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    Default Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Antithesis

    Of course you canít kill me. I donít exist. Soon enough, neither will you.

    An Antithesis is a being that draw on nothingness, taking it into themselves and using it to fuel their various powers. Reality itself seems to prefer to pretend they donít exist-and they find it rather easy to make their enemies stop existing. Their unique status gives them several abilities that twist the laws of magic and existence. Unlike many forms of magic, they require no subtle movements (Unless the Antithesis enjoys melodrama), and therefore are unaffected by armour. Many Antitheses use this strength to suit up in a full harness of armour and get into the middle of the combat.

    Abilities: An Antithesis has put themself outside of reality, existing purely on the power of their own spirits. This willpower is best represented with Charisma, which fuels most of their abilities. Most of their abilities require an attack roll, making Strength an important secondary concern. Of course, Dexterity and Constitution are also of some importance, allowing them to serve as a ranged combatant, or to increase their survivability.

    Role: An Antithesis is a powerful short range fighter, with some supporting abilities. In a desperate situation, they can serve as a healer or a ranged fighter.

    Background: An Antithesis is most commonly the result of a great deal of personal study, and an excessive amount of belief in oneís ability to remain themself.

    Organization: While an Antithesis can sometimes get on in a mageís guild or even a military group, the only places where they truly fit in is with adventurers, who are regularly as strange or even stranger.

    Alignment: A willingness to use the power of nothingness is commonly a more neutral ideal on the good-evil axis, while it tends to appeal to either of the two extremes of chaotic and lawful-taking in the power of emptiness is either a reckless and spontaneous decision, or one thought through carefully. As with all things, however, there are exceptions.

    Races: Humans, with their infinite variety, make of most of the Antitheses. Other than them, long lived races are more likely to have both the curiosity and the knowledge to attempt to become such a being.

    Religion: An individual Antithesis has little reason to have different beliefs than they would have otherwise. Some claim that the powers of nothingness render religion unnecessary, but an equally large number believe that it merely makes it more important. Notable indeed is the worship of the deity Tharizdun, who some claim is the origin of their power.

    Other Classes: The Antithesis appears strange to most magical classes, their nature rendering them completely wrong to their eyes. Druidís in particular consider them an abomination, and one who is willing to befriend them is as rare as a Druidic necromancer.

    Adaptation: Most abilities could be replaced with negative energy damage to avoid the references to nothingness, although a power increase would be necessary to compensate for the commonality of methods to avoid this damage.

    Hit Die: d8

    Starting Gold: As Cleric

    Class Features

    Class Skills: The Antithesis' class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Listen (Wis), Knowledge (The Planes) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha) Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex)

    Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int Modifier) x4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int Modifier

    Level
    Base Attack Bonus
    Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
    Fast Movement
    1st
    +0
    +0
    +0
    +2
    Annihilating Touch, Annihilate
    --
    2nd
    +1
    +0
    +0
    +3
    Beyond Reality
    --
    3rd
    +2
    +1
    +1
    +3
    Void Strength
    --
    4th
    +3
    +1
    +1
    +4
    Annihilating Blade
    --
    5th
    +3
    +1
    +1
    +4
    Speed of the Nonexistant
    +10'
    6th
    +4
    +2
    +2
    +5
    Bolt of Nothing
    +10'
    7th
    +5
    +2
    +2
    +5
    Universal Persistence
    +10'
    8th
    +6/+1
    +2
    +2
    +6
    Energised Annihilation
    +10'
    9th
    +6/+1
    +3
    +3
    +6
    Channeled Void
    +10'
    10th
    +7/+2
    +3
    +3
    +7
    Tremendous Speed
    +20'
    11th
    +8/+3
    +3
    +3
    +7
    Void Overload
    +20'
    12th
    +9/+4
    +4
    +4
    +8
    Far Beyond Reality
    +20'
    13th
    +9/+4
    +4
    +4
    +8
    Nothing-Storm
    +20'
    14th
    +10/+5
    +4
    +4
    +9
    Greater Persistence
    +20'
    15th
    +11/+6/+1
    +5
    +5
    +9
    Spirit Link
    +30'
    16th
    +12/+7/+2
    +5
    +5
    +10
    Void Burn
    +30'
    17th
    +12/+7/+2
    +5
    +5
    +10
    Knowledge Annihilation
    +30'
    18th
    +13/+8/+3
    +6
    +6
    +11
    Unreality
    +30'
    19th
    +14/+9/+4
    +6
    +6
    +11
    Permanence
    +30'
    20th
    +15/+10/+5
    +6
    +6
    +12
    Eradicate
    +40'

    Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: An Antithesis is proficient with all simple weapons, and up to one martial weapon of their choice. They are also proficient in light, medium, and heavy armour, plus shields, including Tower Shields.

    Annihilating Touch, Annihilating Blade, Bolt of Nothing (Su):
    A weapon? Ha. Like I need one.
    An Antithesis can, as a normal attack action, make a Melee touch attack a number of times per encounter equal to their Charisma bonus. If it hits, this attack deals 1d4 untyped damage per class level, plus the Antithesisí charisma bonus. This attack ignores object hardness.

    This attack can be used as the weapon in a sunder attack using all the normal rules.

    A creature slain by any form of Annihilating Touch is completely destroyed, leaving no remains. They cannot be returned to life with any method short of True Resurrection, or several chained Wishes.

    Although, it certainly wouldnít hurt. Me, anyway.
    At 4th level, an Antithesis gains the ability to channel the power of their Annihilating Touch through a melee weapon. If they choose to, they make a normal melee attack and that attack deals its normal damage plus the damage and effects of Annihilating Touch.

    Or I could just remove you from here.
    At 6th level, and Antithesis can project this nothingness at range. They may use their Annihilating Touch attack as a ranged touch attack, with range equal to five foot per class level. Alternatively, they may channel the damage through a ranged weapon, with the same rules as for a melee weapon.

    Annihilate (Ex):
    Youíre going to kill me? Trust me on this... not a good idea.
    When an Antithesis is slain, the nothingness within them expands outwards in an explosion of soundless emptiness. All living things within 5 foot per two class levels are caught by the wave, although they are entitled to a reflex save for half damage. Everything that fails this save takes 1d3 untyped damage for each hit die they possess.

    As a side effect of this ability, an Antithesis cannot be raised from death by any method short of True Resurrection, or several chained Wishes.

    Beyond Reality, Far Beyond Reality (Su):
    Next youíre going to try and mess with my head. Idiot.
    An Antithesis of at least 2nd level is strange and confusing to normal beings. They gain a morale bonus to resist any mind affecting effect equal to half their class level.

    Oh, I felt something there. A failure that bad must chafe.
    At 12th level, they become immune to mind affecting effects, unless it is caused by a creature with at least twice their hit dice, or by a character with at least two levels of Antithesis.

    Void Strength (Ex):
    Besides. You? Kill me? Not even in your dreams.
    As a side effect of the power of nothingness that runs through them, an Antithesis of 3rd level or higher is very difficult to kill. They gain a bonus on all saving throws which would automatically result in their death on a failed save equal to their class level divided by four. In addition, they are immune to massive damage, and do not die from HP damage until their life total reaches (-10 Ė Class level - Cha bonus)
    If an Antithesis is targeted by a mind affecting spell that will cause them to die on a failed save, the bonuses from Void Strength and Beyond Reality stack.

    Speed of the Nonexistant, Tremendous Speed (Ex):
    I mean, you couldnít catch me without the entire military of the plane helping you.
    The Anthithesis' bond with nothing allows them to resist fundamental laws. At this level, they can move with impossible speed. An Antithesis of at least 5th level gains +10 to each of their move speeds. This increases by another ten feet at each fifth level thereafter, as seen in the 'fast movement' column.

    And even then I really do doubt it.
    In addition, at 10th level, they gain their charisma modifier as a morale bonus to their reflex save and initiative. This speed also allows them to chain attacks together smoothly. Whenever they hit with an unarmed strike or the melee touch attack granted by the Annihilating Touch ability, they may immediately attempt to trip their opponent, or start a grapple. This will not provoke an attack of opportunity.

    Universal Persistance (Su):
    Hey, look! You actually cut me! Itís three inches long, two, one all gone!
    An Antithesis of at least 7th level is healed by the energies within them, which are unwilling to allow a powerful host to fall. While under half their total hit points, they gain Fast Healing equal to half their class level.
    In addition, they age at half the normal rate. (All age categories are doubled in size, as is the maximum age)

    And now I foresee an attempt at removing a limb. Look, for your egoís sake, donít try it.
    At 14th level, an Antithesis also gains Regeneration equal to half their class level. They are dealt lethal damage by psionic and magical powers, weapons and spells, as well as adamantium. The Fast Healing from 7th level does not stack with this ability to heal nonlethal damage faster, but does continue to heal even magical damage. In addition, they cease to age. They still die when their (Doubled from Universal Persistance) maximum age is reached.

    Energised Annihilation (Su):
    You realise, this is getting pretty dull. Maybe Iíll set you on fire...
    An Antithesis of 8th level can fundamentally change their void energies, creating powerful manifesations of more traditional destructive power. Of course, they use the ability to form something from nothing only to destroy. They can use any form of their Annihilating Touch ability to deal fire, electricity, acid or cold damage. If they do, then each die of damage is replaced by 2d4.
    Alternatively, they may deal subdual, Negative or Positive energy damage. (In this case, either negative or positive energy can be used to heal or harm any given creature.) If they do, each die of damage is replaced by a d8.
    Finally, they may choose to deal force damage. If they do, then each die is increased in size to a d6.

    If an opponent is slain by an Energised Annihilating Touch, they are not removed from existence. A normal Resurrection, Raise Dead or Reincarnate spell is enough to return them to life.

    Channeled Void (Su):
    ...aww, I feel sorry for you. Give me a hug...
    At 9th level, an Antithesis can force a huge amount of energy into a grappled enemies system. Any opponent grappled can be targeted as a Swift Action. They must make a Fortitude save with DC equal to 10 + half the Antithesisí class level. If they fail, they take damage equal to twice the number of damage dice dealt by the Antithesisí Annihilating Touch ability. If they pass, they take half this damage.

    This ability takes up one use of the Antithesis' Annihilating Touch ability.

    Void Overload (Su):
    I really don't understand you. Thatís why Iím about to destroy you utterly and completely!
    At 11th level, an Antithesis begins to fully understand what they are doing. They may Ďsuperchargeí their Annihilating Touch attack by using more than one of their per encounter uses in a single attack. (This remains a single attack action.) However, this causes a dangerous mental backlash. They deal damage to the target as if they were hit with more than one use of the attack, but the Antithesis takes charisma burn equal to the number of uses of Annihilating Touch used in the attack.
    (If using Energised Annihilation to deal fire, electricity, acid or cold damage, treat each 2d4 as a single die)

    Nothing-Storm (Su):
    Well... dodge this then!
    At 13th level, an Antithesis can use their annihilating touch attacks as a cone or burst attack. If so, their range is halved, for a cone, or divided by four, for a burst. Every target within the range is dealt damage, but is entitled to a reflex save for half damage.
    Using this ability deals two points of charisma burn to the user.

    This ability can be combined with Void Overload and/or Energised Annihilation.

    Spirit-Link (Su):
    Awah, youíre dying? Iím still bored... okay, let me just heal you up quick...
    An Antithesis of at least 15th level can absorb other peopleís injuries by reaching out with Ďnothingí and drawing in Ďsomethingí. They claim that this makes perfect sense.
    Treat this as a melee touch attack if the subject is unwilling, but otherwise it works automatically. They regain health equal to the amount of damage that you would deal with your Annihilating Touch. You take nonlethal damage equal to this amount. (Which will be regenerated due to your Universal Persistence class feature)

    Void Burn (Su):
    Thatís better! Now... donít want you to be able to fight back too well...
    A 16th level Antithesis can use their anti-power to weaken their enemies, sometimes permanently. They may give up dice of the untyped damage dealt by Annihilating Touch to deal ability damage. For each four dice of damage given up this way, they take 1d2 ability damage to one stat of your choice. They may take a Fortitude save with DC equal to 10 + half your class level + your Charisma Modifier to negate this damage. If they fail, then they must take another save after a day has passed with the same DC. If this is failed, the damage becomes Ability Drain instead, but if passed the damage goes away.
    If any dice of normal damage remain, they can be exchanged with Energised Annihilation or used for damage as normal.

    Knowledge Annihilation (Su):
    Iíve had fun today, havenít you? Maybe if I burn away everything that defines you, youíll consider joining me.
    A 17th level Antithesis can destroy their opponents very memories and skills. This works much like Void Burn, but is an exchange of 6d4 untyped damage for 1d2 negative levels. The fortitude save to avoid these negative levels is equal to 10 + half your class level + your Charisma Modifier. The same DC is used to stop these levels from becoming permanent after 24 hours.

    Unreality (Ex):
    After all, you never had a chance, really. The laws of nature themselves prostrate themselves before me.
    An 18th level Antithesis is treated as an Outsider as well as a member of their original race. Any future racial hitdie use the Outsider rules, and they gain Darkvison, do not need to eat or sleep (Although they still can) and, if they somehow die without the Annihilation ability activating, still require an effect such as True Resurrection to return to life.
    In addition, they gain DR 5/-, and double their natural healing rate for ability damage and burn.
    They are considered native to no planes, and always possess the Extraplanar subtype.
    (A Dismissal effect or anything that would send it to it's home plane sends it to a random plane.)

    Permanence (Ex):
    For a start, Iím a fixed point. I will always be.
    A 19th level Antithesis is only barely connected to the universe she once belonged to. Bonded with the Nothingness that she takes power from, a death for her is essentially final, beyond even magic... unless something binds her to the world.

    Some create an amulet, a cage, or some iconic item, similar in nature to a Lich's phylactery, and with the same monetary cost and toughness. Others form a shrine to themselves. Either way, it is known as the Antithesis' Fetter.

    An Antithesis of this level will never die from old age, regardless of whether they have a Fetter. (They already do not age, due to Universal Persistence). In addition, as long as their pseudo-phylactery exists, whenever they are killed in any method, they will be resurrected after exactly one week as per the spell True Resurrection, However, they lose a level as per a normal resurrection spell. If their phylactery is destroyed, no effect is capable of bringing them back at all, ever.
    However, a friendly being can create a new phylactery dedicated to them, although they would need extensive knowledge of them, such as that of a family member, adventuring companion, or lover. If they do so, the Antithesis does NOT immediately return to life, but is once again a valid target for True Resurrection.

    Antithesis vary in their approach to death, and the oblivion that awaits them. Some fear the ultimate ending that they drain the power of, the end of all life and the lack of all things, and seek to prolong their life in any way possible. Some embrace it, believing that nothing is better than being one with nothing.

    Eradicate (Su):
    ...and I could always just have done this.
    A 20th level Antithesis can channel all of their power into a single strike. Once per encounter, as a full round action, they can make either a ranged or melee touch attack. If this attack hits, the target must make a Fortitude and a Will Save, each with a DC equal to 10 + half the Antithesisí class level plus their Charisma modifier. If both saves are failed, they suffer damage equal to the Antithesis' class level multiplied by her charisma modifier. A creature destroyed this way is utterly obliterated, meaning that they require the equivalent of a True Resurrection spell to return to life. If one save is made, the attack deals damage equal to the Antithesisí Annihilating Touch. If both are made, it deals damage equal to the Antithesis' class level.

    * * *

    I made this class for a contest some time ago, and finally got around to putting it here for help. Only DM I showed it to responded with 'no just no', so I think it reeeaally needs some help. So... help?
    Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2014-04-04 at 11:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    • Annihilating Blade isn't labeled in the description. Further, I it would read better as: At 4th level, an Antithesis gains the ability to channel the power of their Annihilating Touch through a melee weapon. If they choose to, they make a normal melee attack and that attack deals its normal damage plus the damage and effects of Annihilating Touch.
    • Bolt of Nothing isn't labeled in the description.
    • Annihilate (called Annihilation in the Table) is extremely party unfriendly. Like, Frenzied Berserker level unfriendly. I like the idea, and it is flavorful, but the other players will not be happy. I'd recommend either reducing the damage or making the ability specifically target the being that killed the Antithesis.
    • I'd say either make Annihilate a supernatural ability, or remove the clause regarding anti-magic fields. if it really is an extraordinary ability then it makes no sense to need a clause saying it works in an AMF.
    • Far Beyond Reality isn't labeled in the description.
    • Void Strength is absurdly strong. By high levels it can easily be granting them effectively 150+ HP (I can't imagine an Antithesis wouldn't take Diehard). And such a huge bonus bonus to saves blanketing any deadly save...I'd reduce the bonus to maybe +1 per 4 class level, and reduce the negative HP extension to maybe 10 + class level + Cha mod.
    • Speed of the Nonexistant also seems powerful. I get what you're trying to represent, but it seems like an odd collection of abilities granted by a single class features, not to mention that feature is boost the heck out of their Ref Save and initiative already.
    • Universal Persistence is, again, I think a little strong. I feel that unlimited Fast Healing should probably be reduced to only being effective if you're under half HP. Especially since you're getting to live past -10 HP as well.
    • Greater Persistance isn't labeled in the description. Further, I'm worried about regeneration, especially regen that makes non-casters even more useless.
    • Energized Annihilation...erm...why can they change their touch of nothingness into energy types? And why does departing from their devotion to nonexistence, the entire purpose of their class, double their power? mechanically is seems fine, though the 16d4 at level 8 is a bit much, but flavor wise...whaaa?
    • Channeled Void is the single most powerful grapple ability ever. Even at level 9 a grappled enemy will conservatively be taking 27 damage on a successful save every round it is grappled. The ability isn't even limited to once per round! Holy crap, that is some good grappling!
    • Outside Looking In...traditionally being removed from mortals, like Far Realm creatures or even Warforged is portrayed as reducing understanding. How are people so devoted to the antithesis of all that is gaining special insight into the workings of normal people? I would think that would make them more alien.
    • Void Overload lets them effortlessly nova a significant threat and then heal up with their Fast Healing, having effectively spent no resources to defeat the encounter.
    • Nothing Storm - I'm assuming the range is based on Bolt of Nothing? And they can use this AoE without any reduction in the damage. They can even use the nova ability? Wow...say goodbye to a group of enemies, the Antithesis will just sit for 5 minutes afterward and get fully healed again.
    • Spirit Link doesn't bother me too much, even though it is unlimited healing. Nice to have healing that could actually be used in combat. And it heals undead!
    • Holy nuts Void Burn does a tremendous amount of ability damage. Remove the + Cha modifier to the damage and it might work.
    • Knowledge Annihilation references Soul Burn...I'm assuming that was meant to be Void Burn?
    • Unreality makes for a very boring 18th level. Perhaps somethings more that helps to emphasize their uniqueness even among outsiders? I would say at this point the Antithesis has no proper plane, always has the extraplanar subtype, and so on.
    • Is this 4th edition now? The class grants unquestioned immortality? and it is granted by existence, the very thing the entire class rejects? Whaaa?
    • Eradicate is insane. once per encounter...pretty much +75% you'll just wipe an enemy from existence. With no drain to yourself at all.


    Aside from those initial impressions (too powerful), I'm just not feeling the flavor of the class. I think it is an interesting idea, but things feel too scattered, and there seems to be conflicting flavor. I can try to offer more in depth fixes for stuff if you'd like.

    Also, if any class is inclined to worship Tharzidun, it's this one.
    My homebrew - If you use it, please let me know how it goes!

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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Permanence (Ex):
    For a start, Iím a fixed point. I will always be.
    A 19th level Antithesis cannot die. The Universe has decided that this being that so offends itís eyes will always be and must always be-and if something else disagrees, it will take steps to fix it. An Antithesis of this level will never die from old age. (They already do not age, due to Universal Persistence). In addition, whenever they are killed in any method, they will be resurrected after exactly one week as per the spell True Resurrection. They lose one level as per normal for a return to life.
    If for any reason True Resurrection cannot return them to life, it will try again after one week. This effect will continue to repeat every week until it is successful.
    Aside from the fact that this class is powered by nothing (which in and of itself makes no sense what so ever) this ability is insane. Not just insane perhaps, but beyond unbalanced. Any method? What if they're hit with a Sphere of Annihilation which you know...takes a wish or greater to bring you back.

    With just this ability alone this class is beyond to powerful no matter how you slice it. As for the rest of the class. While fluffy, it doesn't make any sense. How does becoming closer to nothing make you faster? How does channeling "Nothing" allow them to take other people's wounds from them. It's end cap ability has already been pointed out as way to powerful.

    Again, the class is fluffy and structurally well made. Some thought has clearly gone into this. But the fluff makes little to no sense in any context of "Nothingness" and some abilities are fairly over powered or simply to weak.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lix Lorn's Avatar

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    I'll add in titles into the text for things I hadn't put in there.

    Hmmm. I'll reduce the damage then. I could just make it 'everything in range taked d3/hd damage'. Probably won't even kill a wizard.

    ...good point. Will change.

    ...true, those numbers are way too big. Will change as recommended.

    For Speed of the Nonexistent, I could split it into several class features. Some of the others don't really fit, and were thrown in to fill levels...

    Will change Persistence to be under half health.
    And for Greater Persistence, they are dealt damage by magic weapons as well. Will clarify that.

    Well, the way I see it is drawing something from nothing. By departing normality for seven levels, they're stronger when they return.

    Channeled Void is a Swift Action; so it's effectively one per round without shenanigans.
    ...buuut, I could make it take a use of Annihilating Touch.

    This was a more tangenital application of Something from nothing. Will replace with the second half of speed of the nonexistent.

    Pooint. Hmm. I could make it do you cha damage. Two per use maybe?

    Nothing Storm would probably be reduced with the cha damage issue... if not, I could make it do cha damage as a cost in itself. In fact, that could be a theme... hmm...

    Yeah, Void Burn is way too much. Will remove cha mod. And reduce to 1d2 as well...

    Oops. Yes.

    That'd be interesting. I'll steal that.

    Once again, the theme of something from nothing. You can't kill what doesn't exist.
    ...that said, true resurrection is pushing it. I think I'll make it a normal resurrection, So they lose levels. And can do it a maximum of twice before 20th.

    ...yeah, that looks stronger than I remember. Will standardise the save a bit, and make it 1/day.

    Yeah, Tharizdun fits. xD


    Nothing was the challenge theme. I'm not exactly sure how it works, although my best theory would be that it's adherents power it with their own belief. They think that nothingness empowers them, and their charisma modifiers make it true.

    I'm going to severely weaken the resurrection ability, and will also make it only apply to things that True Res works on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    I'll add in titles into the text for things I hadn't put in there.
    Shiny.

    Hmmm. I'll reduce the damage then. I could just make it 'everything in range taked d3/hd damage'. Probably won't even kill a wizard.
    Hopefully, but it will still not be a pleasant thing. Effectively making the party take extra care of ensuring the Antithesis' survival...which the other players may not appreciate. I'd give the ability a set range of 15' or reduce the scaling to 5' per four class levels. It would also make sense for the damage to be at least partly sonic, from an inrush of air and sonic boom from the antithesis' being sucked into the nothingness they worship.

    ...good point. Will change.
    Shiny.

    ...true, those numbers are way too big. Will change as recommended.
    Shiny.

    For Speed of the Nonexistent, I could split it into several class features. Some of the others don't really fit, and were thrown in to fill levels...
    I'm more unsure at how believing in and channeling non existence makes one faster. Is it that you slowly lose your connection to the real world, and with that loosening connection comes a looser restriction of the rules of gravity and friction and such? If so then it doesn't really fit as a morale bonus, maybe a resistance bonus.

    To make things fit more, I'd grant the class Fast Movement at 5th level, +10' to all movement speeds, improving by 10' at either 10/15/20 or 11/17. Then I'd say that the class chooses a bonus feat at 5th level, either Improved Grapple or Improved Trip, like the how the monk selects between two feats.

    Then I'd grant the bonus to reflex saves and initiative at 10th level. Perhaps 1/2 Cha mod, then improve it to full at 15th level.

    Will change Persistence to be under half health.
    And for Greater Persistence, they are dealt damage by magic weapons as well. Will clarify that.
    So...can they be hurt in an antimagic field? If not, then why would they ever leave one? There needs to be something mundane to overcome their regen. otherwise they'll never taken anything but nonlethal damage. Hell, a Warforged with the Improved Resiliency feat is immune to all damage at that point. Frankly I just don't think the regen is a good idea.

    And I don't see how it makes sense from a flavor perspective, either. If anything, the anthiesis' beliefs should make it harder to heal. It believes, if I understand things, in the opposite of reality. In the unmaking of everything, of existence. That makes it effectively have a suicide wish but wanting to take everything along with it. That does not lend itself towards continued existence. Rather it lends itself to fading from reality.

    Well, the way I see it is drawing something from nothing. By departing normality for seven levels, they're stronger when they return.
    Huh? You can't draw something from nothing. There isn't anything to draw. Unless you're talking about the spontaneous generation of matter and antimatter that comes from nothing? Even then, generating anything seems to go against the very foundation this class is built upon. Which is nothingness. I would think it'd be almost heresy for an antithesis of that level to resort to using existence.

    And when did they leave, so how did they return?

    Channeled Void is a Swift Action; so it's effectively one per round without shenanigans.
    ...buuut, I could make it take a use of Annihilating Touch.
    Ok. And it is still way better than any constrict ability I've ever seen. Take rushing Weight of the Mountain, widely regarded as one of the best options for grapplers, and a good stance. It grants a constrict of 2d6 + 1.5 Str mod. Which is nothing compared to a successful save against Channeled Void! Reduce it to dealing damage equal to the number of dice dealt by Annihilating touch, save for half, and it is still quite strong, but probably workable.

    Also, from a flavor perspective, they shouldn't be able to force anything into anything. I could see them sucking some of the existence away from their target, but not forcing something in. The don't believe in something, they believe in nothing!

    This was a more tangenital application of Something from nothing. Will replace with the second half of speed of the nonexistent.
    Shiny.

    Pooint. Hmm. I could make it do you cha damage. Two per use maybe?
    Damage is pretty meaningless to an Antithesis. Have it deal ability burn. They're forcing a huge amount of nonexistence through themselves, that should severely weaken their own existence in reality. And an Antithesis that kills themselves from this ability damage ceases to exist. Their soul is destroyed. They cannot be raised, ever. Even divine intervention can only replicate, it cannot bring back the original soul, for that soul has been utterly annihilated, which is what the soul believed in anyways.

    Nothing Storm would probably be reduced with the cha damage issue... if not, I could make it do cha damage as a cost in itself. In fact, that could be a theme... hmm...
    Again, HP damage is pretty irrelevant to a class that grants itself Fast Healing and Regeneration. I'd go with the ability burn again. Either that or I'd reduce the range and make it take up 3-5 charges of your Annihilating Touch.

    And I'm saying ability burn here because magic shouldn't be able to restore damage that was sacrificed to nothingness. There is nothing there for the magic to restore, and only the Antithesis' unique connection and understanding of non-existence allows him to regenerate that damage at all.

    Yeah, Void Burn is way too much. Will remove cha mod. And reduce to 1d2 as well...
    Shiny.

    Oops. Yes.
    Ok

    That'd be interesting. I'll steal that.
    Glad you like it. The feature is still boring unfortunately. I'd grant them some small DR, the ability to heal their ability damage more quickly, maybe some type of limited Dimension Door effect as they can step through reality in patches. Actually, I'd add a few more features, and then add the note that one they die, they can never be raised. Ever. Just like if they died from their own ability burn, they have become so in tune with the opposite of existence that they simply cease.

    Once again, the theme of something from nothing. You can't kill what doesn't exist.
    ...that said, true resurrection is pushing it. I think I'll make it a normal resurrection, So they lose levels. And can do it a maximum of twice before 20th.
    Right, and if they don't exist then they don't exist. There can't be some esoteric "existence-within-nonexistence." That is, by definition, existence. The universe, if it has a unique will in your games, should be more than happy to let the abomination of an Antithesis fade from existence forever. And wouldn't an Antithesis not being able to leave reality be just about the worst hell for it imaginable? It believes so strongly is nothing that it has spent 19 levels of its life devoted to that belief.

    I'm honestly not sure what to do about this feature...it could be changed into a phylactery-style feature, made the level after they ascend to outsider-hood, to prevent them from being completely annihilated until their mission is complete. (Personally I can't imagine there mission to be any different from Tharzidun's, unless they are seriously deluded...which most probably are).

    ...yeah, that looks stronger than I remember. Will standardise the save a bit, and make it 1/day.
    For destruction that complete, I'd have ti operate on a touch attack only, and I'd make them take both saves, and they'd have to fail both in order to die. If they make one save they take twice the damage of your Annihilating Touch, and if they make both they just take the normal damage of your Annihilating Touch.

    Yeah, Tharizdun fits. xD




    As I was reading this again, I had another thought. What happens to their gear when they die with Annihilate? Does it drop to the ground? Is it damaged by the blast? Is it sucked into nothingness with them?
    Last edited by MammonAzrael; 2011-01-21 at 04:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Hopefully, but it will still not be a pleasant thing. Effectively making the party take extra care of ensuring the Antithesis' survival...which the other players may not appreciate. I'd give the ability a set range of 15' or reduce the scaling to 5' per four class levels. It would also make sense for the damage to be at least partly sonic, from an inrush of air and sonic boom from the antithesis' being sucked into the nothingness they worship.
    5ft/4 levels seems to small... 5ft/2?
    And I'd say that it's almost all simple void energy, rather than air or sonic.

    I'm more unsure at how believing in and channeling non existence makes one faster. Is it that you slowly lose your connection to the real world, and with that loosening connection comes a looser restriction of the rules of gravity and friction and such? If so then it doesn't really fit as a morale bonus, maybe a resistance bonus.

    To make things fit more, I'd grant the class Fast Movement at 5th level, +10' to all movement speeds, improving by 10' at either 10/15/20 or 11/17. Then I'd say that the class chooses a bonus feat at 5th level, either Improved Grapple or Improved Trip, like the how the monk selects between two feats.

    Then I'd grant the bonus to reflex saves and initiative at 10th level. Perhaps 1/2 Cha mod, then improve it to full at 15th level.
    Sorta.
    I'd rather just leave it as is, rather than add in various names for special abilities.
    Also, a 1/2 cha modifier to two things seems really, really weak for tenth.

    So...can they be hurt in an antimagic field? If not, then why would they ever leave one? There needs to be something mundane to overcome their regen. otherwise they'll never taken anything but nonlethal damage. Hell, a Warforged with the Improved Resiliency feat is immune to all damage at that point. Frankly I just don't think the regen is a good idea.

    And I don't see how it makes sense from a flavor perspective, either. If anything, the anthiesis' beliefs should make it harder to heal. It believes, if I understand things, in the opposite of reality. In the unmaking of everything, of existence. That makes it effectively have a suicide wish but wanting to take everything along with it. That does not lend itself towards continued existence. Rather it lends itself to fading from reality.
    It doesn't believe in unreality. It uses it. It's like the cleric compared to the Ur-Priest. That said, the damage immunity is an issue. Problem is, what makes sense as a material that harms nothing. Might just go adamantium...

    Huh? You can't draw something from nothing. There isn't anything to draw. Unless you're talking about the spontaneous generation of matter and antimatter that comes from nothing? Even then, generating anything seems to go against the very foundation this class is built upon. Which is nothingness. I would think it'd be almost heresy for an antithesis of that level to resort to using existence.

    And when did they leave, so how did they return?
    Your utter shock and confusion is exactly the point. The class is meant to evoke 'Huh?! How?!?'

    Ok. And it is still way better than any constrict ability I've ever seen. Take rushing Weight of the Mountain, widely regarded as one of the best options for grapplers, and a good stance. It grants a constrict of 2d6 + 1.5 Str mod. Which is nothing compared to a successful save against Channeled Void! Reduce it to dealing damage equal to the number of dice dealt by Annihilating touch, save for half, and it is still quite strong, but probably workable.
    Really? Wow. Grappling sounds rubbish. (weakens)

    Also, from a flavor perspective, they shouldn't be able to force anything into anything. I could see them sucking some of the existence away from their target, but not forcing something in. The don't believe in something, they believe in nothing!
    Only some of them actually worship the stuff. Most of them are just using it as a means to an end.

    Damage is pretty meaningless to an Antithesis. Have it deal ability burn. They're forcing a huge amount of nonexistence through themselves, that should severely weaken their own existence in reality. And an Antithesis that kills themselves from this ability damage ceases to exist. Their soul is destroyed. They cannot be raised, ever. Even divine intervention can only replicate, it cannot bring back the original soul, for that soul has been utterly annihilated, which is what the soul believed in anyways.
    CHA damage. But Cha burn is a good idea.
    ...also, if you died that permanantly, NO-ONE would use the ability. Ever.

    Again, HP damage is pretty irrelevant to a class that grants itself Fast Healing and Regeneration. I'd go with the ability burn again. Either that or I'd reduce the range and make it take up 3-5 charges of your Annihilating Touch.
    Cha burn is a good plan.

    And I'm saying ability burn here because magic shouldn't be able to restore damage that was sacrificed to nothingness. There is nothing there for the magic to restore, and only the Antithesis' unique connection and understanding of non-existence allows him to regenerate that damage at all.
    Burn makes sense purely cause it shouldn't be easy.


    Glad you like it. The feature is still boring unfortunately. I'd grant them some small DR, the ability to heal their ability damage more quickly, maybe some type of limited Dimension Door effect as they can step through reality in patches. Actually, I'd add a few more features, and then add the note that one they die, they can never be raised. Ever. Just like if they died from their own ability burn, they have become so in tune with the opposite of existence that they simply cease.
    Agree with the first part. But not coming back would kill any class for me.

    Right, and if they don't exist then they don't exist. There can't be some esoteric "existence-within-nonexistence." That is, by definition, existence. The universe, if it has a unique will in your games, should be more than happy to let the abomination of an Antithesis fade from existence forever. And wouldn't an Antithesis not being able to leave reality be just about the worst hell for it imaginable? It believes so strongly is nothing that it has spent 19 levels of its life devoted to that belief.

    I'm honestly not sure what to do about this feature...it could be changed into a phylactery-style feature, made the level after they ascend to outsider-hood, to prevent them from being completely annihilated until their mission is complete. (Personally I can't imagine there mission to be any different from Tharzidun's, unless they are seriously deluded...which most probably are).
    You're using much too three dimensional logic. Existence-through-nonexistence is exactly the kind of non-logic they embrace.

    For destruction that complete, I'd have ti operate on a touch attack only, and I'd make them take both saves, and they'd have to fail both in order to die. If they make one save they take twice the damage of your Annihilating Touch, and if they make both they just take the normal damage of your Annihilating Touch.
    ...why? It's a save or die that disintegrates. That... isn't spectacular. Compare to Implosion, Wail of the Banshee, Phantasmal Killer, or Power Word Kill.

    As I was reading this again, I had another thought. What happens to their gear when they die with Annihilate? Does it drop to the ground? Is it damaged by the blast? Is it sucked into nothingness with them?
    Will say it hurts only living things.
    Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2011-01-21 at 05:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    5ft/4 levels seems to small... 5ft/2?
    And I'd say that it's almost all simple void energy, rather than air or sonic.
    It is small. Small enough that the entire party can reasonably operate and not all get caught in the blast. 5'/2 might work, though I would avoid getting close the the Antithesis regardless. And fair enough on the damage type. I was just picturing an implosion like what happen to Sauron in the LotR movie intro.

    Sorta.
    I'd rather just leave it as is, rather than add in various names for special abilities.
    Also, a 1/2 cha modifier to two things seems really, really weak for tenth.
    Ok
    I think that adding it as Fast Movement, an ability several other classes have, would actually help connect it to the rest of the classes, mechanically speaking.
    A little. The last idea was just speculation.

    It doesn't believe in unreality. It uses it. It's like the cleric compared to the Ur-Priest. That said, the damage immunity is an issue. Problem is, what makes sense as a material that harms nothing. Might just go adamantium...
    It may not worship unreality, but it has to believe in it to utilize it. Ur-Priests believe in the gods. And they're becoming more unreal as they grow stronger, that is one of the main focuses of the class. I see the flavor concerns as still valid.

    As for mechanical...adamantine could work, it is a decent standby. Cold iron, by virtue of it always seeming extra real (at least to me) could work too.

    Your utter shock and confusion is exactly the point. The class is meant to evoke 'Huh?! How?!?'
    That is great from an in character perspective. But from a player and DMs point of view, handwaving it like that just feels terrible and lazy. It destroys the feeling of the class. It isn't evoking "Huh? How?" It is evoking "Well that is a poorly thought out mechanic that doesn't fit with what the rest of the class focuses on."

    My own "huh, how?" Is me asking you, the creator of the class, for an explanation. If one doesn't exist, then the ability does not belong, from a flavor standpoint.

    Really? Wow. Grappling sounds rubbish. (weakens)
    Yeah, grappling is pretty weak, even when munchkined out the wazoo.

    Only some of them actually worship the stuff. Most of them are just using it as a means to an end.
    I'm not talking about worship. It is simply what they believe in a utilize. It is what is granting them power. It is what they are becoming more like. But I digress. The point was that that minor bit of flavor I felt should be changed from shoving something into their target to sucking something out.

    CHA damage. But Cha burn is a good idea.
    ...also, if you died that permanantly, NO-ONE would use the ability. Ever.
    Why not? I would. No one can force you to use the ability. So you can burn yourself down to 1 and die and still be raisable. And there should be a price for channeling the power of nonexistence. If you're down with the ability burn, then adding the rest is a feature, giving them a "heroic death" option. I'd see it as an opportunity to make a terrific story.

    Cha burn is a good plan.
    Glad you like it.

    Burn makes sense purely cause it shouldn't be easy.
    *nodnod*

    Agree with the first part. But not coming back would kill any class for me.
    There is a reason Tharzidun is imprisoned for all time by a coalition of just about every god ever. That is the price of nothingness. If you're foolhardy enough to devote yourself to its power (note I'm not saying worship. But if you've been channeling nothing-power for 18 levels, you're devoted to it, you believe in it very strongly), then you should be claimed by it upon death. The reason you're extraplanar everywhere is because your home plane is effectively nothingness.

    And that is why you make becoming an outsider grant some cool benefits, to offset the whole permadeath risk.

    You're using much too three dimensional logic. Existence-through-nonexistence is exactly the kind of non-logic they embrace.
    The Far Realms is the home of logic beyond our understanding. Nothingness is not. It is exactly what is says on the lid. Nothing.

    And it still doesn't make sense how an creature that has devoted itself to nonexistence for 19 levels would gain some type of extra resilient existence because of it.

    ...why? It's a save or die that disintegrates. That... isn't spectacular. Compare to Implosion, Wail of the Banshee, Phantasmal Killer, or Power Word Kill.
    Fair enough. The only difference is that there are ways of blocking arcane or divine spells, while as far as I can tell an AMF would be the only means of negating Eradicate. The fact that there are no defenses aside from making the save is what worries me, in addition to the fact that it always targets the lower of the two saves.

    Will say it hurts only living things.
    From a mechanical standpoint, great. From a flavor standpoint...why? Why would a nonexistence explosion not damage non-living material?



    I hope I'm not getting on your nerves, I'm just trying to offer my honest opinions and criticisms.
    Last edited by MammonAzrael; 2011-01-21 at 06:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    It is small. Small enough that the entire party can reasonably operate and not all get caught in the blast. 5'/2 might work, though I would avoid getting close the the Antithesis regardless. And fair enough on the damage type. I was just picturing an implosion like what happen to Sauron in the LotR movie intro.
    Fair enough. 5/2.

    Ok
    I think that adding it as Fast Movement, an ability several other classes have, would actually help connect it to the rest of the classes, mechanically speaking.
    A little. The last idea was just speculation.
    I guess... :/

    It may not worship unreality, but it has to believe in it to utilize it. Ur-Priests believe in the gods. And they're becoming more unreal as they grow stronger, that is one of the main focuses of the class. I see the flavor concerns as still valid.

    As for mechanical...adamantine could work, it is a decent standby. Cold iron, by virtue of it always seeming extra real (at least to me) could work too.
    Eh, semantic difference. They don't worship it, but just channel it for their own use.

    That is great from an in character perspective. But from a player and DMs point of view, handwaving it like that just feels terrible and lazy. It destroys the feeling of the class. It isn't evoking "Huh? How?" It is evoking "Well that is a poorly thought out mechanic that doesn't fit with what the rest of the class focuses on."

    My own "huh, how?" Is me asking you, the creator of the class, for an explanation. If one doesn't exist, then the ability does not belong, from a flavor standpoint.
    I think I had a reason, and I can't remember what. (groan) Can I steal the one you presented? XD

    I'm not talking about worship. It is simply what they believe in a utilize. It is what is granting them power. It is what they are becoming more like. But I digress. The point was that that minor bit of flavor I felt should be changed from shoving something into their target to sucking something out.
    Eeh. I guess?

    Why not? I would. No one can force you to use the ability. So you can burn yourself down to 1 and die and still be raisable. And there should be a price for channeling the power of nonexistence. If you're down with the ability burn, then adding the rest is a feature, giving them a "heroic death" option. I'd see it as an opportunity to make a terrific story.
    I just don't like it. :/

    There is a reason Tharzidun is imprisoned for all time by a coalition of just about every god ever. That is the price of nothingness. If you're foolhardy enough to devote yourself to its power (note I'm not saying worship. But if you've been channeling nothing-power for 18 levels, you're devoted to it, you believe in it very strongly), then you should be claimed by it upon death. The reason you're extraplanar everywhere is because your home plane is effectively nothingness.

    And that is why you make becoming an outsider grant some cool benefits, to offset the whole permadeath risk.
    Eeehhh. There is no precedent for permadeath. That's why I don't like it.

    The Far Realms is the home of logic beyond our understanding. Nothingness is not. It is exactly what is says on the lid. Nothing.

    And it still doesn't make sense how an creature that has devoted itself to nonexistence for 19 levels would gain some type of extra resilient existence because of it.
    To be honest, I was BSing until I came up with an idea...
    Ooh! Idea!
    How can you kill something that doesn't exist, hmmm?

    Fair enough. The only difference is that there are ways of blocking arcane or divine spells, while as far as I can tell an AMF would be the only means of negating Eradicate. The fact that there are no defenses aside from making the save is what worries me, in addition to the fact that it always targets the lower of the two saves.
    Truuuue, but you do need to make an attack roll, which none of them do.

    From a mechanical standpoint, great. From a flavor standpoint...why? Why would a nonexistence explosion not damage non-living material?
    Umm... because... it refers to nothingness of the mind?
    ...I don't know. DX

    I hope I'm not getting on your nerves, I'm just trying to offer my honest opinions and criticisms.
    I appreciate it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Before hitting the quote, I just want to say that nothingness is hard. it took humans a long time to even invent the concept of the number zero. So bravo for trying to turn the concept into an entire class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    I guess... :/
    I sense your reluctance. I'll give you the table, and you can decide if you like the way it looks.
    {table=head]Level|
    Base Attack[br]Bonus
    |Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|
    Fast[br]Movement

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Annihilating Touch, Annihilate|
    --

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Beyond Reality|
    --

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Void Strength|
    --

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Annihilating Blade|
    --

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Speed of the Nonexistant|
    +10'

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Bolt of Nothing|
    +10'

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Universal Persistence|
    +10'

    8th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Energised Annihilation|
    +10'

    9th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Channeled Void|
    +10'

    10th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Tremendous Speed|
    +20'

    11th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Void Overload|
    +20'

    12th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Far Beyond Reality|
    +20'

    13th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Nothing-Storm|
    +20'

    14th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |Greater Persistence|
    +20'

    15th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |Spirit Link|
    +30'

    16th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Void Burn|
    +30'

    17th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Knowledge Annihilation|
    +30'

    18th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Unreality|
    +30'

    19th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Permanence|
    +30'

    20th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |Eradicate|
    +40'
    [/table]

    Eh, semantic difference. They don't worship it, but just channel it for their own use.
    I just have a hard time seeing that use as being able to be anything other than destructive. I think DR would make more sense, as they become more resistant to existence, and thus existing things have a harder time damaging them.

    I think I had a reason, and I can't remember what. (groan) Can I steal the one you presented? XD
    You're more than welcome to. Unfortunately the only reason I've presented in regards to Energized Annihilation is that the class feature should be removed, as it doesn't make sense from a flavor stand point.

    However, I don't think that it is entirely a lost cause, and that if you really want them capable of energy damage we can figure something out with some thought.

    Eeh. I guess?
    Doesn't affect the class mechanically, just a minor flavor quibble Do what feels right to you.

    I just don't like it. :/
    Fair enough. And you shouldn't...no one should like the idea of absolute nothingness. Which is why these Antithesis guys are nuts. All I was saying it that there would be no way to permanently kill yourself unless you chose to.

    Eeehhh. There is no precedent for permadeath. That's why I don't like it.
    There is no precedent for a class based on the concept of nothing, either. Also, I'd say Soul Bind is certainly a step on the path towards the concept of permadeath. And if any class would introduce that concept, I would vote for this one. Besides, permanent death is standard for most creatures anyways...and a fair sight better than the eternity some wind up with. It also allows you to buff up the features granted.

    And from a purely player perspective, what is so prohibitive about permadeath? How often do you, or anyone, really have characters that die just to get raised again?

    To be honest, I was BSing until I came up with an idea...
    Ooh! Idea!
    How can you kill something that doesn't exist, hmmm?
    You can't. But something that truly doesn't exist...doesn't exist. And therefore cannot interact in existence at all. Which is effectively being dead. Except more so.

    I'm really liking the idea of making them immortal lich-style, with a kind of phylactery. Especially if they're making it in response to their sudden elevation to Outsider-hood and the potential of permadeath. There is even a precedent with the Dread Necromancer. So you'd only be notably vulnerable to permadeath in the time between your 18th and 19th level, as you prepared your phylactery.

    Truuuue, but you do need to make an attack roll, which none of them do.
    Fair enough.

    Umm... because... it refers to nothingness of the mind?
    ...I don't know. DX
    Heh. I don't think its a big deal in the larger scheme of things.

    I appreciate it!
    Glad I could help!
    Last edited by MammonAzrael; 2011-01-21 at 07:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Before hitting the quote, I just want to say that nothingness is hard. it took humans a long time to even invent the concept of the number zero. So bravo for trying to turn the concept into an entire class.
    Like I said, it was a challenge, not my plan. xD

    I sense your reluctance. I'll give you the table, and you can decide if you like the way it looks.
    {table=head]Level|
    Base Attack<br>Bonus
    |Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|
    Fast<br>Movement

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Annihilating Touch, Annihilate|
    --

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Beyond Reality|
    --

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Void Strength|
    --

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Annihilating Blade|
    --

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Speed of the Nonexistant|
    +10'

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Bolt of Nothing|
    +10'

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Universal Persistence|
    +10'

    8th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Energised Annihilation|
    +10'

    9th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Channeled Void|
    +10'

    10th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Tremendous Speed|
    +20'

    11th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Void Overload|
    +20'

    12th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Far Beyond Reality|
    +20'

    13th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Nothing-Storm|
    +20'

    14th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |Greater Persistence|
    +20'

    15th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |Spirit Link|
    +30'

    16th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Void Burn|
    +30'

    17th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Knowledge Annihilation|
    +30'

    18th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Unreality|
    +30'

    19th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Permanence|
    +30'

    20th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |Eradicate|
    +40'
    [/table]
    That does look good. It's probably just that I didn't want to edit stuff at this hour. DXD

    I just have a hard time seeing that use as being able to be anything other than destructive. I think DR would make more sense, as they become more resistant to existence, and thus existing things have a harder time damaging them.
    It seemed the natural extension to the fast healing.

    You're more than welcome to. Unfortunately the only reason I've presented in regards to Energized Annihilation is that the class feature should be removed, as it doesn't make sense from a flavor stand point.

    However, I don't think that it is entirely a lost cause, and that if you really want them capable of energy damage we can figure something out with some thought.
    Please do?

    Fair enough. And you shouldn't...no one should like the idea of absolute nothingness. Which is why these Antithesis guys are nuts. All I was saying it that there would be no way to permanently kill yourself unless you chose to.
    I... ehh. I just doubt it would come up very often.

    There is no precedent for a class based on the concept of nothing, either. Also, I'd say Soul Bind is certainly a step on the path towards the concept of permadeath. And if any class would introduce that concept, I would vote for this one. Besides, permanent death is standard for most creatures anyways...and a fair sight better than the eternity some wind up with. It also allows you to buff up the features granted.

    And from a purely player perspective, what is so prohibitive about permadeath? How often do you, or anyone, really have characters that die just to get raised again?
    Rarely, but I wouldn't play a class which made it impossible. xD

    You can't. But something that truly doesn't exist...doesn't exist. And therefore cannot interact in existence at all. Which is effectively being dead. Except more so.
    But the point is they stop existing, and somehow keep interacting. And if they're doing that, how is death gonna stop them?

    I'm really liking the idea of making them immortal lich-style, with a kind of phylactery. Especially if they're making it in response to their sudden elevation to Outsider-hood and the potential of permadeath. There is even a precedent with the Dread Necromancer. So you'd only be notably vulnerable to permadeath in the time between your 18th and 19th level, as you prepared your phylactery.
    Hmm... maybe you could combine it with the previous point. They barely exist anymore, and they have a 'fetter' to keep them bound to existence? When they die, they reform there?
    Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2011-01-21 at 08:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    I think some of your replies got lost in the middle there.
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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Ack.
    Too late for this...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Lol, then go to bed! I've got some stuff to do before I do another long replay anyways.
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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    But I don't wanna sleeep.... DXD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Lix.. Nice to see you to again. And I seem to remember telling you this class was way overpowered a long time ago when I tried to help you playtest it.. In any case, glad to see the improvement. I'm also terribly surprised I didn't see you in my recruitment thread.
    Last edited by mrcarter11; 2011-01-21 at 08:45 PM.
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    Strength-13
    Dexterity-12
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    Intelligence-15
    Wisdom-11
    Charisma-13

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Haha, yes, it was you. You were right. xD
    ...but not about what you said you were.

    I haven't been playing much d&d. Exalted out-awesomes it by a factor of several googleplex.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    I like this. I'll edit in a review tomorrow, I'm too tired now.

    (I've seen this somewhere before. Lix, have you made a thread with this class in it before? I don't think it was in a contest, I never look at contest threads.)

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Thank you!
    (is now awake!)

    (Only place it has been is the Nothing contest. I tried to use it in a game once, DMed by mrcarter11, but the game died.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    That does look good. It's probably just that I didn't want to edit stuff at this hour. DXD
    Cool, then I'm glad I wrote it up!

    It seemed the natural extension to the fast healing.
    I agree the regeneration is a natural extension of fast healing. I was saying I'm not quite sure how fast healing fits flavor wise. But it isn't that bad, I'm just trying to come up with a way to phrase it in my mind.

    Please do?
    Well...do you specifically want they to get a damage boost, or be capable of elemental damage, or anything else?

    I... ehh. I just doubt it would come up very often.
    I agree. So why not add the flavor?

    Rarely, but I wouldn't play a class which made it impossible. xD
    Fair enough. Differing play styles.

    But the point is they stop existing, and somehow keep interacting. And if they're doing that, how is death gonna stop them?

    Hmm... maybe you could combine it with the previous point. They barely exist anymore, and they have a 'fetter' to keep them bound to existence? When they die, they reform there?
    That is a little how I'm envisioning it. They "ascend" at 18th level, becoming outsiders, and somehow merging with "nothingness" to a degree where they still exist, but it is a thin existence. Should they die once ascending the nothingness claims them, and they vanish (death wouldn't be stopping them, not existing would be). So they get to work on building a way to retain their presence in existence. And then, the very next level the gain a phylactery that allows then to regenerate from destruction instead of disappearing as long as the phylactery is around.
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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Cool, then I'm glad I wrote it up!
    xD

    I agree the regeneration is a natural extension of fast healing. I was saying I'm not quite sure how fast healing fits flavor wise. But it isn't that bad, I'm just trying to come up with a way to phrase it in my mind.
    A more minor form of the later immortality thing? Since they don't completely exist, their wounds don't exist either?

    Well...do you specifically want they to get a damage boost, or be capable of elemental damage, or anything else?
    I specifically wanted to give them elemental damage.

    I agree. So why not add the flavor?
    ...fine, you've convinced me. DXD

    Fair enough. Differing play styles.
    Likely. xD

    That is a little how I'm envisioning it. They "ascend" at 18th level, becoming outsiders, and somehow merging with "nothingness" to a degree where they still exist, but it is a thin existence. Should they die once ascending the nothingness claims them, and they vanish (death wouldn't be stopping them, not existing would be). So they get to work on building a way to retain their presence in existence. And then, the very next level the gain a phylactery that allows then to regenerate from destruction instead of disappearing as long as the phylactery is around.
    That makes sense, and I can't think of a valid objection.
    Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2011-01-22 at 02:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    A more minor form of the later immortality thing? Since they don't completely exist, their wounds don't exist either?
    There ya go! Its flavorful and it works.

    I specifically wanted to give them elemental damage.
    Ok. I'll let you know if I think of anything!

    ...fine, you've convinced me. DXD

    Likely. xD

    That makes sense, and I can't think of a valid objection.
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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Yay!
    Will edit in when I don't feel asleep. xD It's only 9pm what is wrong with me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Well, that took me a while.

    Regardless! Revamped Permanence in fluff and mechanics. Also, changed Eradicate to be more Wow factor, and possibly slightly weaker or possibly slightly stronger. Almost changed Elemental Annihilation to do 1d10, realised that was higher average than 2d4. Nearly changed down to 1d3/2 class levels, realised that was way less than the warlock which isn't a great damage dealer.

    So uh. Ideally, this is a final version.

    ...also, it's nice being able to cast necromancy. Hooray for the homebrew forum!

    (RAISE THREAD!)
    Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2011-07-29 at 03:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    NOOO! I was going to make an Antithesis-themed bloodline!
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    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Uh.
    Go ahead? XD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Uh.
    Go ahead? XD
    Well it was going to be my first bloodline in a while that wasn't based off of the work of other people. Oh well, I may still make it...

    Ignoring that, amazing work. I'll read it through in further detail when I have time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Ah. Sorry. I made this ages ago, if it helps. xD

    Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    The 1d4 damage per level of Annihilating Touch is a bit much. The limitation to uses makes it a bit more fair, but at the same time I would rather have the main feature of the class usable at will even if it is weaker (maybe 1d4 or 1d6 per 2 levels).
    If you couple this with energized annihilation the amount of damage you would deal is unbelievable (even with the nerf I suggested). I'm also not sure how well it fits in with the class...

    Channeled Void is fine because it requires a successful grapple.

    I like the idea annihilate presents of using the opponents hd against them, but 1d3 is weird. I would change it to 1d4 - 1 per hd, or maybe 1d6 per 2 hd.

    The 1d2 for void burn is weird. I would just drop it to 1 ability damage.

    Unreality is cool. I like the idea that nothing can never call any place home.

    Eradicate is pretty awesome, but is really powerful. I might limit its uses to once per day or once per day per an ability modifier.

    Permanence seems fine. I have seen several abilities, even in the official errata that do that. I'm not sure how well that fits the fluff though...

    edit- the other concern I have is that it has a set progression with absolutely no choices to be made by the player.
    Last edited by eftexar; 2011-07-29 at 04:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    Responses in bold!
    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    The 1d4 damage per level of Annihilating Touch is a bit much. The limitation to uses makes it a bit more fair, but at the same time I would rather have the main feature of the class usable at will even if it is weaker (maybe 1d4 or 1d6 per 2 levels).
    If you couple this with energized annihilation the amount of damage you would deal is unbelievable (even with the nerf I suggested). I'm also not sure how well it fits in with the class...
    |I disagree. If you look at the warlock, it does 1d6/two levels, and is considered not very good at damage output. Although this does more damage, I don't consider it a bug. It's a feature.

    Channeled Void is fine because it requires a successful grapple.

    I like the idea annihilate presents of using the opponents hd against them, but 1d3 is weird. I would change it to 1d4 - 1 per hd, or maybe 1d6 per 2 hd.
    The idea of ending up doing no damage with any one attack bugs me. It should do a pretty fixed amount of damage.

    The 1d2 for void burn is weird. I would just drop it to 1 ability damage.
    Hmm. I probably had a reason for that, but I don't remember. You may be right. (changes)

    Unreality is cool. I like the idea that nothing can never call any place home.
    Thanks.

    Eradicate is pretty awesome, but is really powerful. I might limit its uses to once per day or once per day per an ability modifier.
    Imagine a Sorcerer who knows Finger of death. Minimum of 6 times a day, he can say 'make a fort save or die.' Eradicate isn't even that strong. I'm not aiming for Sorcerer level power here, but that's not good.

    Permanence seems fine. I have seen several abilities, even in the official errata that do that. I'm not sure how well that fits the fluff though...
    Thanks.

    edit- the other concern I have is that it has a set progression with absolutely no choices to be made by the player.
    ...huh. That IS a good point. Any advice?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: Antithesis [3.5 Nothing Themed Class, PEACH needed]

    My suggestion, for adding options, would be to add a 'choose an ability' progression, sort of like the rogue but throughout the entire class. I would then take some of the abilities you have listed in the class that aren't absolutely necessary to the build of the class (however you may determine that) and put them in the progression.
    Anyways my point about the 1d3 is, is there even a 1d3 dice to roll? If not, you should keep in mind that not everyone uses an online roller.
    As for your point about the sorcerer, it is a fair point, but I happen to think casters are overpowered to begin with. Again that is just my personal opinion and part of the reason I have started a project on redoing the base classes.
    And now I go off to watch thundercats, to relive my childhood...

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