General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

[TheCountAlucard]

--Lunars have to have some element of survival

Lunars are also themed toward protection, IIRC.

[The Rose Dragon]

Lunars are also themed toward protection, IIRC.

...Lunars have a theme?

[Kylarra]

...Lunars have a theme?

Silver solars is a theme.

[Tavar]

...Lunars have a theme?

They have several themes. It's just none of them are big enough/integrated enough to really sell them as a unique brand of Exalt.

[Jokasti]

Yeah, Lunars need a new book. So do Sidereals, Abyssals, Infernals, Dragon-Blooded, Alchemicals, and Solars.

[Tavar]

Okay, this isn't about the average mortal. But, what would a second age scholar with about 4 dots in lore, 3 in occult, with schooling in Lookshy, know about the Yozi/primordials? Anything?

[SurlySeraph]

...Lunars have a theme?

Mostly protection and versatility. Also survivalism, evolution (whether Lamarckian in which you change yourself into something perfectly adapted for solving the problem you face, or natural selection in which the weak people in your model ecosystem-society die off until it's full of badasses), shapeshifting, being an outsider to society, being able to adapt to any society and belong anywhere, emulating nature in general and animals in particular, savage beast (Full Moon)/ trickster (Changing Moon)/ wise old nature guy (guess) archetypes.

And being a Solar's bodyguard, drinking buddy, and/or boyfriend.

And said Solar's moral guide, I guess, given the stuff about how Lunar mates are the fastest way to redeem Abyssals and GSPs. That didn't seem to remotely work out in anything I've read about the first age, but eh. Maybe Leviathan, Lilith, Ma-Ha-Suchi, and Ingosh were just exceptions and most Lunars had healthy and nurturing relationships with their mates.

[Indon]

They have several themes. It's just none of them are big enough/integrated enough to really sell them as a unique brand of Exalt.

I view the overarching theme of Lunars as an existential one.

The only divine mandate Lunars are given is a fairly insignificant and petty one that, in practice, is more a clearly unnatural compulsion than anything else. Of all the groups of Exalts in Creation, they are the most free to do what they please in the world - with Celestial power, and the backing of their fellows, but lacking severe responsibility.

From an ST's perspective, a Lunar NPC can fit damn near anywhere. They can be Wyld-themed villains or urban masterminds, deep Realm infiltrators with powerful anti-Fate artifacts, exotic locale explorers, Deathlords - you name it, a Lunar can thematically go there. Lacking guidance, Lunars forge their own fates.

From a player's perspective, Lunars are the easiest Exalt to throw into a multi-Exalt circle of damn near any composition, because of the above.

[Kyeudo]

From a player's perspective, Lunars are the easiest Exalt to throw into a multi-Exalt circle of damn near any composition, because of the above.

At least, they would be if they weren't straightjacketed into particular builds to be effective. You get combat monkeys and sexy socialites and that's about it.

[DeadManSleeping]

At least, they would be if they weren't straightjacketed into particular builds to be effective. You get combat monkeys and sexy socialites and that's about it.

With the exception of sorcerer/artificers, those are about the only types of builds I really see in any Exalt type

[Indon]

With the exception of sorcerer/artificers, those are about the only types of builds I really see in any Exalt type

And the No Moon anima power is frightening for Sorcery.

[Agrippa]

And said Solar's moral guide, I guess, given the stuff about how Lunar mates are the fastest way to redeem Abyssals and GSPs. That didn't seem to remotely work out in anything I've read about the first age, but eh. Maybe Leviathan, Lilith, Ma-Ha-Suchi, and Ingosh were just exceptions and most Lunars had healthy and nurturing relationships with their mates.

Maybe their Solar mates were just too wicked and far gone to be redeemed at all. That could be it.

[golentan]

And the No Moon anima power is frightening for Sorcery.

I think you had a typo here. This should read "Almost makes sorcery worth it. Almost."

[Reynard]

Actually, it was Leviathan who screwed up his relationship with his Solar Mate, after having an affair with said Solar's wife, then running to save her instead of his Mate when the Siddies went for broke.

He failed to save either of them, and hides in his city in shame, half-mad (he still calls himself an Admiral, even though the navy doesn't exist.)

He's also the (probably unwitting/knowing) leader of that-group-of-Lunars-that believe-you-should-love-your-mate-and-hold-them-and-squeeze-them-and-call-them-George-whose-name-I-can't-be-bothered-to-spell-and-my-this-is-getting-long.

[Indon]

I think you had a typo here. This should read "Almost makes sorcery worth it. Almost."

Extreme downtime requirements aside, Sorcery is very powerful, if only for the ability to access effects thematically disparate from your Exaltation type.

[golentan]

I agree, but the massive downtime and related rules makes it harsh for combat, and even the massive cost reduction of the No Moon requires you spend motes equal to the discount (I.E. only effective if you're casting a lot of spells at once)

[Kylarra]

I feel that if you're only looking at the "directly in combat utility" aspect of sorcery, you're selling its capabilities far short of what it can do. Even if we're looking only at CCS, since no-moons are the topic of discussion, to say nothing of SCS which kicks rules to the curb.

[senrath]

The problem is that while some spells are really great and are worth taking (like the summoning spells and Imbue Amalgam), the rest are either mediocre at best or downright suicidal to use at worst.

[Drascin]

There is also the problem that many, many spells are the kind of thing you cast maybe two times per story, tops, but still cost the same XP as getting more generally advantageous Charms or raising perpetually useful Ability dots or any other stuff - and XP is, in my experience, a sharply limited resource. It makes buying most spells feel like a waste.

And certainly combat spells are a bad idea among bad ideas. Sorcery is the go to place for big, powerful, but costly effects. In a game with cheap PDs, high DVs, and many immunities galore, "big, powerful, costly attacks" tend to read "waste this turn"

...*ahem*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xEfUh6dSpk

Seriously, man, if people being PAID to be relatively consistent managed to make the mishmash that Exalted is now, how well do you think a bunch of forumites will perform?

Better than Exalted writers, I reckon. At least we have a forum and we use it to talk to each other, which seems to be out of style in WW's offices. There's accounts of writers who seriously had no idea what the other guys were writing until they saw the document in print.

Mostly protection and versatility. Also survivalism, evolution (whether Lamarckian in which you change yourself into something perfectly adapted for solving the problem you face, or natural selection in which the weak people in your model ecosystem-society die off until it's full of badasses), shapeshifting, being an outsider to society, being able to adapt to any society and belong anywhere, emulating nature in general and animals in particular, savage beast (Full Moon)/ trickster (Changing Moon)/ wise old nature guy (guess) archetypes.

A pity half of those themes are so little expanded upon that most people can't even see them. Seriously, I mentioned the "outsiders" theme to my current ST and her reaction was something in the vein of "...uh? Don't really see it...". To most people, being a Lunar is simply about being tough and being persistent. Which is great for Full Moons, but makes thinking of No Moon exaltations a serious bear . I mean, I managed in the end, but still...

[MickJay]

The thought I had here was, "What's the absolute slowest you can go to actually pull these things off?" Yes, you have to be going as fast as you can in order for the Charms to work, but if you can be outpaced by a starting character while doing so, that'd just look silly, now wouldn't it?

"Wait, he's going so fast that he's invisible, but I'm running faster than him, and everyone can see me just fine?"

Any ideas for this?

Start with making your character legless. You're getting bonus points at creation AND your top speed is going to be somewhat limited. For extra effect, have your character's arms chopped off as well.

[The Rose Dragon]

Which is great for Full Moons, but makes thinking of No Moon exaltations a serious bear . I mean, I managed in the end, but still...

I seriously read that to mean that you were talking about only having played Lunars whose spirit shapes were serious bears.

[TheCountAlucard]

Okay, this isn't about the average mortal. But, what would a second age scholar with about 4 dots in lore, 3 in occult, with schooling in Lookshy, know about the Yozi/primordials? Anything?

Well, 3 in Occult is enough to know about most First Circle Demons, so I imagine you'd have at least an inkling of how it worked: namely, how these First Circle Demons were created by the Yozis/their composite souls to serve various purposes, and that the Second and Third Circle Demons are somehow vital components to the Yozis...

I seriously read that to mean that you were talking about only having played Lunars whose spirit shapes were serious bears.

[DeadManSleeping]

I feel that if you're only looking at the "directly in combat utility" aspect of sorcery, you're selling its capabilities far short of what it can do. Even if we're looking only at CCS, since no-moons are the topic of discussion, to say nothing of SCS which kicks rules to the curb.

Ah, but outside of directly-in-combat, you don't have that same mote-dependency thing because you can pace yourself better, which makes the No Moon's anima banner pretty unhelpful.

[Drascin]

By the way, while we're talking Sorcery, I'm reading the Celestial Circle spells in the White Treatise for the first time, and I'm kind of... underwhelmed. I'm trying to think up of scenarios that would allow for use of many of these spells and which would come up more than maybe twice per campaign, and I'm having trouble. The effects are really cool and all, but they feel like they are mostly either in the once-in-a-game category or the not-worth-so-much-essence-oh-my-god-why-does-this-cost-35-motes category.

And then there's Imbue Amalgam, which I'm either reading wrong or could be used for so many shenanigans it's not even funny.

[Lochar]

You're not reading it wrong.

[Guancyto]

I don't know how you could possibly think that. Sure, most of the spells aren't very good. Then there's Magma Kraken, which is the solution to everything.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sorcery is more useful for Exalts who can't simply do everything awesomely like Solars.

Solars only get use from Solar spells. Which is why they were developed really. They can do practically anything Celestial spells can do by themselves.

Perhaps not on such dramatic scales, so there's that. Sorcery is for when you want to kill an army all at once?

[Drascin]

You're not reading it wrong.

I was afraid so. It does have the drawback that you need to utterly destroy the personality of a mortal and substitute it for slavish devotion, so it's really kind of morally objectionable to many characters, but in the hands of someone without moral compunctions this thing could get pretty silly pretty quick...

I don't know how you could possibly think that. Sure, most of the spells aren't very good. Then there's Magma Kraken, which is the solution to everything.

Eh, as far as memetic solutions to everything go, I prefer Neighborhood Relocation Technique . But yes, there is undeniable style in dropping a giant aggroed chunk of magma with tentacles on your enemy's head.

Sorcery is more useful for Exalts who can't simply do everything awesomely like Solars.

Solars only get use from Solar spells. Which is why they were developed really. They can do practically anything Celestial spells can do by themselves.

Perhaps not on such dramatic scales, so there's that. Sorcery is for when you want to kill an army all at once?

Actually, I'm searching for spells for a Lunar, not a Solar - I don't play Solars if I can avoid it at all. It's just that most of these seem just so impractical to use, and so very much not worth the annoyance of finding a source to study the spells and then scraping 10 XP for the initiation charm and then another 10 XP for each individual spell that you'll probably use twice in the campaign at most (except, okay, Magma Kraken, because that's a spell you'll probably spam as much as humanly possible if you do get itjust because of the whole "it's a goddamn magma kraken, dude" thing, and there are indeed few situations that can't be improved by an angry kraken on fire )

[Lochar]

Imbue Amalgam is also benefited by Summon Elemental, and Demon of the First and Second Circle.

Bind a few elementals/demons, then Imbue your Amalgam so you've got plenty of charms to give to it.

[Tavar]

Well, one spell suffers from the problems that Warstriders in canon are bad, but if that's fixed, the celestial spell that creates a full warstrider could be useful.

Maybe.