to do all thaumaturgy ever.

More boringly, something that lets you instantly figure out local customs and abide by them, instantly figure out how locals expect a particular kind of individual to act so you can disguise yourself more effectively and know just what you can get away with, etc.

Eh... that only really works if you switch from a tick-based system to a turn-based system.

And to be honest? I like the tick-based system. It's different, and it makes Exalted work in terms of tactics- but time-based, not positioning-based.

Why so? Activate a Charm on your main action, maybe activate a movement-related Charm as part of your free movement, activate a reflexive charm when someone attacks you. That's pretty close to standard, move, and swift/ immediate actions.
Now, I don't think giving a free movement-related Charm activation as part of your move is a good idea, since the system doesn't assume that that's a thing and you'd have to go through the books adding a new [Movement] keyword or something, but it's a way to add DnD-like actions within the tick-based context.

Continuing on system-rebuild thoughts from there, we could get rid of Rate and make Speed the only determinant of a weapon's speed. It would require plenty of playtesting and adjusting weapons' Speed values, possibly increasing the Speed of all actions to allow for meaningful variety within weapons. And it'd require a lot of work to keep things that reduce Speed from being even more monstrously awesome.

[Indon]

Continuing on system-rebuild thoughts from there, we could get rid of Rate and make Speed the only determinant of a weapon's speed. It would require plenty of playtesting and adjusting weapons' Speed values, possibly increasing the Speed of all actions to allow for meaningful variety within weapons. And it'd require a lot of work to keep things that reduce Speed from being even more monstrously awesome.

Alternately, you could conform all Speed values for attacks (say, all attacks at speed 5), and make Speed instead modify Rate, so a Speed 6 weapon has a -1 to its' base Rate, for instance, and a Speed 3 weapon has a +2.

Now speed increasers are kinda meh at best, because what they do is make your rate further increase.

Edit: And a thaumaturgical focus for some Lunar charms has a lot of potential, what with its' usefulness in nation-building and other mortaly things.

[Urpriest]

Predator is Prey doesn't actually do anything mechanically. Seriously, reread it.

I just reread the charm, and I can't see this. Care to explain?

[golentan]

I just reread the charm, and I can't see this. Care to explain?

Yeah... It's a very good "Muahaha" charm to use on a foe, particularly because it's not shaping. Dice penalties, defense penalties, valor check, and it inflicts limitations on their charms and actions leap out as mechanical effects.

Actually... What happens to a DB using Sense Riding technique on a target of a lunar's Predator is Prey mirror? I think that the Lunar usurps the Dragonblood's sight, but the terrestrial can break the link at will?

[Tavar]

Dragon-blooded need to make a successful Martial Arts check to activate form charms. No difficulty listed, so that means it sets to difficulty 0(so 1 success is a pass, right)?

[golentan]

Dragon-blooded need to make a successful Martial Arts check to activate form charms. No difficulty listed, so that means it sets to difficulty 0(so 1 success is a pass, right)?

1 success is a pass, yes, IIRC. Though it's only for Celestial level form charms that they need to make the roll.

[Kyeudo]

Continuing on system-rebuild thoughts from there, we could get rid of Rate and make Speed the only determinant of a weapon's speed. It would require plenty of playtesting and adjusting weapons' Speed values, possibly increasing the Speed of all actions to allow for meaningful variety within weapons. And it'd require a lot of work to keep things that reduce Speed from being even more monstrously awesome.

I actually like having Flurries, as it provides most of what little depth the basic combat mechanics actually contain. Deciding when and how many attacks to flurry is almost your only real choice in combat.

[The Rose Dragon]

Dragon-blooded need to make a successful Martial Arts check to activate form charms. No difficulty listed, so that means it sets to difficulty 0(so 1 success is a pass, right)?

Celestial Martial Styles' Form Charms, and no, it is Difficulty 1 (which still means 1 success is all that's necessary). There are no Difficulty 0 actions in Exalted that are rolled.

[Weimann]

Question: any one else getting "Error 503. The service is unavailable." when they try to go to the White Wolf forum, or is it just my connection that's being particularly bad today?

I think I even got some 404 errors

[Tavar]

Is there a firm relationship between Bonus Points and XP? Even within a splat?

[Indon]

Is there a firm relationship between Bonus Points and XP? Even within a splat?

Scroll of Heroes suggests a 1 bonus point to 2 XP conversion for merits and flaws gained in play, if an ST chooses to go that route.

There may also be a similar suggestion for backgrounds gained/lost, I'm not sure what the conversion factor there is.

[SurlySeraph]

Nope! The large power disparities you can get depending on how you spend your BP (i.e., it's more efficient to raise as many things as possible to 5 at the start and become well-rounded later) are one of the more annoying bits of Exalted character creation.

[Lix Lorn]

The guideline I know of is that a BP is worth about 3exp. That's the rate for backgrounds. This makes charms way better with exp (3 or 4bp/8exp), and high abilities far better with BP.
(for a fourth dot, 1bp or 5/6exp)

[Tavar]

Ah. Trying to decide what to spend my 18 bonus points and 40 xp on for a game, and I would like to raise my DB's essence to 3 pre-game. It's 10 BP or 20 xp, so I'm trying to decide which is more valuable.


Also, the scene in the back of the MoEP:DB between The Roseblack and her grandfather, is there an official/semi official destination for her orders? Or is it another of those whatever the ST wants?

[Kyeudo]

Ah. Trying to decide what to spend my 18 bonus points and 40 xp on for a game, and I would like to raise my DB's essence to 3 pre-game. It's 10 BP or 20 xp, so I'm trying to decide which is more valuable.

10 BP is more valuble, as you can stretch it far further than 20 XP. If you spend it to increase Favored Abilities rated at least at 2, each BP is at least 3 XP and possibly as much as 7 XP. Willpower and Virtues are similarly better places to sink your BP than into Essence.