Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"

[Nameless Ghost]

Since we play at 1000 points we agreed on not taking anything worth more then ~200 points, because it tends to rip most things apart (Fateweaver was actually responsible for that decision ).

Of course Fateweaver would be a huge drain of points at 1000 points and probably not worthwhile as a result anyway. The Oracle works most effectively when your guys already have good saves or when you have lots of little guys for him to bolster and it's pretty much impossible to build an army like this at such a low points level, specially when Fateweaver has eaten 1/3 of the points up before you even begin.

I could cut back on Pink Horrors a little, take one or two out, but that just makes them easier targets.
But still, I think that should work.

What job are the Horrors fulfilling? My experience is that you need a lot of them to really put any amount of hurt on anything well armoured and a single squad won't be that effective. If they are soaking up wounds for your Herald, well see below anyway and if they're trying to pop tanks with Bolt, a Chariot of Tzeentch with Bolt/Mastery is more effective anyway and can tarpit units in combat if need be.

Rather than run the Herald of Tzeentch attached to the squad, I would use the Blue Scribes. For 35 points more, you're getting a Disk and access to every shooting attack in the book. When you don't have all that many units and the ones you do have are likely going to be specialists, the versatility they bring is incredible. How many points would any other army pay for a Psyker who had access to that many powers and could use two a turn against different targets and then had a jump pack just thrown in for free too?

Daemon Princes
As far as effectiveness goes, I think Tzeentch and Nurgle Daemon Princes are the best, for close combat an shooting respectively. A Nurgle Prince gets s huge boost in survivability being T6. Although Krak and Las don't care, it prevents the Prince from being relatively easily torrented down by small arms fire. A typical loadout for a Nurgle Prince would be Mark of Nurgle, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch and Cloud of Flies and comes to 155 points (215 with Flight).

This gives you 5 2+ to wound poisoned power weapon attacks on the charge at I5, which is likely to tear through just about anything. With T6 and a 3+/5++, you can likely shrug off any attacks from survivors and ensure you win the combat. You still fear Power Fists, but only so much as the next Monstrous Creature.

Bloodcrushers and Fiends
Bloodcrushers cost as much as an Assault Terminator and function similarly. You trade the 2+/3++ and the THammer for S6 power weapon attacks and T5 with 2 wounds, meaning you're very effective at killing Marines of all flavours but lack the ability to deal with the targets that THammer Termies would. Actually, I'd say they compare fairly well against LClaw Termies.

If you're looking to use Bloodletters for killing things in armour, Bloodcrushers will do it better (and from daemonic rhino-back!). Of course they aren't scoring, but neither are dead Bloodletters. Or Fiends. Not that such things matter if you're only playing Annihilation-style type missions. If you start playing games with objectives, Plaguebearers become very useful.

I prefer Fiends to Bloodcrushers because of their mobility. They might be a little harder to use effectively because you can't rely on the defences of a Bloodcrushers, but they're able to hurt a wider range of targets. The Fleet+12" charge makes a huge difference over the 6" charge of a Bloodcrusher as it allows you to drop further back, ideally behind terrain or other units for cover and prevents vehicles from escaping by just moving 12" away.

So, following the basic structure of your army, I would rebuild it like this:

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HQ
The Blue Scribes [130]

ELITES
5 Fiends of Slaanesh [150]

TROOPS
8 Bloodletters [128]

9 Pink Horrors [168]
Bolt of Tzeentch, Changeling

HEAVY SUPPORT
Daemon Prince [210]
Mark of Nurgle, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch, Daemonic Flight

Daemon Prince [210]
Mark of Nurgle, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch, Daemonic Flight

996 points

I cut the Icons and the Clouds on the Troops and the Princes respectively to get it down to 1000. I think you're usually better with more models than Icons, at least when you're tight on points.

The Changling is just brilliant when he works and in my opinion, always worth the mere 5 points he costs. After all, watching a squad of Fire Dragons about face and melta the Falcon they just stepped out of is priceless.

[Turcano]

I approve of this thread title. We seem to be introducing an ongoing Monty Python theme into our titles, huh?

And, these are awesome, Turcano.

They aren't mine; it's just a pic I found on 1d4chan. But it fit the title too well to not use.

[Arcanoi]

Daemon Prince [210]

Full stop. You just spent 210 points on a decidedly mediocre Monstrous Creature. You could be a Bloodthirster with 40 points more. You could be a Keeper of Secrets for less. In my opinion, there are only two worthwhile Daemon Prince builds in <1500pts.

I
Daemon Prince - 80pts
(For a third and final option, after 1500pts, you can add Mark of Nurgle or Tzeentch - 105/110pts)

II
Daemon Prince - 135pts
- is a Soul Grinder

He could have three Soul Grinders for less than those two geared-out Princes.

[Sila Prirode]

What job are the Horrors fulfilling?
Rather than run the Herald of Tzeentch attached to the squad, I would use the Blue Scribes.

Currently nothing, more on that later. Also, Herald is now solo, on a Chariot.

Daemon Princes
As far as effectiveness goes, I think Tzeentch and Nurgle Daemon Princes are the best, for close combat an shooting respectively. A typical loadout for a Nurgle Prince would be Mark of Nurgle, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch and Cloud of Flies and comes to 155 points (215 with Flight).

Yes, I'm keeping Tzeentch Prince for shooting and meleeing infantry, and busting tanks. And as for Nurgle, also later.

So, following the basic structure of your army, I would rebuild it like this:

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HQ
The Blue Scribes [130]

ELITES
5 Fiends of Slaanesh [150]

TROOPS
8 Bloodletters [128]

9 Pink Horrors [168]
Bolt of Tzeentch, Changeling

HEAVY SUPPORT
Daemon Prince [210]
Mark of Nurgle, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch, Daemonic Flight

Daemon Prince [210]
Mark of Nurgle, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch, Daemonic Flight

996 points

I cut the Icons and the Clouds on the Troops and the Princes respectively to get it down to 1000. I think you're usually better with more models than Icons, at least when you're tight on points.

The Changling is just brilliant when he works and in my opinion, always worth the mere 5 points he costs. After all, watching a squad of Fire Dragons about face and melta the Falcon they just stepped out of is priceless.

First of all, thanks for all the help

I swaped Slaanesh Prince for Nurgle, but I can't seem to find enough points for Flight. Icons are discarded (because they really don't serve any purpose), and Heralds are on their own now (with Chariots). I'm keeping Herald of Khorne for busting open some big things. With Fury of Khorne he can even take on tanks. Herald of Tzeentch is promoted to tank buster, due to Jet Bike (Chariot).
As for Nurgle Prince, I don't really think then need Noxius Touch, because with big S they have by default I don't think there will be problems with wounding.
Soul Grinders are not my cup of tea, they are too big, to vulnerable, and they lack decent BS for making good use of their ranged weapons. They do look awesome, but I find them not worthy enough, at least in 1000 points bracket.

My main concern now are Pink Horrors, because right now I'm taking them just for Changeling, and I'm not fond of that idea.
Note: I had few spare points floating so I gave Death Strike to Herald of Khorne, any ideas where can I use that points better?

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HQ
Herald of Khorne - 95 Points
Chariot, Fury of Khorne, Death Strike

Herald of Tzeentch - 110 points
Bolt of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, We Are Legion, Chariot

ELITES
Fiends of Slaanesh (x6) - 180 Points

TROOPS
Bloodletters (x9) - 144 Points

Pink Horrors (x8) - 151 Points
Bolt of Tzeentch, Changeling

HEAVY SUPPORT
Daemon Prince - 145 Points
Mark of Nurgle, Cloud of Flies, Iron Hide

Daemon Prince - 160 Points
Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Tzeentch, Daemonic Gaze

Total: 1000 Points

[Zorg]

What codex ideas would those be? Almost every single page is merely some variation on "This page does not yet contain any content." I'm not trying to discourage anyone, but I've learned the hard way about putting up a shared-content site without some seed material to give it substance from day one; you waste the launch period as people find nothing to hold their interest and it's hard to get that back. If you're looking for original content, I have been working on Codex: Reasonable Marines just for giggles, but I'm not sure that sort of thing is what you're after.

On the forum.

Edit now I'm back from that wedding: More specifically there are some 20 odd codx ideas people have put up for development, and it's more designed as a space/resource base to get people working/talking about fandexes.
Since there's never been anything like it there's not really much they could have put up (though I do agree they should have done more of a 'wind up' before the launch).

[Nameless Ghost]

Full stop. You just spent 210 points on a decidedly mediocre Monstrous Creature. You could be a Bloodthirster with 40 points more. You could be a Keeper of Secrets for less. In my opinion, there are only two worthwhile Daemon Prince builds in <1500pts.

I
Daemon Prince - 80pts
(For a third and final option, after 1500pts, you can add Mark of Nurgle or Tzeentch - 105/110pts)

True, 210 points is quite a lot. Cutting Flight puts them at only 150 each but I think you need Flight to be relevant. It makes the Prince a threat that can't just be ignored for a turn.

Okay, a basic Prince is only 80 points, but what does that actually get you? 2 Bloodcrushers bring the same number of wounds but are harder to kill and more powerful in combat.

II
Daemon Prince - 135pts
- is a Soul Grinder

He could have three Soul Grinders for less than those two geared-out Princes.

Grinders suffer from being the only vehicle target in an army of infantry. Taking Grinders means you're taking less Monstrous Creatures, which would be the subject of anti-tank fire otherwise. So while the Grinders are pretty much immune to med-strength suppression fire, they fall just as easily as anything else to anti-tank guns. Hey lookie, you're dropping this close combat walker in range of my meltaguns? Okay, thanks (and this is why I dislike Ironclads, by the way. And Ironclads are more likely to down something on the turn they drop than the Grinder).

If your Grinders don't all drop on the first turn, they might come in piecemeal, which pretty much ensures their doom because it's likely feeding the opponent one or two vehicles a turn for all of their anti-tank to fire at.

If you buy the Mawcannon upgrades you're going to be sitting back and firing from a distance, but with BS3 the Tongue attack is unreliable at best and the Phlegm template will scatter a fair bit. Playing Tau has shown me just how ineffective BS3 and single shots can be at times.

Relying on the Mawcannon means the Grinder suffers from one-gun syndrome the same as a Vindicator or Hammerhead does. At least the Grinder can try to tear stuff up in combat though, just as long as it doesn't go near any other Walkers or Monstrous Creatures, because then it's WS and I3 will ensure it loses.

Or is there something the Soul Grinder does effectively that I'm overlooking?

(Re-reading this I'm noticing it might come off as a bit abrasive. That's not the intention.)

As for Nurgle Prince, I don't really think then need Noxius Touch, because with big S they have by default I don't think there will be problems with wounding.

You'll be surprised how many 1s and 2s you roll to wound. Or maybe I just fail at rolling dice.
The way I look at it is that buying Unholy Might costs you 15 points. This makes you a bit more effective against vehicles and you wound most infantry on a 2+. Personally I don't want to be breaking open tanks in assault with my Daemon Princes. Noxious Touch is cheaper than Unholy Might and you'll usually have the reroll to wound. It also makes the Nurgle Prince that much more effective against other Monstrous Creatures.

My main concern now are Pink Horrors, because right now I'm taking them just for Changeling, and I'm not fond of that idea.

In that case you could drop them. Daemonettes are effective against light infantry in combat, but I find them a bit too squishy so I would just go with another unit of Bloodletters to fulfil the Troop requirement. Plaguebearers are good for holding objectives, but rather poor at killing things themselves. They do make a good place to put an Icon though and can be effective at holding up units so that your assault units can get the charge.

Note: I had few spare points floating so I gave Death Strike to Herald of Khorne, any ideas where can I use that points better?

It's not really worth it. It's not reliable enough to use as anti-tank and not killy enough to really soften a unit up before you charge in. As you're likely striking first in close combat anyway, and likely hitting on 3s rather than 4s, it makes more sense to spend the points on close combat upgrades rather than shooting.

Oh, and how have you (or will you) convert(ed) the Chariots? I've been meaning to build a few and never got around to it.

[Sila Prirode]

The way I look at it is that buying Unholy Might costs you 15 points.

Well I can always drop Death Strike from Herald and put Unholy Might on Nurgle Prince. Which seems like a great idea actually.

In that case you could drop them. Daemonettes are effective against light infantry in combat, but I find them a bit too squishy so I would just go with another unit of Bloodletters to fulfil the Troop requirement. Plaguebearers are good for holding objectives, but rather poor at killing things themselves. They do make a good place to put an Icon though and can be effective at holding up units so that your assault units can get the charge.

Yes, I thought about putting more Bloodletters, because I don't like the Daemonettes (Seekers of Slaanesh are so much better), and Plaguebearers don't have any real use in our games. But then I am at severe disadvantage when it comes to terrain, because Bloodletters aren't really fastest when it comes to assaulting.

Oh, and how have you (or will you) convert(ed) the Chariots? I've been meaning to build a few and never got around to it.

Well you need one Juggernaut for starters. Then find something fitting for your Herald to ride in. I plan on modifying old army soldiers cart (from this plastic toys http://www.toygunsnow.com/pictures/80.jpg), repaint, add some spikes, skulls, and similiar. then you just connect it with your Juggernaut, with a piece of string or copper wire.
As for Tzeentch Herald, you can go the obvious route, using 2 Screamers and then something for him to stand on (you can use those mini CD-roms). Or you can go wild, for example mount him on big floating eye, or crumpled paper painted in all the colors of the rainbow, or something like that. You know, magic shapeshifting stuff and all that .D

[Arcanoi]

True, 210 points is quite a lot. Cutting Flight puts them at only 150 each but I think you need Flight to be relevant. It makes the Prince a threat that can't just be ignored for a turn.

Okay, a basic Prince is only 80 points, but what does that actually get you? 2 Bloodcrushers bring the same number of wounds but are harder to kill and more powerful in combat.

You're paying the cost of nearly another Prince just to make sure he gets there a turn earlier. And sure, it's efficient once you've already doubled his cost. But you should ask yourself; are two of your Daemon Princes really as effective as three bare-bones princes and four bloodcrushers? Are 8 T6 wounds really better than 20 T5 ones? How about 10 2+ poison attacks versus 15 S5 and 12 S6 attacks?

A bare-bones Prince is still a Monstrous Creature that will beat any non-assault squad handily, and is still T5 W4 with a 5+ invul. And it gives you more units, which is helpful for daemons.

Grinders suffer from being the only vehicle target in an army of infantry. Taking Grinders means you're taking less Monstrous Creatures, which would be the subject of anti-tank fire otherwise.

If my opponent has enough High-S weaponry at 1000 points to drop three grinders in a turn, well, good on him. Soul Grinders are amongst the best vehicles in the game, and at 1000 points, enough fire to drop them is rare.

So while the Grinders are pretty much immune to med-strength suppression fire, they fall just as easily as anything else to anti-tank guns. Hey lookie, you're dropping this close combat walker in range of my meltaguns? Okay, thanks (and this is why I dislike Ironclads, by the way. And Ironclads are more likely to down something on the turn they drop than the Grinder).

The same meltas that are going to somehow fail to kill your ludicrously overpriced princes?

If you buy the Mawcannon upgrades you're going to be sitting back and firing from a distance, but with BS3 the Tongue attack is unreliable at best and the Phlegm template will scatter a fair bit.

Well this is just a terrible idea. Daemons, unfortunately, are really bad at shooting.

At least the Grinder can try to tear stuff up in combat though, just as long as it doesn't go near any other Walkers or Monstrous Creatures, because then it's WS and I3 will ensure it loses.

Anything that can't be S9 or S6+2d6 won't win against the Grinder. Even then, the vehicle rules still make it hard to kill.

Or is there something the Soul Grinder does effectively that I'm overlooking?

Yes. The thing that the Soul Grinder does effectively is do essentially everything it can with a modicum of efficiency. The Soul Grinder is one of the few models in the game that can describe itself as 'generalist' and still be useful. It can win against elites that are more expensive than it, or tie them up, or roast swathes of light infantry, or kill vehicles. While being AV13.

Oh, and how have you (or will you) convert(ed) the Chariots? I've been
meaning to build a few and never got around to it.

I used this, with Bloodcrushers instead of horses, for my Skulltaker On Chariot.

[Sila Prirode]

You're paying the cost of nearly another Prince just to make sure he gets there a turn earlier.

In this case, I'm paying double cost for being almost unkillable. Mark of Nurgle and Iron Hide makes him T6 W4 with armor save 3+ and invulnerable save 5+.
I think it's much better to survive one more turn then to drop another one, because of the random chance of dropping.

If my opponent has enough High-S weaponry at 1000 points to drop three grinders in a turn, well, good on him. Soul Grinders are amongst the best vehicles in the game, and at 1000 points, enough fire to drop them is rare.

Well, thing is, they do. For example, friend with Tau army has two Hammerheads, and two Broadsides, both able to turn vehicles into pasta.

[Nameless Ghost]

You're paying the cost of nearly another Prince just to make sure he gets there a turn earlier. And sure, it's efficient once you've already doubled his cost. But you should ask yourself; are two of your Daemon Princes really as effective as three bare-bones princes and four bloodcrushers? Are 8 T6 wounds really better than 20 T5 ones? How about 10 2+ poison attacks versus 15 S5 and 12 S6 attacks?

I'll conceed that the Bloodcrushers are more killy than the equivalent points of the Daemon Princes I listed, just as they are more effective than the basic Daemon Prince.

You're also forgetting to take into account that the Nurgle Princes have a 3+ armour save. 8 T6 3+ wounds are more difficult to kill with small arms fire than 20 T5 5++ wounds. Assuming S4 guns, it takes 18 hits to put a wound on the Nurgle Prince while it takes much less to wound the basic ones. So yes.

A bare-bones Prince is still a Monstrous Creature that will beat any non-assault squad handily, and is still T5 W4 with a 5+ invul. And it gives you more units, which is helpful for daemons.

A 5++ save isn't particularly impressive, especially when you have nothing else to rely on.

The same meltas that are going to somehow fail to kill your ludicrously overpriced princes?

The key point being that a melta can destroy a Soul Grinder in one shot, while it would require at least 4 to kill a Daemon Prince. It's rare that there's enough anti-tank firepower to do 8 wounds worth of damage in a single turn but it is fairly likely that anti-tank firepower could destroy 3 vehicles. Of course, the random whims of the dice determine everything in the end, averages be damned.

Well this is just a terrible idea. Daemons, unfortunately, are really bad at shooting.

I believe this was my point.
Well, I suppose a few units are passable. It really is ridiculous just how expensive the majority of the shooting is. A BS4 Bolt of Tzeentch costs 30 points why exactly?

Anything that can't be S9 or S6+2d6 won't win against the Grinder. Even then, the vehicle rules still make it hard to kill.

In a comparison between two Walkers, the vehicle rules benefit both and therefore are irrelevant. The Soul Grinder loses out because of its lower WS and I even if it is likely to have more attacks.

Yes. The thing that the Soul Grinder does effectively is do essentially everything it can with a modicum of efficiency. The Soul Grinder is one of the few models in the game that can describe itself as 'generalist' and still be useful. It can win against elites that are more expensive than it, or tie them up, or roast swathes of light infantry, or kill vehicles. While being AV13.

I don't think that it is effective enough at any role to justify not excelling at any, but we'll probably just have to disagree on that.

[crazedloon]

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HQ
Shas'El Commander - 145 Points
Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Cyclic Ion Blaster, Targetting Array
Hard-Wired Drone Controller, Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker, Stimulant Injector
+Shield Drones (x2)

ELITE
XV8 Crisis Team (x3) - 186 Points
Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

XV8 Crisis Team (x3) - 186 Points
Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

XV8 Crisis Team (x3) - 186 Points
Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

TROOPS
Fire Warrior Team (x9) - 115 Points
Shas'Ui Team Leader, Markerlight, Bonding Knife

Fire Warrior Team (x6) - 85 Points
Shas'Ui Team Leader, Markerlight, Bonding Knife

Kroot Carnivore Squad (x10) - 70 Points

Kroot Carnivore Squad (x10) - 70 Points

FAST ATTACK
Pathfinder Team (x5) - 155
+Devilfish, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker

Pathfinder Team (x5) - 155
+Devilfish, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker

HEAVY SUPPORT
XV88 Broadside Team (x3) - 285 Points
Advanced Stabilisation System
Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, Hard-Wired Target Lock
+Shield Drones (x2)

Hammerhead Gunship - 180 Points
Railgun, Smart Missile System, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, Target Lock

Hammerhead Gunship - 180 Points
Railgun, Smart Missile System, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, Target Lock

TOTAL: 1998

I like the list (though personally I do not like kroot but they have their uses), however I feel you are not taking advantage of all your markerlights with a plethora of seeker missles. They change your marker lights in the fire warrior squads into missle launchers which aint bad and bring some more anti tank to the table

[Closet_Skeleton]

In this case, I'm paying double cost for being almost unkillable. Mark of Nurgle and Iron Hide makes him T6 W4 with armor save 3+ and invulnerable save 5+.
I think it's much better to survive one more turn then to drop another one, because of the random chance of dropping.

You have to pay almost double the points to give him boosts that have no benefit against power fists, rocket launchers and melta guns and only a mild effect on plasma, massed lasguns and sniper weapons? That's terrible. It only really helps you against autocannons or massed bolter fire. It helps in combat but you're already an I5 monstrous creature so only wyches and genestealers should be a problem there.

Mark of Tzeentch sounds better.

Flamers are good at shooting. They're just too good for their own good and nobody ever lets them live beyond the turn they deep strike (where they kill double their points in marines easily anyway).

[Irbis]

You know, as much as people say Spees Mareens take all the spotlight in WH40K, this forum seems to hate them

[Sila Prirode]

You have to pay almost double the points to give him boosts that have no benefit against power fists, rocket launchers and melta guns and only a mild effect on plasma, massed lasguns and sniper weapons? That's terrible. It only really helps you against autocannons or massed bolter fire. It helps in combat but you're already an I5 monstrous creature so only wyches and genestealers should be a problem there.

Mark of Tzeentch sounds better.

Thing is, how do you expect to kill it with power weapon? It still has 4 wounds on it, and can kill at least 2 or 3 units in melee before they hit with their power weapon. And as for rocket launcher and melta guns, that's what Fiends are for. Move and assault at 18 inches is more then enough to rip apart the unit which packs that kind of punch, and I can survive a round pounding on Daemon Prince.

Flamers are good at shooting. They're just too good for their own good and nobody ever lets them live beyond the turn they deep strike (where they kill double their points in marines easily anyway).

I played a bit with them, and yes, they always get stomped on, so I switched to other units (Fiends in this case).

[Timberwolf]

You know, as much as people say Spees Mareens take all the spotlight in WH40K, this forum seems to hate them

Really ? There's a fair few people who play them, especially among the more vocal posters.

[sircarp]

I'd like to try in a few days

So, I went to GW looking for paint-test Terminator IC character for my army. Sadly, the only one I like was that Chaplain, which would be difficult to use as anything else. When I was delibersating, some guy caught me and offered to sell SW bits he didn't need claiming I could make better character out of these. Sorry for picture quality, I know it sucks.

The whole thing looked good, until I got home... and noticed torso doesn't fit legs, sword and axe have no arms, and a few pieces had small scratches (I wonder if the paint will cover these)

So, I wonder now if that whole thing was worth it, and I'd like suggestions how to salvage this. I'll probably buy a few bits online to cover the lacks, but which ones? Suggestions? Do Chaos terminator parts fit loyalist parts? I was thinking about power maul and the torso with golden bands (without 'arrows').

Or should I ask in different thread?

That's really weird. I've got that combination of torso and legs on one of my terminators and it went together fine. The sword should be able to go on the arm that fits the storm shield, if it isn't perfect you can fill the gaps with some green stuff. The pauldrons you have won't play well with the cloak, but you should be able to use everything except the frost axe and cloak.

[crazedloon]

Thing is, how do you expect to kill it with power weapon? It still has 4 wounds on it, and can kill at least 2 or 3 units in melee before they hit with their power weapon. And as for rocket launcher and melta guns, that's what Fiends are for. Move and assault at 18 inches is more then enough to rip apart the unit which packs that kind of punch, and I can survive a round pounding on Daemon Prince.

4 wounds aint that many wounds. Devistator squad packs 4 missles hits with 2.666 wounding 2.22 times and you save .7 wounds. This math means that a little over 2 squads kills your boy the turn he hits the table. That means turn 1 you best have deep struck well and survived with your fiends, and that is provided you have not failed to roll the correct half of your army.

Mark of Tzeench on the other hand means that it takes 4 squads to reliably kill your boy (due to the better reliable save) and the loss in toughness is only noticed vs small arms where the higher save is better. It also keeps him cheaper

[Irbis]

Really ? There's a fair few people who play them, especially among the more vocal posters.

Really. I had a list using (besides three extra rules) standard SM units, and got one reply. My modelling question also got one two replies, while Chaos Demon, army that (according to everyone) no one uses has third page of discussion :P

Disclaimer: I don't demand any special attention, but getting reply among the lines 'this is really weird BT army' or 'how dare you read our beginner guides and remember them! we think completely different things than we wrote anyway, and besides, to not turn you into winning noob, we'll recommend worst kind of units to you!' is not really helpful.

That's really weird. I've got that combination of torso and legs on one of my terminators and it went together fine. The sword should be able to go on the arm that fits the storm shield, if it isn't perfect you can fill the gaps with some green stuff. The pauldrons you have won't play well with the cloak, but you should be able to use everything except the frost axe and cloak.

I tried combining it, the chain on the bottom of torso collides with belt/fur on the legs. Only Terminator doing backflips sort of fits.

Yes, the sword can go, but the SS is more important, and I wanted it to go with the axe. *sigh* Is there any cheat source of Terminator arms sans hands?

Pauldrons, yes, I now noticed that as well I'm starting to thing the bits weren't worth that 5£. On the other hand, now I'll have excuse to go free with conversions.

[Sila Prirode]

4 wounds aint that many wounds. Devistator squad packs 4 missles hits with 2.666 wounding 2.22 times and you save .7 wounds. This math means that a little over 2 squads kills your boy the turn he hits the table.

Well, that means that he needs to dedicate around 400 points of his army shooting at the 160 points target, and still it has a chance of surviving. Also, in 1000 points bracket, who brings 2 Devastator squads with Missle Launchers?
Only SM player in our group doesn't even use Missle Launchers.

By the way, sorry I if come of as harsh, it is because I love a good and argumentative criticism, so I get all worked up
Thanks to all that helped, I'm really satisfied with the way you helped me take this army.

[Craftworld]

Hey, with the tourney coming up fast, I thought that I would post another different list to see what advice that I could acquire. This is 1500 points of Eldar, coming up.

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HQ
-Farseer-Doom, Mind War, Singing Spear, Spirit Stones
108 pts
-Autarch-Jetbike, Power Weapon, Mandiblasters
120 pts

Elites
-Striking Scorpians-6, Exarch, Biting Blade, Stalker, Shadowstrike
138 pts
-Howling Banshees-6,Exarch, Mirror Blades, Acrobatic, War Shout
128 pts (in the below WS)
-Wave Serpent-Twin-Linked Bright Lances
135 pts
-Fire Dragons-6, Exarch, Firepike
116 pts (in the below WS)
-Wave Serpent-Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers
120 pts

Troops
-Dire Avengers-10, Exarch, 2 Shurikan Catapults, Bladestorm
-152 pts
-Dire Avengers-10, Exarch, Bladestorm
-147 pts
-Guardian Defenders-10, Eldar Missile Launcher Platform
-100 pts

Fast Attack
-Shining Spears-3, Exarch, Star Lance, Skilled Rider
142 pts

Heavy Support
-War Walker-2 Shurikan Cannons
40 pts
-Night Spinner-Holo Fields
150 pts (Night Spinner is Codex approved even though it came out with Spearhead)
Total:1496 points

Advice/additions welcome.

[crazedloon]

Well, that means that he needs to dedicate around 400 points of his army shooting at the 160 points target, and still it has a chance of surviving. Also, in 1000 points bracket, who brings 2 Devastator squads with Missle Launchers?
Only SM player in our group doesn't even use Missle Launchers.

I will admit that a normal marine player may not bring them along however BA may (in my meta they do) and SW players will (and they bring an extra missle)

the BA only dedicate 260 (2 units)
and SW only dedicate 280 (2 units 5 missles)

So not all that much particularly since their normal targets (tanks) are not on the board, and at 1000 points they are actually strong heavy slots and reasonable at that point value. Also both those armies (BA and SW) will finish him off (the slight more than 2 units) with one of the scoring units packing dual melta.

If we want to break it down as something different than how to kill the big guy, the marine player is getting 2 units for the price of your one (thus the reason it is not to unreasonable to fire 2 units at it)

lets look at the actual load out which makes him over pointed and than compare the other options.

Daemon Prince [210]
Mark of Nurgle - makes him more survivable and harder to kill: toss up one of the better marks but very pricey.

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mark of khorne: a trap, it gives you 1 extra attack (not going to turn the tides of battle) and its gifts (which is the relevant part of the mark) are situational or irrelevant to a MC

Mark of Tzeench: Increase your invulnerable save, as I have pointed out this saves you vs the specialist fire that you will come under. It also has some of the better shooting powers but this kind of guy adds up.

Mark of Slaanesh: Being faster aint so useful (mostly vs eldar) but it gives access to the best of the psychic powers (pavane)

Iron Hide - useful vs "small arms" however most armies pack ap 2 weapons for elite troops. Your army has none so those ap 2 weapons are aimed at this guy negating the usefulness of this

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other options to make yourself harder to kill are ether mark of nurgle (which you have and thus IMHO you are overkilling the unkillable aspect) or mark of Tzeench which is all around better because it is effective vs more things

Noxious Touch - makes you wound more often: but you wound on 2s vs half the armies in the game (t 3 armies) and 3s vs the rest it is a little overkill for this guy.

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the powers chosen should make your guy do something that he can not already do. In this case he can already beat most things in CC and this is over kill. Good powers are Pavane which allows you to move other models or any of the shooting attacks because that is something a prince can not do

Daemonic Flight- you deep strike you should be next to your target and not need the extra speed.

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Flight is not versatile and as I have said you should already be close enough to kill your target. If you want to be able to "increase your own speed" pavane allows it (allowing you to move a unit 2d6" inches closer d6 the turn he comes in and d6 6 the next turn) while still allowing other options like moving devistators to a place they can not draw line of sight without moving or clumping units together for your templates or your opponent closer to other units which can assault

The only ways I would suggest running deamon princes is

Prince [140]
mark of Tzeench, bolt of change
-this guys brings survivability in the form of his mark and another means of attack for the turn he drops which can hit tanks (ap 1 is great for that)

or

Prince [120]
mark of slaanesh, Pavane of Slaanesh
-this guy brings along the power to move other units giving you some tactical advantage as well as the ability to disrupt your opponents game plan

[Craftworld]

You know, as much as people say Spees Mareens take all the spotlight in WH40K, this forum seems to hate them

My friend said something about that not to long ago. Here is the basics of what he said. "If you are ever in a game and you are a non marine player facing a marine player, people will more likely cheer you on."
This in my experience has rang true....Irbis, this may be why your post only got a few replies and the Deamons thing is on its third page...I guess that Non-marine players are just more loved.

[Irbis]

My friend said something about that not to long ago. Here is the basics of what he said. "If you are ever in a game and you are a non marine player facing a marine player, people will more likely cheer you on."

Does that include Chaos Space Marines, IG, Grey Knights and Sisters?

[Craftworld]

Does that include Chaos Space Marines, IG, Grey Knights and Sisters?

When I said "Marines" I meant Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Space Wolves, and Codex: Blood Angels... and maybe Dark Angels but they are more rare (in my experience) but it comes with that they are so common to most people that they want to see some sort of non marine victory. (SW and BA may not truly apply because they aren't as common as Vanillas)

IG are just so small and frail that individually the poor flashlight soldier is seen as an underdog.
CSM are Marines but in a way they aren't because they have split.
Grey Knights and Battle Sisters also suffer from "Not so Common Syndrom" but Grey Knights will probably be drowning in their commoness soon anyway.

[Irbis]

Ah, so that's anti-5th Edition hypocrisy, really

[Partof1]

So, after a semester of basically no progress with my army, in modelling, painting, or playing, I will resart! Huzzah!

So, going back to my CSM, does anyone have any advice for assembling Rhinos? I have them mostly primed and I believe completely filed, so anything I should know before I start gluing?

[Renegade Paladin]

Really. I had a list using (besides three extra rules) standard SM units, and got one reply. My modelling question also got one two replies, while Chaos Demon, army that (according to everyone) no one uses has third page of discussion :P

Well, you probably should have directed your modeling question to the modeling thread, not the play/rules thread.

Speaking of models, I just got done kit-bashing four more meltagun Guardsmen, so you can all stop carrying on about how I need more melta now.

[Klose_the_Sith]

My friend said something about that not to long ago. Here is the basics of what he said. "If you are ever in a game and you are a non marine player facing a marine player, people will more likely cheer you on."
This in my experience has rang true....Irbis, this may be why your post only got a few replies and the Deamons thing is on its third page...I guess that Non-marine players are just more loved.

Sometimes, maybe. It's generally more that people will cheer on the underdog - and that isn't always the Marine. The only time I dealt with people going for the other guys was ages ago when some Dark Eldar loving **** came over and abused me while I played.

I do, however, get a fair bit of support, 'cause my wins are so rare that I'm an underdog

(It's not a matter of bad lists so much as my tendency towards deployment mistakes and bad luck on most units. But meh, I bought a Flamerclad today and soon I'll crush those damn Xenos ).

Speaking of models, I just got done kit-bashing four more meltagun Guardsmen, so you can all stop carrying on about how I need more melta now.

YOU ALWAYZ NEED MOAR DAK-

Oh, right. Carry on sir.

[Renegade Paladin]

YOU ALWAYZ NEED MOAR DAK-

Oh, right. Carry on sir.

Heh. One of them is modeled with a grenade on one hand, a knife held overhead in the other, and the meltagun strapped across his back, but it's on the model.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Thing is, how do you expect to kill it with power weapon? It still has 4 wounds on it, and can kill at least 2 or 3 units in melee before they hit with their power weapon.

Not with 10 man squads. It can kill a maximum of 5 on the charge.

Ony time I thought a daemon prince I only lost to it in melee due to an unlucky roll on my assault marines break test. I easily killed it with my devastators next turn (but lost the battle due to Kairos and Kugath).

And as for rocket launcher and melta guns, that's what Fiends are for. Move and assault at 18 inches is more then enough to rip apart the unit which packs that kind of punch, and I can survive a round pounding on Daemon Prince.

But you're daemons, so there's one turn where you can't do that and will always be open to shooting.

In my experiance I tend to use my rocket launchers to kill clumped up infantry in that turn, but my opponent is often hiding his monstrous creatures behind terrain at that point.

Well, that means that he needs to dedicate around 400 points of his army shooting at the 160 points target, and still it has a chance of surviving. Also, in 1000 points bracket, who brings 2 Devastator squads with Missle Launchers?
Only SM player in our group doesn't even use Missle Launchers.

Two units of devastators is only 260 points. Two exorcists about the same. I don't play much 1000 point games and tend to use two exorcists in 1500 points but only 1 unit of devastators.