Goblins V: It's Hard-Kore!

[The Linker]

And I disagree - the story hasn't moved on from its basic setting conceit any more than OotS has. The characters still talk about DMs and players. There are still goblins who decided to take adventurer levels and get bonus XP for sneaking into hostile cities.

Wait, you don't think the focus of OotS has shifted? I would be very surprised to see something written as over-the-top as 'Elan's organ is outside his body' posted today.

[DomaDoma]

Wait, you don't think the focus of OotS has shifted? I would be very surprised to see something written as over-the-top as 'Elan's organ is outside his body' posted today.

She didn't say focus - she said "setting conceit". To wit: a setting governed by D&D rules that serves as some kind of universal well for DMs and PCs to draw from without realizing what they're getting into, or, in the case of OotS, a setting governed by D&D rules with no "real world" whatsoever.

[The Linker]

Hmm, true. I never actually said 'focus' in my original post, I see now. Fair enough.

I'd say we agree at least in some ways, then, Yuki (and my apologies for the communication errors). I don't think the setting concept has changed, either. There were some points, though, where I wondered if Thunt wished his setting concept was different -- it had been so long since such a meta joke that I almost felt he wanted to retcon all that crazy stuff like re-rolling-on-death out.

Did you mean setting concept? I don't know what a setting conceit is.

[Killer Angel]

So... people on the Goblins forum have been complaining that talking abot players cheapens the story and breaks suspension of disbelief.

Since when has this story not been about how players and DMs unintentionally interact with another realm where D&D rules govern reality?

I can only make a supposition, but...
The basic of goblins' world didn't change, but the way the story is told, yes.
The adventures are slowly becoming darker, the tone is more serious, as if Thunt is moving forward his initial intentions. This kind of humor, applied to the fight with kore, would totally be out of contest.
Probably, for this reason, a joke breaking the fourth wall, can disappoint someone.

[LoneStarNorth]

Thunt drew the first handful of pages, then left them for a long time, then wrote the WHOLE STORY, put the first pages on the internet, and started to draw the rest. The story focuses on different things at different times, and maybe some things end or go away and never reappear, but that doesn't mean earlier strips are or will ever become non-canon.

Also, seconded that I don't get why some people get upset that their beloved ficticious characters are ACTUALLY FICTICIOUS.

[Yuki Akuma]

She didn't say

...

No. I'm not even going to bother. I don't care anymore.

Did you mean setting concept? I don't know what a setting conceit is.

It's basically how the setting is different from the real world. Sort of. The thing that makes the setting the setting. Yay circular language!

'Conceit' is a synonym for 'concept' (as in, an idea), but it also means an extended metaphor.

Also: Thunt wrote the entire story years ago. He's not going to suddenly decide to change how it goes.

[Claudius Maximus]

Well he can. I mean I facepalm at some of the stuff I came up with a few years ago. Yeesh.

I wouldn't hold it against him at all either, provided it didn't result in some exceptional contradictions or something. Then it could be a problem, but we haven't seen very many of those so far, and they haven't been very important anyway.

[Turalisj]

It's less that playing a mechanically powerful character is difficult, but more that players who seek mechanical optimization are unable to roleplay, and roleplayers will automatically shun mechanical optimization in favor of more "interesting" builds.

My god someone call the people I'm in games with that none of us can roleplay! [/sarcasm]

[The Linker]

Right. It's dumb. Which is why it's a fallacy.

[snoopy13a]

The drow players returned a long time ago. We just haven't seen those characters much.

I was kinda curious to see if the premise of actual players behind some of the characters was still true. Often, authors may get away from plot points such as this. However, it is clear that there are at least five player characters in the world.

Min-Max being a player character also helps to explain some of his reckless behavior. It is a little easier to act that way when the worst possible scenario is a character re-roll.

[Traab]

I was kinda curious to see if the premise of actual players behind some of the characters was still true. Often, authors may get away from plot points such as this. However, it is clear that there are at least five player characters in the world.

Min-Max being a player character also helps to explain some of his reckless behavior. It is a little easier to act that way when the worst possible scenario is a character re-roll.

Hopefully now that he is up at least 1 more level, if not two, he will start being more careful. Its not that big a deal to reroll a level 1 that dies, but once you complete the first couple campaigns you would hopefully be a bit more invested in your character and less willing to do stupid things like, "Im going to see if I can bluff that town guard into giving me all his money!" /wham wham wham!

[Weimann]

But eventually you're going to run out of alternate universes to race against, even if they end up getting killed off. There may be an infinite number of possible alternate universes, but the dungeon will go through them until they've all gotten the teapot.

Okay, I know it's 5 pages late and it's probably already been pointed out, but if there are in fact an infinite number of alternate universe, then they cannot all get the pot, because there will always be more. Forever. There is no enough time in the universe for all to get the pot, and if it is, then there weren't an infinite number of alternate universe.

[John Cribati]

Yes. There is enough time for all of them to get the pot, because when they walked through the sword, they effectively save-stated, and they go back in time to the save state until they succeed.

[The Linker]

But the value of 'all of them' is infinite. How can there be enough time for an infinite amount of people to all get the pot?

[snoopy13a]

As a side note, Forgath's player being female is somewhat surprising. Not that a female is playing a RPG is surprising as there are many female roleplayers. However, the player controlling the female PC is a tad (to put it lightly) immature in his understanding of women. It is a bit odd that the two of them would be playing the same game.

[John Cribati]

But the value of 'all of them' is infinite. How can there be enough time for an infinite amount of people to all get the pot?

... Oh. I see what you're getting at. Except the Maze of many exists outside of time, so trying to understand this is pointless.

[Turalisj]

... Oh. I see what you're getting at. Except the Maze of many exists outside of time, so trying to understand this is pointless.

Repeat after me: "I hate time travel"

[Weimann]

As a side note, Forgath's player being female is somewhat surprising. Not that a female is playing a RPG is surprising as there are many female roleplayers. However, the player controlling the female PC is a tad (to put it lightly) immature in his understanding of women. It is a bit odd that the two of them would be playing the same game.

This is why I believe that we are looking at things from a character perspective. The characters know that there are people who play them, and they know a little bit about them, but they know this in the same way that players know their characters: incompletely, from without.

The same way a player can go "well, my character would probably do this in this situation", so can the characters draw sweeping conclusions about their players, but they don't actually know them any more than they have observed about them through interaction with the world.

An example: Forgath talks about the Great Hubert in 3rd person. It is clear that it's not the player talking to the GM, it is the character talking to him. I think this is a good place for the comic to be in.

[Irbis]

In terms of the webcomic, if the fallacy held true, then Minmax would not only be as powerful as he is in combat, but his player wouldn't interact with Kin (since she's "just" an NPC, and therefore irrelevant) and would probably display much more intelligence since that would make the character better, even if his stats don't bear out being able to tie his own shoe.

What. This always bugs me about Goblins - why people assume Minmax is even average, much less strong?

Fact #1: Optimized character can tear through a band of goblins in a party;

Reality: Minmax, supposedly optimized, even over-optimized due to lax gamemaster allowing absurd bonuses everywhere fails to do so despite having party larger (5) than usual;

Fact #2: Average character can win in 1-1 duel with Goblin (1/4 CR creature) every time;

Reality: Minmax struggles with one goblin; The great equalizer that allows classless 1/4 CR creature to fight off Minmax, maim him and nearly kill him is a measly +1 sword. That's it, +1 to attack & damage. Against enemy who got multiple +1s for lack of ability to sneeze or insomnia.

Verdict - How in the world Minmax is stronger than very weak NPC? If +1 weapon is all that equalizes them, MM must be in fact weaker than goblin.

Did MM won even one fight against anyone competent? He needed help even against broken Goblin Slayer, who was handily humiliated by one goblin earlier, despite surprising him with two lethal attacks.

[Traab]

Well in the beggining he DID do decent against that group of demons, until the big bad showed up. Also, that whole +1 sword thing. Remember that this was AFTER he took a couple spears, (yes it got healed I know) knocked over a gigantic dead tree, slaughtered his way through various lowbie goblins, taking other assorted wounds, even taking a bit of damage from Names BEFORE he got the sword. Plus, he had several rounds where the very enviroment was against him. Starting with what amounts to a sneak attack that costs him a fricking EYE, a few missed attacks due to the goblin using the treasure chest as a shield, and once again landing several nasty shots in between, severely damaging him and limiting mobility. They dont play it like where you fight at full capacity wether you have 1hp or 100. In a straight up fight, open field, names would have been gutted like a fish. Dont forget that alot of Minmax's +1 skills are fairly random like proficiency furniture, and unarmed attacks, and other such things.

Also, the whole Goblin Slayer thing, dont forget that the goblin that humiliated him was a monk goblin. Not some 1/4 cr standard goblin, but an adventurer with a low level, but an assload of experience. Especially against the slayer. And honestly, I thought minmax was doing fairly well, yeah it was a bad moment when forgath jumped in, but that could have just as easily turned into another elbow from behind and started the brawl right back up again.

*EDIT* The only reason he lost against Names in the end was due to a random effect from that silly shield. He had names dead to rights. He was pinned, unarmed and couldnt do squat to fight back. That effect probably would have let Names escape from fricking Kore, let alone Minmax.

[The Linker]

Minmax may have struggled with Complains, but don't forget he killed dozens of goblins beforehand. It's a bit skewing the results to say "Well, he couldn't even kill one goblin!" He killed plenty. Complains was the unique one.

In response to the initial question of 'why does anyone assume he's average, let alone strong' -- don't forget the goblins got to read his character sheet.

[Turalisj]

In response to the initial question of 'why does anyone assume he's average, let alone strong' -- don't forget the goblins got to read his character sheet.

Pfft, details... We don't need no stinkin details!

[Irbis]

Bad luck you say?

The problem with MM is that he always has bad luck. He never shines. Never beats anything dangerous. He loses to classless goblins with one magic items, loses to enemies beat by goblin (weak race) monk (weak class).

In short, he never does feats I wouldn't see done by my not-exactly-optimized Fighter 1, much less CO OP Fighter with +666 bonuses.

[The Linker]

He has a 60 ft running speed.

Beat that.

And technically that classless goblin had two magic items, the second one choking him in vines where he would have otherwise won. So no, the +1 sword didn't save Complains, the Shield of Wonder did.

[Kris Strife]

But the value of 'all of them' is infinite. How can there be enough time for an infinite amount of people to all get the pot?

Yeah, but only a finite number of alternate universes have timelines where MinMax and Co actually enter the maze.

[ThirdEmperor]

Didn't he kick the living crud out of the Goblinslayer? Slaughter a whole heck load of goblins? (even without counting, I can tellthat was at least a CR 3 encounter)

I'd point out that even if he isn't the greatest fighter, he is a general badarse, and whoever is playing him is a kickbutt role-player.

[Turalisj]

Bad luck you say?

The problem with MM is that he always has bad luck. He never shines. Never beats anything dangerous. He loses to classless goblins with one magic items, loses to enemies beat by goblin (weak race) monk (weak class).

In short, he never does feats I wouldn't see done by my not-exactly-optimized Fighter 1, much less CO OP Fighter with +666 bonuses.

He lost by DM Fiat. I bring to the trial this comic.

[The Linker]

Yeah, but only a finite number of alternate universes have timelines where MinMax and Co actually enter the maze.

Any fraction of infinite, no matter how small, is still infinite.

[Kris Strife]

Any fraction of infinite, no matter how small, is still infinite.

And there's an infinite amount of time to spend in the Maze of Many, so eventually they'll run out.

[ThirdEmperor]

Any fraction of infinite, no matter how small, is still infinite.

Okay. Imagine a lottery, with an infinite amount of players, in which one player is picked every time. Now, every players odds are exactly infinity to one, meaning they will, mathematically speaking, never win. However, every time, without fail, one of them will win nonetheless, despite having a infinity to one chance of winning. Repeat an infinite amount of times, and someday you will win.